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Lynn Bystrom
New Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 1
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Monday, Feb 19, 2007 - 12:08 pm: |   |
Hi:
I'm actually uncertain where to even post this question, so hope this section is appropriate. My 7 year old mare, who's currently 10 months in foal, developed submandibular lymph node swelling 17 days ago. The swelling increased, up until 3 days ago, when they did regress slightly. At that point, though, I noticed third spacing along her neck, and into the front of her chest. When rubbing on her chest, it felt 'jelly-like'. Since the onset of symptoms 17 days ago, she's not run a fever, has not been off her feed, is alert, no cough, no nasal discharge, and active foal movement is seen. Her lungs are clear; heart tones are normal. She's not tachycardic nor tachypneic. She's drinking well, however, her urine output has decreased. Today, the edema has also started in her front legs at the forearm. Her hind quarters show no edema. The vet drew a CBC and metabolic profile, as well as took aspirates for cytology from submandibular lymphs, as well as pre-scapular lymph nodes. In the meantime, asked me to start PCN, and some Banamine. The mare is out 24/7, except to come in for grain, once a day. Is on alfalfa hay, as is all our others. Barn history over the last couple months has been negative for any bacterial infections. We did have 2 horses with a dry, hacking cough which lasted 2 weeks, a couple months ago, but when I drew labs on them, they were all normal, so I just let it run its course. These horses had no nasal discharge, no lymph edema, no fever, and did not go off their feed either. Anyone with ideas while I'm waiting on labs??? Thanks for any input. Lynn |
Lynn Bystrom
New Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 2
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Monday, Feb 19, 2007 - 2:00 pm: | |
Just an update to the previous post: My vet just called after looking a slides under the microscope. What she identified in the submandibular lymph nodes was mostly lymphocytes, and very few WBC's. In the pre-scapular slide, she saw what appears to be actinobacillus. No strep that she saw. A culture is being set up; blood work is pending. From my limited knowledge about actinobacillus, isn't that something that enters from a wound?? 'Lulu' has had no injuries....no open wounds. Thanks for any information.
Lynn |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 17819
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Monday, Feb 19, 2007 - 7:16 pm: | |
Welcome back Lynn,
Right now I think waiting for the laboratory work to get back before making other assessments is logical. Actinobaccillus is a large genus of organisms that are gram negative some say short rods others elongate cocci with no characteristics that I am aware of that would allow it to be Id'd on microscopic exam alone. Is this a culture result? It is a common contaminate but has been implicated in some infections, some species are more aggressive than others.
One note is that though historically sensitive to penicillin in recent years it has become commonly resistant to penicillin (100% in some areas) and potentiated sulfas. If this is the problem a aminoglycoside should be started (see the antibiotic section for more on this).
However the lack of neutrophils and no fever don't suggest a bacterial infection, then again I don't see any better treatable suggestions.
DrO |
Lynn Bystrom
New Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 3
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 - 3:27 am: | |
Thanks, Dr. O. I need to pay more attention to when my subscription comes due! GREAT site, and so informative!
'Lulu' remains the same tonight. When our vet was out today, she aspirated from 3 different inflammed nodes. The preliminary findings via cytology slides, were the 'clusters of actinobacillus' found on the one slide. (the one taken from the pre-scapular node) She did set up cultures, and those are pending. Should have labs back by later this morning. Thanks for your help! Lynn |
Lynn Bystrom
New Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 4
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 - 4:50 pm: | |
Dr. O:
Just got the lab report from my vet...CBC with differential, liver enzymes, Protein/Albumin, and kidney functions were all normal. The pathologist report from the cytology (culture will be completed tomorrow) gave two possible diagnoses. First being benign reactive lymph nodes. Second being malignant lymphoma.
Lulu is more edematous today....I'm fearful of her developing laminitis, as this fluid would have to go somewhere. Her front legs resemble tree trunks, and the inflammation has progressed to just below the knees. My vet did give me the option of trying an injection of short acting steroids, however, with that injection, we also run the risk of laminitis, she said. Your thoughts?
