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Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66

Post Number: 920
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Sunday, Aug 7, 2005 - 11:25 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

It's been suggested to me that I should put my horse on flax (boiled to make the oil). She said that she sees many easy keepers not look so bloated and more streamlined when on it for 3 or 4 months.

She also told me to add alfalfa to his diet...these things are not making sense to me. Alfalfa and oil are added to gain weight...correct?

Is there any merit to this? Or is she thinking my horse may have epsm?
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 13486
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Monday, Aug 8, 2005 - 6:08 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hello Aileen,
There seems to be some confusion here over a horse with a hay belly and one who is carrying a lot of fat. The above diet would reduce the hay belly if the amount of lower nutrient density forage were reduced but you are right, it should not be fed to a horse with excessive condition. For more on judging condition see Care for Horses » Particular Situations & Procedures » Weight, Condition, and Eventual Height Estimation.
DrO
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Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66

Post Number: 921
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Monday, Aug 8, 2005 - 10:49 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks Dr. O,

According to the vet's that have seen him...

1. He was a 6-7 on the scale in February/March/April - he was getting 11-12 pounds of hay.
2. He was a 7 on the scale in May...getting 9 pounds of hay
3. and most recent...he's an 8 on the scale in July - getting 8 pounds of hay.

This is your description of No. 8:
Crease down back is prominent. Ribs difficult to feel due to fat in between. Wither area is filled with fat and very soft fat over tailhead. The space behind the shoulders is filled in and flush, and there is fat along the inner buttocks.

He has no crease, but the last vet did say that he's lost muscle and that's why he has no crease. I can feel the ribs without pushing him over - but it is definately spongy. The wither area is not filled with fat, but he does have fat behind his shoulders. The tailhead actually looks better to me...unless he's got so much fat that it's all filled in and looks smooth. He has no fat on the inner buttocks.

I've been DECREASING the feed throughout this period and he seems to be gaining weight. I just don't understand this and I don't know what to do.

Is he still in danger of foundering if there is no more green grass left in the pasture? There is very little...I'm seeing a lot of dirt now, whatever grass is there is dead.

He has plenty of energy and is getting quite piggy at meal times...but I'm guessing that's because he's hungry.

Should I just work him on the lunge since he's been sound now for 2 weeks or so?
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Shirley A. Johnson
Member
Username: Shirl

Post Number: 243
Registered: 2-2002
Posted on Monday, Aug 8, 2005 - 1:17 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Aileen, have you had him tested for Cushings or I.R.? Might do that, has some of the symptoms. She Dr. O's web site on that for more info.
Shirl
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Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66

Post Number: 922
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Monday, Aug 8, 2005 - 2:17 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Shirley,

I did ask about it Shirley, but he was not tested, the last vet said that since he was in excellent condition in January, she wasn't going to look for IR or anything else.

I had also asked another vet about IR (not cushings though he has a very thin coat and sheds normally and a lot...very araby.. :-))
He said that IR is the new rage in veterinary medicine and to not worry about IR, but start from the beginning with diet and exercise.

He had a cbc done recently, and all was normal on it, at least it didn't raise any suspicions.
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Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66

Post Number: 923
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Monday, Aug 8, 2005 - 2:26 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Vet just called. He said OHHH not good on him getting fatttter... He said that it could be thyroid, but there aren't any really good tests for it. He said that I could put him on the lowest dose and see what that does for him. Thoughts?

He also said that I can canter him to the left only for a little while on BIG circles. Walk and Trot to the right with maybe one circle of canter to the right to help get the weight off. He said to be conservative and to use my good judgement.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 13491
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 9, 2005 - 7:08 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Nonsense on the thyroid, if IR is all the rage today, hypothyroid was all the rage for the past 30 years and, unlike IR which is based on good science, is mostly total nonsense. Aileen if your horse is still gaining weight and if you judge him as fatter than you want him he is receiving more calories than he is burning and you need to feed him less. Logical ways to do this are addressed in both the article on Overview of Nutrition and Fat or Obese Horse Nutrition.
DrO
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Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66

Post Number: 924
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 9, 2005 - 8:38 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks Dr. O, three vets say not to reduce his feed anymore. He's a big horse and is already only getting 8 pounds of hay per day ...total...four pounds in the morning and 4 pounds at night -- orchard grass. Since he responded to gastroguard, I really don't want to reduce him anymore. I'm just going to wait him out. I did start him on a selinium/vit. E supplement this weekend. I'll see if that helps even his metabolism out...don't think so though.

I worked him last night and he was raising his had at the downward transitions (trot to walk). So I'm not going to canter him and very little trot...if any.

