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Imogen Bertin
Member
Username: imogen
Post Number: 1080
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, Mar 22, 2008 - 3:30 pm: |   |
Hi all
The person who is going to break my young horse asked that I should have her teeth done and in particular any wolf teeth removed. I know that Dr O doesn't think there is a need for this unless it's requested by a trainer or there is some clear evidence they interfere with the bit, so I felt bad about putting her through it but also understood the trainer's point of view that it is most frustrating for them if they have to stop half way through training for dentistry and recovery.
I have to say the vet/dentist was very good and gave her local anaesthetic injectins as well as sedation. She had two wolf teeth in the upper jaw. He said they were the largest wolf teeth he ever removed (see picture which shows a baby tooth cap at the top, then a 2 cm long wolf tooth and its pair which unfortunately may have had the root broken off).
In Dr O's article it says that wolf teeth are usually the size of a maize corn grain. These were a good bit larger although the horse is not large. In general I agree that conservative treatment is best. I happen to have met a half brother of my horse which had really severe wolf tooth problems that led to it become very head shy so I hope I did the right thing. I don't know, I guess there are arguments in both directions.
I wonder if large wolf teeth are hereditary?
I am always amazed that horses do not seem to have the phobias/pain relating to teeth that humans do. She was eating hay again within about 15 minutes of coming around from the sedation, and back in the field after 2 hours.
All the best
Imogen |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 20316
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Sunday, Mar 23, 2008 - 12:02 pm: | |
Nice photos Imogen of common tooth situations encountered. Wow local anesthetic, I have to admit I have not progressed that far but I must say I usually have them out quicker than the time it takes for the anesthetic to take effect. The a2 sedatives seem to provide a fair amount of anesthesia to the head, that or I guess I am just a primitive old practitioneer.
 DrO |
Imogen Bertin
Member
Username: imogen
Post Number: 1081
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, Mar 23, 2008 - 12:58 pm: | |
He did say he thought that his boss the senior vet would laugh at him about the local anaesthetic, but his father is a dentist and together they devised this method. He takes the teeth out in the stable on a home visit, not at the vet clinic with the horse restrained in stocks.
He uses a headrest stand he devised himself which has adjustable height, but the disadvantage is that a sedated horse which is still objecting slightly or starting to come around will tend to roll its head on the stand and of course the horse is always heavier than the humans.
He says if you use the local, usually they don't object, the teeth come out faster, the problem's solved, everyone's happy including the owner. He started doing it because although he's specialised in equine dentistry for several years now, he finds that standard removals can take 5 minutes or an hour depending on the tooth and jaw, so he'd rather know he has room for maneoevre when things get complicated.
Possibly he is too technical and the old methods may be best!
Anyway, horse seems fine...
Imogen |
Corinne Candice
Member
Username: corinne
Post Number: 1292
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, Mar 23, 2008 - 1:12 pm: | |
I remember right when I got Demetrius and he had his wolf teeth pulled (he was rising 6) I was initially appalled that the vet was just going to to yank them out under regular IV sedation he was under for his floating. It was quick and apparently painless and I have no idea why I thought they would be huge and painful to remove like humans but I was ignorant.
I think Imogen if the vet can prevent pain and it doesn't cause harm to the horse I always opt for it. My horse seems to remember pain. To this day any time I go near an old wound site that has totally healed he is worried I will do wound care and gets all ancy and won't let me near him. I now use ambesol for small things like injections. I know, probably overkill, but anything to make it less traumatic, once again it seems to work for us and I have a happier horse. The dogs too seem to remember pain as Robby who was abused 2 owners ago flinches from a raised hand even if it's to fix your own hair. The other the 4 yr old lab cross Rocky got swatted with a newspaper on his snout once and if I move to quickly near his face sometimes he will flinch and he has never been hit by us. So who knows. I like your vets approach if it helps....both the horse and with human anxiety over the procedure.
Glad to hear it went well. The pictures are a very nice addition to the post.
Corinne |
Elizabeth Kaufman
Member
Username: ekaufman
Post Number: 445
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, Mar 23, 2008 - 2:39 pm: | |
Hi Imogen,
Good photos. My young stallion had wolf teeth at least that size. My daughter tried the old scam of leaving them for the tooth fairy (who wisely swapped them for a horse cookie-- not TF's first barbeque, after all).
I've never seen local anesthetic used for teeth, but it doesn't sound crazy. My vet has expressed the wish to sedate the human client during floating-- maybe this helps settle the owner as well as the horse?
- Elizabeth |
Lee
Member
Username: paul303
Post Number: 1064
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Monday, Mar 24, 2008 - 12:32 am: | |
Wow! I'm impressed! I mean, I think it's wonderful but, man, I can't imagine the landmarks he's established for the injection sites. I know it's nothing for the wolf teeth, they usually pop right out, but when you're talking about 1 hour depending on local anasthesia, you've got to get the injection in the right spot....and that spot can change slightly from horse to horse due to slight differences in anatomy. To say nothing of the fact that even under sedation, local anesthesia HURTS. At least the first part of the first injection. I've been present enough when humans have behaved badly when receiving local - even when they have been told to expect "a little pinch" ( heh, heh, yeah, sure ). With a horse, you can't forewarn them. It'll always be a surprise. Don't think I'd want to be wielding THAT syringe.
I DON'T disapprove, on the contrary, you've got quite a vet! Takes a lot of talent, to inject a horse....accurately. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 20326
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Monday, Mar 24, 2008 - 8:31 am: | |
Well, I am don't think our methods better but I would have to charge twice as much to take the time and effort to do all that. I remove them in the field usually in the horse's stall in a simple 10 or 15 minute procedure from the time I give the sedative till the time I am packing back up. The head rest would be nice, usually I get some stout fellow to hold the head up if possible otherwise I might be on my knees.
