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Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66
Post Number: 920
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, Aug 7, 2005 - 11:25 pm: |   |
It's been suggested to me that I should put my horse on flax (boiled to make the oil). She said that she sees many easy keepers not look so bloated and more streamlined when on it for 3 or 4 months.
She also told me to add alfalfa to his diet...these things are not making sense to me. Alfalfa and oil are added to gain weight...correct?
Is there any merit to this? Or is she thinking my horse may have epsm? |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 13486
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Monday, Aug 8, 2005 - 6:08 am: | |
Hello Aileen,
There seems to be some confusion here over a horse with a hay belly and one who is carrying a lot of fat. The above diet would reduce the hay belly if the amount of lower nutrient density forage were reduced but you are right, it should not be fed to a horse with excessive condition. For more on judging condition see Care for Horses » Particular Situations & Procedures » Weight, Condition, and Eventual Height Estimation.
DrO |
Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66
Post Number: 921
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Monday, Aug 8, 2005 - 10:49 am: | |
Thanks Dr. O,
According to the vet's that have seen him...
1. He was a 6-7 on the scale in February/March/April - he was getting 11-12 pounds of hay.
2. He was a 7 on the scale in May...getting 9 pounds of hay
3. and most recent...he's an 8 on the scale in July - getting 8 pounds of hay.
This is your description of No. 8:
Crease down back is prominent. Ribs difficult to feel due to fat in between. Wither area is filled with fat and very soft fat over tailhead. The space behind the shoulders is filled in and flush, and there is fat along the inner buttocks.
He has no crease, but the last vet did say that he's lost muscle and that's why he has no crease. I can feel the ribs without pushing him over - but it is definately spongy. The wither area is not filled with fat, but he does have fat behind his shoulders. The tailhead actually looks better to me...unless he's got so much fat that it's all filled in and looks smooth. He has no fat on the inner buttocks.
I've been DECREASING the feed throughout this period and he seems to be gaining weight. I just don't understand this and I don't know what to do.
Is he still in danger of foundering if there is no more green grass left in the pasture? There is very little...I'm seeing a lot of dirt now, whatever grass is there is dead.
He has plenty of energy and is getting quite piggy at meal times...but I'm guessing that's because he's hungry.
Should I just work him on the lunge since he's been sound now for 2 weeks or so? |
Shirley A. Johnson
Member
Username: Shirl
Post Number: 243
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Monday, Aug 8, 2005 - 1:17 pm: | |
Aileen, have you had him tested for Cushings or I.R.? Might do that, has some of the symptoms. She Dr. O's web site on that for more info.
Shirl |
Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66
Post Number: 922
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Monday, Aug 8, 2005 - 2:17 pm: | |
Hi Shirley,
I did ask about it Shirley, but he was not tested, the last vet said that since he was in excellent condition in January, she wasn't going to look for IR or anything else.
I had also asked another vet about IR (not cushings though he has a very thin coat and sheds normally and a lot...very araby..  )
He said that IR is the new rage in veterinary medicine and to not worry about IR, but start from the beginning with diet and exercise.
He had a cbc done recently, and all was normal on it, at least it didn't raise any suspicions. |
Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66
Post Number: 923
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Monday, Aug 8, 2005 - 2:26 pm: | |
Vet just called. He said OHHH not good on him getting fatttter... He said that it could be thyroid, but there aren't any really good tests for it. He said that I could put him on the lowest dose and see what that does for him. Thoughts?
He also said that I can canter him to the left only for a little while on BIG circles. Walk and Trot to the right with maybe one circle of canter to the right to help get the weight off. He said to be conservative and to use my good judgement. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 13491
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, Aug 9, 2005 - 7:08 am: | |
Nonsense on the thyroid, if IR is all the rage today, hypothyroid was all the rage for the past 30 years and, unlike IR which is based on good science, is mostly total nonsense. Aileen if your horse is still gaining weight and if you judge him as fatter than you want him he is receiving more calories than he is burning and you need to feed him less. Logical ways to do this are addressed in both the article on Overview of Nutrition and Fat or Obese Horse Nutrition.