Based on my description of his condition vs. your condition level #8 do you feel he is an 8?
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 13496
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 9, 2005 - 9:13 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

No that sound more like a 6 and 1/2. How much pasture does he get (quality and time).
DrO
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Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66

Post Number: 925
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 9, 2005 - 9:27 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Good! Ok, then with my limited knowledge we'll call it a 7 :-) phew!

14 hours turnout, but what's left is dead now. A lot of dirt showing. No, he didn't eat it all ... I had the other horses working on it :-)

There's enough there for him to nibble on and *think* he's eating but that's it.
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Susan Bilsky
Member
Username: Suzeb

Post Number: 434
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 9, 2005 - 11:18 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

How about a picture of Mr. Butterball .

Given the lameness issues that Brave has had and the time off from exercising it is understandable that he has lost condition in some parts (muscle) and gained it elsewhere (haybelly).
It happens to us humans too . Do you ever check his girth size from time to time? Do you know his weight?
Eleven hundred pounds of muscle compared to eleven hundred pounds of fat can make your horse look like two totally different creatures.
Go through Dr.O's articles on Nutrition and see where you could add or take away.
When that pasture is finally burned out, you will be back to the hay again and 8lbs will not be enough.
If your winter feed is going to be orchard grass only, you could add some alfalfa pellets as his "grain".

Susan B.
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Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66

Post Number: 926
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 9, 2005 - 5:35 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Ok :-) Don't mind the dirt...Here's today

today

Here's July 23

July 23
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Ann
Member
Username: Dres

Post Number: 571
Registered: 10-2000
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 9, 2005 - 6:12 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

he maybe a little 'chunky' but he sure has a nice bloom on him... up his walking, make him use himself/ vs. just walking like a lazy horse...get him to march out using his back and stomach muscles...

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with SPOTS..
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Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66

Post Number: 927
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 9, 2005 - 6:28 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks Ann, I'll email you...need some help :-)

Susan, he was 1160 pounds July 15. Vet taped him. I put his western saddle on him a few days ago and had to let down the cinch! That said though, he hasn't had a saddle on him since the end of November.
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joj
Member
Username: Jojo15

Post Number: 588
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 9, 2005 - 6:49 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Aileen, my girl is looking ALOT like your guy... its the past the ribcage toward the flank that has me going he is thick in there like brandy. and his neck does it feel TIGHT to the touch? I keep saying brandy is pre-cushionoid but of course my vet is always out for something else more critical at the time.... This past time he noticed the crest and said has this alway been there? yup.... From everything i read too vs. actually it working are quite different. I don't work her much because we are both so out of shape and i haven't the room for a true lunge. (regardless she has never lunged)... When it stops raining i am going to post a pic of her. and we can compare who is the fattest....

All joking aside, i am learning as long as the feet are well taken care of, she isn't getting too hot a feed, equine senior with T+A ( i do feed alfalfa as a treat) has alot of walking around time, good productive time. and not really lush pasture. A few supplements, and ALWAYS worm on time. this is the best way to keep cushings within control... So whether or not he really does have it. The response would be the same.
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Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66

Post Number: 928
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 9, 2005 - 10:55 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks Joj, it's not his neck they're concerned with, they actually said his neck is fine...it's everywhere else...I certainly hope he doesn't have cushings!

I have finally gotten his feet figured out...I HOPE!...and he gets no sweet feed whatsoever.

He just finished a 3 week bout of mild diarrea after being wormed with equimax, had a fecal done to check for sand and worms... nothing there ...so I'm waiting til September for his next worming.
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Shirley A. Johnson
Member
Username: Shirl

Post Number: 245
Registered: 2-2002
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 9, 2005 - 11:28 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Aileen, I don't want to be an alarmist, but be careful of the "looks like dead grass" as sometimes it can have more sugar in it than other. Limit his time. He sure sounds I.R. to me, but nothing but blood work will tell for certain. Glad he's not getting sweet feed. No grain I hope either. Sierra was I.R and looked and sounded like your guy, but again just my opinion. Does he get any 'lite' pellets, just bermuda, etc.? I use to get so frustrated with her and her weight issues and she always acted like she was starving. Best to you, keep up the good work. Shirl
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 13500
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 10, 2005 - 6:52 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Why has the pasture died Aileen? Or do you just mean the grass has gone dormant for the summer. I am trying to get an idea of the amount of roughage he is consuming. Are you saying he has nothing to graze on the pasture?
DrO
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Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66

Post Number: 929
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 10, 2005 - 10:16 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I didn't *think* he had much to graze on...but Shirley's statement that "looks like dead grass" could have more sugar...well, then maybe that's my problem! PLUS, I've lowered his feed to 8 pounds...it may not be enough so he's chowing the dead *sweet* grass...geesh.

