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Pam P
| | Posted on Friday, May 7, 1999 - 8:01 am: |   |
I have been told that blood work (CBC, chem panel) can be used to check the "overall" health of a horse. I have an older horse and use blood work to "spot check" his health and hopefully spot any potential problems before they become serious. Am I wasting my time and money?
I don't depend exclusively on blood test, it is only one of the methods I use to maintain my horse's health.
Thanks
Pam |
The Advisor Vet, RN Oglesby DVM
| | Posted on Saturday, May 8, 1999 - 10:17 am: | |
Hello Pam,
What an excellent question and the true answer is: we do not know. With the advent of ivermectin as a anthelcide and the down fall of the large strongyle in the early 80's, horses are just beginning to live long enough to where we can learn something about geriatric medicine in them. Prior to ivermectin the large strongyle was near impossible to suppress and chronic damage to the mesenteric arteries that fed the bowel blood eventually did the horse in long before he turned 30.
There is no sign or test of good health as important as a healthy looking and acting horse. In general, I feel that taking laboratory work on horses that look good, have normal physical exams, and no history of behavior that might indicate disease is not profitable to the owner or horse. Is it possible you might turn up some disorder that by addressing it now you will save the horses life? Very unlikely. Could you turn up something that might change your management practices? Very unlikely.
I have toyed with the idea of making this part of a geriatric exam but just have not yet found a good reason to institute it. I have considered the early recognition of pituitary adenoma (Equine Cushings) as a possible justification but I have seen no information that laboratory changes occur prior to the onset of symptoms in fact many with clinical signs have normal labs. Nor would I change anything in the management of a healthy horse if I discovered it.
I do believe that one of the factors that most limits the quality of a horses life in his later years is his teeth. The basis for preserving them at this time is good nutrition including regular deworming and regular care aimed at correcting misalignments of the cheek teeth and incisors.
Pam I would love to have some examples of things the advisor of this procedure thinks one might uncover in a healthy appearing, normal acting horse. Let us know what you find out.
DrO |
Pam P
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 1999 - 7:12 am: | |
Thanks for your reply. I was not able to find my complete listing of what blood work can show. But here are a few things I can remember. Blood workups can indicate such things as anemia, viral/bacteria infections, worm infestation, adverse effects of bute etc. It can also be used to test for high levels of certain chemicals such as potassium. The first blood workup I had done was as a part of my current horse's pre-purchase exam. The vet suggested it because we did not know the horse's history. I have had that horse for 6 years and have had blood workups done for 5 years. I use the blood workups as sort of an early warning system to let me know that something is not quite right and that further investigations/diagnostics may be needed. Is this a valid/dependable use of blood workups?
I know that blood work can be inconclusive by itself, that is why I still take into acccount his appearance, appetite etc.
Thanks
Pam |
Viki
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 1999 - 12:09 pm: | |
Hi Pam.....I too have a blood test report on my 4 year quarter horse done when she is off in any way, but I am not the person who reads and interprets the blood test, my vet is. We started this last year when she was found staggering in the pasture and the vet was unsure as to the cause. We had just purchased her and we didn't know her history and she had just been given 5 different innoculations, so we were guessing:
vaccination reactions, weed posioning, brain tumor, or epm! Vet sent blood off and I have a copy of the results. Vet treated her for epm (very expensive), but she was never tested...due to the fact that she stopped staggering and showed no other signs after 2 1/2 days of treatment and Virginia Teach would only do test if horse was exhibiting signs at that time of the test.
I would like to know the normal levels looked for in a CBC blood test for each different item listed. Do you know where I could find these?
For example: humans blood pressure should be 80 over 120.........what are the levels suppose to be on the blood test? Thanks, Viki in VA |
Pam
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 1999 - 12:44 pm: | |
Viki, according to everything I know about blood tests (which is probably not much) each lab has its own "normal" range for each test. The blood results that you received should have your horse's level and what that lab's ranges are for each test performed. They (the lab) should also have marked each result that was higher or lower than their ranges. I know of at least two "blood" test. One is the CBC (complete blood count) and the other is a Chem Panel or Blood Panel. The CBC test red/white blood cells etc. The Chem Panel test other levels such as Potassium, cholesterol etc. Each lab's ranges will probably be different, due to the way they process or do their test. Basically what I do is make sure the lab has ran the test for the correct species, equine, (this should be noted somewhere on the lab report) and that the results are within that lab's normal range. Your vet should also look at these results and tell you if they suspect a problem. I hope this helps.
Pam |
The Advisor Vet, RN Oglesby DVM
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 7:16 am: | |
Pam is correct, each lab will develop its own normals that can be affected by such things as environment, population type, the machinery running the test, and even the person interpreting the test. In the perfect world everyone would get the same results on the same sample but in the real world.... In the last twenty years a real push has been made to insure that everone is measuring the same thing, but a lab's own normals are best.