DrO |
Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66
Post Number: 924
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, Aug 9, 2005 - 8:38 am: | |
Thanks Dr. O, three vets say not to reduce his feed anymore. He's a big horse and is already only getting 8 pounds of hay per day ...total...four pounds in the morning and 4 pounds at night -- orchard grass. Since he responded to gastroguard, I really don't want to reduce him anymore. I'm just going to wait him out. I did start him on a selinium/vit. E supplement this weekend. I'll see if that helps even his metabolism out...don't think so though.
I worked him last night and he was raising his had at the downward transitions (trot to walk). So I'm not going to canter him and very little trot...if any.
Based on my description of his condition vs. your condition level #8 do you feel he is an 8? |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 13496
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, Aug 9, 2005 - 9:13 am: | |
No that sound more like a 6 and 1/2. How much pasture does he get (quality and time).
DrO |
Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66
Post Number: 925
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, Aug 9, 2005 - 9:27 am: | |
Good! Ok, then with my limited knowledge we'll call it a 7 phew!
14 hours turnout, but what's left is dead now. A lot of dirt showing. No, he didn't eat it all ... I had the other horses working on it
There's enough there for him to nibble on and *think* he's eating but that's it. |
Susan Bilsky
Member
Username: Suzeb
Post Number: 434
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, Aug 9, 2005 - 11:18 am: | |
How about a picture of Mr. Butterball  .
Given the lameness issues that Brave has had and the time off from exercising it is understandable that he has lost condition in some parts (muscle) and gained it elsewhere (haybelly).
It happens to us humans too . Do you ever check his girth size from time to time? Do you know his weight?
Eleven hundred pounds of muscle compared to eleven hundred pounds of fat can make your horse look like two totally different creatures.
Go through Dr.O's articles on Nutrition and see where you could add or take away.
When that pasture is finally burned out, you will be back to the hay again and 8lbs will not be enough.
If your winter feed is going to be orchard grass only, you could add some alfalfa pellets as his "grain".
Susan B. |
Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66
Post Number: 926
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, Aug 9, 2005 - 5:35 pm: | |
Ok Don't mind the dirt...Here's today
Here's July 23
 |
Ann
Member
Username: Dres
Post Number: 571
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, Aug 9, 2005 - 6:12 pm: | |
he maybe a little 'chunky' but he sure has a nice bloom on him... up his walking, make him use himself/ vs. just walking like a lazy horse...get him to march out using his back and stomach muscles...
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with SPOTS.. |
Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66
Post Number: 927
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, Aug 9, 2005 - 6:28 pm: | |
Thanks Ann, I'll email you...need some help
Susan, he was 1160 pounds July 15. Vet taped him. I put his western saddle on him a few days ago and had to let down the cinch! That said though, he hasn't had a saddle on him since the end of November. |
joj
Member
Username: Jojo15
Post Number: 588
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Aug 9, 2005 - 6:49 pm: | |
Aileen, my girl is looking ALOT like your guy... its the past the ribcage toward the flank that has me going he is thick in there like brandy. and his neck does it feel TIGHT to the touch? I keep saying brandy is pre-cushionoid but of course my vet is always out for something else more critical at the time.... This past time he noticed the crest and said has this alway been there? yup.... From everything i read too vs. actually it working are quite different. I don't work her much because we are both so out of shape and i haven't the room for a true lunge. (regardless she has never lunged)... When it stops raining i am going to post a pic of her. and we can compare who is the fattest....
All joking aside, i am learning as long as the feet are well taken care of, she isn't getting too hot a feed, equine senior with T+A ( i do feed alfalfa as a treat) has alot of walking around time, good productive time. and not really lush pasture. A few supplements, and ALWAYS worm on time. this is the best way to keep cushings within control... So whether or not he really does have it. The response would be the same. |
Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66
Post Number: 928
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, Aug 9, 2005 - 10:55 pm: | |
Thanks Joj, it's not his neck they're concerned with, they actually said his neck is fine...it's everywhere else...I certainly hope he doesn't have cushings!
I have finally gotten his feet figured out...I HOPE!...and he gets no sweet feed whatsoever.
