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Shannon Steketee
New Member
Username: stek
Post Number: 1
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, Oct 2, 2008 - 12:21 pm: |   |
First let me thank Dr. O and the contributors to this site, I have been a regular reader for the last 6 months or so and have found it very informative.
Now to my question (long post warning):
We have a new boarder who is very new to horse ownership. Her horse has several confirmation faults causing him to toe in severely on the front end, among other things. He is also very flat footed and thin soled (confirmed with recent x-rays). She is aware of these problems and took him on as a 'pity case' hoping to at best get him sound enough for occasional light trail use. at worst at least rescue him from a situation where he was very unhappy; he had been stall kept and given no attention for the last 6 years, was bought as a jumping prospect and didn't work out due to his confirmation problems.
The horse has been with us for a month and showed remarkable improvement over that time, going from being gimpy at the walk to being able to trot and canter around the pasture with the rest of the herd.
He was trimmed last Saturday by a 'barefoot trimmer' who I have since discovered only has a couple years' experience. She severely lamed the horse to the point where he was not able to walk. She told the horse's owner that this is normal and she should expect the horse to be quite sore for about a week.
When looking at the trim it looked like she was trying to correct the horse's confirmation faults with this trim, and drastically changed the way he was loading his hooves and the angles of his joints. That combined with the fact that she left him standing completely on his frogs (no hoof wall or heel left to speak of) caused the lameness.
I contacted the person who did the trim to let her know how bad the horse was, and she is denying responsibility. She says the lameness is caused by a severe case of thrush (neither the vet nor I can see it) and laminitis caused by his diet (this 1200 pound Hanoverian was gradually over the last month worked up to free choice grass hay and 1 pound of high fat concentrate per day).
It seems obvious to me that the trimmer (I can't bring myself to call her a farrier) is at fault. While I accept that in some cases a horse might be a little tender for a day or so after a too-short trim, Grade 4 lame for a week is NEVER acceptable.
My question (finally!) is this: could this aggressive trim have caused laminitis or done some other long term damage I should be looking out for? I have thankfully never been in this situation before.
The horse is on bute and is now able to take about 1-foot long strides. I recommended boots but the owner hasn't brought them yet and none of mine fit him.
Thanks in advance for any advice. |
jojo
Member
Username: jojo15
Post Number: 1020
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Oct 2, 2008 - 1:24 pm: | |
SHANNON, I've heard this all too many times. Sadly, she probably did trim too aggressively. And that is not how many of us that believe in putting our horses barefoot have them trimmed. Its also sadly why many of us learn to trim our own horses. But i don't think you will see any serious long term damage unless she totally butchered the poor thing. Well, not from what i've heard in the past or seen.
boots are a great idea. for now. And bute too. and in a couple of weeks you should see him bounce back.
THis only happened to me once. Once is all it takes though isn't it.
The other question i have is was this horse shod previously and this is his first barefoot trim? First time without shoes? Because that will happen regardless if the trim was not aggressive in the least but the horse getting his "feeling" back in the hoof and he will likely look/be lame for a few weeks after taking shoes off for the first time. |
Shannon Steketee
New Member
Username: stek
Post Number: 2
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, Oct 2, 2008 - 1:44 pm: | |
Hi Jos, thanks for your reply. This horse has been barefoot for the last 6 years, I agree that when transitioning from shoes to barefoot one would expect some soreness.
I do agree with keeping horses barefoot who can tolerate it. Mine are both barefoot and gravel-crunching sound; I have been trimming them myself for the last couple years as one grows very slowly and the other needs a tweak every couple weeks. I am amazed at how much differently I now look at feet now .. just goes to show you how much more there always is to learn! 
I am still suggesting to this owner that we keep the horse barefoot since he was doing well before the trim. IMO he needs a good 3-4 months of just turnout to learn how to start using himself again and develop some natural muscle tone; hopefully his feet will improve with increased stimulation of turnout too.
