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HorseAdvice.com » Horse Care » Worms, Deworming, Parasite Control » Deworming Schedules » |
Discussion on Tape worm | |
Author | Message |
New Member: Equus1 |
Posted on Sunday, Oct 24, 2004 - 2:02 pm: Hello,My 16 years old TB mare colicked Thursday october 21st and had surgery. They found a lot of tape worms. All my horses were dewormed with Quest/Praziquantel on Tuesday October 19. Prior to that they were dewormed with Quest on July and on April. Last year I did the Ivermectin rotation. I also have two 5 and 6 month old fillies who are strictly on Ivermectin. They were dewormed in May, June, July and September. The mare who had surgery was estimated (by the vet) to be between 1300 and 1400 pounds and I only used one dose wormer for her. Could that be the cause of the problem. I am also not always very accurate in my timing (a couple of weeks late sometime). What should I do now to fix this problem and protect all my horses? I have 7 adult horses and 2 babies. Thank you in advance for your help. |
Member: Ryle |
Posted on Sunday, Oct 24, 2004 - 7:53 pm: Valerie,Are you concerned that the Quest/Praziquantel combo didn't kill the tapeworms? According to the research, Praziquantel will rid horses of tapeworms within 10 days--it's not immediate. If you are just wondering about how to treat the other horses for tapeworms, you either have to use Praziquantel or double dose strongid. I would use the Praziquantel so that you aren't going to be killing off the tapes and any other worms all at once, since you are worried about a heavy tape infestation. Praziquantel is labelled for use in foals as young as 5 mo., so you can use it on your fillies and your adult horses. I would measure each horse and calculate their weight rather then estimating it as under dosing is going to have an effect on whether or not you get a good "kill". There are formulas and tables for calculating weight listed in the Members Services>>Horse Management Course>>Nutrition>>Weight, Condition Evaluation |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, Oct 25, 2004 - 8:42 am: Hello Valerie,You should follow our schedule as outlined in the article associated with this forum. Note that it has 2 tapeworm dewormings per year every year. DrO |
Member: Equus1 |
Posted on Monday, Oct 25, 2004 - 3:39 pm: Cynthia,Thank you for your answer. Yes, I am worried praziquantel didn't kill all the tapeworms but if you are telling me it takes up to 10 days then it could still be working. Unless I didn't give her enough. Should I worm them again with Praziquantel just in case? Can I find Praziquantel wormers alone, I always see them combined with Ivertectin or Quest? I went to pick up my mare today and the vet gave me a package/combo of panacur to use for 5 days. I thought that didn't kill the tapeworms. Valerie |
Member: Equus1 |
Posted on Monday, Oct 25, 2004 - 3:43 pm: DrO,I have been following your schedule for more than 3 years and have been using Praziquantel twice a year. My mare still had tape worms. Thanks. Valerie |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, Oct 26, 2004 - 8:01 am: Hello Valerie,Cynthia (below) is correct in that Pancur is not effective against tapes and gives all around good advice. Concerning following our schedule, in your initial post you did not state you were regularly using a tape worm product in fact it sounds like the opposite. Did you just not include the praziquantel dewormings in your description? One other point where I see you were not adhereing to out program is that in our overview article we recommend you overdose your adult horse 15% above estimated weight it sounds like you have been underdosing. You should also note we suggest even a larger overdosage amount for foals. The article explains why and by how much. I am concerned that if you were using praziquantel regularly that tapes were found. Could you tell me what the past tape worm deworming schedule has been? Also I am interested in the vets assesment of whether he thought the tapes caused the colic or if perhaps the death of the tapes might have contributed to the colic. Praziquantel is nearly 100% effective against tapes and there are no known resistance problems. Because of the long prepatency, twice yearly should eliminate tapeworms from the property overtime. If you have tapes after using this program I can only think of these reasons: 1) Underdosing. 2) Products not containing what they say they do. 3) Severe preexisting infestation on the pasture. Lets address these one at a time. 1) Underdosing could be from underestimating weight and a horse that is good at avoiding being dewormed. The weight issue does seem to be an issue with the surgery horse so be sure you address this. Two, be sure that they are not spitting the product out. The overview article gives other suggestions for effective deworming procedures that may help. 2) Defective product does occur from time to time but as long as you using name brand products and they are in date you should not have a problem. Poor storage may cause defective product so either check your sources or consider changing them to insure fresh well stored product. 3)Lastly lets assume you have badly contaminated pastures. You should go to using a tapeworm product 4 times a year, including on your foals. This does not require a seperate praziquantel product but just include it with 4 of tthe ivermectin treatments and all the Quest treatments. For more specific information on tape worm infections see, Equine Diseases » Colic and GI Diseases » Parasites and Worms » Tapeworms, Cestode spp. DrO |