He just finished a 3 week bout of mild diarrea after being wormed with equimax, had a fecal done to check for sand and worms... nothing there ...so I'm waiting til September for his next worming. |
Shirley A. Johnson
Member
Username: Shirl
Post Number: 245
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, Aug 9, 2005 - 11:28 pm: | |
Aileen, I don't want to be an alarmist, but be careful of the "looks like dead grass" as sometimes it can have more sugar in it than other. Limit his time. He sure sounds I.R. to me, but nothing but blood work will tell for certain. Glad he's not getting sweet feed. No grain I hope either. Sierra was I.R and looked and sounded like your guy, but again just my opinion. Does he get any 'lite' pellets, just bermuda, etc.? I use to get so frustrated with her and her weight issues and she always acted like she was starving. Best to you, keep up the good work. Shirl |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 13500
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, Aug 10, 2005 - 6:52 am: | |
Why has the pasture died Aileen? Or do you just mean the grass has gone dormant for the summer. I am trying to get an idea of the amount of roughage he is consuming. Are you saying he has nothing to graze on the pasture?
DrO |
Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66
Post Number: 929
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, Aug 10, 2005 - 10:16 am: | |
I didn't *think* he had much to graze on...but Shirley's statement that "looks like dead grass" could have more sugar...well, then maybe that's my problem! PLUS, I've lowered his feed to 8 pounds...it may not be enough so he's chowing the dead *sweet* grass...geesh.
I thought the pasture had gone dormant, Dr. O.
I've updated his diet in my profile. The vet said to keep him on the oat pellets (that I put in his pasture pal) to keep his gut moving at night.
The picture of him in turnout above (basically a dry lot)...he's in there for 3 hours a day from 2-5. The rest of the time (6 am to 2 pm and 5 pm to 7 or 8 pm - depending on how hot it is) he's in his pasture with the "dead grass"... I'll get a picture of the pasture and post it tonight.
Thank you! |
Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66
Post Number: 930
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, Aug 10, 2005 - 8:43 pm: | |
Ok, here's the turnout ...
 |
Shirley A. Johnson
Member
Username: Shirl
Post Number: 247
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, Aug 10, 2005 - 10:47 pm: | |
Aileen, First off, I love your barn. Looks wonderful. I don't know what to tell you about the dried grass. Sierra used to eat anything and everything dried up, even weeds, then I began reading of the dangers. Go with your gut feelings till you hear from Dr. O. Thoughts are with you. Your horse is gorgeous - plump or not. I know about plump in horses. Shirl |
Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66
Post Number: 931
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, Aug 10, 2005 - 11:26 pm: | |
Thanks Shirl!
He's actually a pretty picky eater, even out there...but still...I'll wait for Dr. O as you said.
Here's a pic of him after getting rinsed...I haven't posted one of his face yet! too bad he has a look of resignation
 |
Ann
Member
Username: Dres
Post Number: 572
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Aug 10, 2005 - 11:41 pm: | |
your pastures look like mine.. neighbor.. ! anyway i call it celery for the horse, something to do all day or night when there is no good hay in front of 'em... i don't think that this is high in sugar or any other calories Aileen... but that is just my opinion... heck i have a pony that gets fat on air... so i know what you are going thru...
your boy looks very spoiled...
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with SPOTS.. |
Shirley A. Johnson
Member
Username: Shirl
Post Number: 248
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, Aug 10, 2005 - 11:50 pm: | |
Aileen, He is beautiful, very kind face. Best of luck Shirl |
Shirley A. Johnson
Member
Username: Shirl
Post Number: 249
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, Aug 10, 2005 - 11:53 pm: | |
Ann, I'm only passing on what I've read on the Cushing's/I.R. sight and from my own experience. Good luck to you and your pony. How old is he? I know Sierra seemed to eat little and get fat if I didn't watch it. Course with her lamness problems I couldn't ride her which didn't help.
Good luck, Shirl |
Cindy Mitchell
Member
Username: Cmitch
Post Number: 32
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 11, 2005 - 6:30 am: | |
You are lucky to have pastures that are not rich. We struggle every year from SPring-Fall, because ours are so green and lush. Everyone gets fat here. My guy is fat on only 3-4 hours per day, and I like my horses to be out, but my overweight guy would founder for sure. Question on y our guy's hay consumption. How many flakes are 8 pds epr day? Any suggestions on my fatty? 4 hours of t/o on lush pasture, no grain, a Selenium-multi-vitamin, and 2 flakes of Timothy hay per day?? Is this too much? I really don't want to reduce his turnout anymore. I also worry about him standing in his stall all day and all night without hay.
Cindy |
LL
Member
Username: Frances
Post Number: 145
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 11, 2005 - 7:57 am: | |
So, Ann, what's the best way of getting a hand-walked horse to "march out using his stomach muscles" but at the same time keep him/her calm?
