Equine & Horse Advice: Complete Feeds

Discussion on Complete Feeds - Info Requested

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MaryS

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 14, 1999 - 7:17 pm:

Dear Dr. O and others,

The barn where I board my horse is changing from a sweet feed provided by a local supplier to Purina brand Strategy feed. I believe it is advertised as a pelleted complete feed. Next week there is an informational meeting with a representative (salesman) from Purina where boarders may ask questions. To prepare for this meeting I am trying to find out information on this feed, or on "complete feeds" in general. If anyone has some information, experience or comments on this please share what you know. I would like to know (before the meeting) what is in the feed - but can not find that information anywhere. I have read the Nutrition section on this site.

Thanks
Mary S.

MaryS

Posted on Monday, Dec 27, 1999 - 6:53 pm:

Correction of Error re: Purina Stategy

Hello All,

Well, since I was the one who started at the top of this thread, and made an error in my post to boot, I wanted to take a moment to summarize my experience with the sales rep and to apologize for my error.

Regarding the protein content of Strategy, I double checked with the Purina web site and found that it is indeed 14% and not 12% - Thanks to Jim H. for pointing out the error. My mistake was that I was reading one of the three (Junior, Adult and Senior) product descriptions on part of their site; the one for Equine Adult. I did not realize at that time that Equine Adult was a separate product from Strategy. This led me to my second mistake regarding Strategy - where I questioned that Purina would promote a benefit of their product as "Feed with or without pasture or hay. Stretch hay supply and reduce variability in horse's diet." While this recommendation does appear (on the Purina web page under the Features/Benefit) for the Equine Adult product, it is NOT posted in reference to Strategy. There is no Features/Benefit list for Strategy. My apologies to all that were mislead by my error. All I can say is that it was an honest error and that I have learned to be more careful in the future.

Regarding meeting with the Purina Sales rep for those of you who are interested (someone e-mailed me asking what was covered, etc.) The rep presented an overview of equine nutrition and feeding practices. He also covered how he felt Strategy fulfilled the needs of the horse. Then he took any and all questions. In general it was informative and good to meet someone who has apparently dealt with many horse owners and farms in our region (Northeast US). I imagine he could be quite a good resource for information for farm owners.

Mary S.

Marion Dickinson

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 14, 1999 - 8:54 pm:

Dear Mary:

There is a lot of information on the Purina Web Site. It is http://horse.purina-mills.com. They provide details of whats in the feeds and also a lot of data on complete feeds.

I, personally, continue to find feeding an enigma.

Good Luck.

Robert N. Oglesby DVM

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 15, 1999 - 7:09 am:

Hello Mary,
To me,complete feed means: take the place of concentrate and forage. I personally do not believe a pelleted feed can provide what equine nutritionist sometimes call "scratch factor" that is provided by forage. Scatch factor is related to the amount of undigestible carbohydrate (roughage) and even perhaps the length of these fibers in the feed.

Without enough scratch factor horses tend to start chewing wood and may develop pica or/and vices like cribbing. This relationship is well established but poorly understood. Certainly the decreased chewing time of nonforage feeds is a big part of the problem. But also increased cecal acidity seems to be in part related to these behavoral problems.
DrO

Robert N. Oglesby DVM

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 15, 1999 - 7:22 am:

Marion,
What is the enigma? Feeding horses is really simple: Good quality forage free choice and then enough good quality concentrate to keep the weight just right. Throw in: make all changes slowly and all else is just detail and fluff.
DrO

Marion Dickinson

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 15, 1999 - 9:54 am:

Hi Dr. O:

I guess it's the 'detail' and 'fluff' that creates the enigma.

I have read contradiction after contradiction from 'experts' with great crudentials about what and how much to feed a foal to 3 yr old.

Alfalfa is always a controversial subject, also.

Breeders and many vets are now advising to feed babies much less concentrates with very low protein--quite the opposite of what the manufacturers (Purina, for example) recommend. Everyone is frightened of OCD, etc. with the warmbloods.

My 3-yr. old (who, incidentally, is still sick with the respiratory problem) is on free-choice good quality grass hay and pasture. I give her only a handful of oats while the others eat. Yet she is dangerously obese. If I cut the hay, then I worry she won't have enough roughage. She has had the thyroid test and it is normal. She can't get exercised because she is ill and also lame behind with DJD.

