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Discussion on Probios

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Lisa Kendrick
Member
Username: Redk

Post Number: 9
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Monday, Sep 22, 2003 - 1:55 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I've read your article on Probiotics, however I did not see anything on the "one time" probiotic treatments. I have used a gel/paste called Probios in the past. I was told it was good to use after deworming / after a stressful episode / after a round of oral antibiotics to help get the natural flora/fauna of the gut regulated, as all of these situations may cause either an overgrowth or depletion of bacteria.

Is there any benefit to this. We just got a recently weaned filly whom we just brought out to our farm. I wanted to use some Probios on her to help her gut adjust after the trip, but am I wasting my money?

Thanks - Lisa
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 9158
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Monday, Sep 22, 2003 - 6:55 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Benefit to who? The Probios company benefits greatly but for your horse, none clearly shown. I am a little confused by your question Lisa: if there is no clear benefit from long term use, what possible benefit from short time use could there possibly be?
DrO
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Lisa Kendrick
Member
Username: Redk

Post Number: 10
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Tuesday, Sep 23, 2003 - 1:46 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Holy cow - I just asked a simple question - I didn't expect to be treated like a simpleton! I really enjoy this board and have gotten alot of useful info, but I didn't think that one question would invoke such a snide reply. I didn't ask about long-term use of probiotics - I asked if a single dose of Probios would help to regulate the natural flora of her GI tract. That's all. My doctor tells me that after a round of antibiotics, I should eat yogurt for the same reason. I'm not asking if I should cut off her foot because she's limping - I was just wondering if there is any benefit to her (it seems you were unclear as to whom would benefit) GI system.

We lost a colt to colic complications related to gastic ulcer syndrome and I NEVER want to go through that again. I was just interested if anyone else had used Probios for the reasons listed in my original post, and if they actually worked the way the manufacturer claims.

Sorry for asking - I won't post again.

Lisa
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 9168
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Tuesday, Sep 23, 2003 - 6:27 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Sorry for the misunderstanding, Lisa, snideness was not my intent. The first 2 sentences were an attempt at humor, apparently a poor attempt, and a answer to your question. The last sentence was an attempt to get you to think about what you had read in the article. If you read the article carefully I think you will see that there is little chance this product is useful whether used short term or long. Apparently this was not well done either.
DrO
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Shirley A. Johnson
Member
Username: Shirl

Post Number: 68
Registered: 2-2002
Posted on Tuesday, Sep 23, 2003 - 2:02 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Lisa,
Sorry for your problems. I use probios on my horse as she is on constant Bute due to an adhesion. A holistic vet (not my own personal vet) suggested using probios due to this. She suggested Fast Track, however, my horse doesn't like anything that doesn't 'crunch', so I switch to a type that I syringe in her mouth whenever I go out to the boarding place (3 x a week). I am at work, and of course I can't recall the brand name, but I ordered it through the mail. If your interested, I'll put my memory back in working mode and let you know. My E-mail is sj52236@qwest.net. Hang in there, Shirl
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JANETTE MCDOWELL
Member
Username: Westks

Post Number: 47
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Tuesday, Sep 23, 2003 - 2:16 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Lisa
I use Fastrack for that very reason I believe in using it for many reasons, one they digest more of their food than they would with out it, and it has made the difference more times than I can count within 24 hrs of feeding. Chronic colic horses stop colicing I have personally owned 6 head that quit colicing after using in feed daily.
I use the dry type so shelf life and administration is easier.
There are so many products out there that veterinarians are really not able to test each product with real strict studies.
I peronally don't use PRObios at all because Fastrack is more economical and I can use it on my birds , sheep, cattle, and horses. I can have it mixed at elevator in my grain mix so it works out best for me.
I hope this helps and I'm sure no one intended to offend you, I am guilty about being passionate about my beliefs and try to be careful when something strikes a nerve but I am guilty of being harsh at times too.
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Fiona Farrell
Member
Username: Lala

Post Number: 99
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Tuesday, Sep 23, 2003 - 5:06 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Lisa - Dr. O can come across very abrasively at times, please don't let that discourage you. I think it's more a failure of the medium of email than it is him. He's also very driven by scientific provability, remember that thread of argument between him and Garnet. So sometimes it does take a thick skin to post or even a duck's back to let a curve ball type answer just roll off (again, think of the current thread with Dawn and Imogen's dialogue)-- forgive my wildly mixed metaphors. So don't let your reaction to Dr. O spoil your quest for knowledge specific to your horses, like riding get back on and ask another! Now, off my soap box where I've no doubt offended more than a few myself and on to your question.