Must admit I've been sacrificing an active walk in relief at having a laid-back, non-injurious one. Please share your knowledge of how to achieve the first without losing the second!
All the best
Lynn |
Ann
Member
Username: Dres
Post Number: 573
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 11, 2005 - 9:58 am: | |
Shirley, my pony is 13 years young.. she is very fit and in perfect health, we bought her for my grandkids to ride, only they don't ride her near enough to keep the belly off her... all tho, I am in the mind that ponies have bigger belly's then taller horses..
LL, a good walking march with a horse reaching for contact on the bit, nose slightly forward, large/ big push off with the hind legs.. will raise the belly and use the back more, thus I would hope would burn more calories then a strolling walk... how do I attain this with a rehabbing horse?? CAREFULLY..... using my driving aides and playing with the bit to increase attention on me... In the beginning it can be a workout for horse and rider ....
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with SPOTS.. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 13511
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 11, 2005 - 10:04 am: | |
I agree with Ann, that dormant pastures are not rich in sugars and overall has a very low nutritional content, with the exception of roughage. I think Shirley may be confusing the "damaged" grass that has been frost bitten or dehydrated that has an increased amount of some of the poorly digested sugars that feed the bacteria that produce the laminitis inducing chemicals.
So, Aileen we have determined that your horse is getting adequate roughage with the hay and pasture but the forage is protein and vitamin deficient. His condition looks acceptable bordering on too fat. Certainly your initial question on fat was right on, this horse does not need empty calories: he needs vitamins and protein.
Oats are just minimally acceptable in protein content (10%) and require the rest of the diet be sufficient in protein. I think discontinuing the grain and grain based concentrate and replacing with alfalfa pellets makes a lot more sense than oats. It slightly lowers the calories but raises his protein significantly. I would also consider switching hays to 50% alfalfa and not feeding any significant amount of concentrate. To really tell what is best I would have to know the exact weight and analysis of each feedstuff. Lastly as long as the grass is not green vitamins as per the Overview of Nutrition is recommended. Of course this is all outlined in a step wise manner in our article on "Overview of Nutrition".
DrO |
Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66
Post Number: 932
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 11, 2005 - 10:34 am: | |
Thanks All!
Shirl, thank you...he's my pumpkin I do appreciate your input...it's always good to hear other viewpoints...I just never know what I might be missing...and I will be on the look out for IR. Thank you.
Cindy, I weigh my hay. 4 pounds is *usually* less than one flake. Some flakes are very heavy so then it's just half a flake. You can get a weight scale at the feed store. I have a hanging one and then cut feed bags to make an open pouch. Then I tie baling twine to make handles. Put the handles on the hook of the scale, see how much the bag weighs, then put in the hay.
I can't recommend pasture pals enough. It mimicks grazing and take them a long time to finish the pellets. Some horses destroy them tho...My horse loves his and treats it well.
Dr. O, he does get hot on alfalfa, however if you're just saying to give him 1/2 cup of alfalfa to get his supplements, I doubt that would affect him. If I put him on 50% alfalfa, I won't be able to ride him (he already has plenty of energy and I want to live ). Is there anything else I can try to give him more protein?
I'll get him back on a vitamin supplement...does anyone have recommendations? I had him on Glanzen, but I was trying to simplify his diet per vet recommendation and Glanzen is chock full of stuff. |
Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66
Post Number: 933
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 11, 2005 - 10:42 am: | |
Ann...he is NOT spoiled ...ok, maybe a little |
Shirley A. Johnson
Member
Username: Shirl
Post Number: 250
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 11, 2005 - 12:06 pm: | |
Dr. O, thanks for the explanation. You are right I was confusing the two. But then these days I'm easily confused. :o)Shirl |
Susan Bilsky
Member
Username: Suzeb
Post Number: 435
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 11, 2005 - 1:14 pm: | |
Brave is not spoiled he is PAMPERED .
A question I would have regarding the alfalfa is; what is in the alfalfa that makes a horse hot? Legume or Protein? Or alternatively, a horse on alfalfa plus grain concentrate that makes him full of beans?
Going through all of the posts here, I can see where this person who recommended the flax plus alfalfa is coming from (sort of).
Replace the grain concentrate with oil for energy and up the protein content via alfalfa.
