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Dennis Taylor
Member
Username: Dtranch
Post Number: 103
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, Jul 16, 2004 - 3:53 pm: |   |
Don't know if this is the proper place to post this question but it looked close. I am often asked what is the purpose of the chestnuts on horses legs. I have heard many theories, but no definitive answer. I was not able to find through the search on this site as well. Some discussions, but no explanation of function. Just curious, and would like to be able to give correct information to my clients when asked.
DT |
Jordana Meisner
Member
Username: Presario
Post Number: 568
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Friday, Jul 16, 2004 - 4:01 pm: | |
No modern function of them. They are thought to be residual "toes" but I've even heard some theories they aren't even that. |
Dennis Taylor
Member
Username: Dtranch
Post Number: 104
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, Jul 16, 2004 - 4:13 pm: | |
Jordana ... that is in line with my knowledge, but you should see the look of disbelief in eyes of students when I give that answer. I have also heard that they may have some function in sweating or cooling, but have seen absolutely nothing to substantiate that.
Thanks
DT |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 10800
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Sunday, Jul 18, 2004 - 8:10 am: | |
Neither have I Dennis and the vestigial reminant of a long past evolved away digit is what I have been told. Point out to them that the knee is truly the "wrist" (carpus) so where the chestnut appears would be just about right for a digit.
I do have another old horseman's tale though: the chestnuts are a horse's night eyes and how he sees in the dark. I occasionally still run into an adult who believes this.
DrO |
Christos Axis
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 431
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, Jul 18, 2004 - 11:03 am: | |
Hi, Dennis, you may find this link interesting:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/horses/ |
Dennis Taylor
Member
Username: Dtranch
Post Number: 105
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, Jul 18, 2004 - 6:59 pm: | |
Christos .. Interesting indeed. They are a marvelous animal wherever they came from. Thanks all for your input. You can always count on this site for info.
DT |
Christine Sizemore
Member
Username: Gingin
Post Number: 76
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Sep 13, 2006 - 7:34 pm: | |
I just found this old post and could not resist....what someone told me once with absolute sincerity is that the chestnuts are the places where the legs of the foal are held together in the womb to make the birth process easy (front legs coming out first, you know)....supposedly told to this adult rider by his trainer....I did not have the heart to counter with the left-over digit hypothesis..... |
Shelley
Member
Username: Sswiley
Post Number: 241
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, Sep 13, 2006 - 10:24 pm: | |
Christine.
So what are the ergots for.
PS. love your profile picture.
Georgous horse !! |
Holly Wood
Member
Username: Hwood
Post Number: 1433
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, Sep 13, 2006 - 10:55 pm: | |
"Residual toes" is the common explanation I have heard. Also, I have heard that the chestnut is like a fingerprint . . . each horse can be identified by his chestnutprint . . . no two alike.
I am skeptical of the residual toe theory though because I have read research that the primitive horse is related to cavies . . . and that the theory of a three-toed primitive horse is only that . . . a theory. (I'll try to find that bit of research . . . I have the book somewhere in my school materials.)
In either case, I have noticed that horses often scratch their faces, clean their eyes, etc. using their chestnuts . . . so however they originated, they serve a useful purpose on our horses today.
Now . . . The ergots . . . hmmmmmm . . . some horses have itty-bitty ones and others have thick, ugly ones . . . They are a mystery . . . and serve to remind me that mankind doesn't have all the answers. |
Sharon
Member
Username: Shanson
Post Number: 37
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, Sep 13, 2006 - 11:16 pm: | |
Speaking of chestnuts, I've noticed a few horses whose chestnuts grow to a pretty prominent size...really sticking out. I'm thinking of a Paso Fino with chestnuts that stick out 1/2 or 3/4 inch. Pretty wierd looking. Is this an individual horse thing, or breed thing? And, are you supposed to do anything about it? |
Holly Wood
Member
Username: Hwood
Post Number: 1434
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, Sep 13, 2006 - 11:38 pm: | |
Yeah, they really do grow differently on different horses. Some chestnuts are small and others are really long and wide. Most horses I've encountered seem to grow chestnuts that peel off in layers, but I have met a couple, my dun Criollo in particular, whose chestnuts grow like stalks . . . and split apart and break off in pieces.
