Use the navigation bar above to access articles and more discussions on this topic.
| Author |
Message |
    
Gay M. Walker
| | Posted on Sunday, Nov 7, 1999 - 9:25 pm: |   |
My trainer and I were talking today, and wondering about the final height of my two-year-old youngster who grew an inch a month the first 5 months I had her, but has now slowed to 1/2 inch per month. We both think she'll be taller than either of her parents, and were saying that we "ought to do that measurement that is supposed to be able to predict height" but found neither of us new what this measurement was, and how much you multiplied it by. Anybody here know the answer? |
James R. Hughes
| | Posted on Sunday, Nov 7, 1999 - 9:35 pm: | |
If I remember correctly, take a string (rope) and place one end on the ankle and extend it to the elbow- then take the ankle end and extent it upwards and this was to be the heigth of your horse. People have told me it's been accurate to within 1/2 inch. I always figure they will grow until they stop
Jim |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
| | Posted on Monday, Nov 8, 1999 - 6:47 am: | |
Hello Gay,
If you tell me how many months old and what breed, I can give you an idea of how much more growth to expect.
DrO |
Gay M. Walker
| | Posted on Monday, Nov 8, 1999 - 11:35 am: | |
Hello Dr. O--
She's a Hannoverian, 2 years 8 months old, 15.1 1/2 right now.
Gay |
Sabine B. Marino
| | Posted on Monday, Nov 8, 1999 - 11:58 am: | |
Warmbloods grow much differently from, say, TBs who grow roughly 80% of their final hight within the first 2 years [conservative]. For one thing, you can't push a WB as much as a TB in terms of feeding it to grow faster in the beginning. So assuming that you have not pushed your youngster with overgraining and that he is a pure Hannoverian [no TB in the first generation at least], there are two factors which will determine his final height:
*size of the parents
*his own genetic make-up coupled with environment [feed stuff, etc.]
Do you know how tall the parents are? She might take after her dam [majority of cases] and then she might take after her sire if he is known to throw big babies.
Having said all this, 15,1 1/2 at 20 month is relatively small for a WB, and I guarantee you that the string will not work. It never has for me. I have a TB/Trakehner filly. She stands 16.1 at 18 months. Her mom is 16.2 and her sire 16.3, so I would say that she will end up 16.2 or 16.3 looking at the length of her legs, cannong bone, forearms and overall appearance. Just because she is fairly tall already doesn't mean that she will be 17 hands. On the other hand, I will not exclude the possibility that your mare will not grow to be over 16 hands, but I frankly doubt it. My educated guess, not knowing anything more is that she will go 16 hands. You ddn't mention the exact size of her parents. Anyhow, she'll be big enough to be admitted into the stud book should she pass any of the approvals. I think 15.2 is the cut-off point.
Sabine |
Darren Robertson
| | Posted on Monday, Nov 8, 1999 - 5:49 pm: | |
Just to throw a spanner into everyones line of thinking, yes I know height is based on genetics but food has more input than most people think. Just look at the japanese now they have McDonalds the kids are 12 inches taller than their parents.
Friends of ours have a two year old arab colt, his sire is 15.1 and his dam is 15 then colt is currently 15.3 and growing. I know these people feed horses to near bursting point.
So even with purebreeds that go back centuries it is possible to change their final height with consistant feed. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
| | Posted on Tuesday, Nov 9, 1999 - 6:39 am: | |
Hello Gay,
Well at 32 months of age your horse has reached at least 98% of her final height. Using this number she may grow from 1/2 inch to an inch and a half.
I wanted to discuss Sabine's number because I think people often are talking different things when they discuss this popular subject. By 24 months of age light breeds (includes TB's) have reached around 96% of their final height. Of course they are born at over 60% of their final height. So this 96% means they still have a little over 10% of their growing still to occur.
DrO |
Sabine B. Marino
| | Posted on Tuesday, Nov 9, 1999 - 11:23 am: | |
o.k. let's see what final height we come up with then among our estimates: the horse is presently 15.1 and 1/2. So, final height might be between
15.2 and 15.3, right?
Being a WB and a notoriously slow growing breed, she may go as much as 16 hands. Would you agree with me on that, DrO? :-)
Again, even at 15.2, she can pass the inspection which might be your biggest concern.
Sabine |
Darren Robertson
| | Posted on Tuesday, Nov 9, 1999 - 5:39 pm: | |
I just love being different :-)
I have the poor little mare that almost got killed by lightning and her breeders did not look after her very well when only one side of her face worked.
