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Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 2559
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Aug 1, 2008 - 7:16 am: |   |
Dr.O. With all the rain the white clover has gone wild! and of course it has the moldy tops that cause the "drools". My 3 horses have never had the clover drools, but it is coming out in buckets this year
A few weeks ago I put them back in the dry lot because they just looked bloated and the drooling was ridiculous, according to the weight tape they haven't gained any weight.
I let them out to graze for 2 hours a day and in that short of time the drools are ridiculous again and they look bloated.
Can clover cause bloat??? |
Ann S
Member
Username: annes
Post Number: 277
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, Aug 1, 2008 - 10:04 am: | |
Diane, Do your horses constantly drool or is it intermittent? About a week ago my horse started this but he was in an area with very little clover. He holds the saliva in his mouth for a long time and then it all pours out at once (a lot)- not like constant drooling. He seems to enjoy dumping it all over me when I am nearby. I did wonder if he has a tooth issue but I don't see anything wrong. I am going to ask the farrier to look in his mouth when he is here next week. My other horses are not doing this. I try not to let mine graze too much clover in a wet climate because of bloat. I think you are wise to limit their grazing. Can't cows bloat from this too? |
Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 2560
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Aug 1, 2008 - 4:07 pm: | |
Ann that's what mine do they hold it and when they open up their mouths a flood comes out, they have the lean-to soaked where they stand.
Some horses seem more reactive to it, a couple years ago a friend had her horse here and he was drooling like crazy...mine were unaffected.
This year Sam drools buckets and buckets...after 2 hrs. Hank isn't too bad and the mare very little. They all look bloated tho.
I bet your horse found some clover, it's when the white clover turns black the drools start and it isn't very visible at that point unless you look for it in your pasture.
The drools don't worry me much, but that bloating is weird.
I don't know if it affects cows for sure, but the heifers by the house seem fine and there is plenty of clover in their pasture too. |
Ann S
Member
Username: annes
Post Number: 279
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, Aug 1, 2008 - 4:41 pm: | |
Thanks, that answers my question. I won't worry about a tooth problem. I know what you mean about buckets of drool. I thought it was a large pee spot at first. Days later my non-horsey husband told me the horse almost threw up on him! I knew what it was and just chuckled to myself. |
Erika L
Member
Username: erika
Post Number: 1307
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, Aug 1, 2008 - 10:22 pm: | |
Ha ha! Horse barf!
We get the clover drools every few years, thankfully not this year. Really makes a mess of the stalls.
I think the clover is really rich, lots of calories like alfalfa. Probably wise to limit our easy-keepers, don't you think?
Erika |
Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 2564
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, Aug 2, 2008 - 6:52 am: | |
Yes I am thinking about making the 2 hrs. 1 hr.
Once I moved them to the dry lot all 3 horses crests went down almost over night. It must be VERY rich! Think I'm going to put the heifers in there to mow it down, although I don't think mowing will help? It sure comes back in our yard fast after we mow. |
Imogen Bertin
Member
Username: imogen
Post Number: 1150
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, Aug 3, 2008 - 3:03 am: | |
Clover likes mowing but not overgrazing...
Our agricultural advice service encourages farmers to increase clover to reduce fertiliser use. To encourage clover you avoid over-fertilising and overgrazing at the end of the autumn. So now you know how to discourage it!
I have never seen the drooling thing. Our must be different types of white clover.
All the best
Imogen |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 21140
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Sunday, Aug 3, 2008 - 9:27 am: | |
Any horse that is put on a foodstuff that it is not use to and it finds delectable can over eat, have marked gas production, and "bloat" which is a intestinal disease in horses. I have seen horses do this on excessive grain and may be possible on rich forages. I have not heard of this happening to horses on a forage to which they are well adapted.
DrO |
leslie christian
Member
Username: leslie1
Post Number: 248
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, Aug 3, 2008 - 11:44 am: | |
Im finding out about the clover drools too...LOL its the first time Ive ever had a horse on grass pasture. I guess being from AZ had one thing going for it. No drools lol... what horse could afford to waste precious saliva in that heat! just kiddin' we never had clover there.
