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MaryS
Member
Username: chip
Post Number: 50
Registered: 11-2000
| | Posted on Monday, Mar 26, 2007 - 6:36 pm: |   |
I’ve been thinking about (and actually started plans for) doing something and I’d sure like to get some input from those of you who may have experience in managing your own farms, and especially in hay making.
My situation: 30 ac property, south central PA, 25 ac corn (last year) converting to pasture (this spring). I’ve done soil samples, talked w/ Ag extension people, read Dr. O's pgs, and am trying to hire out lime, weed spray, no-till drill seeding. I'm planning Timothy – no clover. This could be used for hay, would allow for broadleaf weed control if needed, and I don’t care about summer productivity (ie clover) right now.
I think I can get this all hired out (not certain though). I live about 45 min from the property and hope to build a home and move there in about 2010. In the meantime, I’d like to get pasture started and plant trees (in the fall).
Potential near-term problem:
Don’t have need of the pasture/hay right now – so I’ll need to have someone else harvest and bale. I’m not interested in making any great money on it – but I’m starting to wonder if I can even find anyone to do it at their own cost (they get to keep the hay). Local dairy farmers don’t seem interested in hay (esp. Timothy). Local horse farms don't have the equipment to pursue this, they usually buy it already made.
Potential longer-term problem (or opportunity?):
After I move, I don’t plan more than 4 horses, so I’ll have ample rotational grazing and then some. I may over-seed w/ clover if needed for warm season grazing. I had this tinny thought about possibly trying to market a premium quality timothy to local horse farms (limited land, expensive horses, willing to buy top quality hay for performance horses). I’m not sure if this is realistic, or a pipe-dream – it’s just an idea at present. I guess if worst comes to worst, I could mow it and not harvest it at all ... and just plant more and more in trees (I wouldn’t mind having a portion of the property mature into a nice wooded area).
I know I'm lucky to have more land than I may need - but I don't want to subdivide, and even though I'm fortunate - I still need to make rational plans to have the best outcome possible. I don't like poor planing or wastefulness if it can be avoided. Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
What do you think about planning a native grass instead of Timothy? Reasons – lower yield and therefore less concerns about mowing and harvesting. But wow – seed for native grasses is very expensive!
Just let stay in corn and rent it to a farmer until I move? Do you think I’m out too far ahead of myself – considering a 2010 move date?
Do you market hay to horse farms (local or distant)? If so, can you tell me a bit about how you do it. Logistics, what’s important to your customers, etc.
Thanks,
MaryS |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose
Post Number: 2480
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Monday, Mar 26, 2007 - 10:58 pm: | |
We have about 30 ac. in a grass hay mix and another 10 in a pasture mix of several grasses and a little clover. We have a fellow with horses who cuts and bales it and splits the crop with us. We each pick up our own hay. Where we live we usually get 3 cuttings a season. In a bad year only 2, and in a really good year, 4.
We worked out a deal with our friend because he's been growing hay forever and where we live you need a lot of experience to bale and cure the hay properly, especially a grass mix. It's quite an art. Where you are, you get a lot more rain than we do so I would think hay growing would be easier, but it seems like the cutting and baling would be harder due to the rain. If grass hay is difficult to find in your area, though, it would be worth the effort to have it, imo. If it's easy to find, having good pasture is great. The number of horses you have plays into the picture, too.
Doing the hay ourselves and selling to other horse people just isn't worth the time and effort for what we could get for it around here. Although with all the building going on, that may change in the future.
It takes a while to establish a good hay field out here. Your climate is so different though. When I've been back east it seems like stuff grows overnight! |
Imogen Bertin
Member
Username: imogen
Post Number: 927
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Mar 27, 2007 - 2:44 am: | |
I look after an average of 6 horses on about 15 acres and we take one crop of hay off about 5 acres of that - of which most goes to the landowner, I keep about 250 small bales out of around 750. Around 3 acres is steep valley partial scrub only suitable for grazing.
It is actually quite difficult to do the rotation etc. to provide suitable grazing all year round and close off the land for the hay.
I would not dream of trying to do the hay myself - you have to be an ace weather forecaster, a brill mechanic for the square baler machine, and prepared to work all hours. If our contractor ever gives up I am not sure what we will do.
Even here in Ireland it is hard to find people to do this work and we are a pasture nation.
