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Discussion on Colic? or teeth problems?
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Diane Edmonds (Scooter)
| | Posted on Thursday, Jul 25, 2002 - 12:31 am: |   |
Hi, Dr. O My 22 yr. old mare started with diarrrhea Tues. very watery. Took her temp. it was normal-low 96 deg. No appetite, mildly depressed. Had vet out Tues nite as symptoms seemed to worsen some, she is not presenting with "normal" colic symptoms. No pawing, rolling, or acting real uncomfortable. Vet examined her and found a big ball of food in her cheek, she has never quidded before. He gave her a shot of banamine and she seemed a little more relaxed. Checked her this morning still not eating. When she takes a bite of grass she will go directly to the water tank and swish her mouth in it and the lump shows up in her cheek and I take it back out. Kept an eye on her and she seemed more depressed and still having diarrhea had vet back out he tubed her and that oil came squirting out in about 3hrs. it was shooting 10 ft. Vet looked at her teeth and said she has some good points in there, but don't think it is the problem. He is a cow vet the equine vet is out of town. I watched her today for a few hours and tend to lean towards a mouth problem. She laid down today and I figured she was going to roll but she put her head on the ground and rubbed her jaws back and forth on the ground then got up, no rolling. The diarrhea has subsided. Also her eye lids swelled up, almost shut, but have gotten better since yesterday. Tonite I watered down her hay and she picked at it but every time she took a little she would blow her nose, shake her head, swish in water and end up with it in her cheek. I have a call in to the equine dentist, but have a feeling it will be months before he comes as he is over 100 mi. away and very busy. Also she had no temp all thru this if anything she is running a little low and feels cool to the touch. Any ideas? Thanks |
Diane Edmonds (Scooter)
| | Posted on Thursday, Jul 25, 2002 - 12:38 am: | |
I forgot to add I have not seen her urinate, except for on Tues she streched out like she was going to, elevated tail and just a few dribbles came out. She may have when I wasn't waching her today. I locked her up tonite to see if she does. Would the lack of urination be caused by all the fluid loss from diarrhea? She does seem to be drinking normally. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Thursday, Jul 25, 2002 - 7:56 am: | |
Yes I suspect the reason for decrease urination is fluid loss from the diarrhea and no the diarrhea is not caused by problems with the teeth.
I believe you have a colitis, probably infectious in origin, even though you do not have a temperature. I find the peripheral swelling troublesome, did the horse have her head down all day?
I would consider having another exam and complete lab work up done to be sure that:
1) She is dealing successfully with the infection or problem.
2) Rule out other possible causes of the diarrhea, depression, and inappetance.
3) Be sure her organ function, particularly the kidneys but also the liver, and serum proteins are normal.
DrO |
Diane Edmonds (Scooter)
| | Posted on Thursday, Jul 25, 2002 - 9:46 pm: | |
Hi,Dr. O. I had the equine vet out today and he drew a blood panel and should know the results tomorrow. Yes she does stand with her head low. The vet did not find that she is dehydrated and everything was in normal range except an elevated heart rate, it has been jumping a bit the last 2 days Tues. it was 54, Weds it was 48, and today it was 63. She is really getting sick of seeing vets and I wondered if that might not raise it. today she didn't seem as depressed still has watery diarrhea but it did have some green color to it today. She picks a little bit then will run right to the water tank and swish her mouth. Does this all day. I showed the vet when I let her loose she went right to the water tank and swished her mouth and pawed at the tank. She spends most of the day doing this when she is active. He didn't see anything abnormal with the teeth other than she needs a good float but didn't want to stress her doing that just yet. She will eat grain and carrots but we don't want to give her much of that due to the diarrhea and she quids that also. Will let you know the results of tests tomorrow. Thanks. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Friday, Jul 26, 2002 - 8:00 am: | |
Just having the head down low can cause some horses to swell around the eyes and head. I will worry about her till her appetite returns and the heart rate comes down, please keep us informed.
