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cp
Member
Username: Cpacer
Post Number: 252
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 10:39 am: |   |
My horse has lost some weight over the past few months so I am thinking of adding a flake or 2 of alfalfa to his diet. The local feed store has recommended a weight builder supplement, the barn owner has recommended beet pulp, and we haven’t heard from my vet yet. Can anyone tell me which would be best?
He currently has 24-hour access to fescue hay and sparse grass, and gets 2lbs of Omolene 100 sweet feed twice a day (contains not less than 10% crude protein, 4.5% fat, not more than 6% fiber).
I saw in the article something about too much calcium in alfalfa if fed with hard feed. Is that anything to worry about if we go that route? Omolene already has between .6% and .9% calcium in it. It also already has vegetable oil in it, so I’m wondering if supplementing additional corn oil (3 oz 2x daily) would be a bad idea?
Any advice appreciated! |
cp
Member
Username: Cpacer
Post Number: 253
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 11:14 am: | |
The barn owner talked to our vet and he said not to feed the alfalfa cause it has too much protein, and just recommended corn oil and maybe beet pulp. Does that sound like a good plan? I don't remember seeing beet pulp on the plumping up list, but maybe I just missed it.
What would be a good amount to give in additon to the 2 lbs of sweet feed and corn oil twice a day? |
Holly Wood
Member
Username: Hwood
Post Number: 1581
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 11:24 am: | |
Oil is a great way to go . . . start out with just a 1/4 cup per feeding . . . and I don't think you'd need the beet pulp, but if you feed it, you still have to be sure that you don't get the calcium/phosphorus ratio out of balance. There have been several other discussions about feeding beet pulp and balancing it with bran, and I think you'll find extra help there. |
Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66
Post Number: 1470
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 2:41 pm: | |
Another vote for corn oil, and if you need an extra boost, I've heard cocosoya oil is great.
Good luck! |
Terri
Member
Username: Terrilyn
Post Number: 427
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 3:59 pm: | |
I recently had to put about 75-100 lbs on my TB. When he got to my barn from the track, he was racing fit and on the thin side. I wasn't having much luck with the 10% fat/10% protein and corn oil regimen I put him on, so I bumped up to Triple Crown Senior Feed, a 10% fat, 14% protein feed and added Weightbuilder to that, but left off the corn oil. That did the trick. He began picking up weight noticeably faster on the Senior Feed, but the biggest difference seemed to be with the Weight Builder. I couldn't get him to eat beet pulp. I'm now feeding Equitech 10 (10 fat, 10 protein) and have switched from Weightbuilder to Horseshine (feed both my guys this supplement), and that seems to be maintaining the weight very well. This is in addition to all the good quality grass hay he can eat. Good luck! This nearly drove me crazy until I found the right combo. |
Terri
Member
Username: Terrilyn
Post Number: 428
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 4:01 pm: | |
Oh, and it was two heaping scoops on the feed, twice a day. (Regular barn scoops you buy at the tack/feed store.) |
Kthorse
Member
Username: Kthorse
Post Number: 701
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 6:32 pm: | |
1 cup of envision think thats the name, puts weight on mine in winter. Its cheaper than weight builder etc. Its a feed suppliment that comes in large feed bags so it lasts ages. Its I think 35 % fat 12 % protein |
cp
Member
Username: Cpacer
Post Number: 254
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 7:59 pm: | |
Wow, thank you everyone for all the advice! Started on the corn oil today, and found out the vet actually said a little alfalfa would be okay.
If this doesn't work then I'll try some of these other great suggestions. Anyone know how long it might take to know if it's working? Don't know if this is crazy, but think I'll cut riding down to weekends only so he doesn't expend so many calories (is that stupid?). |
Holly Wood
Member
Username: Hwood
Post Number: 1582
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 9:41 pm: | |
cp, in my experience, it takes about 3 weeks before I can see a difference, but if you want to chart your progress, take weekly photos or use a weight tape to see the weekly gain. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 17102
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2006 - 7:16 am: | |
Hello cp, you really do not provide enough information for the best way to supplement your diet. For instance if your grass hay is not excellent quality the diet could use a protein bump that alfalfa gives. In the article on Nutrition Overview offers recommendations for putting weight on a horse based on the existing feeding regimen.
DrO |
cp
Member
Username: Cpacer
Post Number: 255
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2006 - 7:46 am: | |
None of the other horses on the same hay have lost weight--that's about as scientific as I've gotten on a hay eval.
So when using the weight tape, do you take the heart girth or a girth measurement? There aren't any instructions on the tape I have and it's around a 50lb difference. I have to measure again but I think the last 'girth' measurement said he only weighs 760 lbs, he's just under 15 hands. He was closer to 850 earlier in the summer.
