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Emily French (Jcsmoon)
| | Posted on Sunday, Jul 8, 2001 - 10:47 am: |   |
Dr O.
Is there any truth to the saying that geldings grow taller than their stallion counterparts? If so at what age would the gelding need to be done to effect a change?
We just purchased an 11 month old colt that we have been toying with keeping a stud, however his eventual life will be as a horse for my husband. We hope that he will reach 15hh like his mother.
Would our chances be better if we geld him now, or is it too late for that to do much good?
-Emily |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Monday, Jul 9, 2001 - 8:09 am: | |
This is a debate that is unsettled in my mind Emily. I think it is fair to say it does not make a whole lot of difference from a height stand point though horses left to be stallions until their 3rd year will definately be "heavier" looking. Then again that extra inch can mean a lot in some situations
I use to believe that geldings grew taller: one of the signals for the bone's growth plates to close is testosterone. But recently I have seen work to suggest that other factors are also at work and so early gelding may not make much difference. If this is true you are not too late to geld as the growth plates close over many months during the second and third year.
DrO |
Emily French (Jcsmoon)
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jul 10, 2001 - 11:41 am: | |
What other factors are you speeking of? Diet, excersise... |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jul 11, 2001 - 6:26 am: | |
These other factors are conjectured based on the following logical progression: If testosterone promotes growth plate closure, a pretty well established effect, yet geldings grow taller, then there are other more important factors, somehow effected by the gelding, that are at work. I do not know what they would be but other hormones that effect growth are likely.
DrO |
Fiona Farrell (Lala)
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 7, 2002 - 1:09 pm: | |
What would be the earliest time to geld a colt, assuming both testicles have descended? I saw reference in a recent post to doing it as early as 5-10 days after birth.
What are the health (not behavioral) pros and cons of an early gelding other than the body muscling/height possible tradeoff?
Thanks, Fiona |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 7, 2002 - 7:39 pm: | |
Hello Fiona,
We cover this issue in Care for Horses: Disease Prevention and Health Care: Castration in Horses.
DrO |
Nastia von Ahsen
Member
Username: Nastazja
Post Number: 8
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jan 3, 2007 - 1:14 am: | |
Hi..
This seems to be a dead topic.. but I'll throw my two cents in...
I do not see why it is at all necessary to geld stallions.. they CAN be as rewarding and as gentle as mares are.. once just has to watch for the testosterone to kick in during certain months of the year.
Geldings will lose their testosterone when gelded too early, and will be usually smaller than stallions - again, that is my observation. Also.. geldings, at times, are hated by stallions.. they are not certain whether the gelding is a form of competition or not...
We have some great stallions that were resistance-free trained from 2-3 years of age and are gentle, and act like gentlemen even when mares in heat are around ! 
Nastia. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 17380
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jan 3, 2007 - 8:10 am: | |
If the horse is not to be bred Nastia gelding makes management, particularly pasture arrangement, much simpler. Besides not wanting mares bred freely, as you state, stallions can become unpredictably aggressive toward other horses and it is not just geldings. Many people ask the opposite question that you do: why don't we neuter the mares that are not going to be bred.
DrO |
Ilona A
Member
Username: Ilona
Post Number: 329
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jan 3, 2007 - 10:13 am: | |
Nastia,
I must agree that stallions can be wonderful, we have 3, 2 TB's and one Peruvian Paso, and even vets and transporters are surprised they are stallions as they are so well mannered and gentle.
That said, it is still a management issue as we have to have them somewhat separated from the mares, as it is simply not fair to the nature of stallion's to have them in adjoining corrals. The two TB's are half brothers and have spent their lives sharing quarters so it works out OK, but my experience is that each stallion generally has to be housed independently.
When grooming, tacking etc, I am always aware to have the stallions in cross ties well away from the mares, it makes for more ease of mind and is kinder for the stallion. It seems cruel and unusual punishment to have them next to a mare in heat, no matter how sweet the stallion.
So, IMO, from a management point of view, geldings are much easier. I am seriously considering gelding the two TB's as I do not intend to breed them, and the easier and more manageable my set up the happier both myself and my horses are. |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose
Post Number: 2043
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jan 3, 2007 - 10:54 am: | |
Nastia, I have two very well behaved, gentle stallions, and I know many others. However, they are all stallions. I have them because I breed; that is the only reason. I think stallions are wonderful.I love mine. However there are a lot of problems keeping a stallion, unless you live miles and miles from everyone and all your horses run free with your mares getting bred every year.