She came good and they sold her as a drought affected 4 year old at 14hh.
When I got her 6 months later she was closer to 14.1. After I had her for 4 months I decided to really feed her up because her coat never looked good, I increased her hard feed and she started to shine then it went away again, I increased her feed she started to shine again then stopped. I thought something wierd is going on here so I increased her feed to almost the same as my brood mare about 5kg of hard feed.
She still didn't shine, but the I noticed she was harder to push around. The light bulb went on so I measured her again in less than 3 months she grew 2 inches in height and lenghtened a lot of inches. This is just before her 5th birthday.
She was bred to be about 15-15.1 so she was sold as being 4 inches shorter than she should have been, but with severe feeding she almost made it, her coat now shines and she is a bit pudgy. I might get another half inch out of her yet.
Horses are soooo adaptable, Australian Brumbies only grow to 12hh as 2 year olds then the fillies are usually in foal, this slows their growth lots they might get to 13 and a bit by 4-5years, then once they are fully established in the mob and get onto the best feed they then finish growing at 7 years or so. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
| | Posted on Wednesday, Nov 10, 1999 - 7:29 am: | |
Hello Sabine,
16h is possible though very optimistic.
DrO |
Lorraine H. Robinson
| | Posted on Friday, Nov 12, 1999 - 12:13 am: | |
And then let's consider drafts--Shires specifically--just to be really different. My 11 yr old mare is 17.2 hh. Her grandson, out of a 17 hh mare and by a 17.3 hh stallion, is about 15.2 hh now at 20 mos. He and the mare are both what is called "old style"--relatively shorter, stockier, they look like farm horses.
My 19 mo filly is "new style"--taller, lighter, not so broad. A hitchy sort of Shire. She is 16.3 hh now and keeps growing. It's funny--the colt is putting his groceries into getting bigger all over at the same time, so it's really hard to notice him growing. The filly puts hers into getting fat, then suddenly dumping it all into getting tall and skinny--I swear I'm embarrassed sometimes for folks to see her, when she's in her rangy stage she looks like I never feed her!
And drafts keep growing til they're 5 or 6...she'll probably be a real cherrypicker at 18 hh or more, and the colt will probably finish up around 17.2 or 17.3 hh.
She can wear a regular horse halter on her dainty feminine head, though, and the colt is already in a full draft size!
Lorri |
Jody Gomez
| | Posted on Sunday, Nov 14, 1999 - 7:09 pm: | |
You never know with these guys. This is a true story though I know unbelievable - my eight year old mustang grew another inch in the past year. Last year he was 16 hands by the stick on hard, flat dirt, this year around the same time, we measured him the same way and he is 16.1. Go figure. My yearling mustang colt is 14 hands and was a spring baby so he won't be two until April. When we adopted him in March, he looked like a (little) weanling. I really do think feed has so much to do with this because both of these guys were really dinky when I got them. |
Terence Williams
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2000 - 10:57 pm: | |
I am a new horse owner. How do you determine how many hands a horse is? |
Terence Williams
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2000 - 11:01 pm: | |
I am a new horse owner, can you give me some advice on weaning?
I have a new paint quarter horse stud foal.
I do not want to cut him, can you tell me what I need to do? |
Laurie-Ann
Member
Username: Maggienm
Post Number: 2
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, Mar 14, 2004 - 8:46 pm: | |
Dr O I understand that the cannon bone is one of the first bones to stop growing. Is that right? I have been told to measure the connon bone after 6 months and that will translate to the horse height. If the bone is 15" the height will be 15 hands, with 1/4 horses short cannons this might not work for them. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 10087
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Monday, Mar 15, 2004 - 10:29 am: | |
Yes the cannon quits growing somewhere between 6 and 18 months of age and somewhere I read that it is 90% of its adult length when the horse is born. I too have seen such recommendations on estimating height but have not seen them validated anywhere. Our article on height estimation, Care for Horses » Routine Care & Procedures » Weight, Condition, and Eventual Height Estimation does give you some verified quidelines for estimating height.
DrO |
Gay M. Walker
Member
Username: Gmwalker
Post Number: 113
Registered: 11-1999
| | Posted on Monday, Mar 15, 2004 - 4:49 pm: | |
It's funny that I just got a reminder on this thread. My little mare, and I do mean little, never really grew much more. She's 15.3 hands--just large enough for the AHS studbook. She's had one foal, who looks to have gotten some (not much) height from her dad (16.3 h), and will probably be 16.0 or 16.1 hands when she matures--her cannon bones are just a smidge longer.