What about cutting down on exercise? Is that a good idea or bad idea?
I'll read the article again to see if I can figure out what's lacking. |
Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66
Post Number: 1472
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2006 - 10:42 am: | |
I think it's the heart girth. I haven't read Dr. O's article lately, but my vet has me put the tape around his barrel, then move it to the top of the withers and just behind his front legs and measure there.
Take into account, that my horse is an easy keeper, but in order to keep weight off him, I need to exercise him more...so I think your thought of less riding makes some sense. Especially since he has 24 hour turnout... I think it also depends on what you do with him and how often you usually ride and how hard the work is that you ask him to do... |
Holly Wood
Member
Username: Hwood
Post Number: 1583
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2006 - 3:49 pm: | |
cp, if you just want to see if the horse's weight is changing, it really doesn't matter where around the girth you measure as long as you pick the same spot each time. Aileen is correct about measuring over the withers, but there is still some leeway there, so if your horse has a distinguishing feature on its main or withers or barrel, that will help you position the tape the same way each time. |
Hally
Member
Username: Hally
Post Number: 85
Registered: 7-2006
| | Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2006 - 4:03 pm: | |
I know this sounds obvious but have you checked teeth and do you have a good worming program going?
The articles I have read on horse nutrition say that the excess protein in Alfalfa hay will just be excreted out in the urine. Also I have fed beet pulp and 2.5 cups of oil a day to my gelding for 4 yrs and certainly there have been no side effects. As a matter of fact he looks awesome. Corn oil is just a great way to get weight on horses. Its safe and you get a lovely coat to boot! |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 17106
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2006 - 5:47 pm: | |
cp, horses differ in their requirements to maintain condition so the good condition of the others does not guarantee a nutritional profile suitable for the one losing weight. In fact the loss of weight tells us exactly that. The same article referenced above describes judging hay quality and as long as appropriate changes are made I do not see a reason for decreasing exercise.
Most weight tapes will give directions on how to use them so I would first see if there are instructions on the particular tape. Remember it is the horse's condition that is important.
DrO |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 17107
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2006 - 6:09 pm: | |
The question Hally is whether the alfalfa represents excess protein or not. If the horse is consuming a diet of medium quality hay (8% protein) the total dietary protein may be deficient. For instance if the horse is eating 25 lbs dry matter a day the diet needs about 1/2 lb extra protein which is about what 2 or 3 lbs of alfalfa daily will provide. Beet pulp is marginally sufficient in protein and oil has no protein at all. Also alfalfa is rich in minerals and vitamins. If the dietary protein does exceed the amino acid requirements of the horse the excess protein is not excreted but used to make energy. A lb of protein has about the same metabolic energy (that available to the horse) as carbohydrate. Fats and oil certainly have a place in equine nutrition but are not necessarily the first thing one should reach for, the total diet needs to be considered first, for more see the nutrition overview article.
DrO |
Hally
Member
Username: Hally
Post Number: 87
Registered: 7-2006
| | Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2006 - 6:15 pm: | |
Dr O,
I was told that if the horses urine is of a thick consistency and is very yellow, that that is the protein being flushed from the body? |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 17112
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Saturday, Nov 18, 2006 - 8:07 am: | |
No, excess dietary protein is a important source of energy for all animals and a regular part of the energy production cycle. Once processed the main metabolite is ammonia which the liver converts to urea which is excreted. The thickness and cloudiness of some horses urine is usually the calcium salts being excreted and the yellow are the plant pigments and perhaps some hormone metabolites. Both of these do increase when alfalfa is fed and you will find more on this subject at, Diseases of Horses » Urinary System » Normal Urination in Horses.
DrO |
cp
Member
Username: Cpacer
Post Number: 256
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, Nov 19, 2006 - 10:09 am: | |
Thanks again everyone. I'll take regular measurements around his belly and see how it goes. I'm pretty sure DrO's article said to measure behind the wither, but I get the point either way. The last round of hay the barn got was dusty, and he's lost weight during this time of the year before, in fact I got him 2-years ago this month and he looked like a wet rat then.
In response to teeth and worming -- yes, he gets many vet checks (I'm sure my vet thinks I'm a worried mother). But speaking of worming DrO, I want to start on the HA recommended program the first of the year. Can you tell me if I should start on the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd cylce/year of your program from the one I'm currently on? (it's in my profile). |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 17120
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Monday, Nov 20, 2006 - 7:53 am: | |
You can start anywhere cp but best would be a product you used infrequently the last year of two so, looking at your current program, I would begin with moxidectin.
DrO |
cp
Member
Username: Cpacer
Post Number: 260
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Monday, Dec 4, 2006 - 9:41 am: | |
DrO, what is your take on Pro Biotic products? Is liquid better than powder?