Normals are reported out usually as one standard deviation which, someone correct me if I am wrong my statistics are rusty, roughly means 95% of the healthy individuals will fall within the normal and range and 5% of the healthy individuals will fall out of the normal range. This applies to each test within the CBD and chemistry panel.
If you run a standard chemistry and CBD on a healthy horse, you run an excellent chance that one and a good chance that several values may be out of the normal range. The question then becomes what is the significance in a otherwise healthy horse?
To address your list of concerns Pam, what are the chances you can have any of those diseases with no other clinical signs? I do recommend regular testing of horses who remain on bute over long periods of time. Some feel you might pick up signs of bute induced colitis or ulceration with a lowered total protein before the ulcers become clinically evident. There is still a lot to learn about this supposition nd to be effective may have to be repeated very frequently.
A much better, and cheaper, way to detect parasitism is using fecal floats.
Disease or nutritional problems resulting in anemia will invariably cause other clinical signs. Many veterinarians seem to be oblivious to the well known fact that horses store a large portion of their RBC mass in the spleen and release it to the blood stream during times of excitement or exercise. Because of this to get an accurate assessment of whether anemia is present or not the horse has to be exercised to a heart rate of 100 or greater. 5 minutes of fast trot or slow canter will ususally do the trick. I have a short article on anemia in horses.
I suspect in time CBD and routine chemistry lab values will be able to find some subclinical entities of significance in otherwise healthy appearing horses, but I do not know what they might be at this time.
DrO |
pam
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 1999 - 7:31 am: | |
Thanks Dr. O. Due to severe arthritis, my horse is on bute daily (indefinitely), so I will probably continue having the blood test drawn each year. It is really not that expensive and who knows, maybe it will "warn" of a problem before it become serious.
pam |
alfuller
| | Posted on Monday, May 17, 1999 - 1:33 pm: | |
I have recently thought about having blood test done on both of our Mares. One is off the track and we are having diffculty getting weight on her and some people have brought it to our attention that horses off the track will sometimes have ulcers our other Mare has a large bump on her crest. It has been suggested she might have a tyroid problem. Would blood test detect either of theses? |
The Advisor Vet, RN Oglesby DVM
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 1999 - 6:31 am: | |
Not routine tests. To detect thyroid problems requires a thyroid stimulating hormone test as routine T3/T4 levels are too variable for diagnostic purposes. There has been search for tell tale blood signs of ulcers but we hane not found it yet in the horse. Your experience with horses off the track is pretty common: track let down.
You do not say what kind of trouble you are having: not eating well or eating well but not gaining weight or... Can you be more specific including the what and the amount you are feeding, pasture conditions, and amount of turn out.
DrO |
Angela L. Fuller
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 1999 - 1:14 pm: | |
The Mare off the track is getting 2 lbs of Blue seals Vintage sweet and two lbs of Vintage gold with 1/2 cup of vegtable oil a vitamin supplement and strongid daily wormer at her evening feeding with as much hay as she can eat. Her morning feed is the same without the vitamin supplement and the wormer. We really have no pasture for grazing but she is turned out from 6:00 a.m. until usually 7:00-8:00 p.m. I was thinking of changing the Veg oil to corn oil. She does not always eat all of her grain in the morning she eats anywhere from 1 to 3 lbs so she is really getting anywhere from 5 to 7 lbs of grain a day. I would love to be able to give her more hay during the day but I am not home. She usually gets about 3 flakes. Any suggestions? Maybe it is just a matter of time?? |
The Advisor Vet, RN Oglesby DVM
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 19, 1999 - 6:06 am: | |
How long has she been off the track? Did you paste dewormner (ivermectin or Quest) when you first got her? Has she been examined for any other signs of illness by a vet? One of the best ways to increase nutrient intake is to begin swithching out grass hays with alfalfa hay or cubes. Make the changes slowly.
DrO |
Angela L. Fuller
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 19, 1999 - 9:10 pm: | |
Kay, our mare, has been off the track since September of 1998 we bought her in Dec. of 1998. She was wormed with paste wormer prior to starting her on Srongid daily. I had a fecal done before I started the daily wormer and her teeth were done in March 1999. If I give her alfalfa cubes how many should she get. I'm also concerned with her getting to much protein with all the grain she is getting. It appears that she has put on about 25 lbs since March. I read in another message that yawning and moving their tongue around could be signs of pain. Is this true? She sometimes appears to be straining when she urinates. We are not used to having a high maintence horse so I may just be paranoid. |
The Advisor Vet, RN Oglesby DVM
| | Posted on Thursday, May 20, 1999 - 7:47 am: | |
Maybe, and since she has started putting weight on I am less worried about undefined illness. All the behaviors you describe are also seen in healthy horses. We have one that really enjoys a good micturation: parking out and grunting loudly with each pulse of the urine. Then holding the position as though well let's leave it at that, this is a family site.
