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Discussion on Glucosamine for horses

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ruth sanderson (Thor)
Posted on Monday, Apr 2, 2001 - 11:46 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Has anyone else tried giving their horse the joint supplement Glucosamine xlplus? I have a 15 yr old QH gelding. A couple years age he was so stiff that he could barely canter on the right lead and he could no bend or use his hind end at all. We put him on gluc. and hes like a different horse! He can bend well, he has no trouble with his leads, and he is really using his hind end! Its amazing. I think gluc. xlplus is pretty expensive, but its worth it. If we had not put Shadow on it I doubt he would be usable. Now he is even more supple than our other, younger horse.I recommend it for all horses over 12 years old.
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Zoe English (Nonie)
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 3, 2001 - 6:00 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Is Glucosamine xplus different from other brands of glucosamine, like Grand Flex? Is this a specific product, or are you just referring to glucosamine in general? We have our 19 yr old Appendix on it, and the farrier says he can tell the difference in the horse's joint flexibility.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 3, 2001 - 8:02 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hello Ruth,
Can you tell us which active ingredients are in the product, the concentration of the ingredients, and the amount fed. This will give us a basis of comparision of the various products.
DrO
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Jordana Meisner (Presario)
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 3, 2001 - 8:53 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I too am interested in hearing the ingredients, particularly if it's glucosamine sulfate and not the HCL version. Grand Flex worked for us for a few years, but it seemed to lose it efficiency about a year and a half ago, and I haven't tried it again.
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Els Janssen
Member
Username: Julesfav

Post Number: 10
Registered: 7-2001
Posted on Thursday, Oct 2, 2003 - 12:40 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

We have been supplementing our racehorses with chondroitin & glucosamine for years as prevention. Every 6 months they are injected with Adequan, also prevention. Whenever one of them showed any sign of damaged cartilage in joints it was treated with injection in joint with hyaluronic acid. Now Cortaflex promotes Cortaflex HA, either as 30 day course to accelarate Cortaflex program (i.e. daily dose of Cortaflex Solution or - Powder), or as pre-competition boost.
Key ingredients of Cortaflex:
- Glutamine - Glycine
- Proline - Glutamine Acid
- Glucuronic Acid - Manganese Sulphate
- Sulphur - Vitamine B 6
- Copper Sulphate - Ascorbic Acid

Added to Cortaflec HA: Hyaluronic Acid.

Does anyone have any experience with these products, or opinion on this subject?

Els Janssen
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Cheryl Anderson
Member
Username: Canderso

Post Number: 192
Registered: 3-2000
Posted on Thursday, Oct 2, 2003 - 9:15 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Els,
I have been supplementing with Corta-flx for I guess 4 years now (my horse has low ringbone - see other posts for details).
Can I say that Corta-flx works? Well not definitively but I do know the lameness specialist who diagnosed Bailey's ringbone also predicted 3-legged lameness within a year or so. The vet is amazed at how well Bailey continues to go.
Note that I have also rather carefully restricted Bailey's activities and work as per vet's suggestions. So whether it is the corta-flx, the restricted activity, both, or just dumb luck I really cannot say.... but I am not stopping using the product!

Interesting to hear about the new product. Dr. O, can Hyaluronic Acid be effective in this form?

Cheryl
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Els Janssen
Member
Username: Julesfav

Post Number: 11
Registered: 7-2001
Posted on Friday, Oct 3, 2003 - 3:17 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Cheryl,
Thanks! My views on using glucosamin etc. is much the same as yours: we bought 3 yrs TB who had been raced in UK as 2 yrs and in x-rays showed some cartilage-damage. We had him treated with hyaluronic acid, took it real easy with him for a while and slowly built him up. Kept him on Adequan twice yearly & gluciosamin. Problem with joint began te recurr couple of times, treated with hyaluronic acid & rest again. As he got older he seemed to grow over problem. Raced him untill 7 yrs. he is now 9 yrs. and very happily and soundly enjoying his new carreer as riding horse.
In my experience with racing TB's, if you manage to keep them sound till they are really mature, i.e. 5 or 6 yrs., they usually remain sound. Unless they have some kind of accident causing injury, of course. I don't know for sure, if it is was just the fact that we know & monitor our horses really well, or combination of that plus the treatments & supplements.
Like you I would like to knwo Dr.O's opinion on this matter.
Els
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 9217
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Friday, Oct 3, 2003 - 6:43 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