DrO |
Diane Edmonds (Scooter)
| | Posted on Friday, Jul 26, 2002 - 6:54 pm: | |
Hi, again my mare is feeling much better today, she ate a whole leaf of hay last nite and only had 1 bowel movement, and it is still very watery. According to the bedding she also urinated a normal amount since this all started. The vet called this morning and said her blood panel showed a very high wbc and thought with her symptoms it may be salomella. He said the count was to high in his opinion for potomac. I was not able to get the numbers as he was on his cell phone and very staticy. While turned out today she spent more time with the herd and didn't act so depressed. She also picked a little more at the grass, tho she is still spending alot of time at the darn water trough swishing her mouth, what would you assume the reason for this is? I took her temp this afternoon and it is finally up a little and normal 99. I didn't get her heart rate but will try tonite hopefully it is lower. The vet has her on diarrhea meds, probiotics, and electrolytes. I worry about my other 3 horses could they come down with this? So just wondering how all this sounds to you and wondering if you have any advice, also vet said rest of her blood work up was normal. Thanks |
Diane Edmonds (Scooter)
| | Posted on Saturday, Jul 27, 2002 - 8:15 am: | |
Dr. O this morning my mare had no bowel movements from overnite, approx.10 hrs. should I quit the diarrhea meds? She ate most her hay last nite but still not acting quite right. Would a shot of banamine help her now? Thanks Again |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Saturday, Jul 27, 2002 - 10:21 am: | |
Not knowing what meds those are and not being able to examine her, I cannot advise on specific treatment. Many times following severe diarrhea, once the bowel settles down, it takes a while for stools to form again because the bowel is very empty. I think it is an excellent sign that whe continues to eat but still would like to see the HR return to normal before I feel a lot better. Banamine is indicated for any possible toxico-infectious, and that includes almost all infectious diarrheas, to help prevent the complications of endotoxemia including founder.
DrO
PS Do you live in an endemic area for PHF, if so I would not rule it out from the WBC count and see if the newer more reliable tests are available and have it run.
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Diane Edmonds (Scooter)
| | Posted on Monday, Jul 29, 2002 - 12:19 am: | |
Hi, Dr.O. My mare seemed much better yesterday especially after her banamine shot. She still has diarrhea but it has some consistency to it now and don't happen as often as far as I can tell maybe 3 times a day, I am not positive of this as I let her out during the day, but can usually find her manure in the pasture. Overnite she doesn't go. She still hangs her head over the water trough and swishes alot. I have an automatic waterer and a 25 gallon tub in her stall and she will not drink out of them, I still think this is an indication of something, swallowing seems hard for her so she holds the water in her mouth and alot falls back out, then she will swish more into her mouth. I have not seen her drink like a normal horse since this started. Chewing and especially swallowing seem difficult for her. After a banamine shot things get better for awhile. Does this indicate anything to you? Her hr has been around 44 the last 2 days. She hadn't been quidding as much lately, but started back up today again, not as much as before tho. I do not live in edemic area for phf as far as I know, I never hear much of it and I am around the horse community alot. The diarrhea med she is on is like kaopectate the vet said. also since she isn't going as much her gas and stools have a very terrible smell to it, is that indicitive of anything? It has gotten very hot and humid here again and I can see it is taking a toll on her. I am at the end of my rope here and my vet recsources used up. I am going to try to get her blood report tomorrow and I will post it for you. Should I give her banamine shots daily or is that to much? She still does not appear dehydrated somehow. Also she hasn't been sweating in this hot weather, but she does stand in front of the fan alot that is in their lean-to. Please if you have any ideas I can look into I would appreciate it as I don't know if she can take much more of this. This site is wonderful and I have been recommending it to eveyone around here as our vet care is limited. Thanks again. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Monday, Jul 29, 2002 - 8:44 am: | |
It all sounds like a bacterial colitis Diane but I have seen other problems that look just like this and most of them as serious or more serious than colitis. The past winter we had a mare in the hospital that went through this for about 2 weeks until we lost her and on necropsy found she had an infarction that had killed 2 feet of large bowel so from the time it started, without surgery, there was little to do to save her and since she continued to pass profuse watery stools surgery was a difficult call. An important difference between your horse and this case is that her heart rate never went down, just always higher.
I am not sure what the water behavior represents but you do see it with very sick horses, particularly those with bowel pain or dehydration. They play with the water but don't drink adequate amounts, be sure your horse continues to consume at least 6 (8 is better) gallons a day.
Yes the banamine can be used daily for 5 days as long as the horse remains hydrated and kidney function normal.