I thought the pasture had gone dormant, Dr. O.

I've updated his diet in my profile. The vet said to keep him on the oat pellets (that I put in his pasture pal) to keep his gut moving at night.

The picture of him in turnout above (basically a dry lot)...he's in there for 3 hours a day from 2-5. The rest of the time (6 am to 2 pm and 5 pm to 7 or 8 pm - depending on how hot it is) he's in his pasture with the "dead grass"... I'll get a picture of the pasture and post it tonight.

Thank you!
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Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66

Post Number: 930
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 10, 2005 - 8:43 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Ok, here's the turnout ...

paddock1a

paddock other half
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Shirley A. Johnson
Member
Username: Shirl

Post Number: 247
Registered: 2-2002
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 10, 2005 - 10:47 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Aileen, First off, I love your barn. Looks wonderful. I don't know what to tell you about the dried grass. Sierra used to eat anything and everything dried up, even weeds, then I began reading of the dangers. Go with your gut feelings till you hear from Dr. O. Thoughts are with you. Your horse is gorgeous - plump or not. I know about plump in horses. Shirl
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Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66

Post Number: 931
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 10, 2005 - 11:26 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks Shirl!

He's actually a pretty picky eater, even out there...but still...I'll wait for Dr. O as you said.

Here's a pic of him after getting rinsed...I haven't posted one of his face yet! too bad he has a look of resignation :-)

I don't WANT to pose
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Ann
Member
Username: Dres

Post Number: 572
Registered: 10-2000
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 10, 2005 - 11:41 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

your pastures look like mine.. neighbor.. ! :-) anyway i call it celery for the horse, something to do all day or night when there is no good hay in front of 'em... i don't think that this is high in sugar or any other calories Aileen... but that is just my opinion... heck i have a pony that gets fat on air... so i know what you are going thru...
your boy looks very spoiled...

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with SPOTS..
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Shirley A. Johnson
Member
Username: Shirl

Post Number: 248
Registered: 2-2002
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 10, 2005 - 11:50 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Aileen, He is beautiful, very kind face. Best of luck Shirl
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Shirley A. Johnson
Member
Username: Shirl

Post Number: 249
Registered: 2-2002
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 10, 2005 - 11:53 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Ann, I'm only passing on what I've read on the Cushing's/I.R. sight and from my own experience. Good luck to you and your pony. How old is he? I know Sierra seemed to eat little and get fat if I didn't watch it. Course with her lamness problems I couldn't ride her which didn't help.
Good luck, Shirl
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Cindy Mitchell
Member
Username: Cmitch

Post Number: 32
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Thursday, Aug 11, 2005 - 6:30 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

You are lucky to have pastures that are not rich. We struggle every year from SPring-Fall, because ours are so green and lush. Everyone gets fat here. My guy is fat on only 3-4 hours per day, and I like my horses to be out, but my overweight guy would founder for sure. Question on y our guy's hay consumption. How many flakes are 8 pds epr day? Any suggestions on my fatty? 4 hours of t/o on lush pasture, no grain, a Selenium-multi-vitamin, and 2 flakes of Timothy hay per day?? Is this too much? I really don't want to reduce his turnout anymore. I also worry about him standing in his stall all day and all night without hay.

Cindy
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LL
Member
Username: Frances

Post Number: 145
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Thursday, Aug 11, 2005 - 7:57 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

So, Ann, what's the best way of getting a hand-walked horse to "march out using his stomach muscles" but at the same time keep him/her calm?

Must admit I've been sacrificing an active walk in relief at having a laid-back, non-injurious one. Please share your knowledge of how to achieve the first without losing the second!

All the best

Lynn
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Ann
Member
Username: Dres

Post Number: 573
Registered: 10-2000
Posted on Thursday, Aug 11, 2005 - 9:58 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Shirley, my pony is 13 years young.. she is very fit and in perfect health, we bought her for my grandkids to ride, only they don't ride her near enough to keep the belly off her... all tho, I am in the mind that ponies have bigger belly's then taller horses..

LL, a good walking march with a horse reaching for contact on the bit, nose slightly forward, large/ big push off with the hind legs.. will raise the belly and use the back more, thus I would hope would burn more calories then a strolling walk... how do I attain this with a rehabbing horse?? CAREFULLY..... using my driving aides and playing with the bit to increase attention on me... In the beginning it can be a workout for horse and rider ....