As you may know, Corta-flx is now one of the oral glucosamine (glucuronic acid) products that has hard science behind it. In a well conducted double blind study lameness from osteoarthritis improved with it use, for more see Equine Medications and Nutriceuticals Anti-inflammatories: NSAID's, Steroids, and Arthritis Treatment The Joint Protective Treatments: Double-blind study of the effects of an oral supplement intended to support joint health in horses with tarsal degenerative joint disease. Hilary M. Clayton, MRCVS; et al.

When this study was first published we tried to find out how much of the above listed ingredients were in the bottle...without success. I guess we buy the stuff on blind faith: they could legally change the formulation at anytime.

Now they have included HA whose concentration and molecular weight is unknown. I can find no studies that support or refute the idea that orally administered HA is of benefit to osterarthritis. Despite the work available I use, and advise my clients to use, products that clearly state their contents and their amounts. As all of these products contain very complicated family of molecules that can vary significantly in their structure a big plus for me is also having the origin of the active ingredients on the label, but this does not happen often.
DrO
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Els Janssen
Member
Username: Julesfav

Post Number: 12
Registered: 7-2001
Posted on Monday, Oct 6, 2003 - 8:49 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dear Dr.O.,
You mean: the Corta-flx we buy might well contain different (amounts of) ingredients from the Corta-flx used in the double blind study. And as long as they don't specifically list both, you just don't know what you are paying for?
So: if I want to be sure my horses get the right amount of hyaluronic acid, I'm better of with 6-montly injections of Adequan, rather than buying Corta-flx HA?
Els
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Holly Wood
Member
Username: Hwood

Post Number: 395
Registered: 3-2001
Posted on Monday, Oct 6, 2003 - 9:45 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Els,

A product that does not claim "guaranteed analysis" can alter the %s of the ingredients in the product without notification on the label.

Holly
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 9223
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Monday, Oct 6, 2003 - 12:25 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Adquan does not containg HA it contains PSGAG see the article on joint supplements for an explanation. If you want to be sure your horse is getting a product that has a known quanity of HA delivered in a manner that has been shown in preliminary studies to be of benefit, then yes, you need to use a injectable HA product that is given IV.
DrO
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 9224
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Monday, Oct 6, 2003 - 12:28 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Holly I see you have your post up. The reason you had trouble last Friday morn was the site was being regenerated with some new java-script inclusions. We currently are working overtime upgrading our navigation system so there may be several such times in the next week or two and it has be behind in the newsletter too.
DrO
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Cheryl Anderson
Member
Username: Canderso

Post Number: 193
Registered: 3-2000
Posted on Monday, Oct 6, 2003 - 8:51 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

AHA! Friday I tried three times to post the guaranteed analysis on the powdered Corta-flx I buy in Canada... unfortunately I am on the road now... will post when I get back.
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Cheryl Anderson
Member
Username: Canderso

Post Number: 194
Registered: 3-2000
Posted on Wednesday, Oct 8, 2003 - 8:05 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Here is guaranteed analysis from my 10lb bucket of powder:
Crude Protein (min) 9%
Crude Fat (min) 0.5%
Curde Fibre (max) 24%
Sulfur (min) 0.08%
Copper (min) 1003 PPM
Maganese (min) 2822 PPM
Vitamin B-6 (min) 1259 mg/lb
Ascorbic Acid (min) 1198 mg/lb
Glutamine (min) 1%
Glucuronic Acid (min) 0.50%
Proline (min) 0.31%
Glutamic Acid (min) 0.30%
Glycine (min) 1%

This is for product No. 420C
There is also an ingredient statement, which, if it conforms to Canadian labelling laws, actually lists in decreasing order of presence:

Dehydrated alfalfa meal, animal protein products, yeast culture, L-Glutamine, Glycine, L-Proline, Glucuronic Acid, Glutamic Acid, L-Lysine,DL-Methionine, L-Alanine, L-Artinine, Aspartic Acid, Pyridoxine HCL, L-Serine, DL-Phenylalanine, L-Tyrosine, L-Histidine, L-Threonine, Ascorbic Acid, Maganese Sulfate, L-Isoleucine, L-Valine, Copper Sulfate, Sulfur, Mineral Oil, Sodium Benzoate (a preservative), Yucca Schidigera (a natural flavouring agent), Natural and artificial flavouring

Hope this helps...
Cheryl
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 9240
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Wednesday, Oct 8, 2003 - 9:03 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

This label illustrates the problem we had evaluating the liquid, which was the product that was tested in the study presented in the aricle. We were trying to evaluate the amount and type of of chondroitin in the product. To confound this evaluation they have reduced the ingredient of interest to some of the amino acids and basic molecules within the larger molecule. Even if we know the percent of a amino acid, let's say proline, in the chondroitin, the true amount of chondroitin remain unknown because of the contribution by the protein in the alfalfa is unknown. It appears to me to be a very elaborate system to hide the amount and type of chonprotin/PSGAG in the product.
DrO
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Cheryl Anderson
Member
Username: Canderso

Post Number: 195
Registered: 3-2000
Posted on Wednesday, Oct 8, 2003 - 1:10 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Sorry to be really thick but I want to be sure I understand.
Are you saying that even if the manufacturer continues to conform to the guaranteed analysis, it is possible the actual amount of chondritin (and presumably the resulting efficacy) could vary quite widely?
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Scott Fouch
Member
Username: Fouch

Post Number: 34
Registered: 3-2000
Posted on Wednesday, Oct 8, 2003 - 2:06 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dr. O
Of the products on the market, what are you recommending to your clients? There were so many different products, I just tried to find one that had both condroitin and glucosamine. I ended up buying FluidFlex w/Glucosamine HCl and Chondrotin Sulfate. The mare can barely bend her front legs for the ferrier. I have only been giving the supplement for 4 days.

This was the Descripiton:
This liquid feed supplement is the purest and most bioavailable joint supplement available to provide the nutrients needed for healthy cartilage, connective tissue and synovial fluid. Contains the following: 100 mg per oz. chondroitin sulfate, 2500 mg per oz. glucosamine HCl, purified GAGS, collagen polypeptides (amino acids), yucca, grape seed extract, vitamin C, bromelain, copper, zinc and manganese. Dosage for an adult 1100 lb horse, feed 2 oz. per day for 5 days, then 1 oz. per day thereafter.


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ANN COLLIER
Member
Username: Dres

Post Number: 268
Registered: 10-2000
Posted on Wednesday, Oct 8, 2003 - 4:10 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

http://www.equineperform.com/horse_glucosamine.asp

i use the above product, not sure how pure it is but have had good results with it.. and its cost effective..

Ann
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 9244
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Thursday, Oct 9, 2003 - 10:45 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

The problem Cheryl is what exactly is the guaranteed analysis saying in this case? It says there are some amino acids and some other breakdown products of the nutriceutical of interest in the product. It is not guarenteeing the molecules that we hypothesize are responsible for the positive clinical effects are in there, only suggesting it. Do you see a guaranteed amount of chondroitin or PSGAG on that list?

Scott I avoid putting out name brands in the boards because while formulations and even our knowledge or what is useful change, the words written in these discussions are hard to keep updated. Better is to keep the current state of our knowledge in one place. What I have done is gone in and edited the article on these products and I have updated the specific recommendations in there. See Equine Medications and Nutriceuticals Anti-inflammatories: NSAID's, Steroids, and Arthritis Treatment The Joint Protective Treatments for the updated information I think it will answer most your questions.
DrO



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Scott Fouch
Member
Username: Fouch

Post Number: 35
Registered: 3-2000
Posted on Thursday, Oct 9, 2003 - 1:32 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks for the information. It appears I bought the wrong product.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 9246
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Thursday, Oct 9, 2003 - 7:22 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Well perhaps a little unbalanced but remember we do not know which ingredients are helping and it may be the PSGAG. I certainly would use it up before buying something else.
DrO
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