DrO |
Diane Edmonds (Scooter)
| | Posted on Monday, Jul 29, 2002 - 10:03 pm: | |
Hi, Dr.o. I heard tonite that there is another horse that has the same symptoms and close to same blood results as mine and is down with founder. The vet said it tested neg for phf and believes we are both dealing with samonella. Her heart rate remains at 44 today. Her digital pulse is not bounding, been checking that a few times a day. Her stools are a VErY little more improved with some consistency to them more like cow pattys now.Today she had about 5 movements from 6am til 7pm. She is eating a little hay and some grass but prefers weeds. I had her out in the yard and she didn't even look at the lush grass and went right for a thistle and ate that???? Here are her blood results Hemoglobin 19.2(high) Ref. range 11-17 Hemacrit 51.6 (high) Ref. range 32-50 WBC 3.7 (low) Ref range 5.5-12.5 MCV 47 Ref Range 34-58 RBC 11 r.range 7-12 MCH 17.5 R. Range12-19 MCHC 37.2 R. Range 31-39 Platelet count 142 R Range 100-400 Platelet estimate Adequate DIFFERENTIAL ABSOLUTE Neutrophils 2886 78% REf. Range 2600-7500 Bands 0 Ref. Range 0-300 Lymphocytes 777(low) 21% Ref. Range 1500-7700 Monocytes 37 1% Ref. Range 0-1000 Eosinophils 0 Ref. Range 0-1000 Basophils 0 Ref. Range 0-290 Does this tell you anything? I gave her a shot of banamine tonite and she almost through her self on the ground shaking her head and blowing her nose and acting quite excited dragging me around. She has never done this before is this some kind of reaction? She seemed fine when I left about 1/2 an hour later. Will go check her in another hour. The other horse that is sick is no where near mine and have never met. I forgot to mention she will eat grain with gusto even get excited when she thinks I'm going to give her some. Nickering, ears pointed forward, etc. I only give her a couple handfuls a day due to the diarrhea but boy she enjoys it, could she have a little more or would that be asking for trouble? She will also eat carrots and apples, but I keep them to minimum also would they hurt anything? I just don't want to aggravate that gut anymore than it is. She still seems depressed and tired. How long does it take for salmonella to take its course, presuming I can pull her thru this at all? We are both getting very tired. The vet is going to be out of town for a week starting Thurs. is there anything I should have him do before he leaves? Thanks Again |
Diane Edmonds (Scooter)
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jul 30, 2002 - 12:16 am: | |
Sorry forgot another question that I asked before but you never answered. What about my other 3 horses are they in great danger of this? I am afraid they have already been exposed so seperating them is probaly to late to do. The vet said normally healthy horses with a good immune system shouldn't get it, but the old mare was as healthy as they get and she got it. Is there anything for them I can do to keep risk at a minimum? Sorry for all the quetions but I sure want to get this mare recovered and keep the others healthy. Thanks Again!!!! |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jul 30, 2002 - 8:13 am: | |
Diane the blood work indicates your mare is dehydrated (PCV above 50) so supplemental fluids, either 2 gallons tubed in 3 or 4 times daily or continuous IV's, would be the best treatment and she may need treatment past the time the vet leaves tomorrow. I cannot know if it is absolutely neccessary but you will be amazed how much better whe will feel when she is properly hydrated and it makes complications like founder less likely. Until corrected the banamine is a little more risky to use. The low WBC count does not have a left shift suggesting that the horse may be dealing with the infection itself but should be monitored to be sure it recovers and does not continue to go down.
I too would be slow to increase the concentrate at this point as rapidly soluble carbohydrate may increase endotoxins.
Without knowing the cause I really cannot know the time frame or the chance that others are at risk, but all efforts should be make to prevent contact and a week or two to get back to near normal is not uncommon.