Ann Womack

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 15, 1999 - 11:36 am:

Dr O, I'm so glad to hear you say that! After many years of worrying whether I'm doing the right thing, adding all the right stuff & reading all the propaganda, I'm with you. I now feed all my horses based on the K.I.S.S. method! Whatever is fed, make sure it's clean, that garbage grain isn't covered up by molasses, free choice grass or grass/alfalfa mix hay and clean, fresh water. Sure, there are exceptions to everything but I wouldn't feed a complete feed for anything, I just can't get my head around a horse with no hay! And have you ever read the feeding recomendations on the Purina Equine Jr bag? Good lord! I guess it's OK if you're raising feeder cattle, but I can't imagine stuffing that much grain into a weanling. These poor halter babies, I guess the people don't care what the rest of their life is like as long as they can put on that silver halter & win the big one!
Ann

Emily French

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 15, 1999 - 12:49 pm:

Mary-
I have been useing Stratigy in my feeding program for the reason that it is one of the few lower carbohydrate feeds availible. I have to feed a low carb diet by necesisity, I have 2 horses with EPSM which require that type of diet. As for normal healthy horses I should think it would be just as good as any other quality feed as a part of a properly balaced ration. The one thing I really like is that because it is not a "sweet feed" I have a lesser concern of spoilage and a more consistant product out of the bag.

My personal advice would be to look at the diet that is being feed as a whole, if the individule parts are clean and of quality then look at how each plays a part in the whole nutrition of the diet. I think Dr O has an artical on how to balance a ration. if not I can send you the stuff I have. The main thing to remember with feed horses is that too much of any good thing can cause problems.

MaryS

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 15, 1999 - 7:12 pm:

Thanks Dr. O and others for your swift comments and information, it is very sensible and helpful. I have a question (sorta' on the technical side) and a comment (sorta' on the complaint side).

From the Purina web site it states that the guaranteed crude protein is 12% - and that is all the information on protein that is supplied. From another web site, I found information on the "quality" of protein and lysine in feed. The article, Beyond Protein Basics, by Bill Vandergrift, at seems to indicate (if I am understanding the article) that this stuff, lysine, is very important to how the horse can use the protein in the foodstuff and should be used as in indicator in the quality of the feed. You can check it out at http://www.manepoints.com/nutrition/1098fallnutr.html

My Question: Is it reasonable to expect the lysine percentage to be available information for a complete feed, for purposes of judging its quality? Or, is this information more useful in the ivory towers of nutritional studies than in the day-to-day effort of feeding horses on the farm?

My Comment: In my opinion, Purina does a disservice to horses with the following on their web page. Under the Features and Benefits of the Equine Adult feed it states:
Feature: Includes high-quality fiber
Benefit: Feed with or without pasture or hay. Stretch hay supply and reduce variability in horse's diet.

Now, I am a relatively novice horse owner - but if this doesn't sound like sales BS I don't know what does. I find it very irritating that such a highly respected company that appears to make good quality products and claims all over the place to have the best interest of the animal as a primary concern would not only condone, but even list as a "benefit", that the horse does not need to be fed hay (or some type of roughage). Additionally, marketing like this makes it easier for boarding facilities to point to it and say "Hey, even Purina says you don't need hay with it. So I can cut your horses hay from the 5 flakes a day he was getting down to one … or even none. It won't be any problem….". Just my opinion.

Thanks for you help.
Mary S.

Robert N. Oglesby DVM

Posted on Thursday, Dec 16, 1999 - 7:40 am:

Hello All,
Lysine is one of the essential amino acids. Amino acids are the building blocks for protein and protein is essential for every body tissue we have.

Picture you are building a house out of building blocks but you have 22 different shape blocks. Block 1 "mates" with block 2. Block 2 mates with block 1 and block 3 but no other block. Block 3 mates with block 2 and block 4 but no other block. And so on. Now imagine you only have enough of block 3 to build 1/2 the house. Though you have lots of all the other blocks it does you no good. This is the problem with essential amino acid difficiencies.

Though the total protein may be perfectly adequate if just one amino acid is deficient you are in trouble. Almost all cereal grains are deficient in lysine. Fortunately soy beans, canola, fish meal, and milk byporducts are a rich source of this critical amino acid. One way to check to see if this is OK you could look for these ingredients in corn, oat, or barley based feeds. Grasses, though maybe marginal in threonine, should have a adequate profile of amino acids and legumes are OK also.

So does this change any of our original recommendations? No: good quality forage free choice and just enough good quality concentrate to maintain good condition still applies.

Marion, I do not think any knowledgable horse nutritionist would argue with: if your horse is pig-fat on grass and hay alone you need to decrease his time on pasture and substitute a less rich hay. If he comes off pasture all together I would also supplement his vitamins.