I've found that coating overgrown chestnuts with vaseline softens them and makes them very easy to peel or break off the next day and avoids creating discomfort for the horse. |
DJ
Member
Username: Djws
Post Number: 181
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 - 12:53 am: | |
Biv's (Standardbred) chestnuts get thick (up to 1/2 inch). His also break off in pieces (at times). I use A&D ointment on them-same concept as the vaseline. It helps! He also scratches, etc. there...never thought about him using his chestnuts-figured he was just using his knee-thanks for the insight.
Hollywood, what a gorgeous picture on your profile! |
Fran C
Member
Username: Canter
Post Number: 641
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 - 7:52 am: | |
Sharon, I think if left alone, the chestnuts will grow that thick. However, I've seen two horses that have torn off the chestnuts while out at pasture (they had been left to grow), creating a bloody mess and I would imagine, the possibility of infection. Most people I know keep them "maintained" to reduce the chance of tearing.
I've always wondered what the ergots were (once)for...DrO? |
Erika L
Member
Username: Erika
Post Number: 441
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 - 8:25 am: | |
Well, if the chestnuts are toe left-overs, maybe the ergots are leftover "pads" like from the bottom of a dog or cat foot? |
Aleta Overby
Member
Username: Aletao
Post Number: 7
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 - 8:30 am: | |
Back to Dr. O's explanation & using a little comparative anatomy, we need to realize that the knee of the horse (carpus) is analogous to the human wrist. As we have 5 metacarpal bones as we move from our wrist to our fingers, in theory (and comparative anatomy), the horse has as well. You may be familiar with the cannon bone being referred to as 3M or the third metacarpal. Well, what happened to the other four metacarpals? Two are splint bones, one is a chestnut and the other the ergot.
That's the story I've been told over and again and I'll stick with it until something else changes my mind!  |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose
Post Number: 1680
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 - 9:57 am: | |
I've never heard that horses were related to cavies, but have heard or read they were related to tapers. Are tapers related to cavies? Suppose anyone really knows, or can they tell these things now with DNA? |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 16610
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 - 10:59 am: | |
Although in one way or another we are related to all animals, cavies (Guinea Pigs) are in the order Rodentia which puts them a good distance away from horses in the mammalian evolutionary tree. Tapirs and horses are both in the order Perissodactyla, along with Rhinos, which puts them much closer related than rodents.
DrO |
Sullivan's Cutting Horses
Member
Username: Sully
Post Number: 68
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 - 2:24 pm: | |
This has been interesting. I only know that my horses have them and if I help peel one off, they cannot smell it enough....even if its not theirs! Heard somewhere that if you keep one in your shirt pocket, it is easier to catch a horse in pasture. Alas, I have few t-shirts...none that I can think of that have that pocket anymore(whats up with that...they all used to have them) so have not been able to "test" this theory.
Sully |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose
Post Number: 1683
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 - 2:38 pm: | |
Thank you, Dr. O! You learn all kinds of things here. |
Christine Sizemore
Member
Username: Gingin
Post Number: 77
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 - 2:43 pm: | |
Thanks Shelly for the compliment...she is indeed the most awesome horse!!
Now on the issue of smelling things, your of another "smelling" issue I have not been able to figure out....I often have the side of my face and my ear sniffed intensely by horses...now I don't wear perfume, hairspray or skin lotion and usually do not have anything with perfume on me...and I don't think I have smelly ears  ...so has anyone else have this happen to them???