When you go to shows or group rides, you have to stall next to a horse your stallion knows, or pay for an empty stall next to your stallion. Even a well behaved stallion will try to challange another stallion or gelding he doesn't know, or "flirt" with and try to breed a mare. At shows, you have to worry about someone letting your horse out accidently; a loose stallion would cause mayhem. You have to be careful and watch out for other riders, especially young or uneducated riders riding too close to you in a class, warm up arena, or outside the ring. I've had kids, riding double, on a mare in season, ride inches from my stallion's nose or stop right in front of me to watch a class. If you have a well behaved stallion other riders are an even bigger problem because they don't realize you're on a stallion.
At home you can't leave your horses without worrying about someone leaving a gate open. A loose stallion on a mission to breed the mare down the road is almost impossible to catch. You have liability worries; if that neighbor's mare gets bred by your stallion and the neighbor didn't want a foal or a foal by your guy, you've got a big problem. And there's the possibity of injury and property damage as your normally well behaved stallion, driven by "needs" plows through fences or a flimsey (neighbor's) stall wall.
Stalions are higher energy than mares and geldings as a rule; you have to exercise them regardless of how you feel, the weather,etc. You can't leave them in a stall for a few days while you leave town or have an inexperienced person lead them in and out or lounge them for you.
I think a better question would be why in the world would you want to have a stallion unless you were a breeder?? Too many people fall in love with the idea of a "stallion," get a colt, and then don't know how to care for/handle him. The horse is finally abused or left to "rot" in a stall because the owners become afraid of him. This has happend; I know of horses who have been found in two feet of manure in a dark stall, have not been out of handled in over a year, because the owners were afraid of it.
Unless you are experienced with stallions, and are a breeder, you have no business owning one, imo.
btw-It is a common myth that gelding a horse early will make it small, but it is untrue. Gelding will usually prevent the neck from getting cresty and thick, that is all. |
Karen Trojnar
Member
Username: Karent
Post Number: 47
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jan 3, 2007 - 11:45 am: | |
I have to agree with you Sara. I gelded my stud colt at 6 months of age. He is now 5 years old, 15.2hh, great conformation and a joy to be around. He is the only gelding we own, and he is turned out with 8 mares. He takes care of "his women" and has some stallion characteristics. He will, on occasion, mount the mares when they are in season.
Gelding him that young made it so much easier on him. He had a very fast recovery time and was active enough to get alot of exercise so there was very little swelling. |
Ilona A
Member
Username: Ilona
Post Number: 330
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jan 3, 2007 - 11:49 am: | |
Sara,
Your response was much more complete and I concur with everything you state. All of that which you said has been my experience too.
We do breed the Peruvian Paso as he is a national performance champion with good blood lines, but will not be breeding the TB stallions, even though they show well in single action shooting classes. (NOT with me in the saddle, I don't have the nerve for that kind of speed anymore). Hence my desire to have them gelded.
We did recently geld a 5yr old Peruvian. He was exremely 'studdy' being agressive, dominant and frankly a menace. He was in his own corral, would rush other mares or geldings and try to challenge any stallion when we had to walk by his abode. He was tough to handle, and quite willful. Since having him gelded 8 months ago we have a different horse. He is calm, affectionate, easy to be around, non-threatening and quite frankly a much happier horse. He is not constantly trying to assert himself or driven to donate his DNA to any recipient, receptive or not. It was a good decision, and even my husband who opposed the gelding concedes that it was the right thing to do. Stuart saw the gelding as something that was going to be done to him personally. What is it with some men? |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose
Post Number: 2045
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jan 3, 2007 - 12:51 pm: | |
Single action shooting classes? Is that where you race down a line of balloons and shoot at them? If so, I'm impressed.
I love my stallions; and I really understand the draw of a beautiful stallion, but this "thing" that so many people have with wanting a stallion is one of my "soap box" issues. It's my opinion that anyone who wants to own a stallion needs to spend time with a reputable breeder or trainer and work with stallions for awhile. They are a "whole different ball game" regardless of their personality. |
Ilona A
Member
Username: Ilona
Post Number: 332
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jan 3, 2007 - 1:47 pm: | |
Sara,
Single action shooting is barrel racing with the balloon shooting as an additive, just in-case high speed with impossibly small turns isn't enough of an adrenaline rush. As I said, I'm not in the saddle, I discovered mortality was an option after-all. I didn't know that when I was younger!
