Use the navigation bar above to access articles and more discussions on this topic.
| Author |
Message |
    
Susan Poulter
New Member
Username: spoulter
Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 - 11:29 am: |   |
We are looking at buying a horse from my daughters trainer of 5 years.This horse is 5 years old and is developing some good ground manners and skills. We are told he has good dressage potential, she has ridden him a couple of times and we can see the potential. However, my daughter, 12, riding for 7 years is a hunter/jumper. We do not know if he can jump. How do I go about negotiating a purchase price? She wants $5,500 for him currently. How do we protect ourselves without insulting our relationship? |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose
Post Number: 4199
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 - 11:45 am: | |
Would your daughter's trainer allow you to do a short term lease with the lease payments going towards purchase price of the horse if the horse works out? |
susmp
New Member
Username: spoulter
Post Number: 2
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 - 11:48 am: | |
Thanks for the suggestion. Is this a common practice? Who would be responsible for vet bills? |
LeeAnn McDonald
New Member
Username: realtor
Post Number: 4
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 - 12:04 pm: | |
Do you trust the trainer? If so what are their thoughts on the horses jumping ability? Has he been free jumped? If you free jump him through a chute then maybe it would give you an idea of his form, although my horse goes through the chute like an lunatic but jumps quite well with a rider. Also, can you take the horse for a trial, start with cross rails and some gymnastics to see the potential? If you ask for a month that should give you a really good idea. I did buy a horse from my coach and have never been happier because I know she will have to coach me on this horse.She thought it would be a good fit for me so I went with her judgement on this. Also with negotiating the price your trainer should be professional enough to realize it is "not personal" and deal with it as a business transaction. What do you think fair market value is for the horse? If you want a horse that will jump though I would make this your first priority because it doesn't matter what you pay for the horse if it doesn't work for what you want it will be a waste of money. |
susmp
New Member
Username: spoulter
Post Number: 3
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 - 12:35 pm: | |
We love the trainer, and believe she has my daughter's best interest in mind. He has jumped once through a chute, and like you say, was quite funny. He is really athletic, however any of progress has been the result of this very strong accomplished, male rider. He can make him do almost anything during a flat exercise. She has recommended a vet check but should I make it someone she doesn't know? How do you determine fair market value? We are so new at this. Your advise is greatly appreciated. |
Fran C
Member
Username: canter
Post Number: 1757
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 - 12:38 pm: | |
I leased my current horse from my trainer for 4 or 5 months prior to purchase. Everything is negotiable...who pays insurance, vet bills, etc. Be aware that the trainer, if serious about selling this horse, may actively campaign the horse while you lease it. The trainer should be honest about this and should give you "right of first refusal" if doing so. Also, I think if the trainer is concerned about the welfare of the horse and maintaining you as a client, she would not have an issue if you asked for a second opinion on the horses jumping ability.
As to negotiating price, check out the sales sites. Look for similar breeding, temparament, confirmation and training level. That should give you an idea of how much price you can negotiate without insulting anyone's intelligence. |
susmp
New Member
Username: spoulter
Post Number: 4
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 - 12:40 pm: | |
We love the trainer, and believe she has my daughter's best interest in mind. He has jumped once through a chute, and like you say, was quite funny. He is really athletic, however any of progress has been the result of this very strong accomplished, male rider. He can make him do almost anything during a flat exercise. She has recommended a vet check but should I make it someone she doesn't know? How do you determine fair market value? We are so new at this. Your advise is greatly appreciated. |
LeeAnn McDonald
New Member
Username: realtor
Post Number: 5
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 - 1:14 pm: | |
Ask the vet as to any conflict they may feel...I did have a vet when I bought my horse refuse as they were good friends with the horses owner. It also was my vet so I chose another vet from the same clinic. Definitely check the horse sites as to value but keep in mind all is negotiable. Can anyone tell I'm a realtor!!! LOL. I do think a trial would be good for you. My daughter is 11 years old and has ridden for approx. the same amount of time your daughter has so if it was me I would make sure the horse I bought has enough talent to progress with her throughout the next 5-6 years. As in everything nothing is ever a "sure thing" but getting a second opinion would also help. If you are even friends with any of the adults around the barn ask their opinion of the horse/rider combination but only ask in general terms not to get anyone in trouble! |
Shannon Steketee
Member
Username: stek
Post Number: 33
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 - 1:44 pm: | |
I personally would not consider a 5 year old horse who has only done flat work and is usually (from your post above) ridden by a very strong accomplished rider as the best match for a 12 year old girl who wants to do hunter-jumper. Even if your daughter is an excellent rider, I would think this horse will need quite a bit of time to get him going well for the hunter ring.
