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Diane Edmonds
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 695
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jan 31, 2007 - 8:40 am: |   |
Hi Dr.O. when I went out to feed this morning Flash was standing in her usual spot to greet which is the corner of the paddock. Gave her a pat and went around the corner to the lean to. I heard her slip or fall not sure which. Before I could get back out there she was coming in limping and switching her weight. She couldn't eat her grain at first and I had to basically hold her up so she wouldn't fall again. Her legs seemed to be in spasms, so I rubbed them, which did seem to help.
Soon as I was convinced she was steady I got some banamine (paste) and gave her some. By the time I went to the house and came back with the banamine she seemed much better and was eating her grain.
She walked out to eat her hay and seemed to have a slight limp, and after a few steps she seemed normal (for her). I am hoping she just stunned something. Is there anything I should be on the look out for? Would it make sense to give her bute in case there is inflamation anywhere? She did get the banamine. Thanks |
Diane Edmonds
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 696
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jan 31, 2007 - 9:22 am: | |
With further investigation in the daylight, I have found she has a huge ice ball in her hoof, causing her foot to roll when she walks, I'm fairly certain this is causing leg spasms. I"m sure she didn't fall after I looked at her hoof prints.
Of course she can't lift her leg so I can't get the ice ball out, I'm hoping the banamine will give her enough relief soon, so I can.
In the mean time I have her in a small area with hay so she don't move much. There is some swelling in that fetlock (more than usual). This is so discouraging as this winter she has been doing SOO Very well. Any advice would be welcome. Thanks |
Judi Gordon
Member
Username: jgordo03
Post Number: 150
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jan 31, 2007 - 9:31 am: | |
Diane,
Sorry to hear about Flash. I have the same ice issues at my house. I have got the ice chopped up and cleared in my corral and my horses have been up for over three weeks now. They have never been confined this long before. My pasture is like a glacier of ice. Is there any way you can keep Flash up somehow? If she indeed slipped or fell I think that stall rest would be the best thing until you can see if there is going to be any soreness or injury. Good luck let's pray for a early spring!
Judi |
Little King Ranch
Member
Username: eoeo
Post Number: 300
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jan 31, 2007 - 9:48 am: | |
Basket Weave, our older stallion, took off in the snow a year ago this winter when he was 24 years old and his back legs went out from under him. He immediately went into spasms on his right hind leg. He had hyperextended both hind legs. I gave him bute but he kept holding that leg up. I contacted a lady who has an accuscope machine. She came out the next day and we treated him for 3 days in a row. He had stifle issues, the muscles over his back and butt were involved and his hock swelled up. We ended up treating him about once a week over a month's time. The initial relief with the first 3 treatments were remarkable. We were of course worried that he might have problems breeding last spring since the hind end was involved and he had turned 25 years old. He breezed through breeding season like a champ. No issues at all. He looks 12 instead of 26 this year and appears he will breed some mares again. EO |
Diane Edmonds
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 697
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jan 31, 2007 - 9:52 am: | |
Thanks Judy I'm fairly certain she didn't fall, I think it is the HUGE ice ball in her hoof causing the problems. We don't have much ice, just snow and -50 windchills. I do keep her up when it's slick out. Where she was standing the is a very small patch of ice. I can't wait for spring! |
Holly Wood
Member
Username: hwood
Post Number: 1775
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jan 31, 2007 - 10:01 am: | |
Did you get the ice ball out, Diane? I know it is bitter cold for you, but I wonder if you take a gallon jug of VERY warm water outside and pour it on her heel and foot . . . and then towel it dry??? Pour it somewhere where the puddle it makes won't be a problem (turning to ice.)
Spread lots of sand or hay/straw around the area where the mare spends most of her time. At least the straw/hay won't ball up in her feet as much as just the plain snow will do. I know that oil or petroleum jelly on the sole of the foot can help keep the snow balls out. Maybe you can just quickly stick some in there under her foot if she is resting on her toe . . . or maybe the hot water will melt a hole in the snow under her foot, and you can get it under there without her having to lift her foot much.
Poor old girl. Northern winters are tough on the elderly. She needs a condo in Florida. |
Diane Edmonds
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 698
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jan 31, 2007 - 10:58 am: | |
I got the ice ball out I did take hot water out, didn't quite do the trick. While it was still softish I walked her on the pavement and the rest came out. The banamine is working on her now so I will have to wait and see if she is lame, she seems fine right now. I'm thinking the ice ball either made her slip and/or sent her leg into the painful spasms.