Yes, Stallions are a 'whole different ball game'. I couldn't have put it better myself. |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose
Post Number: 2047
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jan 3, 2007 - 4:24 pm: | |
Ilona, if and when that sport shows up in this part of the country I won't plan on signing up!! There are days when I get enough of an adrenaline rush just trying to stay in the saddle. |
Nastia von Ahsen
Member
Username: Nastazja
Post Number: 10
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jan 3, 2007 - 11:18 pm: | |
Well.. alright, to most, stallions can be difficult to handle.. if not dangerous... I agree with that, and if necessary, they COULD be gelded.
We usually ride our stallions or use them as trail guide head horses with customers.. and of course breed them to our mares.
I have also been recently told that stallions attach themselves to their owners more than mares do.. they seem to have loads of personality..
I don't believe in castrating animals.. perhaps just cats and dogs due to their habits of area marking...and such.. |
Nastia von Ahsen
Member
Username: Nastazja
Post Number: 13
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jan 3, 2007 - 11:29 pm: | |
One more thing...
Some of the greatest horses were stallions.. in a variety of competitions..troughout the world.
I just simply think that folks who cannot afford to handle stallions should not settle for one to ride, and instead geld them for their own safety and well being. |
Fran C
Member
Username: Canter
Post Number: 796
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 4, 2007 - 7:56 am: | |
In a world where there are millions of unwanted cats and dogs and thousands of unwanted horses - many starving and neglected and more that are destroyed via euthanasia or slaughter - it is totally irresponsible NOT to castrate/spay/neuter animals unless they are of exceptional breeding quality and there is a demand for their offspring. |
Peggy Riley
Member
Username: Peggyr1
Post Number: 13
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 4, 2007 - 10:11 am: | |
However beautiful the stallions may be I have to agree with Fran on this issue! I'll leave the stallions to you experienced breeders.
Now that my jack is gone we'll not have anymore intact males of any kind!!! |
Dawn Winans
Member
Username: Dwinans
Post Number: 78
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 4, 2007 - 12:25 pm: | |
I agree with Fran - there are just too many unwanted animals in the world to be adding to them. It is my opinion that all animals should be neutered unless they are top quality breeding/showing stock. There are just too many health and behavioral problems with intact animals. I know a guy who left his dog intact and then disciplines it when it jumps the fence and carouses the neighborhood. The dog should not get into trouble - that's what he's supposed to be doing! Also, I know that intact male dogs are prone to getting cancer, so there is the health issue as well.
This is one of my pet peeves and I feel pretty strongly about it. |
Nicole Tucker
Member
Username: Tuckern
Post Number: 146
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 4, 2007 - 2:22 pm: | |
I think stallions get that title "the greatest" because of the money involved.
No one is going to put tons of money into a gelding and allow/push him to excel at a discipline, because they cannot get anything back out of a gelding. Once's the gelding's own career is over, there's nothing left. Mares are almost the same, because they are the ones carrying the foal, their career has to stop when the owner decides to breed her, and she will no doubtedly lose condition during her year away from work.
Not believing in castrating an animal seems very irresponsible to me. With the millions upon millions of unwanted animals starving on the streets and rotting in shelters, adding to the population by NOT castrating your pet, seems almost cruel in and of itself.
That's just my opinion. And I do commend you for being able to voice yours. :0)
Nicole |
Erika L
Member
Username: Erika
Post Number: 630
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 4, 2007 - 2:31 pm: | |
Another vote for preventing more unwanted animals!
Unless you are breeding an exceptional animal with a ready market--off with the balls! |
Dennis Taylor
Member
Username: Dtranch
Post Number: 372
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 4, 2007 - 2:56 pm: | |
I was just about to agree with gelding til Erika made it sound so .. so.. devastating. But, I have to agree ... "off with them".
Just lucky I am an exceptional animal I guess.
DT |
Fran C
Member
Username: Canter
Post Number: 800
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 4, 2007 - 3:51 pm: | |
Dennis!! |
Ilona A
Member
Username: Ilona
Post Number: 333
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 4, 2007 - 3:53 pm: | |
Thats very funny Dennis, my husband feels the same way.
Along these lines, I am a dog breeder in favor of spaying/neutering. I only breed working dogs and will not sell to families, only law enforcement etc. my dogs are great, from France and are exceptional, both in terms of blood lines and ability to save lives through explosive, narcotic and search and rescue work. My house dogs and cats are all spayed/neutered.