I've been keeping weekly measurements and my horse has lost some more weight. We started adding corn oil and alfalfa hay to his diet about 3 weeks ago, so I would have thought he'd at least be the same, but not less.
I think I'll be trading out the alfalfa for beet pulp since that seems to be the most widely recommended item. I've also been advised to cut back on the Omolene and get him onto Dry Cob or Rolled Oats instead (don't even know if I can get these)??
This is so frustrating because I get so many different opinions, and I'm not seasoned enough to know what's best, and don't want to keep switching stuff around. I need a good feeding plan to get him on permanently, starting with all the fescue (hay and pasture) he can eat, the fact that he can't eat pellets, and go from there. Please, please, we need help. |
cindy O'DELL
Member
Username: Zarr
Post Number: 149
Registered: 6-2000
| | Posted on Monday, Dec 4, 2006 - 4:43 pm: | |
cp, have a gelding that had trouble with gas colic my vet said try pro biotics so we did and it has helped a great deal Also use it after shots to rebalance gut flora and even if big weather change is due. It has been very effective for us. My husband also uses it with his racing pigeons ??!! Just top dress. Good luck Cindy |
Linda S.
Member
Username: Banthony
Post Number: 199
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Dec 5, 2006 - 9:54 am: | |
CP, I have mentioned this product before as we had spectacular results with a yearling colt we could not get weight on and he was on grain and corn oil. EQUINERGY-PALM OIL.
We got samples that were given to another farm - you'd have to go to their web site and give them a call to order. |
Cheryl Kallenbach
Member
Username: Cheryl
Post Number: 240
Registered: 2-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, Dec 5, 2006 - 10:51 am: | |
Linda - I ran a search for the web site - came up with palm oil but nothing for equinergy - do you have the web site addy? Would be interested in this for my mare.
Thanks,
Cheryl |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 17209
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, Dec 5, 2006 - 8:49 pm: | |
Hello cp,
For information on probiotics see Horse Care » Equine Nutrition, Feeds, & Feeding » Probiotics and Yeast Culture Products.
DrO |
Linda S.
Member
Username: Banthony
Post Number: 201
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Dec 6, 2006 - 8:49 am: | |
Cheryl,
I am trying to find the tub to see what the address of the web site is. Also, I have emailed them and await their reply. Will get back to you as soon as I know. |
Cheryl Kallenbach
Member
Username: Cheryl
Post Number: 242
Registered: 2-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Dec 6, 2006 - 9:10 am: | |
Thank you, Linda - really appreciate it.
CK |
Linda S.
Member
Username: Banthony
Post Number: 202
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Dec 6, 2006 - 12:27 pm: | |
Cheryl,
I just heard back from them. They have setup a website on Ebay.
http://stores.ebay.com/EQUINERGY
It doesn't seem like you can order off the website. Try 1-800-569-0241 EXT 81 |
Cheryl Kallenbach
Member
Username: Cheryl
Post Number: 243
Registered: 2-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Dec 6, 2006 - 2:46 pm: | |
Thanks a lot, Linda - I'll check out the web now and give them a call.
Ck |
Shawna
Member
Username: Qh4me
Post Number: 221
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, Dec 6, 2006 - 3:07 pm: | |
Hi CP,
I just changed my feeding program and am now using Dac products. I know many people who are using them and have had great luck and swear by them. Everyone who has switched to them, have never switched back. They have something for every need.
I was impressed with how helpful they were. I had hay and oat analasys done and faxed the info to them and they gave me a complete program for each of my horses, depending on needs. Bob, the owner was extremely helpful and could answer any questions I had. Personally, I find nutrition so complicated at times, that it was nice to talk to someone that was willing to answer even my dumbest questions.
I have had my horses on it for 4 weeks now and am extremely happy. All of them (from my 26 year old geriatric, my broodmare, my 3 year old wobbler to my 7 month old colt) are doing extremely well.
I feed alfalfa hay and the rolled oats, which is what they recommend when feeding their products.
Check them out if interested, I am sure you will find them very helpful.
www.feeddac.com |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 17217
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 7:11 am: | |
EQUINERGY is simply a vegetable oil supplement so should be comparison shopped based on cost per unit basis and because these types oils are susceptible to oxidative spoilage I find that bulk oil for human consumption from warehouse like stores to be very competitively priced and most likely fresher.
DrO |
Cheryl Kallenbach
Member
Username: Cheryl
Post Number: 244
Registered: 2-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 7:37 am: | |
Thanks, Dr. O - I took one look at the cost per day and decided I would stick with the Canola Oil -
CK |
Linda S.
Member
Username: Banthony
Post Number: 203
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 8:41 am: | |
The reason I liked the product so much was that we had the colt on 2 quarts of sweet feed, 2 oz corn oil twice a day - plus all the mixed alfalfa hay he would eat. We didn't want to feed a yearling any more concentrates, yet he still looked ribby.