DrO |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jul 31, 2002 - 6:44 am: | |
Robyn D Woodard (Ravenbou) on Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 09:56 pm: Edit
Has anyone tested for Tetanus? A neighboring farm to us had an older mare that exhibited many of the symptoms as described above, though not all, and was ultimately diagnosed with a form of Tetanus. The mare recovered very well and has been a picture of health since the episode. It took quite a while for the diagnosis though... Just an aside. I am only an owner. I have no medical background. |
Diane Edmonds (Scooter)
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jul 30, 2002 - 11:01 pm: | |
Hi, Dr O. My mare is much more alert and actually drank like a normal horse today, instead of swishing she sucked it down, what a relief. Her appetite remains off but she is eating some hay and a little grain I give her. She would eat a gallon of grain if I would give it to her. The grass still does not seem to interest her. The vet and I decided not to hydrate her today and monitor her water intake for now which was way up today, she has also stopped quidding. The diarrhea still remains but fluctuates between watery and a little firmer, (cow patty like). She only had 3 BM's today and only urinated once I think it is a little harder to monitor her urination as she has a little pasture she can go in. One of her BM's seemed to start watery and ended up much firmer at the end, is this a sign of the bowels trying to work right? Does her cbc point to salmonella to you? The vet said another horse at the same barn as the other horse came down with the same symptoms last night, they are not doing as well as my mare and are down. I'd like to attribute that to your GREAT help and my relentless care, however I do not believe she is out of the woods yet she is still getting the diarrhea meds and probiotics. I have cut back a little on the anti-diarrhea meds as running out there every 4 hrs. was wearing me out + I have a job. Is ther anything else you can suggest I can do for her. I lock her in with a fan during the day as the heat is relentless and humidity worse. THAKS AGAIN!!!!!
Robyn, thanks for the thought but she is up on her tetnus shots. She had them in April. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jul 31, 2002 - 6:54 am: | |
I think it all sounds a little better. Short of making sure that water consumption is adequate I don't have any suggestions from here.
While the CBC confirms an inflammatory episode it does not confirm a specific organism or even if this is a primary infection or infection secondary to some other event as described above in my July 29th post.
DrO |
Diane Edmonds (Scooter)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jul 31, 2002 - 11:57 pm: | |
The saga continues. This morning I went out to check my mare and her diarrhea had gotten worse. Went to see the vet and he came out and hydrated her, gave her a shot of B12, banamine, and something else thru the iv. After a few hours things calmed down and her diarrhea subsided and she actually ate hay like she was starved. Tonite everything still seemed ok. He also gave me some diarrhea medicine with paraquoy(sp) in it. Through all this her HR continues to be around 40-44. Temp was 99. Another horse #3 at the boarding barn got same syptoms last nite. Vet said the younger horses seem to be dealing with it much better than the older horse. I guess I really don't have any questions but feel better writing about it and serves as a good diary. Vet leaves tomorrow I hope all theses horses don't crash while he is gone. Thanks for listening. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 1, 2002 - 6:55 am: | |
Diane,
More important than the loose stools Diane is the horses attitude, appetite, and vital signs. I see the heart rate but how was the attitude and appetite. How much fluid did the vet give? I don't recognize the medication....oh...Paregoric? This is usually a very effective antidiarrheal and you will find more information on this drug at Equine Diseases: Colic and GI Diseases: Diarrhea in Horses: Diarrhea an Overview.
DrO |
Elizabeth Donahue (Paul303)
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 1, 2002 - 12:33 pm: | |
Thank you for your updates. This thread is exactly the type that makes this site so valuable. No one likes to break into an intense thread, but following something like this is a learning experience for us all. I don't think you realize how many people are pulling for you and your mare. |
Diane Edmonds (Scooter)
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 1, 2002 - 11:07 pm: | |
Hi, Dr. O. The mares attitude is near normal, actually almost spunky for her, She does have peaks and valleys tho. This has just happened in the last few days. The vet gave around 3 gals. I believe, To the tune of about $200 so once is all I can afford. It did seem to help. Today the diarrhea is still very watery, but not a continous flow anyway. Her appetite is returning, however, I think their is still a mouth problem going on. Do you think with this illness it is best to wait awhile for a float. She nickers for her hay and about kills me for a handful of grain. Her water consuption is up, but not as much as I would like about 5 gals a day, mind you she is a 13.3h.h. pony. If the diarrhea would go away I would say she was her normal old self. The appetite thing does bother me a little, it appears she has the appetite but is painful to eat, she eats very slowly and a few pieces at a time, after a shot of banamine she eats like she is ravenous and can't get enough. She shoves it in instead of picking. Thanks again Dr.O. for your help.
Elizabeth, Thank you so much for your moral support it really means alot. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Friday, Aug 2, 2002 - 6:32 am: | |
As the banamine may slow the healing of any damage done to the bowel, try and reduce the dosage to a minimum. Again, the loose stool is not near as important as attitude, appetite, and vital signs. 5 gals a day for a medium pony is not bad.
