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Discussion on Navicular ever in one leg only?
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Cathy Miller (Buddil)
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 24, 2002 - 2:53 pm: |   |
Hi Dr. O, I read your fantastic article on Navicular Syndrome and I am a little confused regarding my 8 year old TB/Trak gelding that has been diagnosed with "possible" navicular disease. He is only lame on the left front, however. Was a grade 3 lame in flexion, blocked sound with PDN. Radiographs show some minor changes in the navicular bone, nothing drastic though. Joints are clean. He has spurs in the lower joint of both of his hocks that have been flaring up and I am wondering if because of the hind lameness the front is sore? (HOPING!) Could that type of hind end lameness be a cause for changes in the navicular bone by putting so much stress on the front? In your article you wrote that navicular is almost always in both front legs, so that is what kind of has me confused. We went ahead and injected his hocks a few days ago and my vet suggested Isoxuprene for 30 days, along with padding his front foot. I guess my big question is, can they be navicular in one leg only? When the left leg was blocked he was sound on both fronts. Thanks so much in advance!
Cathy |
Jean (Reggie)
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 24, 2002 - 3:40 pm: | |
Cathy,
My gelding, he is now 22, has navicular in his right front foot since he was 7. I just had his x-rays updated at an Equine clinic and he still is clean in his left foot. The Vet was amazed he could be so bad in one and clean in the other. So it is possible.
Jean |
Cathy Miller (Buddil)
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 24, 2002 - 4:30 pm: | |
Jean, can you tell me a little about how it went for you? Did you treat him with corrective shoeing only? Have you been able to continue to ride him or did it get much worse? I am just in the beginning phase of this and I am fearing the worst. They say that it is not as bad as it used to be with the wonderful farrier work today and I am hoping for that. Thanks for responding to me!
Cathy |
Jean (Reggie)
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 24, 2002 - 8:00 pm: | |
Cathy,
I went through many many months of bute and isoxoprine. It didn’t help him. We tried every kind of shoe imaginable. We had bar shoes with the bar in all sorts of positions. Finally we ended up with a plain shoe and a wedge rim pad. Remember this is going back 15 years and they have come up with newer ways of shoeing. If he were younger I think I would try the Balance shoe.
Back to Harry, I gave him bute and rode him normally for several years. Then (after he fell with me twice) we slowed to just a walk and trot. His foot would just buckle and he would loose his balance and down we would go. Now he is retired and we go for long walks.
I do not give him any medications regularly at this time. If he is having a really bad day he gets a little bute. He is happy, he can run and kick up his heals in the pasture and gets along fine.
The Vet that did the x-rays on him a few months ago wanted to nerve him. He felt he was a great candidate. I thought with his age and without a guarantee how long it would last it wasn’t for us.
What do you do with your guy? Are you stadium jumping, eventing or pleasure riding etc.? I think that has a bearing on your decision. You need to try everything, what doesn’t work for one will work on another.
I’ll be thinking about you. Keep us informed.
Jean |
Cathy Miller (Buddil)
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 24, 2002 - 8:31 pm: | |
Thanks so much for your response to my questions. As everyone has the same feelings for their horses, we all want to do the best for them. He is my boy, like my son to me. I am just on him only one year due to a fractured hind coffin bone. Have owned him 3 years and he is very behind in training, but that is o.k. He is very willing even when he is hurting. Never does show lameness. We ride dressage and he was to be my FEI prospect, my dream horse, sane, sensible, big and beautiful. I feel that there is hope, however. My farrier trims with the same thoughts as the New Balance shoes are, just shapes his shoes as they do. He has put silicone pour in pads on him and he did go from a grade 3 to a grade 2 just with the shoes. We injected his hocks, which were grade 2 lame. I will ride him tomarrow for the first time since then and hopefully we will see a difference. My vet would like to possibly inject the navicular bursa or coffin joint if the Isoxuprene does not help. He said that he has had a very good response with the medication, though, and feels that should do the trick with the shoeing. He does not do all of the things Navicular horses tend to do like point their toes forward to releave the heel pain, and he sets the foot down pretty even, not toe first. I am hoping that the hocks made the front end heel sore and it will calm down now. Keeping my fingers and toes crossed!! Thanks again!