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with SPOTS..
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 13511
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Thursday, Aug 11, 2005 - 10:04 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I agree with Ann, that dormant pastures are not rich in sugars and overall has a very low nutritional content, with the exception of roughage. I think Shirley may be confusing the "damaged" grass that has been frost bitten or dehydrated that has an increased amount of some of the poorly digested sugars that feed the bacteria that produce the laminitis inducing chemicals.

So, Aileen we have determined that your horse is getting adequate roughage with the hay and pasture but the forage is protein and vitamin deficient. His condition looks acceptable bordering on too fat. Certainly your initial question on fat was right on, this horse does not need empty calories: he needs vitamins and protein.

Oats are just minimally acceptable in protein content (10%) and require the rest of the diet be sufficient in protein. I think discontinuing the grain and grain based concentrate and replacing with alfalfa pellets makes a lot more sense than oats. It slightly lowers the calories but raises his protein significantly. I would also consider switching hays to 50% alfalfa and not feeding any significant amount of concentrate. To really tell what is best I would have to know the exact weight and analysis of each feedstuff. Lastly as long as the grass is not green vitamins as per the Overview of Nutrition is recommended. Of course this is all outlined in a step wise manner in our article on "Overview of Nutrition".
DrO
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Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66

Post Number: 932
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Thursday, Aug 11, 2005 - 10:34 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks All!

Shirl, thank you...he's my pumpkin :-) I do appreciate your input...it's always good to hear other viewpoints...I just never know what I might be missing...and I will be on the look out for IR. Thank you.

Cindy, I weigh my hay. 4 pounds is *usually* less than one flake. Some flakes are very heavy so then it's just half a flake. You can get a weight scale at the feed store. I have a hanging one and then cut feed bags to make an open pouch. Then I tie baling twine to make handles. Put the handles on the hook of the scale, see how much the bag weighs, then put in the hay.

I can't recommend pasture pals enough. It mimicks grazing and take them a long time to finish the pellets. Some horses destroy them tho...My horse loves his and treats it well.

Dr. O, he does get hot on alfalfa, however if you're just saying to give him 1/2 cup of alfalfa to get his supplements, I doubt that would affect him. If I put him on 50% alfalfa, I won't be able to ride him (he already has plenty of energy and I want to live :-) ). Is there anything else I can try to give him more protein?

I'll get him back on a vitamin supplement...does anyone have recommendations? I had him on Glanzen, but I was trying to simplify his diet per vet recommendation and Glanzen is chock full of stuff.
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Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66

Post Number: 933
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Thursday, Aug 11, 2005 - 10:42 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Ann...he is NOT spoiled ...ok, maybe a little :-)
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Shirley A. Johnson
Member
Username: Shirl

Post Number: 250
Registered: 2-2002
Posted on Thursday, Aug 11, 2005 - 12:06 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dr. O, thanks for the explanation. You are right I was confusing the two. But then these days I'm easily confused. :o)Shirl
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Susan Bilsky
Member
Username: Suzeb

Post Number: 435
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Thursday, Aug 11, 2005 - 1:14 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Brave is not spoiled he is PAMPERED .
A question I would have regarding the alfalfa is; what is in the alfalfa that makes a horse hot? Legume or Protein? Or alternatively, a horse on alfalfa plus grain concentrate that makes him full of beans?
Going through all of the posts here, I can see where this person who recommended the flax plus alfalfa is coming from (sort of).
Replace the grain concentrate with oil for energy and up the protein content via alfalfa.
Dr. O does suggest using good old fashioned human vitamins to boost up that department.
I hope I haven't added more confusion to this discussion .

Susan B.
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Cindy Mitchell
Member
Username: Cmitch

Post Number: 33
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Thursday, Aug 11, 2005 - 2:13 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Ann, I would *not* use Glazen. It has a lot of fat in it for hoof and coat. A horse nutritionist that I had come out recommended *Microphase* by Pennfield. You can look it up on the Kentuckey Research page, and order it directly from them. It is made especially for easy keepers aka "Fatties", who get no grain but need the vitamins.
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Cindy Mitchell
Member
Username: Cmitch

Post Number: 34
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Thursday, Aug 11, 2005 - 2:15 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dr O-- If the grass is green, do you still recommend the multi vitamin, for a horse that goes out 3-4 hours a day on it?

Cindy
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LL
Member
Username: Frances

Post Number: 146
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Thursday, Aug 11, 2005 - 3:42 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Ann: thanks - but I'm just walking her from the ground in a headcollar, so no bit or driving aids other than encouraging clicks (more like a clucking hen really) with occasional taps behind when she grinds to a complete halt and says "I'm fed up with this - IT'S BORING".
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Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66

Post Number: 935
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Thursday, Aug 11, 2005 - 3:43 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Yes, pampered...that's it!! :-)

When you talk about grain concentrate, I do not consider oats a grain concentrate. These are plain whole oats with no other vitamins. Am I not understanding? The only processed food he gets are the oat pellets. Someone else told me to take him off all grain concentrates (omalene) and since then he seemed to get fatter...Maybe I should put him back on it?