I would look for a horse that at least has some training over fences, but even better one with showing experience in the discipline you want to ride.
How does your daughter feel he is to handle? Has she ridden many green horses? If you are seriously considering him, I would lease first and have her take lessons on him, over at least small rails if possible. That will give her a better feel for what he will be like while he is learning to jump.
Best of luck in your horse search! |
Erika L
Member
Username: erika
Post Number: 1465
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 - 4:51 pm: | |
I'm a big believer in buying the horse you want, not the horse you hope it will be....works well for picking husbands, too.
Erika |
leslie christian
Member
Username: leslie1
Post Number: 459
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 - 5:05 pm: | |
...You got that right!
 |
Shannon Steketee
Member
Username: stek
Post Number: 34
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 - 5:22 pm: | |
Well said Erika, though I have no doubt my horses are more trainable than my husband!  |
susmp
New Member
Username: spoulter
Post Number: 5
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 - 5:51 pm: | |
As a first time poster, I am thrilled that so many of you gave me some great advise and lots of things to think about. I am so glad I found this site and decided to become a member.
Thank you, thank you. I am going to have my daughter read it too, sometimes I think she thinks I am trying to sabotage her. |
Guy Ramsey
Member
Username: gramsey1
Post Number: 12
Registered: 8-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 - 8:16 pm: | |
We purchased an off the track TB for our now 15 year old daughter from a trainer we trusted, and had worked with for several years.
Gosh kids change so much between 10 and 15. It is tough to predict what will be right across that time.
But Shannon's advice from 11/26 is excellent. If you can afford it.
If not read on.
Our relationship with the trainer fell apart. Our horse, a five year old, turned out to be too much for our daughter and the trainer. Our daughter was thrown by him in an explosive out burst.
The trainer offered to take the horse back, but offered no money for him. She said she would try to get rid of him for us. Our daughter was devastated and about to give up on horses and riding. She was not severely hurt . . . physically.
We left the trainer, found a new barn and a new trainer. She watched our daughter struggle with confidence and trust. She recommended starting over from the ground. Then there was healing.
We, including our daughter, learned that there are many trainers and styles of training. We might not make it into the hunter ring next summer, but my daughter has a safe and loyal horse, because the trainer recognized, they both needed to start over.
The other night working from the ground he followed my daughter over cross rails at a trot and stopped when she stopped, no halter, no rope. Then she raised her hand and said "okay get". And he cantered off around the ring. On the second lap, as he approached she put her arm down and called "Easy" and he slowed to a walk, moved up to her, stopped and put his head at her chest level, waiting for his praise and pat. This was, for my daughter, much more satisfying than any schooling show ribbons she had won the season before.
Under saddle he is quiet yet flashy, completely safe, working walk and trot, over poles and low cross rails.
He is not what he was when we purchased him, and is not what we hoped for. He is a life lesson.