This mare has the SHORTEST cannon bones I've ever seen. If you tried to estimate height from them, you'd have been off by several hands! Hilary Clayton says that bodes well for soundness in the lower limb, but the mare unfortunately had a pasture injury (we believe she was kicked), and tore the medial collateral ligament in her stifle when she was 3 and is destined for life as a broodmare. She's given me one premium foal thus far, and is a delight to own, though--so I can't complain too loudly. |
Laurie-Ann
Member
Username: Maggienm
Post Number: 4
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Friday, Mar 19, 2004 - 11:24 am: | |
I have been told that very short cannnons predispose a horse to navicular disease. Do you think there is any truth to that? Thanks |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 10118
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Friday, Mar 19, 2004 - 7:40 pm: | |
No, it makes no sense at all.
DrO |
Gay M. Walker
Member
Username: Gmwalker
Post Number: 114
Registered: 11-1999
| | Posted on Friday, Mar 19, 2004 - 9:53 pm: | |
Dr. Hilary Clayton, a vet who specializes in studying biomechanics of movement, did a study of characteristics as related to soundness. She specifically found that short cannon bones were positively related to longterm soundness in the lower limb--which would include the navicular. So I would say that her series of more than 100 horses definitely ruled out there being any truth to what you heard. |
Christos Axis
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 311
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, Mar 20, 2004 - 8:32 am: | |
Laurie,
The canon bone is the main lever that moves the horse. The shorter it is, the easiest for the horse, and the less wear and tear on adjacent joints, tendons and ligaments. |
Liliana Velasco Ariza
Member
Username: Liliana
Post Number: 68
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Mar 25, 2004 - 10:51 am: | |
Hello there Terence,
How are you, I have not seen any answers to your questions, so here I go; normally to measure a horse one uses hands, originally people used the with of their hand to determine the height of a horse or pony. 1 hand is about 4 inches, any animal up to 14.2hh is considered a Pony, and you measure from the floor to the wither therefore a 14.2 pony would be 56.8inches.
You mention a stud foal, I guess what you are trying to say is a colt (male) foal; in my opinion nature is wiser than any of us, my colt is almost 14 months old and he still suckles on occasions, I guess is more for comfort rather than nourishment, he has been allowed to be with his mother and father, so they have been his trainers to a point, they are very well mannered so the colt is the most gentle animal I have ever had, he knows no fear, trusts us 100% hence he is very easy to train, all we need to do is be a little patient when we introduce something new. He is excellent with the farrier; of course he is not shod at all now.
Please do not feel embarrassed to ask, none of us are experts from the beginning and I think it is very wise from your part to try and educate yourself rather than just see what happens and make your horse suffer.
If there is anything else I can do to help please do not hesitate to write to me
All the best
Liliana
|
Lori
Member
Username: Maggienm
Post Number: 43
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, Feb 19, 2005 - 9:17 am: | |
Help with the math please. Dr. O, you said that a horse at 24 months a horse has reached 96% of final growth then said that means they still have 10% of growth left. Wouldn't it be 4%? I know someone is laughing their head off. math is not my strong suit.
So 10% of 16 hands is 16 x 4=64 x 10% =6.4 so a horse that matured at 16 hands would be 14.2 at 24 months?
Gay, if you are still out there what did your horse mature at? |
Christos Axis
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 617
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, Feb 19, 2005 - 12:55 pm: | |
It is simple, Lori,
DrO says that a horse is born, let's say, 60% of the final height. That leaves 40% to go, ie the horse's total growing, from birth to full development, will be 40% of the final height.
At 24mo the horse has reached 96% of final height. There's 4% to go.
That's 10% of total growing, not 10% of final height.
|
Gay M. Walker
Member
Username: Gmwalker
Post Number: 123
Registered: 11-1999
| | Posted on Saturday, Feb 19, 2005 - 4:06 pm: | |
She matured to just a smidge under 16 hands.
I've found the "string test" to be pretty accurate in all cases, with the exception of my surviving twin, who shot pretty much off the chart for growth in the first 3 months...and her proportions changed incredibly. The estimate at a few days old suggested 14 hands, but done again looks like she'll be a normal for her warmblood breed of 16.2 or thereabouts...and she's about the same size as the other warmblood weanlings we have born around the same time. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 12127
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Saturday, Feb 19, 2005 - 6:04 pm: | |
Christos has it right you are confusing the percent of the final total height with the percent of the amount of total growth. In one you start at a height of 0 and in the other you start with the height at birth. Refigure using the 96 to 98% figure and you will get the approximate height at 24 months.