What is done here that you might want to look into if you are going the "quality" route is small bale wrapped horse haylage. This commands a premium and is sold through co-op stores. You can buy small bale wrappers and these bales are suitable for small horse owners who cannot manage round bales or large bales.
Wish I had 30 acres of horse suitable land of my own!
Imogen |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18095
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, Mar 27, 2007 - 8:30 am: | |
I think it takes a good 2 years to build a solid sod with cool season grasses MaryS. I would start now.
DrO |
jos
Member
Username: paardex
Post Number: 216
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, Mar 27, 2007 - 2:19 pm: | |
Imogen, I would like to know six horses on 15 acres: big horses, young ones? Do you need to use fertilizer?
I am trying to get a clear picture what I can do with my20 acres in Normandie. Only horses or do you have sheep to? and do they stay out during the winter?
Sorry a bit beside the point but I would like to know.
Jos |
Erika L
Member
Username: erika
Post Number: 779
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, Mar 27, 2007 - 5:41 pm: | |
MaryS, it is so nice to be able to think about grass again, isn't it?
I am in NW New Jersey with 40 acres of hay, and about ten in pasture with mostly native grasses (we overseed every few years when it looks patchy). I have three horses.
The pastures get mowed, mowed, mowed...because there is usually much more than they can eat, at least until the real heat of the summer when it slows down again. This year I didn't start feeding hay until December!
I pay another horse owner to lime and fertilize the pastures when they need it. Only every few years because then we just mow more! It is pricey, though, and I do it so the horses have good pasture. It would be cheaper to feed them hay, for sure.
The big hay field is fertilized, limed, and cut by a local farmer. We don't pay him, but he keeps the hay. In exchange he keeps it in farmland asessment (lower taxes)and does all the paperwork necessary to document. He makes very little on the hay, and wouldn't do it if he didn't keep it. We also purchase a hundred fifty bales from him for winter use--at regular price.
My point is, you will want to have nice pastures for the sake of your horses--and Dr. O is right, let it get going as soon as possible or the horses will tear it right up. As for hay, I wouldn't bother unless you need it for the taxes. But then if you have corn you are already farming it. You won't make any significant money even on "gourmet hay". It's a high volume, low profit business. |
Imogen Bertin
Member
Username: imogen
Post Number: 928
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 - 2:19 am: | |
Hi Jos
Yes, our climates should be similar but perhaps we are warmer here as we are very close to the sea.
We fertilise with 10:10:20 mixture to bring on the grass earlier in the spring, and in the autumn to extend the growing season (like Sarah I don't start feeding hay until mid-December and usually have them back on grass by mid-March).
I have one recently reseeded field with clover in and one without (because the seed merchant forgot to include it...) so now I am testing which is better (the clover field has to be spot weeded with a handsprayer).
These would be 6 full size horses. The usual rule of thumb is 2 acres for the first horse and then 1 acre thereafter but because we also take hay for the landowner to sell, and some of the land is not very productive (valley) then you need more.
20 acres in Normandy! How beautiful! What price is pasture land now in France? Here the prices are ridiculous, about 30,000 euros per acre. And that is for agricultural land with no possibility of permission to build a house... so I am lucky to have pasture I can rent beside my house.
Best wishes
Imogen |
jos
Member
Username: paardex
Post Number: 217
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 - 7:23 am: | |
Hi Imogen, you'd better relocate! Farming land is under 10000 euros [often around7000] and I choose a rather 'expensive' place at the edge of a forest [national monument and thus guarded against building etc. and at a suitable distance from Paris[I thought this a good choice if ever I wanted to sell again]
But the real horseproperties[businesses] are located a little further away from the tourist sites and even cheaper! Possibilities to build over here take time but are amazing[to someone from a place with the same prices and rules as yours]
Anyway your answer made me realise that my idea to have to good broodmares and keep some of the young ones until ridden is not impossible on this acreage.