My horses won't eat Probios powder. Powder or paste, I was also told it was developed for ruminants and thus not compatible with equine digestive tract therefore of questionable efficacy.

I do use a microbial supplement called Forco developed by Dr. Oliver Hinckle in California. You can call him and find out more about the product or order. He's at 1-800-830-9979.

There is a company, Equerry's, in Oregon that has a different approach/formulation developed specifically for horses. Equerry's can be reached at 1-888-921-2882.

As for wasting your money, on some things that is such a subjective call. If you can spend it on this and it means you won't go short elsewhere in your care for her or yourself then waste is irrelevant. If it means you may not be able to buy other products or services you need then it is a more crucial question.

I lost a broodmare to colic so I go what may seem like overboard to others on nutritional prevention of proven and less than proven value, ditto re trying to prevent ulcers, so I certainly relate to your concerns. Coming from that history based on the peace of mind factor alone I would say go for it.

I would also gauge my decision on what her general state of health is, a question I'm a wee bit surprised Dr. O didn't ask. If she has diarrhea or is on antibiotics or is getting newly dewormed my two cents would also be on feeding her some microbes. She's long past the 24 hours of age window and if she doesn't have any autoimmune issues then what the hay, it could help and it probably won't hurt.

Good luck with your filly. It certainly sounds probiotics or not that she will have the best of care and attention. And I hope you keep posting and give Dr O and yourself a second chance.

Fiona

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Debbie E
Member
Username: Deggert

Post Number: 2
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Tuesday, Sep 23, 2003 - 6:39 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Lisa
I have used a prebiotic called Forco for 5-6 years and used Probios once when I ran out
Of Forco and I was in the middle of a catastrophic foaling crisis. Long story short ( yeah right) If I had any doubts that Forco made a difference all doubt was removed .
The mare had a retained placenta for 29 hours and had a huge uterine infection, she was on pen k and Gentocin and all the other meds to prevent laminitis. (we did prevent)
By the time the second vet came to treat at 11 hours post foaling the baby had not nursed
There was no immunity, he was septic, hypoglycemic and had a mild case of contracted tendons in the rear legs. He had same antibiotics and banamine and on and on and he also had 2 tranfusions of antibodies and on day 2 we gave him a large dose of tetracycline to relax the tendons and bandaged his legs. The mare had a foal heat at 10 days. Through all this the baby never got diarrhea, and never has, he is 2 Ĺ and just fine. I started both on Forco the first day after foaling and syringed it to them twice a day, the baby loved it and sucked it right out of the syringe. I have to say that something other than good genes helped him through all the antibiotics and meds. Almost all babies get foal heat diarrhea and he did not. He was on antibiotics a total of 4 weeks.
Just thought I would share this with you. All my horses still get Forco everyday, I was thinking maybe it would be better to take them off once in a while but havenít heard one way or another. We all use this site to learn and give suggestions and experiences and
It helps us to help our horses . Good luck!
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Shirley A. Johnson
Member
Username: Shirl

Post Number: 69
Registered: 2-2002
Posted on Tuesday, Sep 23, 2003 - 7:15 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Debbie,
Where do you get the Forco? Sounds like very good stuff.
Thanks, Shirl
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Fiona Farrell
Member
Username: Lala

Post Number: 100
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Tuesday, Sep 23, 2003 - 9:10 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Shirl see my post above for toll free number for Forco. Just for record I started using it on a vet's recommendation to prevent foal scours and my now 18 month old has yet to have diarrhea.

Debbie, nice to hear of someone else using Forco, as it is a western product and I am in the east no one else I know around me uses it. Doesn't it smell good?

Fiona
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 9170
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Wednesday, Sep 24, 2003 - 6:25 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Concerning Debbie's experience with Forco and the newborn there is a good reason why the antibiotics did not cause diarrhea: newborn foals do not have any microbes in there digestive system to upset with antibiotics.