Mary, I have to agree with your criticism of Purina. Purina is respectable enough to make me wonder if they have some proof that their feed can meet the "wood chewing test" but as I understand nutrition and from experience with horses not receiving adequate roughage, I would be surprised if a processed-pelleted feed would pass. I have not actually seen this feed, how big are the pellets?
DrO

Diann K. Toler

Posted on Thursday, Dec 16, 1999 - 3:20 pm:

Ann! I just had to add my two cents here in agreeing with you. We live next door to a big feedlot where Randy works occasionally. Last year they went to a "complete" feed and withing a very short time were buying up all the straw they could find and feeding it just for the roughage. This year they are back to hay. So it doesn't work for feeder cattle for sure!

MaryS

Posted on Friday, Dec 17, 1999 - 1:32 pm:

Dear Dr. O,

Thanks for the good description of the problem arising from differences in the essential amino acids. You state that " Grasses ... should have a adequate profile of amino acids and legumes are OK also.", so if this pelleted feed from Purina includes a good quality forage (processed) as is claimed, I suppose it would make sense that it's profile of amino acids should be ok too. However, I will ask the Purina sales rep. when I see him.

Regarding pellet size: Based on my memory, I would describe them this way. Imagine a pencil, chopped into pieces ranging from a half inch to three-quarter inch long. That is the approximate size and shape of the pellets.

Once again, thanks for your help.
Mary S.

James R. Hughes

Posted on Friday, Dec 17, 1999 - 11:26 pm:

I've been feeding Strategy to my horses for about a year- almost since it came out. I like it, but to my knowledge, it is not a complete feed as discussed. The package feeding instructions include hay and/or pasture. It also shows protein at a minimum of 14%, not the 12 as previously stated.

I will try to scan the label if anyone is interested or answer any questions about content.

Jim

A.F.M. Hyde-Clarke

Posted on Saturday, Dec 18, 1999 - 3:25 am:

To me, a complete feed means a balanced concentrate, preferably a coarse ration, that is fed alone without adding extra oats, bran, etc. etc. as so many horseowners like to do.

You feed as little as possible of this, and then give your horses free access to top quality hay and make sure they are out all day grazing. And there we are. As Dr. O says, really quite simple.

My only concern with the concentrate is that it should be made by qualified equine nutritionists, with the finest materials, genuinely balanced with all the right ratios, and regularly checked out by some authority. Here, in S.A., our feeds are tested constantly by our veterinary university/teaching hospital. And I don't like cubes because I like to see what is in the feed.

Robert N. Oglesby DVM

Posted on Saturday, Dec 18, 1999 - 3:39 am:

Hello James and AFM,
Well I am delighted that my favorite feed company appears to be on the straight and narrow, at least with its instructions if not its description.

It does point out the problem with names and labels: you never can assume that everyone is talking about the same thing as you. If a complete feed does not have adequate roughage what do we call feeds that are truly complete, like Sweet Rely, which are designed to be truly complete? How about "Truly Complete" or "Really Complete", no, no....I got it: "Completly Complete" now I like that!
DrO

A.F.M. Hyde-Clarke

Posted on Sunday, Dec 19, 1999 - 11:55 am:

Yes, I think that's it - "Completely Complete" - maybe we should suggest that to their ad agency! Or, just as a comparison

- Wholly complete
- Consummately complete
- Unconditionally complete
- Perfectly complete

but I think yours is the best!

AFM

Robert N. Oglesby DVM

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 28, 1999 - 7:09 am:

Hello Mary,
I will edit this post to prevent confusion, to anyone reading the top. There are too many other good point just to delete it.
DrO

Catherine J Tidwell (Duecat)

Posted on Sunday, Aug 6, 2000 - 10:40 am:

Hello all,
I'm new to this site and I have a ? about feeding a Weanling colt. I need to get him ready for the fall futurities and I would like to know where I can find a good feeding and exercise plan to get him in top health and coat condition. He is 4 months old.
Thanks
DUECAT

Hi Duecat,
Unless your post has a direct bearing on the initial question or subject, you should post your question in a new discussion to prevent confusion.

There is a better topic for your discussion that is more specific to your question. By using the appropriate topic you might find already existing information on your subject, get feedback from members who have a interest in that topic, and make finding related information easier for others with this problem.

Using the navigation frame at the left of this page select an appropriate topic. I suggest: The Horseman's Advisor: Care for Horses: Nutrition: Feeding the Growing Foal, Nutrition for Young Horses.