Thanks
Jos
PS If ever you want to visit or inform yourself over the possibilities over here you are welcome to my little gueststudio. |
Ann Schrichte
Member
Username: annes
Post Number: 167
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 - 12:07 pm: | |
In NW TN we have cattle farmers who are always looking for more land to graze their cattle and/or cut for hay. I have someone who cuts my fields 2 times a year for hay. (around 60 acres) He square bales enough for my 3 horses and round rolls the rest for his cattle. He will lime and fertilize, help keep fences fixed and clear fallen limbs/trees. I know two other people who are interested if my guy ever quits. I would not want the expense of having to bale the hay myself. I would buy hay before going to the expense of purchasing all the equipment. We have a tractor and bushhog but not balers, rakes, rollers, etc. Just doing the maintenance/repair of all the equipment is a major headache and expense. Someone with many horses might feel differently, but with only 3, this works well for me. |
Imogen Bertin
Member
Username: imogen
Post Number: 930
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 - 2:24 am: | |
Jos - 10000 per hectare or per acre...? if it's per hectare please book me in for the guest studio immediately! I feel sure I could revive my school French with a little intensive language training... but perhaps it's best to wait for the results of the election to see which way France will go, the country is really at a crossroads at the moment I feel.
Ann - what is a bushhog? I feel sure I need one just from the name...
Best wishes
Imogen |
jos
Member
Username: paardex
Post Number: 220
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 - 4:11 am: | |
Imogen,7000-10000 per hectare.AND in Normandy English is not that uncommon a language [they invaded and got threwn out for ages] how do you think I got by the first year . The French tell me all seems to be at a standstill for the past 6 months regarding to the selling of houses properties and businesses and this seems always to be the case over here they expect everything to pick up after elections but less fast according to which way they go.[Like in Normandie property prices rose 10% a year]
So get into the studio!
This bushhog sounds as some kind of animal I cannot do without.
Jos |
jos
Member
Username: paardex
Post Number: 222
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 - 4:32 am: | |
As I seem to have drifted of the subject and am sure this is not of much interest to other people I wouldn't mind emailing directly with you to avoid misusing this site as a way to promote 'la belle france'
Jos |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18119
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 - 7:35 am: | |
Let me help with the "Bushhog". It is a brand of pasture clipper here in the US that is so popular it has become synonymous with the term pasture clipper.
DrO |
CherylA
Member
Username: canderso
Post Number: 353
Registered: 3-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 - 8:25 am: | |
Hi Mary,
I have been keeping quiet here as I am only learning myself. But if I have learned one thing -it is if you want a hay field you must cut it at a minimum of at least once a year. If you don't, you will get invasive growth of weeds and/or brush (I am in constant battle with buckthorn).
Good luck!
Cheryl |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose
Post Number: 2499
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 - 10:59 am: | |
jos and Imogen, I love hearing about France, and day to day life in other countries especially as it pertains to horses.
Ann and those other with bush-hogs; What make do you have? How big? Are you happy with it? We are finally selling our ancient Kubota and getting a new tractor. We also need a new bush-hog; ours is as old as the tractor (close to 30) and even with new blades no longer cuts very good. |
Ann S
Member
Username: annes
Post Number: 168
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 - 11:20 am: | |
Sara, We currently have a Woods bush hog which is 7' wide. It is very heavy duty and we are very happy with it. We had a John Deere for years which was 5'. The two extra feet really made a difference in saving time.
Ann Schrichte |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose
Post Number: 2501
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 - 12:32 pm: | |
Ann, does it run with a PTO connection? If not, where does it get its power? I assume it has a 3 point hitch so is towed only by the tractor? Our old one is also a 5' and while it makes it really easy to turn and get into corners, I'd like a bigger one so can do the fields faster.
Just found my husband ordered a cab on the tractor! He'll probably want a little tiny bush-hog so he can sit in his cab, turn on his "tunes" and "hide out" all afternoon! |
Ann S
Member
Username: annes
Post Number: 169
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 - 1:07 pm: | |
Yes, it has the PTO connection and is only pulled by the tractor. My husband is getting pretty fast hooking it up. It never fails that while the bush hog is attached, he will need to take it off to use the post hole digger or the hay spear. Also, our current tractor has a front end loader bucket on the front and I don't know how we ever lived without that. My non-horsey friends can't believe I get more excited about farm equipment than going to the mall. |
Wanda Martinez
Member
Username: sonoita
Post Number: 210
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 - 1:59 pm: | |
Ann, I have the same problem. Never fails when it is hooked up to the mowing deck I need it for dragging. Mine is a pain to get on and off. Heavy too.
Sounds like I need a cab too. And lets not forget the tunes. |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose
Post Number: 2504
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 - 3:49 pm: | |
I wish someone would come up with a quick change system for these things. We have the same problem. Usually it's the post hole digger that's on the back when I need to spread manure.