This weather is something, we went from 49 degrees 3 days ago, and now have this artic blast. When it was warm the snow started melting, then it froze into this hard packed stuff that is like ice in some places. |
cindy O'DELL
Member
Username: zarr
Post Number: 271
Registered: 6-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jan 31, 2007 - 11:35 am: | |
Diane, rather than hot water how about one of those packs you can heat up in micro. then wrap it in foil til you get to Flash and put it under her hoof ?? We have been frozen solid several times this winter and Ellie collects snow/ice balls like they were beany babies! Cindy |
Diane Edmonds
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 699
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jan 31, 2007 - 11:52 am: | |
Good idea Cindy, but this is the mare that can't pick up her legs and stay in one place, so I don't think I could get something like that to work for her.
She doesn't normally have ice ball problems, especially in the rear hooves. I think it all boils down to not being able to trim her rear hooves, causing long hoof walls that are prone to ice balls.
Hopefully SOMEHOW I can get them trimmed next farrier visit. |
cindy O'DELL
Member
Username: zarr
Post Number: 274
Registered: 6-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jan 31, 2007 - 2:08 pm: | |
If you put it down right next to the hoof or get her to walk on to the spot that has been warmed or I've evened used heating pad to warm spot and then had horse walk onto spot not pad ?? As you can tell I think way out side of the box but to my husbands amazement some of it actually works. He calls it reverse polish ? Cindy |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 17666
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jan 31, 2007 - 5:45 pm: | |
Diane, I think a gram of bute twice a day is reasonable but if there is remarkable lameness you should have a veterinarian examine the horse. Snowballs are a commonly addressed problem in Horseadvice and there have been many good suggestions over the years, a search will turn them up.
LKR, addressing the issue of the Acuscope machine. It is a transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation (TENS) device, and despite the remarkable claims made on the Thorp Internet site, there is a real paucity of information on this device and consider many of their claims...hmmm...unlikely. Back in the 80's there was a small amount of research that strongly suggest it induced an increased threshold to pain but there seems to have been a real lack on interest since then.
DrO |
Diane Edmonds
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 700
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jan 31, 2007 - 7:12 pm: | |
Thanks Dr.o she still seemed fine tonight so I didn't give her any bute, I figure that way I can tell if she is lame tomorrow.
The farrier is coming the 9th and I am hoping we can get her back hooves trimmed, she hasn't had them done the last 2 farrier visits because she can't hold her legs up. I am sure that is why she has the snow balls, as her hooves are very overgrown. If you have any suggestions how to accomplish this I'm all ears. Bute or banamine isn't helping and I do not want to tranq her if possible. Thanks |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose
Post Number: 2211
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jan 31, 2007 - 11:27 pm: | |
I feel for you Diane, and for your poor old mare. This weather is hard. We had down to 20 below at night with highs in the low teens, then warmed up to 40, now is back to zero. I'm terrified to turn anyone out even in their pens. You just about need crampons to walk to the barn.
I've been trying to think of a way to get your mare's feet trimmed. I think the best idea I heard was to walk her into a trailer and have her dangle a foot off the back, or to get her to stand on raised boards. Could you make a little bridge like you use in a trail class? Maybe she could walk up it and you could hold a foot off the edge. Like the off the edge of the trailer idea, only not as high off the ground.
I hope she's o.k. All the ideas about keeping snow from balling in the hoof only work for a while when it's really cold. When we lived in Truckee I tried everything I had heard of; the only thing that finally worked was shoes with pads that pop out in the middle when the horses walks. I kept them on one horse who had borium on her shoes so I could ride in the winter. I just kept a hoof pick in my pocket for the rest of them...which doesn't help your mare. |
Diane Edmonds
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 701
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Feb 1, 2007 - 8:25 am: | |
Thanks Sara, she was back to "normal" today so she must have been having muscle spasms yesterday morning. Poor thing I'd never seen muscle spasms that bad.
I am 99% sure hanging a leg won't work for the farrier. I think my plan is to give her bute starting 3 days before the farrier comes and 1 day after plus some kind of linament the day of. Bute doesn't agree with her well, but hopefully for that amount of time it will be o.k.
This is the first winter in quite sometime I haven't had to bute her for pain...so in reality she is doing very well. Thanks |
Aileen
Member
Username: sunny66
Post Number: 1611
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Feb 1, 2007 - 3:41 pm: | |
I'm sorry to hear about your girl Diane... I agree with your plan on buting...
Ask your vet what the top amount of bute she can get. With Brave...who could only hold his front feet up for about 20 seconds, he said 1.5 grams of bute. So with the farrier coming on Saturday, I started with one gram of bute am and pm on Thursday, then Friday night, 1.5 grams, Saturday morning 1.5 grams. It worked for Brave, I hope it works for your sweet girl.