Member: Ryle |
Posted on Monday, Oct 25, 2004 - 4:39 pm: Valerie,I looked around at different suppliers and didn't see any Praziquantel without Ivermectin. But if you just dewormed all of them with Praziquantel and Ivermectin, I wouldn't do it again immediately. And no, Panacur doesn't kill tapes. Call your vet and ask him why he sent the Panacur? And while you are talking to him, ask him what he would recommend for a deworming schedule? He may feel that you need to deworm more then twice a year for tapes if he thinks that is an issue. He's going to have a better idea of what parasites are commonly seen in your area and can give you knowledgeable advice. Don't ever be afraid to just call and talk to your vet, especially after he has just treated your animal for a serious condition. Vets expect owners to have questions about treatments and conditions even after they have talked to you face to face. There is just such an overload of emotion and information when your animal is sick that it is common for owners not to remember what their vet said or to come up with pertinent questions later after they have had some time to digest everything they were told. I always recommend writing down your questions/concerns prior to talking to your vet so that you don't forget anything and keeping paper and pen handy for writing down his replies while you are talking to him. Chances are pretty good that your horse is never going to be totally free of intestinal parasites. Basically we just try to keep the numbers down to an acceptable level. So, as long as you are on a good deworming schedule, rotating pastures and/or picking up the manure out of your pastures, then you should be keeping the parasite numbers down. You might want to try having fecal checks run prior to deworming and then again shortly afterwards to see how effective your deworming program is. Good luck Cindy D. |
Member: Equus1 |
Posted on Tuesday, Oct 26, 2004 - 3:32 pm: DrO,Thank you for your answer. Last year I did evey two month with Ivermectin and in January a double dose of Srongid. I started using Praziquantel this year and did it in April and October with Quest. I also used Quest alone on January and July. You are right I think I might be underdosing, I will use the information on your site to do a better weight estimate. And I will add the 15% for the horses and 50% for the fillies. Reguarding the pastures, I am in New Mexico and we have no grass only dirt. The pens are picked daily. The vet said they could get the tape worms from the hay which could be infected from wildlife stools. The vet who did the surgery could'nt tell for sure if the tape worms were the cause of the colic, he said it was a possibility. He didn't say anything about the death of the tape worms causing the colic but I will call and ask him. He also found some pin worms. I think I should do an extra worming with the right weight on all the horses and fillies. Should I use Quest/Praziquantel or Ivermectin/Praziquantel? Should I also do the 5 days of Panacur for the other worms? Thank you. Valerie |
Member: Equus1 |
Posted on Tuesday, Oct 26, 2004 - 3:55 pm: Cynthia,Thank you for your answer too. I will call the vet and ask about the panacur. I told him what my worming schedule was and he said it was fine, he didn't know why it didn't work. Thanks. Valerie |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Wednesday, Oct 27, 2004 - 6:49 am: I believe the horse tapes are specific to horses but if horses grazed the fields your vet is correct, the hay can be a source of infection. Pinworms...and you have been deworming and the paddocks are picked daily? If the paddocks are picked daily where are they picking up the pinworms? Are we to surmise that the pinworms are coming from the baled hay, this seems less likely...There is something very odd going on here. Can you tell me what type surgery was performed?Valerie, I would have fecals performed on all your horses before deciding what next step to take. If you would let me know the results of your fecals I would be glad to put my 2 cents in. DrO |
Member: Gailking |
Posted on Thursday, Oct 28, 2004 - 3:14 pm: Sorry to hear about your tapeworm episode, surgery and worming problems Valerie. Re the Panacur; an article in Horse Journal (no advertising) about wormers said that in about 30 young horses tested, Panacur was 0% effective in removing worms!! I have done the 5-day treatment on my horses in the past, but do not use Panacur anymore because of that article. In that same article they said that tapeworm infestation is not usually a problem except on irrigated pastures. It sounds like you don't have that. Your case is complex and Dr. O gave you good advice about fecals. Good luck with solving your problem. Gail |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Friday, Oct 29, 2004 - 8:41 am: Read this with Rodney Dangerfield's voice in mind...An article in Horse Journal?...I have only been telling yall this is a out of date product since opening this site... I just can't get no respect. DrO |
Member: Equus1 |