My daughter is in love again . . . My wife and I say he is better than a boyfriend. |
susmp
Member
Username: spoulter
Post Number: 6
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, Nov 27, 2008 - 6:35 pm: | |
That is a wonderful story you have shared. Those moments are priceless. Unfortunately, or fortunately, she has had the accident already, different horse. She too had to start all over with her confidence. It is because of that accident that she is a better rider. I hope that her next horse, this one or not, provides the inspirational riding that your daughter obviously receives. |
Corinne Candice
Member
Username: corinne
Post Number: 1411
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, Nov 28, 2008 - 10:28 am: | |
Susan...always always always get a vet check prior to purchase. I have, as many on this forum have seen, individuals purchase horses from those they know without an exam and shortly after purchase severe health issues were discovered and it literally ruined the relationship between the trainer and the buyer. And vets should also know that there is a conflict of interest if they also have the trainer as a client and should not agree to do the exam, but if they do, I would politely say I would rather have a vet who did not have a relationship with the trainer examine this horse because whether they strive to remain impartial it's nearly impossible to do so if they have a good relationship with the trainer. It might not be intentional but they may be biased. Get the vet check from another vet, know it's the first rule in horse purchase and there are health issues discuss with the vet who did the exam whether or not those issues would impede the intentions you have with the horse. My horse for instance has an outturned right hind that he would stand with tucked under himself so he would not be good in the halter ring, however for dressage it has not affected us and in fact as he has muscled up with training he now stands square and gets us 8s on our halts in the dressage ring.
Good Luck with whatever you decide! |
Corinne Candice
Member
Username: corinne
Post Number: 1412
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, Nov 28, 2008 - 10:30 am: | |
PS. Welcome to HA, it will get you through your first horse purchase with peace of mind, providing sound scientific based research on horse health, while ensuring you make a few friends in the horse community as well! |
susmp
Member
Username: spoulter
Post Number: 7
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Friday, Nov 28, 2008 - 9:54 pm: | |
Thanks!! Horses..Expensive Advise...Priceless |
CherylA
Member
Username: canderso
Post Number: 440
Registered: 3-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, Nov 29, 2008 - 9:43 am: | |
Susan,
Let`s say you were looking for a microwave oven. If someone offered you a convection oven, would you buy it? Uh, no. Even if it was the same size and shape, heck even the same colour as your old microwave oven??? Still no - it is not what you were looking for.
Why then would you buy an untrained horse with `dressage` potential for your 12 year old daughter who wants to do hunter/jumper?
The horse market is incredibly depressed right now - there is a lot for sale and there aren`t many buyers. So draw up your list of requirements, figure out your non-negotiables and stick to them. You should be able to find something more than suitable for your daughter. |
Cheryl K
Member
Username: cheryl
Post Number: 391
Registered: 2-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, Nov 29, 2008 - 10:00 am: | |
I would like to toss in a caution here - You haven't said how you daughter feels about this horse - If it's a horse she has her heart set on I would be really careful about switching to another horse. My Uncle did that to my cousin - she had very little interest in the horse she ended up with - road her occasionally - for the most part the horse was totally ignored. If your daughters heart isn't set on this horse - that's a different story but 12 yo girls tend to fall in love with "their" horse - Just something to think about.
Cheryl |
susmp
Member
Username: spoulter
Post Number: 8
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, Nov 29, 2008 - 11:07 am: | |
My daughter adores this horse. It was at a barn we started riding long ago. This horse was owned with another, by a young woman who never rode. We went to Canada for a year and returned home and to a different barn, same trainer (she owns this barn). Unbelieveably, while we were in Canada, our current trainer purchased the horse. My daughter has this amazing connection with this horse, she can do things with him that noone else can. It was only offered to us, after I explained to our trainer that we were starting to look for a horse. She is totally protective of her horses, about 25 at this time. She bought this horse because of his potential to fit into her program. He is amazing. She was surprised to hear that my daughter was willing to step back and not want a horse that was at her level. Our trainer is wonderful at helping her students be well rounded and dressage is in my daughters life but jumping is what she loves to do in the shows. How does anyone know if a horse has jumping potential? We also wanted to have a horse as the earlier poster said, to have for her to take to college with her into a equine science program. She is prepared to start over with training this horse. She is such a good technical rider but she wants a relationship with a horse and not just first place ribbons. I am so confused! |
Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 3226
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, Nov 29, 2008 - 11:43 am: | |
susmp I stay out of discussion pertaining to dressage and hunter/ jumpers....know enough to be dangerous and that's about it.