Cathy |
Nancy E. Hodges (Redwood)
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2002 - 1:46 am: | |
Is the lame foot smaller than the other foot? I used to have a mule with navicular, and she only showed lameness in the left foot. She was raced (always going to the left), and her left front foot was smaller than her right front. She would be fine if we did frequent (no more than six weeks) trimming and proper shoeing and if she had pads under her front shoes. Massage also helped as it improved her circulation. She had become rather lop-sided too, and the massage helped even her out.
Nancy |
Cathy Miller (Buddil)
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2002 - 6:01 am: | |
Hi Nancy, no, both feet are the same, in fact, the navicular foot is even rounder and better shaped. That is what is so confusing, he shows none of the visual symptoms except the lameness. He does love a massage, too! That is great for circulation. I also have been told that accupuncture is helpfull.
Cathy |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2002 - 7:11 am: | |
Hello Cathy,
The article may have been fantastic but it did not get across its most important point: the diagnosis of "navicular" can be pretty meaningless.
There are probably a number of chronic conditions that block with a PDN that are difficult to diagnose that clinicians lump under the term "navicular" and yes, some of these can occur unilaterally. I do not think the radiographic changes behind in any way cause your front limb problems, sorry.
DrO |
Cathy Miller (Buddil)
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2002 - 9:07 am: | |
Thanks for your response, Dr. O. My vet did say that there are many other things in that area that this could be and that is why we are trying the Isoxuprene before injecting anything in that area. He said the change in the bone is very slight and hopefully if that is the problem we have caught it early enough to be able to control it. My farrier has worked with many navicular horses and is very confident that we will find the correct shoeing to keep him comfy.
Cathy |
Elizabeth Donahue (Paul303)
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2002 - 10:13 pm: | |
Our QH mare has exhibited "navicular" syndrome for over 17 yrs. I wish they knew then the techniques and treatments they know now. She is 22 now, and is used on trail quite frequently. The most important factor in her care is frequent shoeing - usually about 5 wks. The minute she begins to grow out and the angle starts to change, she will become uncomfortable. She's also been on bute for many years. |
Cathy Miller (Buddil)
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2002 - 10:53 pm: | |
Elizabeth, do you have your mare shod in any certain fashion? Heel wedges or eggbar shoes? And is she sound most of the time? I ask these questions because this is such a new thing to me. My gelding had a fractured coffin bone and had worked on it for weeks without showing lameness, so it must be a very painful thing for him to show lameness with this. Also, did you use Isoxuprene with any luck? Some vets seem to think it is fantastic, while others do not.
Thanks for your input on this, it really helps so much to hear others stories of their beloved horses.
Cathy |
Valerie Snapp (Valjean)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2002 - 9:37 am: | |
Cathy, I have been following your postings and the responses with interest as I am in the beginning stages of dealing with a problem in the back part of my trakehners front feet. Have you noticed any increase in the pulse in the front feet since your horse has had this problem? I called my vet out to check for possible laminitis because of my mares pulse but there was no response to hoof testers in the toe/sole area, only in the heel. I'm still concerned about the pulse that still comes and goes and am giving bute and keeping her off grain and grass until I'm positive that nothing is going on with the laminae. Val |
Cathy Miller (Buddil)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2002 - 1:16 pm: | |
Hi Val, no, no increase in the pulse in the front feet. He was not positive to hoof testers either, which is why all of this is so confusing to me. He only flexed grade 3 lame and upon viewing radiographs the only thing was the slight change of the navicular bone. Have you had xrays done yet? My boy is a Trakehner/TB. He has great feet, hoofs are nice, angles are wonderful, grows nice in the heel, too. With all of the lush grass we had this spring he put on a little too much weight so I also cut his grain and he has a few small flakes of hay for the evening, from 3:00pm till 6:00 am. Many times he doesn't even finish that. I hope your lameness is easily diagnosed and something that is easily rectified. It is so very frustrating, isn't it. If only they could talk we would fix anything! Best of luck to you Val!