Posted on Friday, Oct 29, 2004 - 4:43 pm: Hi!I finnaly got a call back from the vet who did the surgery late yesterday. I don't know what to think anymore. I asked him why he gave me Panacur power pack since it doesn't treat tape worms. He said it wasn't tested at the time the drug came out because they didn't think there was a problem with tape worms in horses. But veterinarian have been using it with very good success and it works and that's why he recommends it. He said it would be too expensive for the drug company to retest the product. He couldn't tell me if the worms where dead or alive when they did the fecal before the surgery because the tech did it and wouldn't remember. He think it might have been both. He couldn't tell from the surgery since they didn't cut the guts but only untwisted and put it back in place. He said I should give all my horses the 5 days of Panacur then in 30 days give them Quest/praziquantel combo. I asked him what rotation schedule he recommend and he said that I should deworm every 6 to 8 weeks rotating between Ivermectin and Strongid. Once a year Panacur power pack. And once a year he adds praziquantel. That's what he gives his own horses. The colic she had was a displacement of the right bowel with a twist. No part of the guts were dead yet and they didn't have to cut anything. Yes the paddocks are picked daily. The only thing I can think about is that we moved to a new place a few month ago. It was a raw piece of land and we built it from the ground up, no horses on it other than trail riders. Also I have rescued 2 PMU mares last winter and they used to be in their own pen but a month ago I put one of the mares and the filly with the mare who colicked and her baby. Those mares have only been on my schedule for less than a year and had their first praziquantel worming in April. Is it possible that they had some tape worms left if heavily infected? And same with the pin worms. DrO I thought fecals were not always helpfull. I have 9 horses, it could get very costly... (Not as much as colick surgery!!!) Valerie, very confused! |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Saturday, Oct 30, 2004 - 3:21 pm: Hello Valerie,I can see why you would be confused, it had sounded like he had seen these worms during the surgery and I can find no support for the use of Panacur (fenbendazole) against tapes. I do find two reports that specifically find fenbendazole and 8 other closely related dewormers not effective horse tapeworms. Until there are well studied reports to suggest it is effective, I recommend you stay with praziquantel which we know to be near 100% effective when used according to label instructions. If we assume your horses are having problems with worms, Strongid is not as effective as ivermectin or Quest. If all your horses are in the same management you could have fecals run on half of them but be sure to include one of the foals. As you say it is cheaper than surgery or even feeding the worms. We strongly recommend a fecal a year. There are limitations to fecals particularly with regard to tapes but if done correctly are very informative and part of our recommedations for a good deworming program , see the Overview of Deworming for instructions to maximize the information. DrO |
Member: Gailking |
Posted on Thursday, Nov 4, 2004 - 4:32 pm: Hi Valerie and DrO,I just realized my post was not very clear. I know Panacur does not work for tapeworms, but the article I referred to did fecal counts for all types of intestinal worms and said that the Panacur did not eliminate ANY type of worms on the young horses; it was 0% effective! The information your vet is giving you Valerie just doesn't make sense. You have a serious problem in your herd plus a dangerous colic and his answers don't compute to me. I don't know any vet who says that Panacur kills tapes. Maybe you could talk to a different vet and with DrO's help get more reliable information. I really hope you solve your problem and have a herd of healthy horses soon. Gail |
Member: Ryle |
Posted on Saturday, Nov 6, 2004 - 8:30 am: Dr. O,Where can I find the two reports that find febendazole not effective against horse tapeworms? |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, Nov 9, 2004 - 9:00 am: These are the two best Cynthia. It should be noted that the dosage rate is not what you would get with the Power Pack but I can find no studies at that dosage level:Ann Rech Vet. 1981;12(3):303-16. Anthelmintic treatment of equids: capabilities and limitations. Critical tests of nine anthelmintic agents on ponies. Pecheur M. A number of good anthelmintic drugs are currently available which eliminate gastrointestinal nematodes of equids with over 90% success. This is shown by comparing results of critical tests conducted with 9 anthelmintic agents on ponies using the following dosages: 19 mg/kg for Pyrantel embonate, 10 mg/kg for Oxfendazole, 10 mg/kg for Mebendazole, 5 mg/kg for Albendazole, 40 mg/kg for Dichlorvos, 44 mg/kg for Thiabendazole, 7.5 mg/kg, for Fenbendazole, 20 mg/kg for Cambendazole and 7 mg/kg for Parbendazole. From 6 to 9 ponies were treated with each of these anthelmintic agents. Based on total activity of various parasites involved, there was no significant difference in activity of any of the nine agents. With respect to Trichonema spp., or small strongyles, which are most numerous and most common in equids, statistical analysis enabled all nine products to be classified into three groups as follows: group 1, with the most active being Oxfendazole and Pyrantel embonate; group 2; including Thiabendazole, Mebendazole, Albendazole and Cambendazole; group 3, with Parbendazole, Fenbendazole et Dichlorvos. Results with large strongyles sometimes vary quite significantly. Dichlorvos and Pyrantel embonate should be recommended against Strongylus spp.; Mebendazole and dichlorvos against pinworms; Cambendazole against Strongyloides westeri; Pyrantel embonate, Cambendazole and Dichlorvos against Parascaris equorum; and Dichlorvos, Mebendazole with Trichlorfon and Pyrantel embonate with Trichlorfon against bots. No activity against Trichostrongylus axei, Anoplocephala spp. was noted with any of the nine agents tested. J Parasitol. 