DrO |
Diane Edmonds (Scooter)
| | Posted on Friday, Aug 2, 2002 - 11:50 pm: | |
Hi, Dr.O. I figured it would happen last nite the horse at the boarding barn died, He was the one that came down with it the same time my mare did. The vet was gone and no help to be had, I feel so bad for them and makes me worry more about my mare. 2 more horses at the boarding barn came down with it last night so that is a total of 5 there. There is also another barn on the other side of town that has 3 cases, I haven't heard how they are doing except one was shipped to a hospital and they diagnosed salmonella. It's getting scary. None of theses horses including mine have anything in common feed wise. My mare is still feelig good about herself and eating and drinking great. The diarrhea continues, but it isn't the steady flow it had been. She had 3bm's the last 12 hrs. Why do you say I shouldn't worry about this if everything else is alright? It does concern me even tho she seems to feel her old self. She has not had banamine since Weds. so I know that isn't responsible for her appetite and attitude. She remains on the kaeopectate stuff, without the paregoric, she only got that for 24 hrs. The horses at boarding barn #1 have been foundering also, is checking for a bounding pulse all I can do to hopefully keep this at bay? Thanks again |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Saturday, Aug 3, 2002 - 7:45 am: | |
Concerning the loose stools there is very little prognostic significance is the severity of the diarrhea or the length that it goes on, the biggest concern is that the horse replace these fluids lost.
Man it sounds like someone needs to get in to your area and figure this out. If this is all salmonella there should be a common denominator. In a similar case about a decade ago it was traced back to a commercial feed that all the farms used. Are people traipsing back and forth from the infected barns?
Aggressive fluid therapy would probably save some of these horses and the frequent founder still keeps PHF in the back of my mind: is anyone testing for it? If present, it would make a inexpensive treatment available for the sick.
DrO |
Diane Edmonds (Scooter)
| | Posted on Saturday, Aug 3, 2002 - 10:39 am: | |
Hi, Dr.O. Yes they have been testing for everything at boarding barn #1 so far, I know the fecals are neg. haven't heard on the phf. I wouldn't doubt that there has been cross contamination from barn to barn they are not very careful in my opinion. I work at boarding barn #3 and before I go to work I take a bath, change my clothes and shoes and still refuse to touch the foals or go in their stalls until this is under control. I have kept them informed of this and they are not letting barn#1 or#2 bring in any horses or theirs allowed to go there. So far they are ok. The equine vets office was on the phone to the large animal hospital nearest us yesterday trying to get some help, I don't know how the conversation turned out as she was on hold. I am trying to find out if their are any other pasture horses like mine getting sick, but I haven't heard. I have been warning as many horse people I know to be careful and keep an eye on their horses. Boarding barn #2 is having a show today and did not cancel it. Our barn told people if they go they should not bring their horses back, so they all cancelled. On the brighter side my mare continuse to be her old self. Vitals are good the only thing is she don't seem real interested in grass but is eating her hat with gusto. Her water consumption is at least 5 gals. a day. Today her BM's had much more consistency and a more normal color. They are far from normal tho. I will not feel good about her until the Bm,s are normal. The horses at both the boarding barns are vaccinated for everything, including phf. In my readings on this wonderful site and other places it seems that don't matter much. My mare was not vaccinated for it. Again I have to thank you for this wonderful site I would not have been able to make such informed decisions, which quite possibly saved my mares life. (so far anyway). Thanks and I will try to keep you informed. |
Diane Edmonds (Scooter)
| | Posted on Saturday, Aug 3, 2002 - 10:39 pm: | |
Horse#2 at boarding barn #1 died Fri. From complications of founder and diarrhea they put him down. My arab gelding is prsenting signs of founder mildly bounding pulse, some heat in hoofs. He is not off his feed or taking the founder stance but very gimpy in front, hopefully it is an abcess as he has been having problems with them this year. I thru my back out Thurs. and couldn't even pick his feet out.(so frustrating) I wasn't able to get his vitals as it was getting dark and I don't have any light out there. Gave him 2 grams bute. His BM's and attitude were good tho, and he moved fairly well on soft ground soooo anyway holding my breath on this until tomorrow. The mare seemed great tonite. Cow vet said he has had many cases of diarrhea in pasture horses lately, some worse than my mare, some better. So it isn't confined to the boarding barns & my horse.