Cathy |
Elizabeth Donahue (Paul303)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2002 - 4:01 pm: | |
My mare is now shod in a regular shoe with maximum heel lift using degree pads. The pads raise only the heel and thin down to nothing at the toe. Her shoe is rockered with two side clips, and both toes are rolled. Her right foot is very decidedly the worst, and the one she used to favor and point. My current farrier ( only her second one in 16 years ), shoes her precisely making individual adjustments so both front feet match in angle and size.
Some of my problems over the years: Farriers that didn't show or come immediately when a shoe was lost - I cannot emphasize enough, the importance of a short, strict shoeing schedule. Add to that, the unimaginable hardship of a lost front shoe on a navicular horse with degree pads. With the two farriers I've had over the last 16 years, she's NEVER lost a shoe, and they both hot shoe. Most of the ground we lost with her was due to not having the right farriers in the beginning.
Dealing with new technologies as they arose. Of course you want to expose your horse to any new developments that could offer help. The thing to keep in mind is to stop using them if they make your horse worse - don't feel that if the research "proves" your horse will improve, and you can't see improvement, that you're the one that must be wrong. For instance, egg bars were very wrong for MY horse and I could name a dozen different techniques that we discarded along the way.
A move from a very mountainous, rocky region to a flat sandy one, called for a change in shoeing - be flexible. Her front feet were done with full pads and packed with silicon to avoid stone bruises to already sensitive feet. This left her with soft soles, and to give her feet a rest, we had to leave the full pads off during the winter ( when we didn't ride her ). After the move, and a complete work-up with the new vet and farrier, her heels are raised even more, the degree pads form a "bar" across her frogs, and with the flat sandy area she is in now, she is more comfortable than she has ever been.
We never tried Isoxsuprine, Legend, or Adequan. When they first came out, she was way far down the pike with her navicular, and we weren't riding her. She HAS been on bute for many years, and the attempts made to take her off were heartrending. We've decided that, should she ever run into gut problems from the bute, at 22 yrs old, we will put her down, rather than make her live with pain. She has been on Cosequin for many years.
The soft, flat terrain where she lives now, along with excellent shoeing ( of course ), afford her the most comfort ever. She is ridden frequently at the walk, trot and canter with care taken at all times, to make her use her back and rear end to keep her light in front and keep turns to her bad side gentle and to a minimum.
It's important to remember that navicular is most probably a "syndrome" that describes the location of pain in certain horses. The exact mechanism that is causing pain in your "navicular" horse may not be the same as in my horse. That's why some people have success with some measures and others do not. Watch your horse carefully, and see what works for him.
From now on, you have to treat navicular as your job. Keep up with it and stay on top of it. |
Cathy Miller (Buddil)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2002 - 5:41 pm: | |
Thanks so much, Elizabeth, your posting really helps. We have just started our search for the "perfect" shoe/pad and went from grade 3 to grade 2 with a pour in pad. I would like to try a heal wedge next, but we had just started on the Isoxuprene and I don't really know how long to give that to see if it is helping. He is not fall down, stumble lame at all, just a small head nod going to the right. It is confusing because I was always under the impression that the inside leg in a circle would be the lame leg but now everyone is saying it is the outside leg while in the circle. He seems to warm out of the head bob after 20 minutes or so. I have him on a very small amount of bute (1/2 gram am & pm) because I don't want it to mask what the isoxuprene might not be doing. I am trying to take one step at a time with this and so far he really is not in very much pain. I am hoping that over time with the isoxuprene it will better itself but I have a feeling this is just the beginning of a very long hard road. My farrier is fantastic, comes every 4 weeks and he has worked with many navicular horses. He is young, energetic and very up on all of the new techniques. Does not leave the extra toe many farriers will not take off and has been very careful with his heels, too. I have used him since December and the farrier prior to him refused to take off his toe and let the heels grow a little. I am afraid that his shoeing with that farrier for the 2 years may have started this. I have learned to be very careful when choosing a farrier or vet over the past few years, have had a problem in both fields. Now I have who I trust and they are willing to do whatever it takes to keep him comfy.