Is alfalfa the only protein source out there?

Thanks Cindy, I agree with you on the Glanzen...it's a great product, but even the lite variation has a lot of flax in it. I will definitely look at Kentucky Research.
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Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66

Post Number: 936
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Thursday, Aug 11, 2005 - 3:48 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

LL, can she walk over cavaletti yet? Just poles on the ground? Slowly? I did that with my guy and it seemed to help. I have these styrofoam sticks (for lack of a better word -- they are flotation devices) at first it was a desensitization clinic, then he would go over them and if he missed, hey no big deal because it didn't hurt. They end up all over the arena, but at least it's a distraction.
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Susan Bilsky
Member
Username: Suzeb

Post Number: 436
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Thursday, Aug 11, 2005 - 8:25 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Aileen,
That is a great idea about the styrofoam cavaletti.
I think we refer to those things as noodles. Used in swimming pools and the like. This could be something to get Brave or any horse that needs to walk smartly. Suck up and tuck up .

When you say Brave gets hot on alfalfa, is it the hay or have you tried pellets or other alfalfa based concentrates? Could make a difference.
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Lee
Member
Username: Paul303

Post Number: 531
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Friday, Aug 12, 2005 - 1:24 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks, guys! Now I know what to do with all my old noodles instead of pitching them.

Cindy: Is your horse sound? If so, then all you can do is ride, ride, ride.

LL: How about using this time to teach your horse to ground drive? It's a perfect way to work on head set, bending, shortening his form, while not stressing his legs. I always ground drive under saddle, since it indicates to the horse a "work mode", and it cuts down on silliness. In the meantime, it sharpens your own rein skills and can greatly reinforce voice commands. This was always a huge part of breaking and training before mounting, but I found it came in very handy in rehabilitating injured horses. A couple of other things I did with both injured, and youngsters, were trail walks ( if trails are available ), which not only refresh and exercise the animal - it's good for you, too. And re-working halter and showmanship basics ( without the turns )and setting up a basic trail course with rails in the arena. You can gear these activities up or down, depending on what your horse is cleared to do. But the key is to keep his mind engaged, and his attention on you. I always let my horses know that a treat will follow each successful exercise. This reinforces "no" and "good boy (or )".
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LL
Member
Username: Frances

Post Number: 147
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Friday, Aug 12, 2005 - 6:52 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Aileen: YES! Soft "poles"/"cavaletti" for walking over are an excellent idea (perhaps not on a windy day however !). I'll see what I can find - from a shop selling swimming pool equipment I guess?

Lee: Ground driving also sounds as if it would be beneficial - think I'll need a bit of training in how to do it myself, though, as I haven't done it before.

Both ideas should help to keep her concentrating, too. I really want to stop her from shuffling, as she's wearing down the shoes on her front feet and the toes on her hinds (unshod).

Many thanks to you both for taking the time to help!

Lynn
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D.
Member
Username: Dyduroc

Post Number: 172
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Friday, Aug 12, 2005 - 9:22 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

LL, you should be able to find noodles at WalMart.

Aileen, you're a genius! What a terrific idea! No more noodles in the pool--they're going into the arena!

dyd
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 13515
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Friday, Aug 12, 2005 - 9:55 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

The article I reference above gives protein alternatives and vitamin recommendations. If you are worried about the time on pasture 3 hours is plenty.

Oats with its appx. 1.5 MCal per lb and less than 15% roughage puts it in the same category as corn and other whole grains. And while oats has some advantages over corn it definitely is a concentrate whether just whole grain or mixed with other components.
DrO
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Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66

Post Number: 937
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Friday, Aug 12, 2005 - 10:19 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Yes, noodles...that's what they're called :-) One caveat though, they are not so good for actual training...some horses will know they don't hurt and won't work really hard at trot work...that said, rehabbing with them at the walk seems to work well without the danger of reinjury and give them something else to think about.

LL, correct, not on a windy day :-) They just blow around - which is sort of fun to see the look on my horses face...hehehehe...I have those 6 inch cones that I'm going to stick the ends of the noodles into the cones to see if that will stablize them a bit.

Thanks Dr. O, I didn't realize that oats were a concentrate. I thought only processed grains were concentrates.