My mare has been drooling intermittent...just like you describe yours is. Holding it in mouth. I just had her teeth floated about 2 months ago. It hasnt been too bad, not leaving pee...errr drool spots |
Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 2584
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, Aug 3, 2008 - 7:32 pm: | |
I let the horses out this afternoon in there "clover patch" for about an hour and brought them in. They were drooling even worse than normal, which is bad enough!
While I was mowing the lawn I noticed Hank was pawing and acting uncomfortable. Checked him out and he wanted to roll when I was bringing him in.
Took him to "his poop spot" and he pooped but was still acting uncomfortable.
Walked him around a bit and he really had some gas, gave some banamine and he is fine.
What ever is making them drool like that has got to have something bad about it. I think I'm right about the bloating, he was VERY, Very, gassy. |
Lori
Member
Username: maggienm
Post Number: 718
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, Aug 3, 2008 - 9:33 pm: | |
When your horses are reacting to the clover do they also get swollen or sensitive eyes?
In my area a sort of rash on the pasterns is thought to be part of clover poisoning. Do your horses get that also?
Thanks |
Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 2586
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, Aug 3, 2008 - 9:38 pm: | |
Lori now that you mention it there eyes have been sensitive and just a bit swollen, I never linked it to the clover though. I'm sure it's not the flies they have masks on sun up to sun down.
No pastern problems though, but they are only out about an hour a day, and that may be too much after Hanks episode today. |
Angie J.
Member
Username: ajudson1
Post Number: 1867
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, Aug 3, 2008 - 10:24 pm: | |
Are you all sure there are not weeds in the pastures? I just don't get this "drooling, rash, sensitive eyes" stuff. Never saw it and I have more clover than anything. Of course it's ate down pretty well now, what I need it some DUST FREE hay thank you very much!
Diane,
Do you mow your pastures? Put any weed killer on them? Fertilizer? I know we have some kind of weed that is been a problem just the last couple of years and some people rash up from it.
Hope you get to the source of the drools at least!
Geesh, but weren't horses supposed to be fun? |
Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 2587
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, Aug 3, 2008 - 10:48 pm: | |
The pasture is short and weed free. This is the first year EVER they have had the drools and they are bad...it is definitely the clover causing that....it is a well known phenomonon. I think is because of all the rain and humidity. They had been on 24/7 pasture until the mega drools and bloat started. I'm glad I had the good sense to remove them from it, or I think I would have had some colics and maybe founder again!
Their eyes I think is just irritation from allergens.
No rash problems for my horses.
They are fun!!! Until..... |
Lori
Member
Username: maggienm
Post Number: 719
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, Aug 5, 2008 - 12:05 pm: | |
As I understand 'clover poisoning', Dr. O please correct me if I get this wrong, it is not the clover itself but a fungus that grows on certain clovers, particularly Alsike or the short white clover.
What I am finding confusing is the mixed symptoms.
It seems some people have horses which react with drools, possible photo sensivity; some with gas, in my area clover poisoning is marked by scratches.
Is it all the same illness? Perhaps a slightly different fungus with different symptoms?
Possible some symptoms weren't noticed or noticed but not attributed to the clover poisoning?
Does anyone know if the fungus responds to certain weather conditions? Once it is present can you kill it?
I have noticed that when the clover first appears in the spring my horses seem to really like it but now in mid summer they avoid it. Maybe it has the fungus and it tastes bad??
Can you see the fungus with your eye? |
Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 2601
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, Aug 5, 2008 - 4:19 pm: | |
Lori, I'm confused I always thought the pastern problem was called "Dew poisoning" Which could go hand in hand with the clover problems, considering it usually is a wet year when you get the Drools...but not always. I think Alsike clover is bad for horses period. Alsike clover is what causes the photo sensitivity in some horses but the white clover is ok...I'm starting to wonder though!