DrO |
Imogen Bertin
Member
Username: imogen
Post Number: 1082
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, Mar 24, 2008 - 10:04 am: | |
The local anaesthetic injections took very little time - I think that sorting out the landmarks is what he did with his father's help, I should have asked him some more about that but I didn't want to distract him.
He said that one of the wolf teeth (the one which may have broken if it was originally as long as the other one) was deformed sideways hence the length of time for the procedure, and that he had done a similar job earlier in the day without complications on a 3 yo which only took 5 minutes.
The horse has the dental gag on when the injections are done, Lee... I bet a few human dentists would be happier if they could get their patients to put up with a gag!
I did wonder if it was all a cost palaver, Dr O, but he was there for maybe 45 minutes in total and the cost was 140 euros which is what we would typically pay here for a home visit floating where sedation is needed so it didn't seem to be a price-inflation tactic.
The head rest has a circular base with strengthening at right angles and is made of stainless steel with a roll-shaped stiff cushion on the top and a peg and slide system like an akro prop to adjust the height. He drew the idea out for the stainless steel fabrication guys and they made it for him.
All the best
Imogen |
Lee
Member
Username: paul303
Post Number: 1065
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, Mar 25, 2008 - 12:31 am: | |
Yeah, Imogen, the locals for the wolf teeth would be quick and easy, no landmarks necessary. The biggies are when you need the local to last an hour or so...for the molar extractions where you might need to deaden a quadrant.
Anyway, thanks for a really interesting post! |
dieliz
Member
Username: dsibley
Post Number: 103
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, Mar 25, 2008 - 9:30 pm: | |
Nice photos! Just be careful of the one that broke the root off. I had little baby Darrell's wolf teeth pulled when he was gelded. I saw the teeth, did not know how extensive the root system is supposed to be. Unfortunately, I discovered during a regular dentist visit last week that the wolf teeth had both broken, leaving the poor thing with two painful bumps that hit the bit. Thank goodness I had just started him and had not used a bit much on him. So...he had to have it done again! I know it was worse on me than on him, though. |
Imogen Bertin
Member
Username: imogen
Post Number: 1083
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Mar 26, 2008 - 3:30 am: | |
I was told to check her mouth again after 8-10 weeks (he said I can probably do this myself as she is quiet) and that any fragments will be easy to feel and easy for him to remove - but I forgot to mention that! I don't plan to go sticking my fingers in there until everything is well healed-up...
Imogen |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 20333
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, Mar 26, 2008 - 8:22 am: | |
I would say about 1/2 time I don't get all the root either but have not had the experience dietz, has. My experience is this has been no problem at all. Dieliz, from the "baby" reference in your post, I am wondering what age your horse was when the teeth were removed? I am thinking if done very early that perhaps they continued to grow after they were done?
DrO |
dieliz
Member
Username: dsibley
Post Number: 104
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, Mar 26, 2008 - 8:48 am: | |
Sorry...little 'baby' Darrell was 15 months old when he was gelded and had the teeth removed. I just never thought to check to be sure the roots weren't causing a problem. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 20335
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, Mar 26, 2008 - 9:19 am: | |
No need to be sorry dietz, it may well be it is as you say so new experiences are welcomed. How big were the bumps and what led the dentist to believe they were a problem?
DrO |
dieliz
Member
Username: dsibley
Post Number: 106
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, Mar 26, 2008 - 10:01 am: | |
The bumps were maybe 1/8-inch above the flat surface of the gum. One was slightly abraded on the top...just a little blood there, and was rough to the touch. Darrell will be 2 in May, and I have been on him just a few times. He does great except with the bridle: tosses his head quite a bit. I thought it was just because it was fairly new, but now think it was from the bit hitting the bump. I gave him a week to heal, put the bridle back on him and the head-tossing is much, much better. So, I will assume that is what it was.
Now he is going through a huge growth spurt, so I am not going to try to get on him again until he has leveled out. His hip is so high he is like being on a ski slope! |
Imogen Bertin
Member
Username: imogen
Post Number: 1087
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 9, 2008 - 6:16 am: | |
Well now the 3 yo filly keeps rubbing open a spot just on her cheekbone but probably 2-3 inches behind where the wolf teeth were taken out.
I am guessing from Dr O's excellent articles and diagrams and explanations of when eruptions occur that just possibly she is rubbing to sooth irritation from an eruption of the 3rd premolar. She doesn't seem to be that sore if you press the area but she has taken the skin off the cheek about three times now.
Anyone had this happen? Horses rubbing their cheek in relation to teeth problems? It is definitely not near where the wolf tooth came out
I suppose it could also be insects or some other type of skin problem but she has nothing anywhere else.
Thanks for any thoughts...
Imogen |
jos
Member
Username: paardex
Post Number: 633
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 9, 2008 - 6:26 am: | |
If it itches [insect or so] try rubbing it with a slice of lemon it stops the itch normally for some hours at least. If she goes on on 'lemoncure' it would be something underneath?
Just a thought
Jos |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 20442
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Apr 10, 2008 - 7:07 am: | |
Imogen, rubbing the cheek raw is not something I normally experience with WT extraction or retained caps.
DrO |
Imogen Bertin
Member
Username: imogen
Post Number: 1088
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Apr 10, 2008 - 7:25 am: | |
I figure it's midges/biting flies.
Thanks! |
