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Discussion on What causes poor conformantion?
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 22, 2009 - 10:43 am:
I had a very interesting conversation last night with a trimmer who works on a few of my clients' horses. She has just started working on a 10 year old Hanoverian who is very crooked in front, severely toed in for a number of conformational reasons IMO (will try to post pictures soon). He got a severe 'corrective' trim from another trimmer I posted about a few months ago which took 8 weeks for him to recover from (was so lame I had to carry food and water to him for days), so I asked this person to be extremely conservative and just trim to his natural angles.
Her opinion is that all conformation problems are caused by a combination of bad trims and the horse being kept in the wrong environment. She also feels that all conformation problems can be fixed with corrective trimming, even on older horses.
My opinion is that while poor trimming and environment can certainly exacerbate conformation problems, once the horse has stopped growing it is better to not try to change them. A crooked horse is a crooked horse, and while you can help them work with what they have you aren't going to fix their underlying issues.
This is why you can take a group of horses who are getting the same kind of care and living in the same environment, and some will always wear their feet evenly and some will always wear unevenly.
Keep in mind I'm talking about from the hoof up .. I know the hoof capsule is quite flexible and can change radically over the course of only a few trims. I'm also a big fan of corrective trimming on young, growing horses, but think there is a point where it doesn't work.
The horse in question for example has his LF cannon bone set to the outside of the knee. I think no amount of corrective trimming at this point is going to bring that bone back under to where it is in line with the joint.
While I am always open to new ideas and think it would be wonderful if she could work a miracle on this horse, I'm worried that by trying to change him she's going to cause him more harm than good.
I would appreciate your opinions and experiences on the subject.
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Member:
shanson
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 22, 2009 - 11:09 am:
This "trimmer" is talking nonsense and, personally, I would be very skeptical of his/her competence. Put another way, I wouldn't allow this person to touch my horses' feet.
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 22, 2009 - 1:27 pm:
Shannon
It sounds like the 'trimmer' got her head on crooked...maybe she can trim that???
Just kiddin
Seriously, yikes tho
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 22, 2009 - 2:29 pm:
LOL!
I am really trying to keep an open mind here, just, as they say, not so open that my brains fall out.
She does a really nice job on the other two horses she trims who are both quite correct and straight naturally. She's also very patient and is a good handler. I wouldn't want her working on my horses though.
Part of the problem in this case is the horse's owner is pretty green and wants me to tell her what to do. I want her to do research and decide for herself, though I am happy to give my opinion.
The horse in question is also a pill and neither of the two farriers who I work with will touch him unless he gets some better manners. But the owner doesn't have the skill to train him herself or the $ to pay someone else. He's a lot better than he was when he first came to us, but a long way from good.
Oh the joy of boarding horses....
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Member:
canderso
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 22, 2009 - 4:14 pm:
Shannon!! There is a huge difference between keeping an open mind and listening to absolute nonsense.
You DO know that trimmer is speaking nonsense, don't you?. Putting aside anything scientific or anything accepted by trained, professional, certified farriers... if this statement was even remotely true, then after the thousands of years we have been trimming horse's feet, do you not think we would have figured out how to fix everything by now?
I would be extremely cautious about using someone who makes statements like that - maybe she does a good job with the horses she does now, but her lack of knowledge and understanding of what farriery is really about is jaw DrOpping. I shiver to think of what she might try!
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Member:
jojo15
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 22, 2009 - 4:46 pm:
Bad breeding combinations will go further to a bad conformation i think than poor trimming. now granted you have a great breeding pair, and all things being equal producing a truly stellar conformation offspring, then i would think that poor trimming and bad environment can surely create in that horse some poor outcomes in growth and then issues that could be conformation related. but how does one know which is it? almost like an egg or chicken debate.
to be so convinced in one or the other is a red flag this person is not interested in anothers view.
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 22, 2009 - 4:58 pm:
Yeah as above.