That paregoric sounds like nasty stuff, I don't think I would give that for more than 24hrs. Horse #1 that died was on it for 5 days and he dried up before he died and didn't have a bm after he dried up. I guess I see why you say the diarrhea isn't the most important thing and let nature take it's course as long as vitals, attitude, and appetite are good. |
Diane Edmonds (Scooter)
| | Posted on Sunday, Aug 4, 2002 - 1:21 pm: | |
Hi, my gelding was fine this morning and the mare even better her BM's are near normal and everything else is going good for her. I think after reading for hours we are having a small epidemic of phf. We had major flooding and rains early this summer and a very mild winter. The bugs are horrendous and so is the heat and humidity. My horses and boarding barn #1 are close to the Mississippi backwaters. Dr.O would it be safe to let her with my other horses a few hours a day? They were with her at the beginning-middle of this illness. Hopefully everything is going to go well now and you won't have to listen to me go on and on. I will try to keep you updated on the rest of the horses especially if they finally get a firm diagnosis. Thanks again!!!!!!!!!! |
Diane Edmonds (Scooter)
| | Posted on Tuesday, Aug 6, 2002 - 9:50 am: | |
Hi, Dr. O. My mare is as normal as she gets now, her bm's aren't quite solid, but almost. The only question I have is she still does not seem real interested in grass, she eats alot of hay. when I put her out on pasture she walks around with her nose on the ground and maybe will pick a little. When I turned her out today she went cantering thru the fields, kicking her heels up, but no interest in the grass, so I put her back in her pen and she ate the hay like she was starved,so I don't think it is lack of appetite. Any Ideas? Thanks
Boarding barn #1 continues to have horse come down with whatever this is. I think they are up to 6 and they are very sick. Still no diagnosis tho as far as I know. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Aug 7, 2002 - 12:04 am: | |
It does not sound serious, maybe she is just feeling good to be out.
DrO |
Suzanne Moore (Suzym)
| | Posted on Saturday, Aug 10, 2002 - 11:55 am: | |
I just HAVE to say that the horses in the boarding barn are presenting EXACTLY like a friend of mines mare who had PHF. Even at Purdue, they thought at first it was Salmonella. They did save her, but she foundered very badly in all four feet.
We have been told to vaccinate for PHF at LEAST twice a year, and even more frequently if there is an outbreak.
Suzy |
Diane Edmonds (Scooter)
| | Posted on Saturday, Aug 10, 2002 - 11:33 pm: | |
Hi, Suzanne I think it is phf now too. Boarding barn#1 had 1 more come down with it, a 2 mo. old colt. He pulled out of it fine. It seems it has ran it's course over there and the rest of them are recovering. I still think there are some sporadic cases going on out in pasture horses from what I hear. I have been spraying my horses down with fly spray right before dusk hopefully that will keep them skeeters at bay. My mare is fully recovered with normal Bm,s now. Dr. O. does phf come and go like that? A bunch of horses get it then poof it leaves? Seems kinda odd. |
Diane Edmonds (Scooter)
| | Posted on Sunday, Aug 11, 2002 - 12:24 am: | |
Dr.O. In re-reading your phf article, before my mare got sick we had an invasion of mayflies for about 3 days. They had to salt down the bridges because they were so slick from them. We had another invasion of them about 2 weeks ago. Do I understand your article correctly that horses can get phf from them? If so how? There were some dead ones floating in their water trough that I cleaned out that day. I guess that would explain my question above that it comes and then poof is gone??? They were also dead in their pasture. Very interesting if that was the case, the prevention is easy enough, Turn off all lights near them as that is where they swarm. The person that lives out where my horses are has a yard light that they swarm to. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Sunday, Aug 11, 2002 - 11:33 am: | |
Thats the problem Suzanne, the clinical signs are not diagnostic it requires testing to seperate these infectious diarrheas out.
Yes Mayflies carry the organism and when they die incidental ingestion by the horses expose them to the PHF organism, the article contains the details of this. I think you are building a great circumstantial case for PHF but why has noone sent off a blood sample to UCal for testing? Concerning the nature of an outbreak it depends on the type and number of insects carrying the organism and the immune status of the individuals.
