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Susan - Lancaster County PA
New Member
Username: shellys
Post Number: 1
Registered: 1-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, Jan 11, 2009 - 5:13 pm: |   |
Hello everyone! I am brand new to this list and have been reading like crazy, but there is so much information, I will never be able to cover it all. I am located in Lancaster County, PA. I have a 4 1/2 yo palomino QH mare. Purchased one year ago as a bit of a rescue as the woman (and I use the term loosely) who was acting as the agent for the seller was going to ship her to the local auction to recoup her out of pocket 'training' expenses. Long story short, she's green, rather mare-ish, and has this annoying loose manure which comes and goes without apparent reason, but is present 80% of the time to one degree or another. I've had chiropractic and acupuncture treatment, although that was aimed at sore back issues. I've tried to track if it is associated with her heat cycles and thought at first it was, but now it does not seem exclusive to that issue. I have had the vet out to investigate recently and she drew blood and ran tests (but I need to get a copy of what all she ran) which came back normal. No whacky enzymes stuff, no disease, etc. Final recommendation was to put her on a clay supplement to try to 'cement' her manure and absorb moisture, but the stuff is $40. per container and it doesn't last even one month so that's out of the question. I want to know the cause and other treatment options. She had also been ultra-sounded early on in relation to her back, and her reproductive system looked perfectly normal during that procedure. We were ruling out some kind of tumor or cyst that could be affecting her back. The back is fine now BTW, probably more related to over-training and mishandling. But she has what I consider a worsening problem with liquid manure running down her leg, over her hock and all the way down to her fetlock. I wash her off every single day to keep her skin from becoming irritated and wash her tail several times a week even if it is only rinsed in water. As you can imagine, this is really ugly on a palomino, but more importantly, I am very concerned that this has continued and worsened over the past year. Her feed has not changed, her hay has not changed, her bedding and pasture have not changed. She did have this when I first purchased her, but to a lesser degree. She is in light to moderate work. I am adding shredded beet pulp to her ration beginning today. Only 1 cup 1 X day to start and then will increase. But how much is enough or too much? She only gets about 2 quarts of concentrate per day divided into two feedings, but I would have to weigh it to be sure how much it is. She is boarded and I have left that up to the barn owner who adjusts it based on body condition and weather. She is in good condition, not overly fat or thin. She did have a problem with a heavy stongyles load even though it did not show in her condition, but she was treated with a Power Pack about 5 weeks ago, retested and is clean. I had hoped it was related to the worm load but now that diagnosis does not seem to hold up either.
Sorry for the length of this post but I'm hoping someone will be able to shed some light on this perplexing problem. Any and all questions and advise will be most appreciated!
Thanks so much!
Susan} |
PattyB
Member
Username: pattyb
Post Number: 89
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, Jan 11, 2009 - 6:48 pm: | |
Hi Susan....and welcome from another relative newcomer.
Have you ever treated her for sand? My older mare had similar problems when she was over 30 and it helped quite a bit to give her Sand Clear for seven days monthly, sometimes at double dose. Sand or grit in their gut causes irritation but it doesn't readily pass with the manure, just kind of sits there and builds up over time. Maybe check with your vet to see if it would be a good idea to try that with her. The product should be stocked in any feed/supply store.
Good luck and keep us posted. |
Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 3535
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, Jan 11, 2009 - 6:49 pm: | |
Susan what is your horses complete diet...include everything, pasture also that might help us.
If you haven't read this article it might help you, plus there are many threads associated with it. Seems to be a fairly common problem.
http://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/4/5275.html |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose
Post Number: 4417
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, Jan 11, 2009 - 9:03 pm: | |
Welcome, Susan. Diane beat me to asking what the mare's eating. I've had horses that can't eat rich feed, especially alfalfa, without getting chronic "runs." Also, if a horse is nervous and anxious it will often get "the runs." Glad you took this mare in; I'm sure you'll find out what her problem is with a little "digging." |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 22095
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 - 7:54 am: | |
Welcome Susan,
If parasitism was the cause it may take longer than 5 weeks for the bowel to completely recover. The clay (varieties of smectite) treatment does not actually cement the stools together but is thought to work by absorbing bacterial toxins and possibly have some direct anti-inflammatory action on the bowel wall. These toxins cause the bowel to secrete more fluid, loosening the stool. Let me refer you to the ONE article you do need to read and digest to get you started on a track that may lead to a diarrhea free horse, Diseases of Horses » Colic, Diarrhea, GI Tract » Diarrhea in Horses » Diarrhea an Overview.