Perhaps you could talk to the owner about balance and alignment.
Possible show the owner how a 'proper trim' that is out of alignment with the rest of the leg will actually put more strain on the limb and joints.
You are in a difficult position.
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 22, 2009 - 5:26 pm:
Thanks guys, I was walking around the house last night muttering to myself 'is she nuts?! or have I really missed something here?' Sometimes when something is so far out of left field it makes me scratch my head.
It doesn't help that I already fired the last person to work on this horse (the one that severely lamed him) against his owners wishes, basically saying she was not welcome back on my property. This was after I spoke to the trimmer about what she did, and she told me it was normal for the horse to be so lame from her corrective trim.
I have tried to educate the horse's owner by having her look at all our other horses legs and the variations in confirmation, and how they are trimmed to meet the individual's needs, but it honestly just goes over her head at this point.
I think the next thing that would help would be specific cases, studies, etc that show the potential damage that could be done to this horse. Any ideas?
The trimmer is telling her that she can totally 'fix' this horse, which is of course what she wants to hear. It can be hard to argue with the promise of a miracle when someone doesn't know any better.
Thanks again guys, you are awesome 
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 22, 2009 - 5:34 pm:
Did the owner see how lame the last "miracle trim" made the horse?
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 22, 2009 - 6:05 pm:
Unfortunately she didn't make it back out to see him for probably two weeks afterward. At that point all the swelling in his legs had gone down and he was able to walk again, albeit gimpily and on bute.
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Member:
jojo15
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 22, 2009 - 6:24 pm:
only thought i have is can you get your vet involved? Preferably a leg expert? maybe this horse has some muscle contraction from years of poor trims. but one trim is not going to solve it. i would say years worth of slow changes. Laming a horse is never the answer. Though a few outside the norm barefoot trimmers are very aggressive in their trims. Personally i think its language misinterpretation. Strasser proponents really believe in her work. i do too to an extent her theories and her application is important to studies. but i really do think it gets lost alot in translation. There is no reason to lame a horse with a trim. outside of a total resection type of procedure.
I'd love to see pictures of this guy.
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Member:
shanson
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 22, 2009 - 9:49 pm:
Did the horse have a lameness issue prior to being butchered by the trimmer you fired?
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Member:
hollyw
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 22, 2009 - 9:55 pm:
I've never heard anyone quite so confidently propose that trimming is able to correct poor conformation. Add to that the fact that this farrier has done good work on other horses and is good at handling them, and I can see how it gives you pause . . .
In discussing this with friend and Certified Farrier, David Lee Archer, this is what he said:
"In talking with Doctor Cannon who is one of the top leg vets in the county (He worked on Settle Slew's legs) we had this talk about how once a horse's joints are set they are set; you can't change them. The fetlocks set first, then the knees. Fetlocks usually set by the time they are a year old. So, if they are crooked, if you don't get on them by the time they are year old, it is too late.
Here in California one of the problems I see is they try to make the hoof too big. It is the mind-set: more hoof, better for the horse. Well, it isn't the case. To make a bigger hoof you have to leave more toe.
Why not just trim the horse for its conformation and hoof size and leave it at that? Heck, I was taught how to trim a balanced foot by the farrier I worked with at thirteen; it isn't new. Oh, I forget . . . everything that is old common sense is new now . . . and they give it a fancy name . . . lol."
Pictures of the horse would be great, just to get an idea of what this farrier believes she can change with her trims.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jan 23, 2009 - 10:50 am:
I LOVE IT: "A mind so open that the brains fall out" and it will become a regular part of my vocabulary.
The problem here is that there are many types of conformational issues:- Muscoskeletal in origin and can be corrected by trimming during the early growth stages. These are primarily mild to moderate angular deformities of the lower leg.