Best of luck with your loved one. Sounds like you finally got it as together as possible!
Cathy |
Valerie Snapp (Valjean)
| | Posted on Thursday, Jun 27, 2002 - 9:50 am: | |
Hi Cathy, I have not yet had x-rays done, my farrier came this morning and agreed that the pain in her feet is in the heel area only so he took off a lot of toe and rolled her shoes to see if that helps. Next week I'm going to take her to a clinic for some diagnostics even if she is better, the pulse still comes and goes and that is not a symtom of navicular and concerns me a lot. Good luck with your baby!! Val |
Cathy Miller (Buddil)
| | Posted on Thursday, Jun 27, 2002 - 2:11 pm: | |
Good luck to you too, Val. I hope everything works out for you. Keep us posted!
Cathy |
Heather Matthys (Equus)
| | Posted on Friday, Jun 28, 2002 - 10:16 am: | |
Cathy,
Are you sure your horse is navicular and not arthritic? Your statement that your horse warms up out of the head bob in 20 minutes or so sounds more like stiff joints than bone rotation. I was under the impression that navicular pain would get worse while arthritis would loosen up with work. Not sure.......just asking. :-) |
Cathy Miller (Buddil)
| | Posted on Friday, Jun 28, 2002 - 2:25 pm: | |
Heather, I know, it is very confusing for me. The xrays showed his joints are fine, just a change in the navicular bone. He is stiff in the jaw and choppy and head bobby when we start but after some time of work I can get him to move out and the head bobbing is almost completely gone. Comes back when we switch directions, though, but just when we are changing in a circle. He did block out sound with a PDN block, though. He really has no "classic" symptoms of navicular, toe pointing, heal landing first. But he does trip sometimes on that foot when he is being lazy. When he is moving out on soft watered footing he is great. Thanks for your concern, at this point I wish it was a little arthritis. I don't know if that would be worse, though, given many articles I have read concerning navicular "syndrome" and how many horses go on and live a good life and decent career with the farrier work of today.
Cathy |
Elizabeth Donahue (Paul303)
| | Posted on Saturday, Jun 29, 2002 - 12:27 am: | |
Cathy, My mare's way of going is identical to your description. When she was very young, and in training, she would exhibit the same symptoms. Was she lame? Wasn't she lame? Is she bobbing? Did I imagine it? Why is she so witchy? Is she in heat? When she began to quit on us, we finally got it through our thick heads and did the full work up. Yes, we lost our show prospect ( King Ranch, Wimpy, Dude )so carefully chosen, bred, and foaled, but we gained a wonderful friend ( with the show pressure relieved)and companion who is perfectly rideable, incredibly intelligent and an "all round" joy. Once we really got on top of the navicular, which was around '85 or '86, we've been lucky enough to have little further breakdown. The greatest improvement has been the move to soft, sandy "flatland". We thought, for sure, that by now ( at 22 ), she'd have been nerved. Now, I doubt that will ever be necessary. |
Cathy Miller (Buddil)
| | Posted on Saturday, Jun 29, 2002 - 6:02 am: | |
Elizabeth, many of these stories give me hope that I will be able to do many things with him still. I love to show him in the lower level dressage tests with hopes to lightly compete him up to 2nd level. I hope we have caught it early enough to do this. My vet says he has many good years left in him and to not give up at all. My main concern is his comfort and when I feel that he is not comfortable with what I am asking I stop and we try again another day. Nerving is something I do not want to think of but in the end if he will be comfortable, that would be the option I would look into. He means the world to me. I have seen him through many months of stall rest and hand walking with the fractured coffin bone he had and found the most wonderful animal in that big 1500 lb body when all I could do was brush and comfort him. I will be there for him through this, too. He is very special, as all of our horses are to us. Just keeping my fingers crossed and my head as clear as I can!