Christine |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose
Post Number: 1685
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 - 7:53 pm: | |
Oh My, Yes! I can barely get the stalls cleaned unless I throw the horses out. The entire time I'm cleaning they are sniffing my head and hair. They don't sniff my ears so much, but one of our cats does. She wakes me up with her whiskers tickling me. (Actually, I think she's trying to find my ear plugs which she likes to play with.) I just assume the horses are trying to get attention. |
Dawson
Member
Username: Dawson
Post Number: 35
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Monday, Sep 25, 2006 - 7:42 pm: | |
Here goes......... I heard the chestnuts were scent glands. When horses fight/strike out they used to rub the chestnuts on the other horse to show dominance. When I was little a man I figured had to at least 100years old.told me to always peel off and rub my hands with the chestnut from the stallion or most dominant mare. The horse I'd be working with would except me as a herd member and leader. Does it work.... I dunno, I just do it in case the old man was right. |
Larry Allen
Member
Username: Drlarry
Post Number: 17
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, Sep 28, 2006 - 12:17 pm: | |
Okay - here're the stories *I've* heard!!
I've heard of the "vestigial digit" idea, and it sure does fit the spot. I dunno tho - you have to buy into the evolution theory in order for it to work. I more believe the scent gland ideas. Horses sure do rub their faces on their chestnuts, and I've heard of people who always kept a chestnut in their pocket, or who'll rub one all over their shirt - eliminating the NEED for pockets!!
And mineral oil also works to soften a chestnut in order to remove it - IF you want to! I've seen them long like a stump, but I sure like the soft, flat look AND feel better. Cleaner.
As for the ergot, I always thought it made sense that they direct rainwater off the ankle - tho I don't know why that would be important!
I love this sort of "legend" stuff. *We think we're so smart!*
But, "We'll never be as smart as the guy who designed the horse!" |
Holly Wood
Member
Username: Hwood
Post Number: 1479
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, Sep 28, 2006 - 1:03 pm: | |
Yes, Dr.Larry, I've heard the same about the ergots . . . or at least the feathers that extend past the ergots. In a clinic several years ago, a young New Zealand girl was teaching us a grooming lesson for her certification requirements, and when she got to the grooming of the legs, she said, "and, of course, we NEVER trim the fetlock hairs because they help rain run away from the hoof." Since I don't trim my horses for show purposes, it doesn't crimp my style to leave those fetlock hairs alone . . . but I've often wondered if we do our horses a disservice by trimming all their whiskers and long hairs . . . I guess as long as we trim keep them close at hand and sheltered, it doesn't cause harm, but if they are out in the weather and in pasture at night, I would think that feeler hairs and leg hairs might be good protection. |
Vicki Zaneis
Member
Username: Vickiann
Post Number: 377
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, Sep 28, 2006 - 8:36 pm: | |
I believe it IS a disservice to trim away feeler whiskers. I will not take them off around my horses eyes (every time I have I've ended up with a scar around the eye due to injury). I may shorten or remove some on the muzzle, but leave most. My boys are at liberty in a very large pasture area with trees. They may need those whiskers just as a cat does. One of my horses and I also do performance riding, and I have read removing those whiskers makes the horse feel disoriented. A bit of trimming is one thing, but I never remove them entirely. I trim away some of the fetlock feathers but also leave some to allow the water to drain away just as from a leaf designed by nature to drain water drops. |
ilona armoni
Member
Username: Ilona
Post Number: 261
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, Sep 29, 2006 - 12:04 am: | |
I can't remember which book I gathered this from, may well have been "The natural horse", anyway, I learned that whiskers are a very important sensory device for the horse especially in discriminating feed. The softer blades of grass versus the coarser textures that do not bend as easily. This apparently gives the horse information as to what is potentially toxic versus non-toxic, sweet versus bitter etc. In addition the whiskers too provided 'line-of-sight' information for distance and angle assessment. I have been rigorous in protecting my horses whiskers and now personally find a whisker-less horse odd to my eye. I know in many competitive communities these are trimmed much the way a man shaves, as close as possible. |