- Muscoskeletal in origin and cannot or should not be corrected by trimming at any time. This would include angular deformities of older horses, moderate to severe angular deformities of foals, flexural deformities.oderate to severe d and
- Created by poor trimming and correctable by trimming at anytime. Poor medial-lateral balance of the foot can cause both angular and rotational deformities of the lower leg and correctable.
So when discussing the question it is important to know exactly what kind of deformity and the age of the horse and the statement that "all deformities correctable by trimming" false and suggests a lack of experience to me.
DrO
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Friday, Jan 23, 2009 - 2:13 pm:
I think this person's 100% declaration was what put me off more than anything. Had she said 'in this case we might be able to help him because x, y and z' it might have been a different conversation. I don't consider myself a hoof or confirmation expert by any means, but any time someone says 'always' to me I think they must be full of it.
I am going to share your responses with his owner just so she has some additional perspective; I really do appreciate all the feedback.
I couldn't get mr. stinky to stand for me for photos last night but am posting a couple below from last fall and one of his front legs from straight on from yesterday. Certainly not good confirmation shots but the best I can do for right now.
From what I can see, in his RF the pastern looks to be set at an angle pointing in from the fetlock down. On his LF, the cannon bone looks set too far to the outside of the knee so the 'twist' that results in his toe-in on that side starts just under the knee. Neither of these things shows very well in the photo due to the angle and the fact that he's fuzzy and filthy!
These things are most apparent when he's walking towards you; when the limbs aren't loaded you can see how they hang down at an angle rather than hanging straight. I will try to get a shot of that to post.
He doesn't usually stand as parked out as he is in a couple of the shots, he was just excited.
Finally Sharon to answer your question this horse has had on-and-off lameness problems his whole life. When he first came to us he was ouchy (I was told he had just been trimmed) but by the end of that month (and the morning before he was butchered) he was galloping happily around the pasture jumping over things for sport. He was trimmed at 10am and by 2pm when I checked on him his lower legs had blown up and he refused to move. It literally put me in tears to see him go so drastically backwards after watching him gradually improve to the point where he could move freely.
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Friday, Jan 23, 2009 - 3:12 pm:
Wow.
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Member:
warthog
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Posted on Friday, Jan 23, 2009 - 3:23 pm:
eeeeewww he makes me cringe.
I'll share two things. I have a friend who was "slew footed" or toed out as a preteen. Nothing short of surgery would help her walk straight and in her late 60's she is still slew footed - but she's sound. :-)
I have an extremely inbred mare who is very upright - one foot more than the other. I took her heels down a bit thinking it was probably not good for them to be quite so high. She went dead lame for a couple of weeks. I then talked to her previous owner. Her daughter was kept trimmed heals too low and she stayed lame and foundered regularly and had her tendons cut some to reduce the tension on them - deep flexor I think - and the owner had to put her down she remained so painful. After making the error of lowering her heals once I've left our mare with her very high heels, one higher than the other, for 9 years and she's totally sound to this day. I also noticed from photos of her ancestors and cousins that they are also quite upright. Any trim that lames a sound horse is a bad trim unless there is a REALLY good reason to do it and I haven't seen one yet that I considered a good reason.
One more I remembered. We used to trail ride with this 28 year old TW. He was awesome and totally sound. He had slipper front feet - not excessively long toes but they were longer than most people like. His owner said he went dead lame if his toes were taken back even though his angles weren't changed. If it works - why change it??? He died at 31 - still sound though.
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Friday, Jan 23, 2009 - 3:41 pm:
EXACTLY! If a horse is sound, why try to change them? One of my own (took him on as a pity case) is as crooked as a stick: toes in on both front though nothing like the horse above, has a grade 1 club foot on his RF, LF tends toward long toe/low heel, and windswept behind. And he is TOTALLY SOUND, good hard bare feet. So long as he is sound no way am I going to try to change him. I trim him about every 2 weeks to keep the heel of the club foot from getting too far out of whack and keep the toe of the other from migrating forward, but other than I just trim to his normal shape.