DrO |
Susan - Lancaster County PA
New Member
Username: shellys
Post Number: 2
Registered: 1-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jan 14, 2009 - 8:58 pm: | |
OK, I'm back. Had some navigation issues! I actually wrote all of this out and wanted to edit it so I hit 'cancel post' and lost everything. I'm too tired now to recreate the entire message so here is the quick and dirty. Did another fecal and it was positive so am retreating with Quest this time. Will run another fecal in 10 to 14 days and see where we are. Meanwhile I'm adding some things to her diet to try to treat the symptoms. Beet pulp, yogurt, diatomaceous earth.
Her feed is timothy hay three times a day and a 12% textured feed from a local feed mill. Pasture turnout daily. Overgrazed pastures with very short to nonexistent grass.
More tests are also being run for giardia and another one I can't pronounce to rule those out (hopefully).
Gotta run, please keep those suggestions coming!
Thanks
Susan |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose
Post Number: 4437
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jan 14, 2009 - 9:21 pm: | |
I know you said she was ultra-sounded and her reproductive system looked fine, but has she had any blood work done to test hormonal levels. Sometmes if a mare is having hormonal imbalance problems she will have chronic diarrhea. |
elk
Member
Username: ekaufman
Post Number: 794
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jan 14, 2009 - 9:32 pm: | |
Have you walked the pasture to look for weeds? Sometimes when pastures are over-grazed, horses will eat things that they normally would ignore (also trees, fences, etc.).
I would start removing things from her diet to try to rule things out. If it were me, I might start with the 12% feed, and then try moving her to drylot or a short period of confinement to see if she's eating something weird and disruptive in the pasture. I'd suspect the timothy hay last, but I suppose I'd find a way to isolate that option as well. I'd try to resist the urge to give her more stuff to ingest, since it may cause new GI trouble on top of the current one.
If the fecal shows parasites, that's an obvious possible cause. Sounds like you're on top of that one. |
PattyB
Member
Username: pattyb
Post Number: 90
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jan 14, 2009 - 9:41 pm: | |
Hi Susan....and thanks for the update.
I'm really glad to see you are testing for giardia. My older mare had that and it was found while looking for the source of her cow piles. But I do have one question: Giardia is quite tricky to find as the "swimmers" they look for die off very quickly. To find it in my horse, I grabbed a "sample" from the barn and had it at the local vet's within 20 minutes. If the manure isn't tested quickly, there can be no swimmers left to find. That all leads me to my question----> how quickly can they test your sample so they can be sure to see it if that is what you're dealing with? On the truck and tested later that day has a very good chance of giving a false negative. Just food for thought.................. |
Susan - Lancaster County PA
New Member
Username: shellys
Post Number: 3
Registered: 1-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 15, 2009 - 8:18 am: | |
Wow, all very good thoughts. I have requested a copy of her tests to see what was actually tested for so I will look at the hormone level suggestion.
Pasture is extremely short and with a dozen+ horses rotating through it, actually 3 different pastures, there isn't time for much of anything to grow. I have noticed that when I hand graze her outside of the pasture, she has a preference for narrow leafed plantain when it's late fall and the grass isn't really growing any longer. I don't see any other weeds like chicory or something that is unusual. Anyone have a list of toxic weeds for the eastern seaboard?
As to the giardia, I grabbed fresh and ran it to the vet immediately, but they send it out and if it is as 'fragile' as you say, then it will be coming back negative. I will mention this to my vet and see what she says.
I understand what is being said about not adding things to the diet, but withdraw one by one to eliminate possibilities. I feel that we are going in the right direction with the worm issue and I am trying to give her supportive treatment to sooth the bowel and eliminate the excess water. Am I barking up the wrong tree?
I'll keep everyone posted. Apparently I can't deworm her until after the extreme cold snap has moderated here. Vet says that Quest can cause colic and not to administer during extreme weather or changes.
Thanks!,
Susan |
Susan - Lancaster County PA
New Member
Username: shellys
Post Number: 4
Registered: 1-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 15, 2009 - 8:50 am: | |
Hi again,
I'm trying to get some pictures of my problem posted but am having difficulty completing the attachment process. Apparently my file is too large so I have to figure out how to make it smaller. I'm trying again later! "~) Susan |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 22117
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 15, 2009 - 9:09 am: | |
I have to question one of your treatments: diatomaceous earth is not indicated that I know of. If the idea is for parasites, current research shows it is not effective. Also I am not aware of any mare hormonal disorders that present as chronic diarrhea.
As to pathogenesis of the different forms of diarrhea and how treatment might work review the "Overview of Diarrhea" article.
DrO |
PattyB
Member
Username: pattyb
Post Number: 92
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 15, 2009 - 9:48 am: | |
Susan....one last thought as I run out the door: My horse vet's clinic is an hour away so I took the sample to my small animal vet (called first) just 20 minutes away. Everything was negative for worms but she did she the giardia swimmers. Once I treated her for that, she improved right away.
Good luck, will be watching for updates. |