I got a very pretty passage out of him last night when the neighbor's dog scared him! So light on his feet, and just gorgeous to look at. He was sound at the trot/walk transitions.. Just tried twice. We're just going to play with the noodles for a couple more months.
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Susan Bilsky
Member
Username: Suzeb

Post Number: 437
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Friday, Aug 12, 2005 - 11:02 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Aileen,
You will have to submit that idea in the Tips and Tricks section.
Just yesterday, I was in the local Wal-Mart and lo and behold a lady and her daughter in the lineup behind me had a shopping cart full of these things (Noodles).
I assumed they were going to have some fun at the lake or poolside. I hadn't even seen your post yet .
Some old coathanger wire bent into a horseshoe could also help anchor them into the ground.
I too will be back out to Wal-Mart for some Noodles .
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Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66

Post Number: 939
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Friday, Aug 12, 2005 - 12:26 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

hehe... ok :-)
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Fran C
Member
Username: Canter

Post Number: 270
Registered: 1-2000
Posted on Friday, Aug 12, 2005 - 12:51 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

What a GREAT idea r.e the noodles...I wouldn't have thought of it in a 100 years. Certainly solves the problem of expensive poles or PVC pipe and they are a heck of a lot easier to carry around and rearrange. I'm headed out to the local WalMart this weekend!!
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Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66

Post Number: 941
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Saturday, Aug 13, 2005 - 10:15 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Can you say RODEO! OMG it was nerve wracking! tearing around at a gallop, hump back bucks, rears, spins, passage, I finally got them to stop (one in one turnout and mine in his). I haven't seen him do this for so long (10 minutes before I could stop them - and they did NOT want to stop!) for months. Normally, he just ignores the other horses' antics!

I cold hosed his legs just in case. Geesh.

NO alfalfa for this guy...at least not until he's completely healed. He doesn't need to injure himself again. He gets really good quality grass hay..I'm just going to find something else.
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Lilo
Member
Username: Lilo

Post Number: 181
Registered: 4-2000
Posted on Sunday, Aug 14, 2005 - 11:12 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi - this message is for Cindy Mitchell. I got to the website for Pennfield you mentioned, but could not get any information on Microphase. There were several feed products with "phase" in them, but could not find a vitamin product. I have an easy keeper and was interested in the vitamin product for "fatties".
Thanks,
Lilo
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Karen Nolte
Member
Username: Morg1

Post Number: 38
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Monday, Aug 15, 2005 - 9:43 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Aileen,

Just a thought, have you tried the Purina product called Mare & Maintenance. It's a low calorie feed that has a lot of vitamins and minerals. That way you know that your easy keepers are getting the vitamins and minerals they need without the fat. Another great thing about it is that you only feed one or two pounds per day.
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Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66

Post Number: 942
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Monday, Aug 15, 2005 - 10:56 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks Karen!

If it includes protein, that's exactly what I'm looking for! I couldn't find it on their website though. Do you have a link?

Lilo, I think this is what she's talking about:
http://www.ker.com/products/supplements/MicroPhase.html?try=Cookie
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Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66

Post Number: 945
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Monday, Aug 15, 2005 - 11:17 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

What about this one, anyone? Dr. O?

LMF SUPER SUPPLEMENT
A complete horse supplement for horses of all ages containing essential trace minerals and vitamins. Super Supplement contains balanced levels of calcium and phosphorus to insure proper intake and proper ratio of calcium to phosphorus.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Features:
Ideal For The 'Easy Keeper' - requiring little or no grain in the diet to maintain proper body weight
For Pregnant Mares - that tend to become overweight if fed normal amounts of grain
As a Therapeutic Feed - for weanlings demonstrating symptoms of development orthopedic disease (DOD)
A Mineral/Vitamin Balancer - for horses of all ages

A Formula G Formula

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Crude Protein (min) 9.0% 24.0%
Crude Fat (min) 3.0% 3.0%
Crude Fiber (max) 4.0% 3.0%
Calcium (min) 0.3% 2.6%
Phosphorus (min) 2.6% 2.3%
Vitamin A (min) 5,700 IU/lb. 5,000 IU/lb.
Vitamin E (min) 500 IU/lb. 500 IU/lb.
Zinc (min) 750 ppm 700 ppm
Copper (min) 200 ppm 200 ppm
Selenium (min) 3.0 ppm 3.0 ppm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

* A Formula recommended for feeding with alfalfa hay.
* G Formula recommended for feeding with grass hay


http://www.lmffeeds.com/lmf_super_supplement.html

I'd only have to feed a pound of it per day. The table went askew, but the grass hay percentages are on the far right.
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Karen Nolte
Member
Username: Morg1

