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  Discussion on Pasture management with cows and horses
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Member:
paardex

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 25, 2008 - 3:55 am:

Hi All, For obvious reasons for whoever read the'Why' thread I am now researching cattle 'effects' on horses.
I've always been led to believe that if you rotate horses with ruminants you increase the fertility of your pasture[different manures and different grazing patterns] and reduce the parasite load[ruminants would demolish eaten horse parasites and vice versa?] which is why I have had sheep[well that was the excuse]
Rule of thumb was for every adult horse half a cow or two sheep. The sheep didn't work out in France due to the fencing [good quality electric fencing!] and because I have about 18 acres of [very green] grass which is more then I need for the horses so it would force me to have about 25 ewes to keep the pastures in good shape[I shudder to think what 25 ewes would have done to my mental health]
Is the assumption that horses and ruminants on the same property[both ofcourse effectively dewormed and in good health] is better for the pasture and reduces the parasite danger?
As I have not much experience with having cows I would first like to know if this is true and if so what other problems I should avoid[Looking for a Cow Advice fi]
My other options to keep the grass under control would be : Mowing until I get deaf from my little tractor[but it is possible] or taking in other peoples horses.
I like well kept pastures[well I am Dutch] and hate to see long unused sloppy paddocks also because it gets the quality of the food for the horses down.
Any errors in my reasoning?
All help appreciated
Jos
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 25, 2008 - 7:34 am:

Jos I don't know the facts as far as parasites, but have heard the same thing. All I can do is speak from experience. The cows will eat the grass that Has been used as the horses bathroom. The horses will eat where the cows go, actually they like that grass best. The cows seem to get WAY more flies than the horses, but for some reason they don't seem to carry over to the horses. Puke calf (full grown) and 2 600# heifers are kept in the pasture right next to the horses, not in with them, until I need the "bathroom" mowing done. The 3 of them (heifers) are on about 2 acres and they can't even begin to keep up with the grass, but this year has been a very good grass year.

In the fall I put the horses in with the calves/cows and they get along fine, and the horses and calves actually play together. HOWEVER if you feed them hay together, the horses get what they want and the cows get what's left. IME pasture works fine, haying them together doesn't work unless there is plenty of hay spread all over.

Cows can founder, but usually because of too much grain, but I have seen them founder on lush spring grass (tho very rare) We've never had one founder personally.

Some horses don't like cows and WILL chase them.(good exercise) I would introduce them kind of like a new horse...over the fence until the horses become accustomed to them. Our cows and horses bunch up together at the fence next to each other, and the horses whinny at them when they leave LOL. Some horses are also scared to death of cattle, I've never had that experience, but have seen it. The heifers get special feed and that is why I don't keep them together.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 25, 2008 - 7:45 am:

Forgot...I did ask my vet if the horses could get worms from the cattle and he said no, that they were species specific. Maybe Dr.O. knows the ans. to that. And to worm the cattle you probably need a chute, or for any vet work actually. We don't have a chute, but the vet does and he brings one when we "work" the cattle...another option.

Hope that helps
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 25, 2008 - 8:21 am:

Hello jos,
You review the reasons commonly stated for grazing horse and cattle in rotation and they are logical if unstudied. Horses and cattle do not share intestinal parasites, other than a few rarities. But horse pastured with cattle may be a bit more prone to sarcoids and warbles.
DrO
Member:
paardex

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 25, 2008 - 11:36 am:

Thanks Dr O funny this isn't better studied, most horsebreeding farms keep cattle because they believe the deworming story[even the really big and professional farms] Guess oldfashioned farmer sense will do.
I found one study about productivity of pasture with combined grazing and it stated they found that the productivity increase of the pasture was so big that the cow/sheeps almost ate for free if kept in 1 cow 2 horses or 2 sheep one horse mix. It's a Dutch study from Wageningen.
But of course reducing the worm load is horsepeoples biggest interest.
Diane I mixed my sheep with the horses[well the sheep mixed themselves because they jumped about every fence or just ran through, but I think it will be safer to keep cattle separated from horses which will pose no problems[it gives the oportunity to give the best grass to the most deserving] As Most French cows have horns[and ridiculously LONG ones] I would be very careful to mix them with the horses.
Deworming cattle goes by injection or spot on over here so that doesn't pose a problem and they got things in their ears to fend of most of the flies or use a spot on product too.
My horses couldn't care less about sheep or cattle [I've had sheep under their tails to get rid of flies]Only Bartock will have to adjust and as he is fast and has shoes the NOT in the same paddock rule will be good I think. I must say I think horses like to have a lot of other animals around, I've had Bantams nesting in the boxes and even the most 'scaredy cat' horse easily accustomed to their flying noisy roommates.[some of them even calmed down a lot in the boxes when together with a few chickens. I know some racepeople who give them a chicken of their own]
Sooo covered most bases? I do understand I will have to keep mowing Diane but it will be less won't it?
Jos
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 25, 2008 - 7:17 pm:

Believe that there is also an increased risk of sarcoids for horses that are rotated with cattle.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 25, 2008 - 7:40 pm:

I have had horses with or by cattle for 25 yrs. and none of mine have ever had a warble or sarcoid, so I imagine it is rare as Dr.O. stated.. If the cattle and horses are dewormed well they shouldn't get them either.(warbles). I think that would be enough to gross me out if they did.