DrO |
Diane Edmonds (Scooter)
| | Posted on Tuesday, Aug 13, 2002 - 10:52 pm: | |
Hi Dr.O. my horses are over due for their worming as I have put it off due to the mares diarrhea would it be safe to worm her now or should I wait a little longer to make sure her gut flora is back to normal? I had a farrier up today who is about 60 mi. south of here on the Mississippi, his wife is an equine vet. I asked him if they were having any diarrhea problems down there and he said yes, and that his wife said it was phf, they did the blood test that isn't so reliable and it came back positive I think he said. Boarding barn #1 is still having sporadic cases. Thanks |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Aug 14, 2002 - 7:37 am: | |
Why not deworm everyone else and just wait on this horse an extra week or two?
DrO |
Diane Edmonds (Scooter)
| | Posted on Sunday, Aug 18, 2002 - 5:19 pm: | |
Hi Dr. O. I talked to the vet yesterday and they are still having many cases of whatever this is at boarding barn #1 and I heard today that they have been quarentined. I asked the vet why he doesn't get the more reliable test done and he said the vet hospital told him no one in the country does it.
I told him about UCal, but as you know I am a layman and he took it with a grain of salt. I even printed out the article for him. All these horses are in the same pasture next to the river. Is it to late to have my mare tested, since she is recovered? I would have it done if it isn't just so I know what she had. Thanks again |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Monday, Aug 19, 2002 - 8:18 am: | |
It may be Diane, the PCR test looks for bits of the organism in the blood, and I do not know how long they persist at a level that could be detected. This also does not seem to be a question addressed in any of the research available. Let me see if I can get this question answered along with the availability of the test at UCal.
DrO |
Suzanne Moore (Suzym)
| | Posted on Saturday, Aug 24, 2002 - 11:01 pm: | |
I'm sure we would ALL be interested in the answers to those questions, DrO!
Suzy |
Diane Edmonds
Member
Username: Scooter
Post Number: 123
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Monday, Aug 4, 2003 - 11:41 pm: | |
Here I go again Dr. O. I posted this under my post from last year because this mare has started this again today. Odd it's almost exacly a year to date. She has started with the diarrhea again, depressed and not eating. The equine vet is out of town again for the week. Called another vet. Her temp was 100, resp 50, heart rate 38. She will not eat or drink. The vet said her stomach was very active. He gave her 10cc banamine and getomicin. I do not want this to get out of control like last year. What can I do early to get this under control? Maybe I am panicing but the horse and I can't go through this again. If she is still ill tomorrow the vet said he should come out again, is gentomiocin a good idea? What blood tests should I have done? Is there any certain weed or tree that causes these symptoms that come to mind? I did read the poisonous plant section but am not sure. He did say he is treating another horse about 15 mi. away with the same symptoms. My horses have not been off the property for mos. I will go out there bright and early in the morning and hope all is better, however when I left she was more relaxed with the banamine but still no interest in food. The only difference this year is she seemed much more aggitated and colicy before the banamine, Please any suggestions I can give vet (he is the cow vet) and any treatment I can begin? Thanks I'll report in the morning hopefully she'll be over it. |
Diane Edmonds
Member
Username: Scooter
Post Number: 124
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Monday, Aug 4, 2003 - 11:47 pm: | |
forgot to add the vet said something about oiling her tomorrow if she isn't better is that a good idea? Thanks again |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 8885
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, Aug 5, 2003 - 5:29 pm: | |
Hello Diane,
The yearly cycle certainly suggests a possible poisonous plant. There are dozens of possiblities and you will find a list of common ones in the Diarrhea Overview article. But it is far more sensible to go out and identify the plants in your pastures and then see if any have a reputation of causing troubles than it is to identify all the plants that might be responsible for problems. If your veterinarian is not interested or knowlegable your local extension service will help you. If you bring me a list I will be glad to review it.
The blood tests and treatment that should be performed are directed by the physical exam results and formulated ruled out list, I would consider the minimum a CBD and blood chemistry panel with electorlytes. I do not see the indication for gentocin in the information you posted but like the blood tests this must be directed by the results of the vet doing the physical exam, same for the oil. Perhaps reviewing the articles on diarrhea and those on colitis will refresh your memory on the particular diseases.
