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Terri
Member
Username: terrilyn
Post Number: 500
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Apr 19, 2007 - 12:54 pm: |   |
I have a coming 4 TB gelding who has all of a sudden begun lifting his tail all the time, when standing, when walking, when eating...pretty much at any time during any activity....he is not producing gas, and is not going to the bathroom. Any reason for a horse to do this? Is he trying to relieve pressure in his back somewhere? He does have an itchy tail head...could that be related? He has a history of pain in the sacra iliac region. I've never had one do this before... |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18288
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Saturday, Apr 21, 2007 - 9:17 am: | |
I would bet on the pruritis (itchiness) but it is just a guess. Do you know why the tail is itchy?
DrO |
Melissa Boschwitz
Member
Username: amara
Post Number: 285
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, Apr 21, 2007 - 2:24 pm: | |
prob. itchiness like Dr. O said, BUT... one of our drafts started doing this-for no reason at all, and then (over a period of several weeks) he started acting like his gut was uncomfortable... we started treating him for ulcers and the tail went back to normal... a little while ago when he had a flare up the tail went back up, but went right back down as soon as we treated his flareup.. dont know if it helps, or if our draft was just really weird!
good luck! |
Michelle Atkeisson
Member
Username: cmatexas
Post Number: 38
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, Apr 21, 2007 - 11:10 pm: | |
Our mare did that, started last October occasionally, and progressed until it was always crooked. Then her gaits got a little rough. We took her to the chiropractor, and he had to put it back in place. It sounded like a gunshot!!!! But, tail was fixed immediately, and her ride is back to awesome. Just an idea. (I NEVER believed that "junk" would work, but we found a guy here that is a real miracle worker. We went to 2 others that were useless, but he has fixed several sore spots on our horses) |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18300
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Sunday, Apr 22, 2007 - 9:37 pm: | |
Hello Michelle,
What did the chiropracter believe to be the problem and what did he to fix it?
DrO |
Michelle Atkeisson
Member
Username: cmatexas
Post Number: 40
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, Apr 22, 2007 - 10:39 pm: | |
Honestly, he thought she was having ovary problems, not tail/back problems, b/c he didn't find any sore spots around the base of her tail or up her spine. But, when he gave it a pretty good tug, just to prove to us it wasn't a problem, it popped back into place. Sounded HORRIBLE!!! But it's back straight now. Said in all his years, he had seen horses who carried their tails off to the side as a sign of back problems, but never actually saw a tail itself out of place. Tail is straight now, and she has smoothed back out. We never found any other sore spots in her back, just a very rough ride and a little cranky during saddling. She is an old Western Pleasure horse that is usually smooth as glass. Wish we'd had a video of it! |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18312
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Monday, Apr 23, 2007 - 9:00 am: | |
All right everyone, give those crooked tails a pretty good tug before you do anything else, it is cheap and offers a fast remedy but please be careful you do not get kicked!
Seriously I am uncertain what happened with Michele's horse. A subluxated caudal vertebrae would be very painful and a fairly easy diagnosis (one I have never seen nor read about) so what they were looking at? There are both surgeries (cutting the tendons) and procedures (alcohol blocks) used on the tail which can cause transient or permanent disfigurement certainly muscle spasms are possible. Hmmm...is it possible such a spasm could be corrected by pulling straight back on the tail....yes it is possible and have a pop, much as your knuckles would pop, from the vertebral facets too.
DrO |
Terri
Member
Username: terrilyn
Post Number: 501
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Monday, Apr 23, 2007 - 9:26 am: | |
Thank you for the input...I haven't checked mail so am just catching up with these posts. Dr. O, not sure what's causing the itchiness...seems to be a yearly thing. Had problems with it last spring as well. Rubs all the time...I have looked for crawling things but don't see any. Maybe I should try some Gold Bond powder? (Haven't dealt with this health issue before with my other horses.) He is super sensitive to bites, though...will break out in welts that look like hives when bitten. He nailed me yesterday kicking at flies...it was the first day they were really biting. He just loses his mind...I've never observed a horse this sensitive to biting insects!