Post Number: 39
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Monday, Aug 15, 2005 - 12:21 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I did an advanced search for Mare and Maintenance on Google and found several discussions about using it. I don't know why Purina doesn't have it on their website, but I'm sure that you can get it at any Purina dealer. I use for most of my horses. I have Morgans and they are famous for being easy keepers. I also use it for my pregnant mares until they need a little extra protein and calories. I'm sure there are other products available, but I'm a die hard Purina fan.
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Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66

Post Number: 946
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Monday, Aug 15, 2005 - 1:54 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Karen,

Yes, I saw the discussions too...I was just looking for what exactly was in it. I'll keep looking for it :-)

It seems funny to me that my horse would need the same thing as mares...because he LOOKS pregnant :-)
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Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66

Post Number: 948
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Monday, Aug 15, 2005 - 2:33 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I found another one...again..any thoughts? This one however made me catch my breath when I saw the price!

TNT(tm)


Description:
TNT(tm) is The Nutritional Treament, an awesome all-in-one supplement for horses. Each dose contains 1 oz. of Dynamite®Regular, 20 gm. of Free and Easy(tm), 1/2 oz. of Izmine(tm), 1/2 tsp. Excel(tm), 1 oz of Easy Boy(tm), and 1 cup of HES(tm) Pellets.
Ingredients:
Ground Whole Extruded Soybeans, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Yeast Culture,
Dicalcium Phosphate, Monosodium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Magnesium
Amino Acid Chelate, Vitamin A Acetate, Alpha-Tocopherol Acetate (Source of
Vitamin E), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Calcium Ascorbate*, Carotene, Choline
Chloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Pyridoxine
Hydrochloride, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vegetable Oil, Dried Aspergillus
Oryzae and Dried Bacillus Subtilis Fermentation Extracts, Magnesium Oxide,
Manganese Oxide, Zinc Oxide, Copper Oxide, Ferrous Carbonate, Cobalt
Carbonate, Magnesium Sulfate, Potassium Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Bentonite,
Cane Molasses, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Zinc
Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Cobalt Amino Acid Chelate,
Yucca Schidigera, Potassium Iodate, Sodium Selenite, Thiamine Mononitrate,
Biotin, Folic Acid, L-Lysine, dl-Methionine, Dried Citrus Meal, Sorbitol and
Mannitol.

* Source of Calcium Ascorbate – Ester-C a product of Inter-Cal
Guaranteed Analysis:
Protein 17.93%
Lysine 0.33
Methionine 0.11
Arginine 0.28
Cystine 0.05
Histidine 0.02
Isoleucine 0.03
Leucine 0.05
Phenylalanine 0.04
Serine 0.04
Threonine 0.12
Tryptophan 0.08
Tyrosine 0.02
Valine 0.04
Crude Fat 6.9
Crude Fiber 7.5
Calcium Min. 1.37
Calcium Max. 1.48
Phosphorus 0.75
Sodium 0.39
Magnesium 0.94
Potassium 1.13 Sulfur 1.62
Copper 37.1 ppm
Selenium 4.8
Zinc 327.8
Iron 1866.0 ppm
Manganese 147.8
Cobalt 6.2
Iodine 13.3 ppm
Vitamin A 57,522 IU
Vitamin D3 9,082 IU
Vitamin B12 226 mcg
Riboflavin 169 mg
Carotene 12 mg
Niacin 545 mg
d-Pantothenic 73 mg
Choline 979 mg
Biotin 24 mcg
Folic Acid 18 mg
Thiamine 13 mg
Vitamin B6 19 mg
Ascorbic Acid 6,314 mg
Directions:
Adult/Training horses....................1 1/3 cups daily
Weanlings........................................2/3 cup daily
Yearlings...........................................1 cup daily

For training horses, the product may be fed at double the daily rate for 3 days prior to strenuous events.
Feed TNT(tm) with grass or grass mix hay, and a plain, unfortified grain or with Dynamite Pelleted Grain Ration(tm).
Please also consider the use of our free choices, NTM Salt, 1 to 1 Free Choice and/or 2 to1 Free Choice to balance calcium and phosphorus needs.
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Karen Nolte
Member
Username: Morg1

Post Number: 40
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Monday, Aug 15, 2005 - 3:56 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Aileen,

I went out and got the ingredients from my bag of Mare and Maintenance.