DrO |
Diane Edmonds
Member
Username: Scooter
Post Number: 125
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Aug 6, 2003 - 5:56 pm: | |
Hi Dr.O. I penned that mare out of the pasture she was in and she is much better, not quite 100% but I'll take it. I went in search of poisonous things in that pasture and I THINK I may have found the culprit. Black Locust Tree all the leaves were stripped and the ground underneath it had been vacumed to dirt. Problem is from pictures I have encoutered I am not sure if it is a Black Locust or Honey Locust? I don't know if you are familiar with them, but this one had thousands of long seed pods in it which of course she was eating also. Is that a Black locust? I will continue my internet search to see if I can find more info on them. If it is a Black Locust I would be very inclined to think it was the culprit as the rest of the pasture is very clean of weeds. Thanks |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 8899
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 7, 2003 - 8:52 am: | |
This may be Diane. Though diarrhea is listed as a possible symptom in the reference below, it is an inconsistant sign in the horse with the nervous symptoms more common and I can find a case report where constipation (impaction) occured. But the other symptoms fit pretty well. Don't stop looking until you have identified all the plants in your pasture, but certainly the black locusts trees should be removed.
From a discussion from the past:
As far as I can tell the honey locust (Gleditzia sp) is safe though the black locust (Robinia sp) is a known problem. Though this should be double checked I have always thought the big difference between the two is the very long twisting seed pods of the honey locust versus the shorter seed pods of the black locust: 2 to 4 inches long, flat, and dark in color.
I have since verified that this is true but you should note that the below reference makes a statement that honey locust may not be safe. I can find no reference to support or refute this though I know farmers who have fed their cattle livestock the pods of honey locust. From one of the links we list in the poisonous plant pages:
BLACK LOCUST Robinia pseudoacacia
TOXICITY RATING:
High to moderate. Horses are particularly at risk, but all animals ingesting the plant may be poisoned.
DANGEROUS PARTS OF PLANT:
Leaves, especially wilted leaves, young shoots, pods, seeds, inner bark.
SYMPTOMS:
Depression, poor appetite, weakness, paralysis, abdominal pain, diarrhea (which may be bloody) and abnormalities in the heart rate and/or rhythm. Death is possible.
PLANT DESCRIPTION:
These moderate-sized trees with rough bark often bear two short spines at the base of each leafstalk (easiest to see on young leaves). Leaves are alternate and pinnately compound with oval, entire leaflets. The fragrant flowers are creamy white, sweet-pea-like, and arranged in long drooping clusters. The fruit is a flat brown pod which contains kidney-shaped beans. Black locusts are common in well-drained woods, thickets, and waste areas, especially in the southeastern part of the state. They are often planted along highways and fencerows as ornamentals and for erosion control.
SIGNS:
This discussion will center on the effects in horses, the species most likely to be poisoned by black locust. Horses may ingest the bark or leaves when hungry and no other forage is available, or if they are confined or bored in the vicinity of the tree.
There are several toxic components in black locust including the toxic protein robin, the glycoside robitin, and the alkaloid robinine. The toxins affect the gastrointestinal tract as well as the nervous system. Clinical signs can manifest as soon as one hour after consumption and can include depression, poor appetite, generalized weakness to paralysis, abdominal pain, diarrhea (which may be bloody) and abnormalities in the heart rate and/or rhythm. With sufficient amounts ingested, death may occur within a few days, although black locust is not always lethal. Some animals recover despite showing clinical signs, an indication of the dose-dependent nature of the toxin.
Honey locust (Gleditsia triacanthos, pea family) has been implicated in causing similar toxic signs, but the information on this is not clear. Prickly ash (Zanthoxylum americanum, citrus family) superficially resembles black locust in vegetative aspect and has been blamed for loss of sheep.
FIRST AID:
If horses are observed eating black locust, contact a veterinarian immediately, since emergency measures to rid the gastrointestinal tract of toxin may be implemented. Beyond this, therapy is aimed at preventing further exposure and keeping other animals away from the trees, and treating clinical signs symptomatically. Recovery may take days to weeks. Be extra cautious around affected horses to prevent human injury, and these horses should not be ridden until all clinical signs have resolved.
PREVENTION:
Do not confine horses in an area where black locust grows. If this is unavoidable, provide enough palatable feed so that the horses leave the trees alone. Some horses are wood and bark chewers, however, and for these horses is may be necessary to fence off the trees or utilize a different pasture to prevent toxicosis. Paints and sprays to prevent wood chewing may be tried, but long-term success with these treatments may be difficult.
DrO
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