Your concern about protein should be mot be founded in just the grain but also the quality of the hay also. People often forget that protein requirements are not based on the amount in the concentrate but the amount in the total diet. The thing about alfalfa is that it is usually the hay used in running horses and its familiarity and increased palatibility may be a way to get more roughage in the horse. If I was going to start a horse out on them I would start at about a pound twice daily then add a lb to each feeding every 5 days till I reached the amount desired.
DrO |
julie haimowitz
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jun 2, 1999 - 1:50 am: | |
DR."O"..HI MY HORSE RECENTLY HAD SOME BLOOD WORK DONE AND EVERYTHING CAME BACK NORMAL, EXCEPT I WAS TOLD SHE HAD ANEMIA...THE BLOOD WAS TAKEN HOWEVER WITHOUT THE HEART RATE BEING ELEVATED...POSSIBLE SHE'S NOT ANEMIC AFTERALL??? SHE IS SUPPOSE TO GO TO BE BRED NEXT WEEK...SHOULD I WAIT AND HAVE HER RECHECKED OR LET HER GO AND PUT HER ON A SPECIAL SUPPLEMENT?? NO PATICULAR VITAMIN WAS RECCOMMENDED, ANY SUGGESTIONS// THANKS JULIE |
The Advisor Vet, RN Oglesby DVM
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jun 2, 1999 - 7:17 am: | |
Yes, ignore the anemia findings they are meaningless, and discuss what we talked about in this discussion with your vet. I would be interested in what is said.
DrO |
Carrie M. Allen (Blueyes)
| | Posted on Monday, Mar 12, 2001 - 1:56 pm: | |
One point I would like to make in reference to using bloodwork as a tool for monitoring the "overall" health of a horse. First of all, I think bloodwork can be a valuable tool in identifying obvious fluxuations that indicate a problem. However, please keep in mind that very seldom does bloodwork give any indicators of problems such as mild pesticide poisoning and other issues which can subtley effect a horse's circulatory, lymph or glandular systems. Sometimes the issue is just small enough to cause health issues for the horse, but not significant enough to show up in bloodwork. My suggestion is that if you have had bloodwork done on your horse and have not been able to determine the source of a problem, try consulting an alternative practioner who may have other resources to help pinpoint problems that would not show on a CBC or other panel. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2001 - 7:31 am: | |
Hello Carrie,
HMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....using blood work and alternative practitioneers to turn up "health fluxations" with subtle effects on circulation and glandular systems sounds like a sure way (and expensive) way to fix problems of uncertain significance.
Can you give me examples of such diagnosis that have been made for you this way and what was done to cure the problem?
DrO |
Christine C. Mills (Chrism)
| | Posted on Thursday, Oct 18, 2001 - 12:01 pm: | |
I just had bloodwork done on my 18 yo mare as a baseline for her records. I had done the same for the yearling early this year. Unless a horse appears to have a problem, I probably won't do it again for a few years on either.
I suggested it for my older mare and my vet told me it isn't a bad idea - the previous week he'd done the same for a geriatric horse that showed some liver concerns.
Results of my mare's test showed everything to be in line except the calcium values were a little high and the wbc was a little low. We're going to chat about that tomorrow.
Horse appears healthy and is in steady work without meds, so I'm assuming those values are a couple of the "out of range" ones Dr. O mentions that are more of a curiosity. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Friday, Oct 19, 2001 - 6:08 am: | |
It is a statistical thing, and I know how you feel about those. The reported range of normal for each test is one standard deviation, that is 95% of the healthy horses fall in the range of each single test. 5% of the healthy horses fall out of the range. If you ran 20 tests the chance some would fall a little out of range is quite good in a healthy horse.
These tests really do not make a statement of, "is this horse sick or healthy". Very sick horses can have normal bloodwork and vice versa. These tests are at their best for defining the cause of illness in a horse that is showing clinical signs. Abnormal results in a otherwise healthy horse are of uncertain significance.
DrO |
Christine C. Mills (Chrism)
| | Posted on Friday, Oct 19, 2001 - 10:10 am: | |
I've nothing against statistics - I just happen to know one can create a bias if needed to prove a point, :D The application of statistics does take some understanding. Before computer printout had the automatic aura of "fact" - statistics did, ;)
I did find an interesting article calld "How to speak CBC in One Easy Lesson" - it helps with understanding the items being measured.
http://shady-acres.com/susan/cbc.shtml
Cheers. |