You just have to have adopted from any animal rescue facility (which I have done many times) to see mans irresponsibility and its heartbreaking consequences. |
Angie
Member
Username: Ajudson1
Post Number: 925
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 4, 2007 - 4:26 pm: | |
Dennis, you must be my husbands twin....you both think alike, LOL!! Now, where was that shovel, man it's getting deep around here
Seriously, not spaying or neutering animals is just plain ignorant and selfish IMO. Our vets and the local shelter get together every spring and offer very reduced rates for dog and cat owners to bring their pets in to get fixed.
I've often wondered if the large animals vets could offer something like that for horses? I remember getting colts gelded for $35.00, when I was a kid. last time I had it done, like 11 years ago, I believe it was like $135.00.
I think too many people don't like to put out the money and just keep putting off what should be done. |
Erika L
Member
Username: Erika
Post Number: 633
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 4, 2007 - 7:58 pm: | |
Yes, Dennis, you are exceptional. |
Nastia von Ahsen
Member
Username: Nastazja
Post Number: 14
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 4, 2007 - 10:32 pm: | |
Hm... speaking of unwanted animals...
There are many unwanted children out there too.. Whom shall we castrate ? Men or women ? ;) |
Angie
Member
Username: Ajudson1
Post Number: 927
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Friday, Jan 5, 2007 - 10:20 am: | |
Men, for sure the men!(sorry guys) |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose
Post Number: 2058
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Jan 5, 2007 - 11:40 am: | |
Who can be responsible for bringing the most children into the world? Hmmmm......
Ah, like I was saying Dennis! |
Dennis Taylor
Member
Username: Dtranch
Post Number: 375
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, Jan 5, 2007 - 11:57 am: | |
OK .. OK .. guilty as charged. Dr O, we definitely need to run some kind of promotional deal to get more men on this forum.
Actually, I was gelded years ago, though I still often show stallion tendencies. I think that is covered in another post somewhere.
DT |
Ilona A
Member
Username: Ilona
Post Number: 335
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, Jan 5, 2007 - 12:34 pm: | |
Dennis,
Now that is what I respect, a man who walks his talk!
Any good gelding will tell you that stallion tendencies are a good thing. My geldings all show possesive/protectiveness with the mares in their corrals. You must be a good family gelding! |
Erika L
Member
Username: Erika
Post Number: 634
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, Jan 5, 2007 - 12:53 pm: | |
You're killin' me here, cowboy! |
Carolyn A Burton
Member
Username: Mcbizz
Post Number: 57
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, Jan 5, 2007 - 1:18 pm: | |
Nastia, if the endangered species (polar bears, pandas, tigers, elephants, etc. etc. etc....) could speak, I am sure they would agree with your most recent post on this subject! |
Nastia von Ahsen
Member
Username: Nastazja
Post Number: 15
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Friday, Jan 5, 2007 - 2:34 pm: | |
Too many useless humans in this world these days..
Dennis - your own will made you decapitate.. or were you beheaded on your behalf, by someone else?
 |
Cyndy
Member
Username: Hpyhaulr
Post Number: 29
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Friday, Jan 5, 2007 - 7:38 pm: | |
Re: useless humans?
My first husband started exhibiting some 'stupid stallion' behavior.
I let my lawyer do my 'gelding'.
|
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose
Post Number: 2061
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Jan 5, 2007 - 10:45 pm: | |
Cyndy!! My first husband also! Ah, well....live and learn.
Dennis, now there's a difference you know, between being gelded and being well trained and tractable!
AS to the gelding/neutering issue, I've recently acquired a small case in point: cute, small, male dog wandering along the road, no collar or tags, unkept looking; hit by car in front of me. Luckily, he survived and although he lost an eye he'll be o.k., but he shows signs of abuse and neglect, and is terrified of Lonnie and other men. I'm willing to bet he was "surplus" and un-wanted, and one or both of his parents should have been neutered. |
Cyndy
Member
Username: Hpyhaulr
Post Number: 31
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, Jan 6, 2007 - 9:51 am: | |
Depending on how many legs the "Y" chromosome owner has,determines whether gelding/neutering is the first or final solution. I am a round peg in a square hole down here, but in my book, I have ALL cats & dogs in the vet's office 8:am on the day they turn 6 months.
A) If I want more, I will allow myself to be adopted.
B) They can't get cancer in parts they don't own
C) I work real hard at passing myself off as a responsible adult. This is just part of that profile. Gotta watch out for my girls! (in NY they are done at weeks old now! No such critter down here. |