DrO |
Christine C. Mills in NC
Member
Username: Chrism
Post Number: 1064
Registered: 4-1999
| | Posted on Monday, Feb 21, 2005 - 2:19 pm: | |
Um, Lori -
Don't forget to convert hands to inches. 96% of a 16 hd horse (use 64 inches) is 61.44 inches. 96% of a 15 hd horse (use 60 inches) is 57.6 inches. Just multiply number of inches of expected adult height by .96.
HTH.
|
Imogen Bertin
Member
Username: Imogen
Post Number: 726
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Dec 1, 2005 - 4:10 pm: | |
My head is hurting after reading the article and this thread and others on height estimation.
My filly is approximately half Irish draft, half thoroughbred (if you want to be fussy she's 9/16 Irish draft, 4/16 Holsteiner and 3/16 Irish thoroughbred).
Both parents are 16 hands 2. She is now 7.5 months and 13 hands ok maybe 13 hands 1 it depends when you measure her. She hasn't really grown since I weaned her at 5 months although she put on about 15 kg according to the weight tape and currently weighs 250 kg although I think some of that is winter fur. I weaned her maybe a little bit early but she was growing so fast and had such long/upright pasterns I was worried she'd get OCD.
According to Dr O's article if I understand it right she's likely to end up 16 hands.
The other two methods advised in the various threads were measure the elbow to the chestnut and, if I understand it, add that on to find the final height (can't really understand this one, surely the bigger the foal is when you do this the bigger the final height estimation...?) anyway that's 12 inches.
... or is it measure elbow to fetlock and then add that on?
... and also measure mid-knee to mid-fetlock which gives me 12 inches and add that on to the current height which gives me 16 hands again. or maybe just about 16h1
Can anyone unconfuse me? Or am I right in which case she'll likely end up too small for yours truly at 6 ft/11 stone unfortunately!
Thanks
Imogen |
Imogen Bertin
Member
Username: Imogen
Post Number: 729
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, Dec 4, 2005 - 9:03 am: | |
Hey mathematicians where did I go wrong? I decided to try all three estimation methods and they all come out decidedly different...
First I measured the filly again on a concrete stable floor. When her head is up ie not stooping to get more grub into her mouth from a feed bucket which is how I was measuring her before, she is actually 13 h2.
Dr O's method.
A 6 month animal is 83 to 86% of final height
A 9 month animal is 87 to 90% of final height.
So I said ok she is 7.5 months, let's say 86%.
13 h2 is 54 inches. So 54 x 100 / 54 = 62.79 inches or about 15 h3.
The canon bone length method (measure mid knee to mid fetlock - add to horse's current height). She is 12 inches from knee to fetlock so final height would be 16 h 2.
The elbow to fetlock method - measure elbow to fetlock, add it to the elbow to ground height.
Elbow to fetlock (dunno why, I measured this one in centimetres) 72 cm. Elbow to ground 90 cm Total 162 cm which is 16 hands.
Or is it just that you can take your pick which one suits your aims?
Still confused... I promised to return to this thread in 2.5 years and tell you what she made! Though I have always been told that drafts and draft crosses can continue to grow until they are 5.
All the best
Imogen |
Lilo
Member
Username: Lilo
Post Number: 219
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, Dec 4, 2005 - 9:33 am: | |
Imogen - your result is correct for method 1 - but to get there you have to do this:
54 x 100 / 86 = 62.79 inches
You probably just have a typo.
Lilo |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 14262
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Sunday, Dec 4, 2005 - 9:58 am: | |
The problem is that none of these techniques are precise to within several inches Imogen so all these answers probably fall within the margin of error. Then again I think your assumption to take the largest size of 6 months would not be how I would do the estimate using our formulas. Instead I would have taken the average of the 2 ranges (appx 85 to 88%)and calculate a minimum and maximum estimate of the final height.
DrO |
Lori
Member
Username: Maggienm
Post Number: 97
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, Dec 4, 2005 - 10:23 am: | |
Imogen,
My understanding is when you measure from the mid-knee, I use the crease that is present in young horses, let the tape fall to the coronet band. If you measure 15in the final height will be 15 hands, 15 1/4" will be 15.1.