That said I remember the 1st pony I wanted some 40 years ago. I had my parents go look at him and they said NO WAY, he was a terrible pony, green broke and spunky! I begged, I cried...I LOVED the pony!!
The guy at the barn I wanted to but the pony from said he would help me with the pony. After much begging and paying for the pony myself I was the proud owner of the little wild one.
We learned to jump, barrel race, pole bend, dressage, you name it together. He was the best and I showed him in small shows and kicked butt in everything!!! IF your daughter has a connection with this horse, really wants him and you think he is SAFE, I would be inclined to agree with the ones that say give it a try. ANY horse can jump! If he doesn't work out sell him and lesson learned. OR start collecting horses like the rest of us!!!
I learned so much from that pony, we had a connection and I still think of him fondly! |
Cheryl K
Member
Username: cheryl
Post Number: 393
Registered: 2-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, Nov 29, 2008 - 2:26 pm: | |
If your daughter loves this horse - I would let her make the decision. What level jumping is your daughter aiming for? If she wants to event, maybe do some stadium jumping and this is an athletic horse - he should do just fine. If she wants to end up doing 7 foot fences - whatever you get for her is going to cost a lot more than $5,000 - Her connection with the horse is way more important than what the horse knows right now. Just look at it this way - as long as the love of her life has four legs and eats a lot of hay you are way ahead of a whole bunch of parents |
Susanne Ryder
Member
Username: sryder11
Post Number: 51
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, Nov 29, 2008 - 4:40 pm: | |
An experienced trainer can evaluate a horse's potential but you also never know how much he can do or how much he likes it until he gets into training. If she loves the horse and gets along with him, I would just make sure she understands that the jumping potential is unknown and it might take time and a lot of work to get him to a point where she can jump courses and go to shows. Make sure it is not going to frustrate and upset her if all her friends are jumping around at the shows and this horse is still learning to jump cross rails. If she agrees to this and if the trainer thinks she gets along well enough with the horse and he is safe, like Diane says horse and rider can learn together. But definitely get the vet check! |
IKE
Member
Username: kriseyc
Post Number: 31
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, Dec 3, 2008 - 7:50 pm: | |
Hi, Susmp,
I have to agree about ABSOLUTELY having a vet check and purchasing a horse more suited to your daughter. I can sympathize with your daughter's special connection with the horse, and I never under estimate a horses nature to connect with certain children, BUT there are more 5 yr olds that are un-predictable than are predictable, and if your set on this young horse...I would definitely have AT LEAST a month trial.
Best of luck to you and your daughter. |
Angela Rary
Member
Username: angrary
Post Number: 14
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, Dec 4, 2008 - 2:37 am: | |
I wholeheartedly second the notion of asking for a trial period. If the trainer truly has the best interests of your daughter and this horse in mind, she should agree that this is the best solution for everyone involved. Maybe even consider a half-lease so the horse can continue in his training a couple days a week, so that if he does not work out for your daughter he will not have lost too much training time.
IMHO, $5000 is not an unreasonable price for a young horse showing some talent. If he was a sure thing, the price would be many times that. On the off chance he turns out to be a terrible jumper, you should still be able to get your money back selling him as a dressage prospect. |
Chris
Member
Username: stevens
Post Number: 633
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Dec 4, 2008 - 10:38 am: | |
If he turns out to be a terrible jumper don't bet on being able to pass him off as a dressage prospect.
The fundamental building blocks of any performance discipline is basic conformation and gaits. Why would a horse be a "terrible jumper"; maybe he can't adjust his stride, maybe he doesn't have the conformation that allows for sufficient push from the rear over a jump, maybe he isn't tractable and trainable or maybe he just doesn't like jumping. If it's anything other than the last of the above, he isn't going to be much of a dressage horse either.