Crude Protein 12%
Lysine 1%
Crude fat 2%
Crude fiber 15%
Calcium min 3% max 3.5%
Phosphorus 2.5%
Salt min .5% max 1%
Magnesium .4%
Sulfur .35%
Manganese 250ppm
Copper 185ppm
Cobalt 6ppm
Iodine 4ppm
Selenium 2ppm
Zinc 500ppm
Iron 500ppm
Vitamin A 24,000 IU/lb
Vitamin D-3 2,000 IU/lb
Vitamin E 350 IU/lb
Thiamine 30 mg/lb
Asorbic acid 50 mg/lb

Ingredients:
Processed grain by-products, roughage products, forage products, monocalcium phosphate, dicalcium phosphate, grain products, salt, calcium lignin sulfonate, vitamin E supplement, vitamin B-12 supplement, vitamin A supplement, ascorbic acid, ferrous carbonate, manganous oxide, zinc oxide, copper sulfate, magnesium oxide, calcium iodate,cobalt carbonate, vitamin D3 supplement, sodium selenite.

The bag says that horses at maintenance and broodmares through 2nd trimester of gestation should receive 1 to 2 lbs/day along with hay.

It's more expensive per bag, but since you don't feed as much it lasts a long time. I pay a little of $13 a bag.

This is also nice, because you don't have to provide any supplements, except for the free choice mineral and white salt blocks.
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Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66

Post Number: 951
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Monday, Aug 15, 2005 - 4:27 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thank you Karen! That was very kind of you...now I'll just compare the M&M and LMF. I tried to edit the TNT to delete it but it wouldn't let me.

Dr.O, am I heading in the right direction here? Do you have a preference out of the two - Mare and Maintenance or LMF?

This would be until he's completely healed, of course if it doesn't help, I'll reevaluate his diet again and add alfalfa if necessary.

Thank you!

Edited to say that he seems to be ballooning STILL, I've cut back the Quiessence because it didn't seem to be helping, but maybe it was...just not enough.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 13537
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 16, 2005 - 6:11 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I think the high protein LMF-G formula would be just what you are looking for.
DrO
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Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66

Post Number: 952
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 16, 2005 - 10:10 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thank you very much Dr. O! This board is a wonderful resource and I'm SURE my horse will thank you once again!!

I'll get it tonight.
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Debra Dove
Member
Username: 9193

Post Number: 111
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 16, 2005 - 4:17 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Aileen,

I have been feeding LMF to Justin since the day I bought him..I switched him to LMF Senior a year ago because I wanted more Glucosamine in his diet and because of his age.

I have been very, VERY happy with this product.. He has energy, shiny coat from the flaxseed and because the SR is low in carbs, you can feed a fair amount without worrying about founder such as in the case of oats, corn ect. I feed 2lbs of LMF Sr to Justin at night with his flake of grass hay.

There are 80 horses at the barn where I board and except for the pasture ponies, all the horses that are fed grass hay get a l lb. feeding of the LMF super supplement at a noon feeding.

If you would like to talk to my friend who is an LMF representative (as well as the supplier for me and the barn) to learn more about the product I would be happy to connect the two of you.

Take Care,
Debra
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Cindy Mitchell
Member
Username: Cmitch

Post Number: 35
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 16, 2005 - 5:55 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

LILO--Here is where you can get the Microphase

http://www.ker.com/products/supplements/MicroPhase.html?region=na

My horse is doing well on it. Funny, after all this talk, he lost some weight, I noticed this morning, he went up one girth hole!! Yipee!!
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Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66

Post Number: 954
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 16, 2005 - 10:26 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thank you Debra, my feed store is a distributor, and the owner speaks very highly of it. Of course they were out of it, so I might not have the chance to get it until the weekend.

I didn't see this until later, but evidently there's a no molasses formula (low carb), but it only has 10% protein. Perhaps I'll try that after this if it doesn't work!

Good news on your horse Cindy!
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Debra Dove
Member
Username: 9193

Post Number: 112
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 17, 2005 - 12:38 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I hope you and Brave enjoy your LMF!

When I looked at the website, I didn't realize there were so many different types either..

Smiles,
Debra
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Lilo
Member
Username: Lilo

Post Number: 182
Registered: 4-2000
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 17, 2005 - 10:59 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Cindy and Aileen,
Thanks for the information on the MicroPhase - I am certainly considering it for my overweight Rocky Mountain Horse!
Lilo
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Shirley Johnson
Member
Username: shirl

Post Number: 808
Registered: 2-2002
Posted on Thursday, Jul 19, 2012 - 5:05 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

this is just a test message. i haven't got an email in a long time
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Shirley Johnson
Member
Username: shirl

Post Number: 809
Registered: 2-2002
Posted on Thursday, Jul 19, 2012 - 5:29 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

still not getting email. testing another account
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Shirley Johnson
Member
Username: shirl

Post Number: 810
Registered: 2-2002
Posted on Thursday, Jul 19, 2012 - 5:31 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

got that one. changed it back to test again
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