You are right .. once is all it takes. Thanks again for your input. |
Shannon Steketee
New Member
Username: stek
Post Number: 3
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, Oct 2, 2008 - 1:46 pm: | |
OOPS .. I meant thanks Jojo .. not Jos :-)} |
Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 2920
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Oct 2, 2008 - 3:39 pm: | |
Hi Shannon, I have had that happen a couple times years ago, and unfortunately one did founder from it.
If the horse is a thin souled beast it may help to tape the construction grade styrofoam on for awhile. Boots with pads would work also.
Iodine, or betadine, personally I am real fond of durasole to toughen up the soles.
My horse was trimmed to short awhile ago too, but he has very problematic hooves anyway! He was so sore I had him shod for 6 weeks, he went from VERY gimpy to sound with the shoes. He is back barefoot and doing well.
If the owner doesn't want to deal with boots or styrofoam shoes are a good (easy) option until the hoof grows out. |
Angie J.
Member
Username: ajudson1
Post Number: 2020
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Oct 2, 2008 - 3:51 pm: | |
Shannon,
Yikes! Other than keeping the horse comfortable, there is not much more you can do as his hoofs will have to grow out again. They will grow of course, but watching and waiting stinks, been there, done that.
I've been studying barefoot trimming for about 1 1/2 years, doing my 4 that long. Stories like yours make me madder than H***! NO one should ever make a horse sore after a trim. I wouldn't be upset at a little "gimpiness" afterwards if the trimmer made a mistake, but you are not talking about a little gimpiness here.
Can you post some pictures? Showing the hoofs from the side, heels, and bottom? I'd love to see them, if for nothing else to make sure I never make such a mistake on my own! Maybe we can see if it's just a matter of being to short, or being too much angle change at once, or what.
He will be fine in the long run I am pretty sure. Just may not like being trimmed again in the future.
Poor guy. |
Vicki Zaneis
Member
Username: vickiann
Post Number: 714
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, Oct 2, 2008 - 8:15 pm: | |
No good excuse to change so much at one time and make the horse miserable and at risk for laminitis. I have a boy who was going much as you described, toeing in, thin sole, flat feet. The problem was farrier work over the years. A good natural type farrier examined him and had me skip an entire trim time and then gradually took him from frequent lameness and rough going, toeing in especially on his right front to being sound for the first time in 12 years. The farrier does not believe in trying to correct conformational defects, which is what got this horse into difficulties in the first place when he was young. I am so sorry that he had to suffer through so many years. His entire demeanor is now different at 22-years of age. In the past I had a farrier that increasingly was laming this horse where he was in pain for a week at a time. I felt very fortunate that he never got laminitis. When he was going through those painful times I kept him on Bute for a few days to get him through the tough time and so he would keep moving and not favor one foot over another. |
Julie Masner
Member
Username: juliem
Post Number: 483
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Oct 2, 2008 - 10:27 pm: | |
Inexcusable, if the trim caused the lameness. Did she trim off any sole? Trying to change angles on an adult horse will only result in more problems. Research has shown this is not possible after a few months of age. He toes in--he must be trimmed accordingly. Not trimmed to look as if he doesn't or to make him straight. Can't happen, will damage the horse. He should be kept on very soft ground or bedding or as recommended above, stryofoam pads or boots, until he's comfortable. If I called any of the farriers I work with after a trim and said the horse is sore, that farrier would be at my place asap to check things out! I would not let this person touch my horse again. |
CherylA
Member
Username: canderso
Post Number: 435
Registered: 3-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Oct 3, 2008 - 7:55 am: | |
This is the third time this week I have heard about barefoot trimmers using diet (too much sugar) and thrush as an excuse for post-trim lameness.
Dr O - two questions:
1)How bad would thrush have to be to cause lameness? What are the signs (other than lameness)?
2)Is it possible for diet to directly cause lameness, without some interim issue such as laminitis being present? |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 21465
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Friday, Oct 3, 2008 - 8:54 am: | |
Hello Shannon,
If the horse exercises too much on thin soles, the inflammation can create a founder like situation that results in rotation. For more on proper treatment to help prevent this see, Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Problems Following Shoeing or Trimming.