I was pointing my 'problem horse' out to this trimmer and she started shaking her head saying 'the first thing I would do is cut down the heel on that club foot, that was caused by poor hoof care'. I pointed out that his dam and 3 of his siblings all had that same upright RF, all being cared for by different people in different environments. To me, that says congenital deformity. To her, it's a coincidence.
BTW, I am toed-out too and while I'm no star athlete I'm quite sound for moderate hacking
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Jan 23, 2009 - 3:57 pm:
It's been two years now that I've been doing my own trimming on 4 horses, and one thing I never got caught up on was "this angle, this heel height" I read, and listen to many views, but I don't believe every horse should have low heels like a mustang, or that every horse can have the concave foot. Maybe I'll retrack that statement in a year or two as I am still (and always will be) learning. I've had hoof guys who were going to "Fix" things, and others who said "that's the hoof the horse has, you can't change it at this late of date."
And any changes, even to just level out an uneven hoof wall, should be done gradually.
My humble opinion.
BTW, the horse looks happy and all, considering his conformation troubles. He don't think he has any problems!
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Friday, Jan 23, 2009 - 5:12 pm:
Old Timmy who died last year had to periodically put up with trimmers who wanted to "fix" his clubby feet.
He made it well into his thirties without a lame step. Sometimes it was with exhasperation that I would politely decline their suggestions on corrective trims.
Corrective trimming is the new Chiropractic, I think.
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Member:
jojo15
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Posted on Friday, Jan 23, 2009 - 5:16 pm:
wow pretty horse. cept for this one thing. now how can a trimmer correct a shoulder/knee in on that left front like that? it truly looks like this is shoulder and the whole skeletal is rotated in placing the shoulder out. i really don't see how trimming is going to realign bone. Outside my experience. If horse was mine and i wanted to get to the bottom of it i would surely get xrays of the whole leg. both legs.
The right front though from knee down i do wonder if you can trim to correct the way he is so deep over on the right side of the hoof. but again, i wouldn't do a durn thing without a vet.
Horse is sound? happy? good and fun to ride? in this economy and my budget i would just leave it be and use him for a hacking horse. But anything more and i worry on the stress of what he can and can't handle in terms of jumping or dressage. even barrels i wouldn't use him on.
good luck with him he seems like such a sweet horse. and likely is. as aren't all less than perfect animals the one so willing to please.
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Friday, Jan 23, 2009 - 5:32 pm:
Erika!!
You mean corrective trimming cant cure ear infections???
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Friday, Jan 23, 2009 - 6:01 pm:
My husband said something to the effect of 'do you think if she trims my toenails she can make my ! bigger?' Don't tell him I told you though ;)
This is a pretty sweet horse aside from his in your face nature which is slowly diminishing. He was a walk-over-you type at first and now is respecting my space much better. He is quite happy to be put in his place and will follow you around like a pup once you establish that you're boss.
His owner wants to do light trail riding with him which I think he will be fine with (if we don't mess with his legs too much) since he is out to pasture 24/7 with a very active herd and varied terrain and doing fine. He does seem to love to jump as he will do it for his own entertainment in the pasture, but I don't think it's in the cards for him.
I guess he was purchased as as an eventing prospect, had some early training, then was dumped into a stall at 3 years old and ignored for the next 6 years. I think part of why his owner wants to believe that he is fixable is that he DID have crappy care for the last 6 years. And in her mind, why would anyone buy a crooked horse as an eventing prospect.
Of course the logical next thought should be 'if he was correct and sound why was he dumped at 3..."
One thing I am glad for: his owner's MAIN goal for him and why she took him on in the first place was to get him the heck out of the stall and give him a chance at having a life, even if it meant he would never be rideable at all. Her heart is sure in the right place.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Jan 23, 2009 - 10:17 pm:
Ya but chiropractic CAN cure ear infections, right?
And seriously, adjusting my skull fixes my earache..but that's another story you'd never believe.
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