I've seen many horses wash out of dressage and go on to be decent jumpers/hunters. I personally have never seen it go in the other direction other than exceptional jumpers who had been well trained moving into dressage as they got older. |
Angela Rary
Member
Username: angrary
Post Number: 17
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Friday, Dec 5, 2008 - 11:17 pm: | |
Chris, point taken, but I thought the original poster already stated that this horse has good dressage potential. Of course, I'm taking it at face value that the trainer is qualified to assess what compromises "good dressage potential," but from everything the original poster has said it seems that this trainer is knowledgeable and honest. While there are plenty of FEI level dressage horses out there who also would make top hunter/jumper type horses, I've also known many horses with excellent conformation, movement, and bloodlines who just do not make good jumping horses.
Take my friend Melissa's horse for example. She had a TB who was a fabulous event horse and could jump the moon, but the mare always was last place in dressage. This is despite intensive training with GP dressage trainers. The jumping came naturally to this horse, the dressage did not. So, she bred the mare to a really nice Hanoverian dressage stallion, hoping to get the perfect event horse. The baby, now in training with a GP dressage trainer, is showing excellent potential for dressage. However, her jumping/eventing coach says that the horse shows absolutely NO aptitude for jumping. The horse hates jumping, her form is terrible, and while she could certainly be trained to do it it does not come easily. Dressage however, suits her well.
I know of another case where a local dressage trainer and a hunter trainer traded horses. Each had a nice young prospect that seemed to have potential, but just was not working out for that disciple. Both were extremely pleased after the switch. Who knows why a nice looking young WB by Consul just coudn't seem to make it over fences? Certainly not a conformation issue. But he is showing a promising career in dressage (tho this was years ago- I don't know where these horses are now).
While theoretically an athletic horse can be good at any discipline, in reality not every nice dressage horse makes a great jumper, and vice versa.
Just my experiences, maybe yours have been different.
Respectfully,
Angela |
Susanne Ryder
Member
Username: sryder11
Post Number: 53
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, Dec 6, 2008 - 10:57 am: | |
Chris makes a good point when it comes to the upper levels, but we are talking about a kid's horse here who is probably going to go to local shows and sounds like he has possibilities to be an all-around horse maybe like the pony Diane described. At my barn we have both Western and 3-day event training and many times the horses get exposed to both plus trail riding and what they wind up doing is more a question of what the owner likes. The Western trainer has a warmblood prospect at present who would make a great dressage horse but the owner wants to ride Western! A couple of the Western trainer's horses have been schooled by the event trainer and taken to novice level events just for experience. It's great to see these horses learn and develop versatility. |
CherylA
Member
Username: canderso
Post Number: 441
Registered: 3-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, Dec 6, 2008 - 12:43 pm: | |
OK time to be blunt.... Dunno about where you are but around where I live 'showing dressage potential' is:
- a jump coach's way of saying the horse can't jump and/or goes lame when it jumps.
- an event coach's way of saying the horse isn't forward and/or isn't brave.
- a western rider's way of saying the horse bucks.
- a dressage coach's excuse to add a zero to the price!!! |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose
Post Number: 4237
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, Dec 6, 2008 - 1:08 pm: | |
Cheryl, SO TRUE!!  For a western rider it also means the horse is built so he carries his head too high and he moves too fast. Of course, these could also make him a "jumping prospect!"
Quite awhile ago didn't someone post a list of terms and discriptions and how they should be interpreted when you see them in a "horse for sale" ad? As I recall, they all rang true.
All that being said, at the lower levels, most horses can compete in many different events and do o.k. It all depends on what level the competition is at. |
Chris
Member
Username: stevens
Post Number: 634
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, Dec 6, 2008 - 9:44 pm: | |
I think we're all in violent agreement. I especially agree with Cheryl, although she forgot to add "light in front" as the synonym for rearing :-)
I think it was Lynn Palm who said, or at least quoted someone as saying that all horses should be trained as if they were dressage horses for the first few years and then specialize.
My own horse spent some time at a jumping trainer because the previous owner thought that he didn't like doing dressage. Turned out he had a gastric ulcer and after treatment was able to compete at Prix St. Georges. He also jumped 5 feet easily. He's been laid up for 1 year plus (sigh!) for a tendon tear but still looks like a million bucks. Good breeding, good genes, great conformation. |