Cathy |
Elizabeth Donahue (Paul303)
| | Posted on Saturday, Jun 29, 2002 - 9:42 pm: | |
Good attitude, Cathy. Just remember that navicular syndrome is not the hopeless sentence of doom it once was. With your attention to detail, I'd be very surprised to see it get in your way too much at all. By the way, when we go on a long trail ride, I put sport medicine boots on my mare's front legs. She seems more comfortable for longer periods of time. |
Cathy Miller (Buddil)
| | Posted on Sunday, Jul 14, 2002 - 9:30 pm: | |
Hi, just a quick update on my gelding. Turns out that the navicular bone did not have changes to it, just a small spot on it, which my vet really was not very concerned with. He is sound with the Isoxsuprene and a 2 degree wedge and pads and moving better than ever. Really don't know if it was the Isoxsuprene for sure but it did help quite a bit before he did get the wedges. Showed him this weekend in a Dressage competition and placed 2nd out of 14, not bad! Sooo happy, sure hope this will last, but now that I know there is some type of problem I have a more carefull outlook on his training schedule. Thanks everyone for their input and stories, really helped get me through a rough time.
Cathy |
Jean (Reggie)
| | Posted on Monday, Jul 15, 2002 - 7:50 am: | |
Cathy
I am sooooo happy he is doing so well. Thanks for the update.
Congratulations on your 2nd.
Jean |
Sherri L. Hueser
Member
Username: Tangoh
Post Number: 317
Registered: 3-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, Feb 18, 2003 - 5:15 pm: | |
Hi Cathy,
I'm curious, how's your gelding doing now, over a year later? Still sound...I hope. |
Cathy Miller
Member
Username: Buddil
Post Number: 32
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 6, 2003 - 4:33 pm: | |
Hi Sherri, sorry this is so late! Just found this post and wanted to answer it. He is doing pretty good. Found out that my gullet plate on my saddle was broken and when I had it fixed his head bobbing totally disappeared. At that point the vet figured that he was heel sore due to over compensation on that leg to get the weight off of the shoulder where the saddle was hurting him. We did take him off of the wedges and cut his Isoxuprene from 30 a day to 10. He was very sound for about 6 weeks then started showing lameness when going to the right again. Does not want to use his hocks but they are fusing so that is the reason for that. Going to put him back to 30 pills per day to see if that will help. It is a crazy road this navicular thing! He is a wonderful horse and I am trying to figure out if it is truly the front end or the back end that is the main problem. Thanks for asking!
Cathy |
Sherri L. Hueser
Member
Username: Tangoh
Post Number: 357
Registered: 3-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 6, 2003 - 4:51 pm: | |
Hi Cathy, glad to hear he is doing pretty good, although it sounds like he still has some issues. I hope you resolve them. I know what it's like to have a good horse go lame for 'unknown' reasons. Although it was fortunate you found out about the broken gullet plate. Fortunately, in our case, our mare's lameness turned out to be a combination of a 'too short' trim right before our weather this past January hit -50 with the wind chill. It was, well, to put it mildly, 'devilishly' cold. She's been fine since that time - knock on wood -we thought she foundered and treated it like founder with stall rest and bute, then we thought she had navicular, but it turns out it was none of the above. Unfortunately when they tell you 'navicular syndrome' it's like they're telling you that your horse is lame but that they really don't know why. Hopefully your problem with your horse will be resolved. I'm sure it will. You sound determined. Keep me posted. |
Cathy Miller
Member
Username: Buddil
Post Number: 33
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 6, 2003 - 11:10 pm: | |
Thanks for asking, Sherri. This poor big guy has had his life full of one thing after the other, fractured coffin bone in hind leg, hock spurs, now both hocks fusing and this awful navicular problem. Then the gullet plate broke and he is very sore in the back. But he is a trooper, just keeps giving me his best shot. He has a home with me forever so whatever his problem of the day is we can handle it! It is a shame because he is so sweet and beautiful. Hopefully it will all just heal in time and he will go on to be a sound horse! Best of luck with your girl! Thanks again!
Cathy |
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