Dr. O does suggest using good old fashioned human vitamins to boost up that department.
I hope I haven't added more confusion to this discussion  .
Susan B. |
Cindy Mitchell
Member
Username: Cmitch
Post Number: 33
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 11, 2005 - 2:13 pm: | |
Ann, I would *not* use Glazen. It has a lot of fat in it for hoof and coat. A horse nutritionist that I had come out recommended *Microphase* by Pennfield. You can look it up on the Kentuckey Research page, and order it directly from them. It is made especially for easy keepers aka "Fatties", who get no grain but need the vitamins. |
Cindy Mitchell
Member
Username: Cmitch
Post Number: 34
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 11, 2005 - 2:15 pm: | |
Dr O-- If the grass is green, do you still recommend the multi vitamin, for a horse that goes out 3-4 hours a day on it?
Cindy |
LL
Member
Username: Frances
Post Number: 146
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 11, 2005 - 3:42 pm: | |
Ann: thanks - but I'm just walking her from the ground in a headcollar, so no bit or driving aids other than encouraging clicks (more like a clucking hen really) with occasional taps behind when she grinds to a complete halt and says "I'm fed up with this - IT'S BORING". |
Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66
Post Number: 935
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 11, 2005 - 3:43 pm: | |
Yes, pampered...that's it!!
When you talk about grain concentrate, I do not consider oats a grain concentrate. These are plain whole oats with no other vitamins. Am I not understanding? The only processed food he gets are the oat pellets. Someone else told me to take him off all grain concentrates (omalene) and since then he seemed to get fatter...Maybe I should put him back on it?
Is alfalfa the only protein source out there?
Thanks Cindy, I agree with you on the Glanzen...it's a great product, but even the lite variation has a lot of flax in it. I will definitely look at Kentucky Research. |
Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66
Post Number: 936
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 11, 2005 - 3:48 pm: | |
LL, can she walk over cavaletti yet? Just poles on the ground? Slowly? I did that with my guy and it seemed to help. I have these styrofoam sticks (for lack of a better word -- they are flotation devices) at first it was a desensitization clinic, then he would go over them and if he missed, hey no big deal because it didn't hurt. They end up all over the arena, but at least it's a distraction. |
Susan Bilsky
Member
Username: Suzeb
Post Number: 436
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 11, 2005 - 8:25 pm: | |
Aileen,
That is a great idea about the styrofoam cavaletti.
I think we refer to those things as noodles. Used in swimming pools and the like. This could be something to get Brave or any horse that needs to walk smartly. Suck up and tuck up .
When you say Brave gets hot on alfalfa, is it the hay or have you tried pellets or other alfalfa based concentrates? Could make a difference. |
Lee
Member
Username: Paul303
Post Number: 531
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Friday, Aug 12, 2005 - 1:24 am: | |
Thanks, guys! Now I know what to do with all my old noodles instead of pitching them.
Cindy: Is your horse sound? If so, then all you can do is ride, ride, ride.
LL: How about using this time to teach your horse to ground drive? It's a perfect way to work on head set, bending, shortening his form, while not stressing his legs. I always ground drive under saddle, since it indicates to the horse a "work mode", and it cuts down on silliness. In the meantime, it sharpens your own rein skills and can greatly reinforce voice commands. This was always a huge part of breaking and training before mounting, but I found it came in very handy in rehabilitating injured horses. A couple of other things I did with both injured, and youngsters, were trail walks ( if trails are available ), which not only refresh and exercise the animal - it's good for you, too. And re-working halter and showmanship basics ( without the turns )and setting up a basic trail course with rails in the arena. You can gear these activities up or down, depending on what your horse is cleared to do. But the key is to keep his mind engaged, and his attention on you. I always let my horses know that a treat will follow each successful exercise. This reinforces "no" and "good boy (or )". |
LL
Member
Username: Frances
Post Number: 147
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, Aug 12, 2005 - 6:52 am: | |
Aileen: YES! Soft "poles"/"cavaletti" for walking over are an excellent idea (perhaps not on a windy day however !). I'll see what I can find - from a shop selling swimming pool equipment I guess?
Lee: Ground driving also sounds as if it would be beneficial - think I'll need a bit of training in how to do it myself, though, as I haven't done it before.
Both ideas should help to keep her concentrating, too. I |