CherylA, you will find a thorough discussion of thrush and clinical signs at Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Thrush. I am not sure exactly how to answer the last question. Explain what you mean by "directly causing lameness".
DrO |
Aileen
Member
Username: sunny66
Post Number: 2198
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Friday, Oct 3, 2008 - 9:48 am: | |
I've learned one thing, if you bute, BOOT! They don't feel the pain and can cause more damage. I would also put something (iodine or even betadine) on the sole to toughen it until the feet grow out.... and get a new trimmer... but you knew that!
ps... I've also used 2 diapers with duct tape if boots weren't available. Not cloth diapers, the breathable ones. |
Shannon Steketee
New Member
Username: stek
Post Number: 4
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Friday, Oct 3, 2008 - 11:28 am: | |
Thanks all for your input.
Diane, my first thought was shoes as well but it will be weeks before he has enough hoof to nail into. If you've ever seen a hoof that has broken way back to the nail holes after shoes are pulled, imagine that but all the way around.
Angie, I will snap some pics this weekend; basically she took away any and all hoof wall contact with the ground to leave him standing completely on his soles (we're not talking about a nice mustang roll here), and took down his heels so he was rocked back onto his frogs. In a sound horse with nice tough concave soles you might get away with that, but not with this guy. Pictures will be worth a thousand words, though.
Vicki I am curious: is it your new farrier that doesn't attempt to correct conformational faults with the trim, or the old one? In my experience (my gelding has one club foot, toes in on both fronts, and is 'windswept' behind but has never been lame a day) so long as the horse is using himself OK and is not lame I prefer not to try to change them once they are adults.
Julie the only thing this trimmer did that I agree with is she left the soles and bars alone. I know there is a lot of controversy about this; another of our boarders uses a barefoot trimmer who trims out the soles and bars more than I prefer, but the horses she works on are always sound after so I don't quibble. I say do what works for each horse. On mine, I follow their natural angles, never touch the sole unless it is shedding, and never touch the bars unless they are overgrown which does sometimes happen in the wet winter. In the summer they wear down naturally.
Again, I appreciate everyone's input and advice. I will ask again that his owner get him some boots, and barring that looks like styrofoam and duct tape for a while He is better on grass than hard ground so I think that will really help him. |
Vicki Zaneis
Member
Username: vickiann
Post Number: 715
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Friday, Oct 3, 2008 - 8:51 pm: | |
Shannon, the farrier who finally fixed my poor suffering boy respected his natural way of going and did not try to "correct" anything but took time to allow the horse to heal himself before beginning any trimming, and read the signs on the hooves before beginning. After the first trim, my horse was very much relieved and showed his gratefulness and relief. For years he had a strong mistrust and dislike of farriers in general because over the years they had only brought him pain. His release from pain was a couple of years ago. I only wish that it had not taken me so long to find a resolution. I tried my best and must be thankful that finally I did find the answer. |
Shannon Steketee
Member
Username: stek
Post Number: 6
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Monday, Oct 6, 2008 - 11:25 am: | |
Thanks for the clarification Vicki. Hopefully we'll get this boy turned around too.
We got a deluge this weekend so no pics, though the soft ground is really helping. I think this is the first time I've ever been grateful for mud! |
Vicki Zaneis
Member
Username: vickiann
Post Number: 721
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Monday, Oct 6, 2008 - 8:17 pm: | |
Good luck Shannon. I would love for many others to get the kind of help that I finally found for my old guy who now flies around like a youngster after so many years of pain and suffering, which effected his attitude and personality over a long period of time. In part, I got really lucky but it was hard to make the decisions that I did to continue to try new things because I liked my prior farrier very much as a human being. He simply did not have the knowledge or training to solve my horse's problems with his conventional farrier training, in spite of his good intentions. |