Wonder why there is a slight increased risk for sarcoids?
Member:
paardex

Posted on Thursday, Jun 26, 2008 - 2:24 am:

Ringworm being a sarcoid I know that occurs when cattle arrive with the disease.
Seems to me cows are just another species you need to keep healthy and then your horses[and cows] will do fine.
So the end conclusion is: I can have cows, they will eat grass, there is no scientific proof they get down the parasite load but it seems logical, and the pastures will benefit because they are grazed more evenly.
Did I leave something out?
Perhaps for someone who knows horses and has no experience with cows more horses on the pasture would be a better choice?
Boy I am beginning to feel like the donkey in between two lovely haystacks
No problem Sara arrives tomorrow and she can help me choose a haystack.
Thanks [esp. Diane can't I come for a stage at your place? As long as you don't expect me to climb on your roof!]
Jos
Member:
imogen

Posted on Thursday, Jun 26, 2008 - 3:46 am:

Jos, what about selling the extra grass for hay?

Here in Ireland there is a specific market for low-fertilised, ragwort-free small-bale hay for the small horse-owner. But of course in a good year the price is low and in a bad year you will be lucky to make the hay.

I look after about 25 acres and although my neighbour has sheep we have not used them because of the fencing issues. We sometimes ask for his cattle if we can see his grazing is short and a field needs "cleaning" but again it is a hassle for them moving them to and fro and cattle need different fencing. They are pretty dumb and get their heads stuck in gates etc.

So I tend to strip graze and mow, and spray for broadleaved weeds, and we usually do about 5 acres of hay. Normally there are about 6 horses here but the population alters depending on the needs of the landowner.

All the best - now you'll need to start a thread on building a haybarn!

Imogen
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Jun 26, 2008 - 6:03 am:

Jos I think cattle are way less sensitive then horses as far as care. Our cows are't hard on fences, they can be contained with one strand of hot wire....even the bulls. Of course I have seen some cows that ARE very hard on fences, but I have seen horses that are too.

I guess you have to weigh the pros and cons of "cow ownership" Personally I think they are way easier then the horses and being able to eat moldy hay & weeds is a bonus.

Jos you are welcome to come stay here anytime, I won't make any promises about the roof tho, they are chirping about more flash flooding and you may have to go up there to keep your feet dry. The view is beautiful from up there tho.

Hope you and Sara have a good time!!!
Member:
paardex

Posted on Friday, Jun 27, 2008 - 6:05 am:

Diane after what happened to your knee I wonder if I won't prefer to swim instead of sitting on your roof
Imogen I think your suggestion is the easiest, haybarns available and true: loads of people whit one or two horses wanting to buy small bales.
And it will do well in keeping parasites under control.
Still I can't totally abandon my dream of a few cows.
Biggest problem over here seems to find 'dependable' cows. Most of them are very heavy and totally not handled[and notoriously hard on fences almost all cows I've seen here are kept in behind at least five lines of barbed wire and I most certainly will not have that around my horses] which kept me from trying before. And if I find 1 or 2 'nice Pukey' cows I think I should still make hay. Wish grass would grow evenly all year round
Jos
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Jun 27, 2008 - 6:32 am:

Jos could you get a couple bottle calves? Usually when you raise them from the bottle they are much "tamer" Pukey was a bottle calf.
Member:
paardex

Posted on Friday, Jun 27, 2008 - 9:26 am:

YES! I can get the ancient Breton Pie Noir at 8 days of age[then they will have had their mothers first milk wont they?
At three or four months just weaned too, which seems to be less dangerous healthwise? But I have had calves to raise before[Holsteiners] so I should be able to manage with a hardier race wouldn't you think so?
Jos
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Jun 27, 2008 - 3:56 pm:

I don't know how things work across the waters!!, but I think they only need the colostrom within the first 24 hrs. so 8 days old should be good. We usually bottle feed them for a couple weeks....depending on my patience, then switch them to a bucket one for milk one for water, then start the sweet feed. Haven't had a bottle calf for awhile but it seems we had them weaned by around 6 weeks??? Our vet buys all our calves that end up bottle calves, because they are so quiet and his wife isn't a farm girl yet! I put gates up in the horses lean to and put the calf/calves right next to them, that way they have company...the calves. Hank loves them, he itches/licks them through the gates and stands guard!
Member:
paardex

Posted on Saturday, Jun 28, 2008 - 2:43 am:

Sounds like a good system and very manageable[read 'fun'] Would two be enough to keep each other company?
And on the Breton Pie Noir the government hands out frozen semen from good male to keep the race from disappearing, which sounds like an advantage to, I don't think I would like to have a bull...
Can your cows stripgraze like the horses too? so I could have hay and limited pasture for horse and cow during spring?
The horses really need help with the grass Sara arrived and mentioned mother Akacja could loose some weight and politely didn't say anything about the others but I saw her look!
Jos
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Jun 28, 2008 - 7:11 am:

I don't know why they couldn't strip graze, probably would be best! We have 2 very well mannered bulls here (not ours) and I still wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw em. I'd stick with a steer of heifer if I were you.

Don't let Sara near this place....I'd get the "your horses are fat" look too
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