And Ann, I LOVE looking at tractors and equipment! The only things better are looking at new trucks, trailers and horses.
Best birthday present I've received was my manure spreader! A good friend of mine was all excited because she got a septic tank for her barn for Christmas! (This means she can have a little bathroom out there.) |
Ann S
Member
Username: annes
Post Number: 170
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 - 4:03 pm: | |
Last year I got my husband to build a new 4-board fence behind the horse barn by telling him it could be my birthday, anniversary & Christmas present! Boy, did he get busy....I enjoy it every time I go to the barn and the best present he could have given me. |
Kathy J. Clymer
Member
Username: tweeter
Post Number: 26
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 - 7:55 pm: | |
I just have to chime in on this one. About 10 yrs ago when my horse herd became larger my cart behind the little tractor was not doing the trick so for my x-mas present my hubby gave me a nice new shiny red manure spreader with matching 4 wheeler to pull it. It was ground driven so we did not need PTO even thought it was a 50 bushel. Well my friends though I was nuts to be soooo happy to get a manure spreader and not diamonds! I would still rather get equipment...this x-mas it was a new weeder whacker...so much fun to play with new toys |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose
Post Number: 2507
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 - 11:04 pm: | |
My husband thinks I'm a little odd, so I had to get him and show him this thread...now he thinks we're all a little odd! However, he'd much rather buy equipment than jewelry. He gets to use the equipment, too, and he'd look "a little odd" running around in my jewelry! |
Imogen Bertin
Member
Username: imogen
Post Number: 931
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, Mar 30, 2007 - 3:23 am: | |
I would say one of the most important things that has kept me and my partner together for so long (23 years) is that we like solving heavyweight house/hobbyfarm problems together.
Last week the frame on the roller fell apart. Now if I was a high income north American no doubt I'd buy a new one and I'd enjoy that.
But what pleases us (fortunately) is to buy metal (galvanised strong scrap 3 inch channel from the tops of electricity poles), use our wits to work out how to get the roller sections back together on the axel, lift the frame back to the house with the tractor, cut it up, re-weld it and remake it stronger.
Total cost about 80 euros. I think it comes from being brought up in harder times than people experience now. I do sometimes wonder how the Celtic Tiger's cubs who would never dream of fixing anything will cope with any serious economic crisis.
Now if I could just get him to do that design for the replacement leaking office window that I've been after for the past 3 years...
Best wishes
Imogen (no I'm not mean really... and I love machinery shopping when I can afford it) |
jos
Member
Username: paardex
Post Number: 223
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Friday, Mar 30, 2007 - 3:56 am: | |
Have you ever tried changing the equipment when you never before have owned even a garden tractor with the help of an old french farmer speaking VERY local french?
The first months I was sooo happy with my 'farmingequipment' the local french watched me behind the trees amazed at the number of times I tried to clip nonexisting gras.
I was sooo proud when the postman called me 'Madame Fermiere'[farmer]
Jos |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose
Post Number: 2514
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Mar 30, 2007 - 4:20 am: | |
Imogen, my husband is a genius when it comes to fixing things. The three of you would have a grand time together. My skills are limited to what can be done with baling wire and duct tape and a few screws since I can't weld. It is amazing what ingenuity can do however. |
Imogen Bertin
Member
Username: imogen
Post Number: 933
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, Mar 31, 2007 - 3:45 am: | |
Madame Fermiere - I shall address you as such in future Jos!
I am lucky that one of my neighbours, Lilian, who is also a horse-owner, was the star student at agricultural college and won the welding prize and can drive a tractor better than most of the men, so the neighbours do not think that I am odd in comparison to Lilian.
We also have a special class in the annual local ploughing competition which is called the "Farmerette" class. I have not dared to enter it yet but I may if I can get someone to teach me to plough...
But I think we should all bear in mind that we are just pottering enjoying ourselves mostly whereas real farming is in some crisis at the moment at least in Europe, and times are really changing a lot. Most of the old small farms are going and being replaced by much larger units and this will be an increasing trend with globalisation. I hope that France will resist the trend, which is why I am getting more interested in Normandy!
Imogen |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose
Post Number: 2525
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, Mar 31, 2007 - 10:36 am: | |
Like many Americans I think of cities when I think of France. When I watch the Tour de France I'm always so impressed with the beautiful countryside.