Over the weekend, the indidence of tail lifting seemed to decrease...I'll try treating him for the itching problem and see if that fixes it completely.
Also, he did seem a little "off" on the day I noticed it the most...left his feed, stood with head down for a few minutes, went back and finished...whatever it was resolved itself. Thanks...will keep all the above in mind. |
Michelle Atkeisson
Member
Username: cmatexas
Post Number: 42
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Monday, Apr 23, 2007 - 9:55 am: | |
Terri - been there, done that with the severe fly allergies. Check out Overview of Hair Loss and Skin Irritation. Took a trip to A&M to get it under control, but it is working.
Dr. O - in this part of Texas, Equine Chiropractic care is not unusual with all the ropers and cutting horses around here. That being said, we don't ever really tell anyone we use a chiropractor for the horses. He is also an excellent farrier, and an great source for information on horse nutrition. He literally works from the feet up, and the inside out, to fix problems, and we have had undeniable success with him. But.......the science teacher in me is always skeptical. We took our horse with a very sore back to 2 other chiropractors on the advice of more experienced horse persons, and wasted several hundred dollars for nothing but a good horse massage and quack advice. So, Terri, be VERY careful before you let someone twist and pop your horse. I would hate for someone to get a horse hurt, or even just waste good money. After I posted our experience, I thought maybe it might be better to not share that idea. I'm not sure what or who is available in other parts of the country.  |
Terri
Member
Username: terrilyn
Post Number: 502
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Monday, Apr 23, 2007 - 12:19 pm: | |
Michelle, thanks for the guidance. Jules is a product of a very happy chiro experience. I got him off the track last spring, sore in the hips. Took him to an excellent vet/chiro doc who adjusted him twice (talk about pops!!!) over a 6-week period. He has been pain free since then, but am thinking I may take him in the next few months just for good measure. I had no opinion on chiro/acupuncunture before that experience. However, the doc explained what the problem was (thought he had gotten out of whack possibly from getting run into from behind or falling backwards hard) after performing a lameness exam, addressed it through adjustment and acupuncture, and the horse has been markedly improved since. I am a believer. It really, really has made a difference. |
Melissa Boschwitz
Member
Username: amara
Post Number: 286
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Monday, Apr 23, 2007 - 10:00 pm: | |
michelle, where in texas are you?
i recently had a chiro out to work on one of my horses... i've had very good success with very good chiro's... this guy was a doc before he became chiro...wish i'd taken pictures because there was a visible (positive) change in the shape of my horse's hips after he was done...he also said a few tail stretches would be a good idea... of course, he also recommends a good roll in a sandy area!...talk about cheap chiro!... |
Michelle Atkeisson
Member
Username: cmatexas
Post Number: 43
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, Apr 24, 2007 - 8:43 am: | |
Melissa - we are just down the interstate from you in Fairfield!! Our chiro, Ross, is in New Summerfield. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18321
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, Apr 24, 2007 - 9:15 am: | |
Hello Everyone,
Equine chiropractic is not a well developed veterinary science and has some specialized diagnostics and procedures that have little in the way of science to support them. Without radiography it should be noted there is no similarity to human medicine.
There have been reported benefits in specific cases to chiropractic but I believe the best description of equine chiropractic adjustment at this time should be looked at as deep massage. Melissa, I must say there is nothing in the horse that can be manually adjusted to "change the shape of the hips". The horse may have stood differently but the idea of adjusting the shape of the hips or even relation of the hips to the rest of the horse is just not anatomically feasible, other than the possible effect of causing swelling in the soft tissues.
I have been watching chiropractics for over 20 years. I have worked for upper level hunter and dressage barns that in the pusuit of the ever better score or placment that have had chiropractics in and out sometimes adjusting 20 plus horses at a time. Critically examining the horses I have not seen the remarkable results reported here and usually find barns do not keep up the regular use of the procedure over time.