Concerning skipping foal heat diarrhea, are we sure this is a good thing? This is a very common event in growing foals and most believe it is related to a establishment of normal bacterial flora and may have a immune stimulation function. Just a thought, no proof either way. Thinking about it however, our baby mule and the other 1/2 dozen foals we foaled out here this year did not have foal heat diarrhea, but I do not know why some do and some don't.

I attempted to find the ingredients to this product on the net without luck, If someone with a bag will list the ingredients I would be glad to comment.
DrO
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Elizabeth
Member
Username: Ann1

Post Number: 46
Registered: 6-1999
Posted on Wednesday, Sep 24, 2003 - 8:02 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I am using a product from Adv Biological Concepts ABC plus. It suppose to help the digestive system plus probiotics. Has anyone used this product? If so did you like it, did it help with building the immune system etc. If you used this product did you use it with sweet feed? I am feeding rolled oats/barley mixed with T&A hay, mineral, white salt block. I was feeding the new XTN feed from Nutrena. It is suppose to have all the probiotic etc. Buy adding something like the ABC plus or the Fasttrack would that be to much? The reason for these questions is my QH gelding who tested positive at age 2 with EPM, then a year later found out he also had a kidney problem. then just 6 months ago his thyroid T3 was found to be very low around 21. the T4 was good. I want to keep this horses immune system as well as his digestive tract in good shape. Any help out there. Oh my QH is now 10 years old.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 9177
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Thursday, Sep 25, 2003 - 6:12 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Elizabeth,
A few comments, neither the commonly used tests for EPM or T3/T4 levels for thyroid function are of much use in the horse. The articles on these diseases explain more about this.
DrO
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Prakash Balakrishnan
New Member
Username: Prakashb

Post Number: 3
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Monday, Mar 27, 2006 - 4:45 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I do have a similar question about using a probiotic after worming. What would be a good product, if any, to be used for this one time thing. Also, when worming with a product like panacur, for five days, would you give the probiotic after the 5th day? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 15167
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Monday, Mar 27, 2006 - 6:19 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Why would you feel a need to use a probiotic following dewormimg. The products we recommend are anthelminics and don't normally have a significant impact on the normal flora of the bowel. I do not often recommend the 5 day panacur therapy do to expense, recent reports of potential resistance even to this intensive program, and that moxidectin does a very good job on most larval stages of encysted strongyles.
DrO
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Prakash Balakrishnan
New Member
Username: Prakashb

Post Number: 4
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Monday, Mar 27, 2006 - 7:23 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thank you very much. I have read recent articles on moxidectin being somewhat toxic, what are your opinions on this?
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Prakash Balakrishnan
New Member
Username: Prakashb

Post Number: 5
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Monday, Mar 27, 2006 - 7:33 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Nevermind, I just read the article on moxidectin, thanks so much!
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 15179
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 28, 2006 - 7:26 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Excellent Prakash!
DrO
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Kimberli Barlieb
New Member
Username: kimber3

Post Number: 1
Registered: 1-2011
Posted on Monday, Jan 10, 2011 - 3:35 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hello Dr. O. I am new here so please forgive me if the answer lies in one of the articles I haven't read just yet. I have a 16 year paint. He has very watery stools. He is very healthy, and an easy keeper otherwise and not underweight by any means. We have tried pro-biotics which seemed to have helped at first, however, it seems to have come back. It certainly isn't as bad as it once was. Any ideas? This has been an ongoing thing. He is on Nutrena Safechoice and only receives about a pound a day with free choice hay and water during the cold winter months here in the Northeast. He is also wormed bi-montly. Thank you in advance for your reply!
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro

Post Number: 25420
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 11, 2011 - 2:39 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Welcome Kimberli,
I would start with the article HorseAdvice.com ¬Ľ Diseases of Horses ¬Ľ Colic, Diarrhea, GI Tract ¬Ľ Diarrhea in Horses ¬Ľ Diarrhea an Overview. You will find many helpful suggestions there.

But if you have more questions it is important for you to start your own discussion rather than posting at the bottom of someone else's. You will find the Start New Discussion button at the bottom of each page that has a article on it. It is under the list of already existing discussions.
DrO
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