You could also give her a dose of 1/4 dose of ulcerguard if you're concerned about her tummy. Brave needed two doses. |
Diane Edmonds
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 702
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Feb 1, 2007 - 4:25 pm: | |
Thanks Aileen, I think my bute plan will be alot like yours. How is Brave doing? |
Aileen
Member
Username: sunny66
Post Number: 1613
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Feb 1, 2007 - 5:00 pm: | |
Diane, he's actually doing well! No bute and he'll let me hold up a front foot as long as I like He even did a normal turn on the haunches this morning coming in for breakfast. Before he wouldn't cross his front legs. He was crossing them this morning! |
Diane Edmonds
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 703
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Feb 1, 2007 - 6:09 pm: | |
Aileen that is GREAT news! Hope he continues to improve. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 17678
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Friday, Feb 2, 2007 - 6:03 am: | |
I saw your original post on this and the suggestions were coming in fast and furious and pretty much covered the gamut of possibilities. You are pretty much down to having the horse retrained at this point if you cannot coax the foot off the ground using NSAID's to relieve the pain for trimming.
DrO |
Diane Edmonds
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 704
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Feb 2, 2007 - 6:50 am: | |
Thanks Dr.O. what do you mean by retraining? I can get her foot off the ground, but she can't stand that way. She starts falling over after drawing it up to her belly. She really does try.
My vet suggested "pulsating" the bute. He said a very high dose the 1st day to try and knock down the inflamation then taper down til the farrier comes. The night before farrier another high dose, then taper down again. Does that make sense to you? The farrier is coming next Fri. So I plan on starting Weds. morning. |
Beverly
Member
Username: jockyrdg
Post Number: 39
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Friday, Feb 2, 2007 - 7:07 am: | |
Diane; I'm not totally sure of why your girl is unstable so this may not be an appropriate suggestion. You indicate through your posts that it is related to pain and inflamtion - hence the bute. If that is the case and she is not neurological, have you tried a topical "freeze" in addition to the bute. There is an Rx Surpass, which seems to have some respectful success. If you just need to get her through the pain of a trimming. Trouble is, you need to know where the pain is coming from as the topical only works on that area. |
Diane Edmonds
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 705
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Feb 2, 2007 - 7:33 am: | |
Beverly, I have considered surpass, but as you say it needs to be applied to the painful area.
She has many "old age" things going on she has arthritis, and it would seem shivers and or espm, and her fetlocks are dropping a little. I have used a topical with capasican in it before and it did SEEM to help. I applied it from hip to fetlock. That is also in my plan for the farrier. My vet thinks it is the arthritis that is causing her to not stand for the farrier, because she seems better in the warmer mos. He thinks the worst of it is in her hip/stifle area, but her whole leg seems involved due to the other problems. I did have him examine her after the last farrier visit to see if he had any ideas, but after seeing her the only thing he could suggest was tranqing her to lay her down. I just won't do that, for now anyway. On a day to day basis she is doing well, much better than most winters, except the farrier thing. Hoping the "pulsating" bute will do it. Thanks |
Beverly
Member
Username: jockyrdg
Post Number: 40
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Friday, Feb 2, 2007 - 8:53 am: | |
Diane; thanks for the added info. An icey winter is a terrible thing for these grand-matriarchs. I suspect she never lays down, or rarely, in which case I think you are very forward thinking to include the pain of trying to get up if she is tranquilized. Too bad we can't come up with an emory board treadmill! Hmm, brain-storming- I wonder if there is ever a way that they could use a dremel and file away the long horn while the hoof sits on the ground. Oh, egads, that should bring darts - remember the key word "brain-storming" folks. Good luck with her Diane. |
Diane Edmonds
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 706
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Feb 2, 2007 - 9:02 am: | |
Beverly the VERY GOOD folks here have helped me "brainstorm" and came up with some very good ideas.
Here's the thread, if you're interested.
http://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/3/141348.html |
LL
Member
Username: frances
Post Number: 377
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, Feb 2, 2007 - 11:49 am: | |
Hi Diane: I can't think of any different/better advice than you've already received here, but I do agree that a high level of bute is likely to be the best bet. Have you given up on the idea of walking her up some sort of gradient or ramp and allowing the foot to hang down behind? That sounds good in theory, although perhaps harder in practice. And you'd need a pretty athletic farrier - or a really high ramp!
Good luck next week anyway. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 17684
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Saturday, Feb 3, 2007 - 6:50 am: | |
Diane, I mean she needs to learn to stand on one leg again long enough to get trimmed. I would use the bute and find the technique that works the best for you and your horse that makes lifting the leg as easy as possible. And then if you still have troubles consider some behavioral conditioning that will shape a behavior that teaches the horse to stand. Horses have learned to put up with short term mildly aversive stimuli when trained properly. For more see Training & Conditioning Horses » Behavior and Training » Modifying a Horses Behavior: Conditioned Responses. After that you will have to buy a sling to trim her. Horses with feet long like this are just waiting to have an abscess and if it develops then you will have to lift the feet, better is to prevent this.
DrO |