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1681272
Our white clover turns black...I take for granted that's the mold/fungus? Our whole pasture is full of it this year, they can't take a bite without getting some.
http://hubpages.com/hub/Clover-Slobbers |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 21166
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, Aug 6, 2008 - 11:05 am: | |
I was hoping to have the article up on legumes by today to address these issues but like so often happens I have backed up and rewritten several related articles to provide an integrated approach. So let's deal with one of the issues above: alsike clover poisoning vs slobbers. Yes these are both poisoning by clovers, therfore could be both called clover poisoning, but different toxins with different clinical signs. As I use the terms I call slobbers clover poisoning and the other alsike poisoning. Yes alsike poisoning can predispose to "dew poisoning" on horses with white legs. For more on these run a search on "Slobbers" and "Alsike Clover". The articles on these diseases should be the first link in the results. That article on legumes is coming along but slowly, look for it soon.
I have long been confused about the relation between slobbers and white clovers. Though it is often said this is a problem with red and crimson clovers Diane is not the first to report the problem with white clover. I still occasionally reference white clovers as resistant based on readings but like Diane I wonder to.
DrO |
Lori
Member
Username: maggienm
Post Number: 722
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, Aug 6, 2008 - 11:52 am: | |
Ok, so there is more than one type of clover poisoning. Well, that explains a lot.
yes, looking forward to the article.
Thank you again for taking the time to prepare the articles.
They are a very valuable resource. |
Angie J.
Member
Username: ajudson1
Post Number: 1871
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Aug 6, 2008 - 12:58 pm: | |
Hmmmm.....I seed red clover in my pasture every other spring. And now that the pastures are pretty well ate down, I see white clover coming.
I am anxious for the total updated articles, DrO. I do have one slobber puss, Tango of course,(part raccoon) and I do see some bloating too but nothing new. Of course now that I've read about here; it will be a problem for my horses too! |
Lee
Member
Username: paul303
Post Number: 1153
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 7, 2008 - 2:01 am: | |
Yep, I need to see it too. I've been treating scratches ( mud fever, dew poisoning, whatever )since mid-June, for the first time in my 40 some odd years with horses. And, the thing is....after four years on my farm, the pasture came in mostly white clover this year. I have a pink skinned leopard app. I noticed it on her first. Then, after a couple of days, I thought to check my sorrel and chestnut QH mares. I was shocked to see that they had it, too. The only thing they have in common is, the alsike clover infested pasture.
This year, in my area of S. Jersey, it is dry, dry, dry. I'm pretty sure that we will get no second cutting of hay in the hayfield. My pasture is irrigated and green, but there is an abundance of white clover, and I'm limiting grazing to about 2 hours or less a day, and that is in the evening after the sun goes down. My app mare is getting lesions on her ( pink ) nose when exposed to the sun and pasture...I'm coating her muzzel with sunscreen. This never happened before. Only this year with all the clover.
I started out having to treat 9 legs for scratches each day. It's now down to 4 legs, but I do constantl7y check the "clear" legs. When, at first, I got some response to the novalsan wash, drying, triple antibiotic + cortizone and Desitin...early on, so I eased up and began to treat every other day....NO GOOD. MAN, this stuff is tough to treat.
I have to wonder, does this mean no pasture as long as it is heavily populated with white clover? |
Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 2612
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 7, 2008 - 6:31 am: | |
I had to take mine completely off pasture, even an hour grazing was bloating them and the slobbers after just an hour was terrible and lasted a good 12 hrs.
Dr.O. would mowing the tops off the clover help? |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 21170
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 7, 2008 - 7:00 am: | |
Guys the articles I am working on is on legumes and nutrition, we already have complete current articles on scratches, alsike clover poisoning, and slobbers already.
DrO |
Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 2615
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 7, 2008 - 7:30 am: | |
Thanks Dr.O. I found it, but had to really look. under GI diseases. I kept looking in forages.
Thanks looking forward to your article. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 21174
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 7, 2008 - 11:36 am: | |
Being GI diseases this would be the logical place Diane but a simple search brings the articles up at the top of the page. I will provide links to these articles in the new legume article which should make finding them easier.
DrO |
Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 2624
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Aug 8, 2008 - 8:28 pm: | |
I mowed 1/3 of the pasture and let the clover "dry up" for a day, put up a temporary electric fence.
Horses got their hour out (for a test) and no slobbers or bloat!  . At least they can go out a little now.
Thanks |