1977 Aug;63(4):724-7. Critical anthelmintic trials in ponies with four benzimidazoles: mebendazole, cambendazole, fenbendazole, and albendazole. Colglazier ML, Enzie FD, Kates KC. The comparative efficacy of four benzimidazoles against gastrointestinal parasites of ponies was evaluated by the critical test method. Mebendazole (8.8 mg/kg), cambendazole (20 mg/kg), fenbendazole (5 mg/kg), and albendazole (2.5 and 5 mg/kg) given in single oral doses were highly effective against adult large strongylids (Strongylus vulgaris, S. endentatus, S. equinus) and adult small strongylids (genera identified in order of frequency: Cylicostephanus, Cylicocyclus, Cyathostomum, Triodontophorus, Poteriostomum, Oesophagodontus, Cylicodontophorus, Gyalocephalus, and Craterostomum). Limited data indicated that all benzimidazoles were completely effective against adult Oxyuris equi and 95 to 100% effective against the 4th stage larvae. There was activity also against the large roundworm, Parascaris equorum, although the low levels of infection and skew distribution among the test animals did not permit a definitive determination of efficacy. Habronema muscae, Draschia megastoma, and Trichostrongylus axei were found in digests of the stomach but none were recovered in the feces after treatment; percent efficacy for these species was not calculated. None of the benzimidazoles showed activity against stomach bots, Gasterophilus spp., and tapeworms, Anoplocephala spp. nor against immature large and small strongylids outside the lumen of the digestive tract. DrO |
Member: Kari |
Posted on Wednesday, Nov 10, 2004 - 10:54 pm: Dr.O,Hope this is close enough to the current topic but do you have any reason to continue to recommend Quest over the Farham product, Combo Care? |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Thursday, Nov 11, 2004 - 7:55 am: Though I have no experience with it, I believe Farham tries to produce quality pharmeceuticals. The price is very attractive.DrO |
Member: Jeans |
Posted on Saturday, Nov 13, 2004 - 6:01 pm: (my 2 cents) I just want to say, (once again) that this is the most reliable, up-to-date info I can find on ANY website, and YOU, Dr. O-some are awesome!Jeans. |
Member: Imogen |
Posted on Monday, Nov 15, 2004 - 2:54 am: Well, I've been using this site for quite a few years so how come I missed this change in the worming recommendations to praziquantel?Here in Ireland most people use a single double strongid (pyrantel) dose in Autumn to remove tapes and it's considered praziquantel, unless there is evidence or suspicion of tapes, is basically just an expensive product the chemical companies want you to buy. Are we all wrong, Dr O? Wormers are fantastically expensive here (quest is nearly 20 dollars a tube) and so are fecals. Problems with worms tend to be due to people not being able to afford the huge prices charged more than anything else... this is why we tend to be suspicious of yet more "new" and even more expensive products. I want to do the best by my horses but I find it hard to know if it's really important to be buying all this new stuff. I do quest/year ivermectin/year plus the autumn strongid. Changing to praziquantel twice a year instead of strongid is going to cost a good bit. Fortunately we have enough ground to be able to move pasture every 2-3 weeks which let's hope is some help. Imogen |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, Nov 15, 2004 - 7:59 am: I don't know how you missed it Imogen, we changed the recommendation in the article the middle of last year, have had talked about it in our newsletter several times, and must of had dozens of dicussions on it by now.Because you DrOp the 2X Strongid and use combination products you paste the horse 2 less times a year, save about 8 dollars a year (the combination products are cheaper than the strongid), and use a product that is nearly 100% effective instead of the abou 90% effectiveness of the 2x Strongid. It is a win-win-win situation switching to praziquantel. See the articles on dewormers for more and there is a specific tapeworm article in the Colic / Parasites section and a specific praziquantel article in the Medications / Dewormers section. DrO |
Member: Imogen |
Posted on Monday, Nov 15, 2004 - 10:24 am: Erm, not here it isn't - the combination products are MORE expensive, that's exactly why we're all suspicious of them. Thanks for the advice anyway, I already read the tapeworm one and now I'll read Praziquantel.Imogen |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, Nov 15, 2004 - 6:13 pm: They are more expensive here also but have you subtracted from the equation that you no longer have to buy the 2 tubes of Strongid? Here there is a savings when you look at the whole picture. DrO |