This product put weight on him so fast and effortlessly that I became a believer. |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose
Post Number: 1891
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 10:50 am: | |
Cheryl, you can get either soy or corn oil, maybe even the Canola Oil, at places like COSTCO for approx. $11 for a huge container. I think it's 2 gal. container, but am not sure. |
Cheryl Kallenbach
Member
Username: Cheryl
Post Number: 247
Registered: 2-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 11:13 am: | |
Thanks, Sara - I've got her on Canola Oil which we get at COSTCO - it's cheaper than the corn oil which really surprised me. It is working - she has filled in a little along her back - taped at 888 a few months ago and Monday taped at 930 - YEA ! ! !
CK |
Erika L
Member
Username: Erika
Post Number: 586
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 12:30 pm: | |
CP, I wonder if I missed something? Is this the eight year old in your profile? Just wondering if you've talked to your vet about his weight loss? Could be something besides a food issue going on here. Again, sorry if I missed some other info. |
cp
Member
Username: Cpacer
Post Number: 261
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 3:43 pm: | |
Yep, that’s him, the one and only. Had a vet check in September along with teeth, and am having a dentist see him this month too (just to be sure). He is a naturally thin boy and definitely far from some of those poor malnourished horses out there, but I don’t like it when I can feel his ribs.
I really appreciate all the ideas coming through too (sure are a lot of products out there), along with all the advice I’m getting locally my head is spinning! I’ve been reading through all the articles on the site over and over, have been taking diligent notes, even charting all the various ideas I’ve been getting to see where they stand on recommended amounts of fat, protein, fiber, and vitamins in the articles and I keep coming back to the same conclusion -- alfalfa & corn oil. Can I just get a yay or “neigh” if I’m on the right track? If I am then I’m going to stick with it for a few more weeks and hope it starts working.
We just increased the additions so his daily meals now amount to: grazing in the pasture, 4 flakes of fescue, 1 flake of alfalfa, 4 lbs of Omolene 100 (corn & oats), 1 cup of corn oil – all split into 2 feedings. Am I on track??? Someone told me it was the equivalent of jelly donuts, but based on what I’ve read I don’t think I agree (except maybe the small amount of molasses in the sweet feed and all the carrots he gets). The one thing that sticks out at me is the high calcium levels of all these things. What is the concern with too much calcium? Please let me know if I’m completely wrong, or what I’m missing. Would this diet add to overall bulk or just belly weight?
As far as energy is concerned, when work is increased or the weather cools I’m assuming no adjustments would need to be made to above diet since he doesn’t even eat all the hay he gets now? Or what would I add? |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose
Post Number: 1900
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 4:40 pm: | |
This just makes me smile. I'm constantly struggling to keep my horses' weights down!  |
cp
Member
Username: Cpacer
Post Number: 262
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 5:46 pm: | |
Sara, somehow I don't think I'd want to trade situations, but we'll see if the tables turn once I get to bring him home this Spring--I have a very nice pasture of grass developing for him and a of couple friends. |
Shelley
Member
Username: Sswiley
Post Number: 300
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, Dec 8, 2006 - 12:26 pm: | |
I find a handful of bran is an excellent way to balance the excess calcium with some phosphorus. |
Erika L
Member
Username: Erika
Post Number: 589
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, Dec 8, 2006 - 3:30 pm: | |
CP, after re-reading the entire post I now see what you're talking about.
Sounds to me that Dr. O thought the alfalfa was a good addition to the diet. If he likes it and eats it up well, perhaps you could give him a little more alfalfa, and a little less of the hay he doesn't really relish. I wouldn't worry about too much protein. It won't hurt him, just make his stall a little stinkier if he's peeing out the excess.
Think of it this way, if you are filled up with lettuce, there isn't much room in your stomach for that fattening stuff! The lettuce in this case would be the hay. The alfalfa and grains are more fattening.
Also, am I correct that Omolene 100 is a "complete" food? If so, you could probably increase the amount without problem, too. They are called "concentrates" because the calories are more concentrated, so they won't fill him up before he's had sufficient calories.
You do have that beautiful pasture preparing for him! You might yet find yourself with the rest of us on the "fatties" page once he is on it. |
cp
Member
Username: Cpacer
Post Number: 263
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Friday, Dec 8, 2006 - 3:58 pm: | |
Thanks Erika, just needed some reassurment I guess.
Shelley, I think the Calc/Phos are balanced it just seems there is so much of both in everything, especially calcium. So if you take all the percentages of the variety of foods, I'm wondering if you can end up with too much. |
cp
Member
Username: Cpacer
Post Number: 264
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Friday, Dec 8, 2006 - 4:11 pm: | |
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