DrO |
Terri
Member
Username: terrilyn
Post Number: 503
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, Apr 24, 2007 - 11:39 am: | |
I can only attest to what we experienced...and it did make a profound difference with this particular horse. More than what I expected. |
Melissa Boschwitz
Member
Username: amara
Post Number: 287
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, Apr 24, 2007 - 9:27 pm: | |
i KNEW you were going to say that Dr. O (*LOL*)..
that's ok, i still think you're great.. we can agree to disagree...
 |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18328
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 25, 2007 - 6:48 am: | |
Thanks Melissa,
Just doing my job trying to keep you guys thinking.
DrO |
Angie J.
Member
Username: ajudson1
Post Number: 1169
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 25, 2007 - 8:28 am: | |
Keep us thinking (and learning), huh? COOL.
I pull on my horses tails too, I figure it's like if we were to hang upside down in one of those inversion things. It does feel good (I don't have one, but I've hung around upside down on my brothers) Of course it's just using gravity the opposite way for us, not the same as for a horse.
I am having a vet out next month to do teeth and possibly chiropractic adjustments. I am still undecided if I will PAY to have her do some adjustments or not. I think I will do some probing and poking and try some other things before she comes and helps drain the checking account more.
DrO,
Regarding your last paragraph: Did those horses have any obvious problems? Or were they just adjustments hoping to tweak things a little in hopes of improving performance? |
Terri
Member
Username: terrilyn
Post Number: 504
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 25, 2007 - 9:19 am: | |
I had an idea that Dr. O. would have some comments too, and that's ok. I don't think chiropractic is the answer to every problem. Neither does Dr. Anderson. His approach is this: "...to integrate these forms of medicine (chiro and accupuncture) with traditional lameness work. He has found the combination to be helpful in assessing and treating the equine athlete."
He mentioned that chiropractic work without the benefit of a veterinary background can cause more problems that it solves. I personally would not consider using an "equine massage therapist" without a DVM somewhere in the title.
Incidentally...when I took Jules to see Dr. Anderson, I went with the intention of locating the source of the problem and addressing it...not with the intention of getting him adjusted. It just so happened that chiro/accupuncture was the recommended treatment, and it has had long-lasting benefits. I agree that people should be very careful about chiropractic in general. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18335
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Apr 26, 2007 - 9:15 am: | |
Angie, over the years it has been a mixed bag, often the problems being addressed were vague performance problems but sometimes real lameness issues were being addressed. I do not remember a case where the normal course was changed.
The problem Terri, is which problems are chiropractic and acupuncture effective for, if any. You have noted improvement in problems following the use of these modalities but, "when the cock crows the sun rises" and this happens millions of times daily. What is important to determine is causality. Relying on personal experience is the lowest form of evidence as can easily be demonstrated by the thousands of years of terrible medicine based on personal experience.
I am sorry to keep beating this drum but by the posting above I don't feel I am getting through. I never ask anyone to stop doing what they thought was working for them (unless dangerous) no matter my opinion but I do require postings on this board to be critiqued through the prism of evidence based medicine. One should note that though chiropractic looks fairly safe there have been some permanent injuries reported following its use.
DrO |
Michelle
Member
Username: mleeb
Post Number: 79
Registered: 5-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, Aug 20, 2008 - 6:01 pm: | |
Dr. O, just wondering if there are any new bits of info to report on the field of equine chiropractic? I found it very interesting that there was no solid scientific/medical proof of it's results, particularly as I have had such dramatic results with treatment of my horses, as have many of the people I've spoken with. Horses have been major players in the development of the world as we know it -- imagine thousands of years of farming and travelling without a horse -- and continue to contribute in a big way, and yet there are so many things about them that no one has sat down and researched. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 21253
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Monday, Aug 25, 2008 - 5:10 pm: | |
Hello Michelle,
I have left your post in my inbox trying to decide how to handle this. I think it is time we put together an article on equine chiropractic manipulation and I hope to have an article up by early next week. I will post here when I get it up including the most recent research.
DrO |