Once on the topics page take the time to review any articles and already existing discussions that may apply to your situation. If your question still remains unanswered select the appropriate forum and select: New Discussions. Choose a title that is descriptive so that others can find your post easily.
Thank you for helping to make The Advisor better,
Administration

Bernadette Pikus
Member
Username: Cozygirl

Post Number: 4
Registered: 3-2003

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 8, 2003 - 4:02 pm:

I have been feeding Strategy for about 1 1/2 years and I find it to be good. I feed the Strategy GX that's the one you feed with grass hay and Strategy AX is the one you feed with Alpha hay because the GX has more protein the the AX does. I have a Percheron Mare that is 16.1 hands tall,I feed about 3 pounds of Strategy GX to her for am and pm feeding and she also gets 14 to 18 lbs of grass hay am and pm. I would recommend that grain for anybody. Because it has done wonders for my mares. I have two older mares ages are 18 and 19 years old.

Molly Carl
Member
Username: Gageten

Post Number: 7
Registered: 11-2001

Posted on Thursday, Jan 8, 2004 - 8:23 pm:

I am SO confused Dr. O. I just read that the VERY latest research on horse nutrition is that you should have a feed that has AT LEAST 12% fiber. The only feeds that have 12% fiber are the so-called COMPLETE feeds. That means Purina Strategy is NOT a complete feed, since it only has 8% fiber. I just found out that my horse is being fed a product by Purina called Complete Advantage, which is advertised as a complete feed. It has 12.5 % fiber and 12.5% protein and 3.5% fat and 22-25% starch. HOWEVER, my barn is NOT using it in place of hay. They are feeding this AND good quality grass hay (like 6-8 flakes a day per horse.) Is this a bad thing; like massive fiber overload, or could this be the "new" and better way of feeding? The horses seem fit and healthy and very calm, but I don't want to keep feeding this way if it is wrong.

Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 9734
Registered: 1-1997

Posted on Friday, Jan 9, 2004 - 6:02 am:

No Molly,
If your horses are in great shape the absolutely wrong thing to do is start changing stuff around rapidly. Most of us feel that complete feeds do not supply adequate fiber length and enough chewing to really satisfy horses. When it comes to horses and fiber: the more the better.
DrO

Bonita
Member
Username: Bonita

Post Number: 452
Registered: 9-2000

Posted on Friday, Jan 9, 2004 - 9:09 am:

Molly - Don't worry. "Complete Advantage" is a TERRIFIC product. I've been using it for all my horses - youngsters on up - with nothing but wonderful results for the last 6 years.

I also agree with Dr. O that the so-called "complete" feeds, while high in fiber, are not necessarily "complete" - at least from the horses' point of view. My guys all get free-choice grass/timothy/alfalfa mix hay 24/7 in addition to their minimal grain feedings. I consider hay "something to do", as well as providing nutrition. Regardless of the nutritional viewpoint, I can't help but feel that horses who are just fed one of the "complete" feeds & no hay are extremely prone to developing vices just out of boretom.

Teresa Cates
Member
Username: Ribbons

Post Number: 5
Registered: 6-2002

Posted on Saturday, Jan 10, 2004 - 8:56 am:

Hello all,
I discovered the best way to evaluate feeds is to compare the tags on the bottom of the feed bags. That's the most detailed information I could find. I think Dr. O recommends this in his articles. I would add to keep checking them.I had used one product on my mare for over two years and this winter began to notice that she wasn't "doing" as well. I went to the manufacturer's website noticed they that no longer emphasized that the main source of carbs was beet pulp. Next time I got feed, I checked the tag at the bottom and saw they had added corn.My mare does not tolerate or digest corn very well which is why I originally chose this feed. I changed her to a "corn-less", beet pulp based feed and viola, she perked up, her topline came back and her coat's bloom returned.Now of cource, this new feed cost $2.00 more a bag...

Diane Butler
New Member
Username: Amadeus

Post Number: 1
Registered: 10-2004

Posted on Monday, Jun 20, 2005 - 12:01 am:

Although most posts are quite old, I'd like to add my two cents. Reading labels on feed bags is so important, as all feeds of the same type are the same quality or content. For example, Purina Senior lists as it's first ingredient "grain by-products". Triple Crown Senior (which costs more) lists "shredded beet pulp" as it's first. Both are the same protein, fiber (diff by 1% I think), yet TC Senior has 2X the fat Purina Senior does. Both claim that they can be fed to older horses who cannot eat hay (not teeth...). I have two who are in that situation who came in skin and bones, and now look great (both are getting TC Senior but started on Purina). One eats soaked alfalfa cubes, the other soaked alfalfa pellets in addition to their grain. Also on pasture 5 hrs day. Both are over 24, both TB, one mare, one gelding. The other seniors who are easy keepers get one or the other of the two feeds listed above, depending on the horse, though we have a variety of other horses varying in ages from 6 weeks to 32 years old. And several other feeds for all those in between the growth stage and geriatric!