When you measure from the elbow to the ergot hold the tape carefully at the elbow and pivot the tape from the ergot up to the withers. The tape should extend higher than the withers. This is the tricky part, you have to 'eyeball' where the final height will be.
In the past couple of years I have used both methods on a number of youngsters. Most of these horses still have some growing to do but so far it appears that the knee to coronet measure is the most accurate.
Hope this helps. |
Imogen Bertin
Member
Username: Imogen
Post Number: 730
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, Dec 4, 2005 - 12:12 pm: | |
Thanks all
Lilo yes, typo, working too many hours, the details are getting lost!
Dr O, that makes sense I was just a bit confused why the range in the article goes up to 6 months then 9 months on - does something weird happen between 6 and 9 months that makes the formulas hard to use then?
Lori - I'll try the coronet one, given that this foal has ridiculously long pasterns it's definitely going to give me the answer I am hoping for!
Thanks all, this site is just the best.
Imogen |
Karen Reilly
Member
Username: Poncho
Post Number: 9
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, Nov 15, 2006 - 11:54 am: | |
I have a 18 month old QH filly, I taped her and she was 14.2 at the withers and 15 on the hind. Translate, she was 58 inches, if we go by the 94% she should end up to be 15.2 or 15.3...is that right??? |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 17096
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 6:18 am: | |
The math should look like this, with X being the final height:
X(.94) = 58
X = 58 / .94
X = 61.7
This translates to a little under 15.2. |
Imogen Bertin
Member
Username: Imogen
Post Number: 854
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 2:51 pm: | |
It's nearly a year since I last posted on this thread.
My filly is now 15h 1.5 and 18 months as I happened to measure her today. Using Dr O's article she is now 94 to 96% of final height
X(.94)=61.5 or X = 61.5/94 = 65.4 inches or 16h1.5 at a stretch or
X(.96)=61.5 or X=61.5/96 = 64 inches or 16 hands
Here's still hoping because 16 hands 1 would be minimum height for me to keep her to ride myself... I'm not giving up just yet since mum and dad are both over 16h2. Maybe I'll have shrunk a bit through osteoporosis by then! She'll definitely carry my weight at 11 stone but I look a bit too tall when I ride her mother... See picture of both in my profile.
Another update next year!
Imogen |
Lori
Member
Username: Maggienm
Post Number: 265
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2006 - 10:44 am: | |
Imogen, I hope you get the height you are loking for.
I am now in the same boat hoping my filly will get tall enough.
You have probably experienced the same thing I have where the size of the barrel affects the
'fit' as much as the height. |
Imogen Bertin
Member
Username: Imogen
Post Number: 855
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2006 - 2:49 pm: | |
Yes, I agree, Lori, but actually the size of my filly's barrel gives me some hope she will still grow as she does not look "right" yet (barrel too large for the rest of her, see the pic in the profile). Mind you, she could still just turn out to be both small and ugly with a large barrel of course...
Imogen |
Shawna
Member
Username: Qh4me
Post Number: 220
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, Dec 6, 2006 - 2:48 pm: | |
Hi Dr.O
Your table is helpful, but I have a 7 month old QH colt that currently stands 13.2 at his withers. Using your table, there is no % listed for 7-8 months.
Could I use the high end of the 6th month (86%) and be fairly accurate.
If that is the case, that means he could potentially be 16.2??
Mare is 15hh and sire is 16.0 so I was hoping for something in between. But over 16 will be fine too! |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 17219
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 7:48 am: | |
Shawna, I suspect there is considerable overlap between the 6th and 7th month ranges so you should also use the low end for a range of probable heights. But when I double check your math I get a little under 15.3 hands.
DrO |
Ella
Member
Username: Ella
Post Number: 20
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 10:41 am: | |
So my 18 month yearling that is currently within a half inch of 16h at the withers is going to get to be about 17h.
I have raised a giant! (mom and dad were only 16h but there is a grandparent on both sides that is 17h)
Ella  |
Susan Jeys
Member
Username: Sjeys
Post Number: 131
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 10:59 am: | |
Along these lines, I had a beginners question. If the height is genetically determined, then why do people insist on feeding rich foods to "speed up" growth. Besides the risks of OCD et.al, are they thinking that they can sell the youngster faster if they are bigger?
I guess I'm not understanding why if you are going to get a 16hh horse to end with, why you would push their growth in the early years...aren't you going to end up with what genetics gave you in the first place?
I am assuming no malnutrition since that will obviously stunt their growth. |
|