Farmers in this country have it rough also. I have many relatives who are farmers, and they all have to work off the farm, or their wives have to, in order to support themselves. Big corporations, many of them foreign, are buying up the small farms. Also, the growing population and migration of people from urban to less urban areas is causing the loss of farmland. The farmers, or their children, can get a lot more money selling the land than they can farming it We could have a very long discussion on this as it involves government programs and subsidees, as you mention, globalisation, free market, etc. etc. But sometimes it seems like the farmer, like the rancher, is an endangered species whose habitat is being destroyed just like that of so many other dangerous species.
btw - I LOVE the term "Madame Fermiere!" |
jos
Member
Username: paardex
Post Number: 225
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, Apr 1, 2007 - 7:32 am: | |
The only thing which is really Dutch in me is my love for farming I think. Holland has really dedicated highly qualified farmers but not much space so all of you must have met one time or another a dutch farmer fled to a country with more possibilities.
At the moment they go to France to [especially dairy farmers] but more to the north then where I am. Big farms otherwise they will not survive. The French of course do the same thing: two or three farms together and a viable farm is created.
But in my opinion it is a shame the oldfashioned farms with a little bit of everything disappear, they were not only businesses but a way of life. In my region the scale is small so a lot of the farms will not survive and are bought by Parisiens or English [or Dutch]people who buy horses and amuse themselves with other animals[like me].
The thing which amazed me most was the reaction of the people over here they do not say: another foreigner to make our houses and ground more expensive. They react: nice you are staying the whole year, you will help keep the country side alive. They always are eager to explain how their parents used to farm, show me the way how to handle my fruittrees tell me what livestock does best on this soil[AND how you can eat them!]
Help me to chickens of old races who still get broody instead of just producing loads of not very good eggs.
France being french a load of recipies accompany the animals but as long as you do not comment on THEM eating their animals they even accept vegetarians and stay polite with recipies for fruit and vegetables.I hate the idea that the old traditions will disappear but I fear they will. At the moment Normandy still has a load of little specialized farms with for instance ducks or free ranging pigs everyone has a cousin for the yearly lamb in the refrigerator, an enormous amount of different sorts of potatoes[all for different types of cooking] strawberries, oldfashioned tomatoes and everyone seems to make his or her own 'confiture' and 'sirop' and some even apple or pear cidre.
I am glad I live to see all of this and hope my holiday in the US will show me a part of this life over there too so we can compare!
Sara I will bring you a book telling about 'old Normandy countryside' in september it will make a perfect present for you.
Jos
PS Please anyone share the ways of your countryside like Sara and Imogen I love to read these posts. |
Erika L
Member
Username: erika
Post Number: 790
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, Apr 1, 2007 - 10:21 am: | |
That is beautiful, Jos. Be careful, or you'll have all of us moving to Normandy!
You asked about other member's areas: People find it hard to believe that New Jersey is farm country too. (We are the Garden State, after all!) Our area is pretty rural, still. You can still find a handful of natural beef farmers, and plenty of free range chickens for sale from the local small farms. I'd say every mile or so is a cooler of eggs set out by the driveway to sell by the honor system.
A few friends of ours raise all their own meat. And Genesis Farm is an organic food coop that sells organic produce to members who both pay for membership, and help in the garden. Plenty of seasonal farmer's markets for great local fruits and vegetables.
I'm sure it isn't as exotic sounding to our American ears, but small farming is alive and well in New Jersey!
Just made myself hungry... |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose
Post Number: 2531
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, Apr 1, 2007 - 5:47 pm: | |
Our new tractor is coming tomorrow! Yippee! And, Lonnie won't be home until tomorrow night, so I get to drive it first! Maybe I can even get the pasture reseeded before he come home if it is delivered in time. I can at least drive it around and listen to Tunes while I look like I'm working! Wonder if it can get XM or has a hook up for the ipod? Sure hope Lonnie likes it when it drives it; I've got a long list waiting for him! |
jos
Member
Username: paardex
Post Number: 226
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Monday, Apr 2, 2007 - 3:46 pm: | |
Did you have fun with your new toy Sara?
Jos |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose
Post Number: 2540
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Monday, Apr 2, 2007 - 5:28 pm: | |
It's 3:30p.m. here and it hasn't come yet! I'm bummed. I was just trying to find the dealer's number so I can call and see what's up. Here I thought I could be driving it around all day and rework a field and seed before Lonnie go home. |