Thanks,
Lynn |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 17823
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 - 7:04 pm: | |
Hmmmm for more on steroids including a discussion on its relation to laminitis see, Treatments and Medications for Horses » Anti-inflammatories (NSAID's, Steroids, Arthritis Rx) » Overview of the Steroidal Anti-inflammatory Drugs
As to the possibility of lymphoma see, Diseases of Horses » Cardiovascular, Blood, and Immune System » Lymphoma and Lymphosarcoma.
Based on the pathologist report and the other information you have provided I would be wondering how much dexamethasone do I have on the truck to give to this horse. If the possibility of infection is still being bantered I would also be sure the pen/gen combination was on board at the same time. Could we have the whole report from the lab?
DrO |
Lynn Bystrom
New Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 5
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 - 8:18 pm: | |
Absolutely, Dr. O! I'll go get a copy of the lab results from the vet tomorrow morning, and post them to you. She was also quite receptive to your opinions, so I did share them with her. The pathologist will have the culture results ready tomorrow afternoon as well. I did give Lulu the shot of Dexamethasone tonight. My vet said she'd give me the drug, but also told me of the potential risks to Lulu and her unborn foal. At this point, I felt the benefit would outweigh the risks. My concern rests with Lulu right now. Her due date isn't until March 20th (340 day calendar), and I'm wondering if something from the foal could be causing this, or is the pregnancy stressing her immune system to heavily to be causing these symptoms? Thanks for your opinions.
Lynn |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 17828
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 - 9:34 pm: | |
Treat the mare first, without her there is no pregnancy. Steroid induced abortion, a common problem in other species, is tough to induce in horses (I think there is more on this in the article on steroid use above).
Abortion may occur but if the swelling is as you say, and increasing at this rate, the most likely complication, secondary bacterial infection of the swollen tissues is a very real possibility. Here you are in the odd position of preventing infection by treating the most likely cause of the swelling with a anti-inflammatory, that also will suppress the immune system that fights infection, to prevent the conditions that might lead to that infection. But the pathology report suggest that is exactly where you are.
The question remains: what is the nature of the swelling? It strikes me that inflammation of the submandibular lymph nodes alone is unlikely to cause this remarkable of a swelling problem. Possible are occlusion of major venous or lymphatic returns. Do the jugulars look patent? Do they distend when occluded distally in the neck? A really sharp person on the ultrasound might be able to help diagnostically.
DrO |
Lynn Bystrom
Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 6
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 - 10:48 pm: | |
Dr. O:
Just came inside after giving the nightly dose of PCN to Lulu. Snapped a couple shots of her legs...granted, she's a halter type QH mare, but this looks a bit extreme for a forearm. I checked her jugular's while up there, and they do distend when occluded distally. Not near as well as our other horses, but they do distend.
Submandibular lymph node swelling was our first symptom observed with Lulu. Since the initial observation, I'm now able to visualize other lymphs (that the vet pointed out to me), under her winter haircoat.
Thanks so much for your time and advice.
Lynn
 |
Lynn Bystrom
Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 7
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 - 3:53 pm: | |
Bloodwork results:
ANP2
Glucose: 96 mg/dL (52-121)
AST(GOT): 212 U/L (156-597)
SDH: 22.3 U/L (0.0-60.0)
Total Bili: 2.1 mg/dL (0.4-3.3)
Cholesterol: 96 mg/dL (59-125)
Total Protein: 6.4 g/dL (5.2-8.2)
Albumin: 3.2 g/dL (2.8-3.8)
Urea N: 23 mg/dL (9-27)
Creatinine: 1.3 mg/dL (0.4-1.9)
Phosphorous: 3.9 mg/dL (1.7-5.8)
Calcium: 11.5 mg/dL (10.2-13.4)
Sodium: 136 mmol/L (130-144)
Potassium: 3.7 mmol/L (2.9-5.6)
Cloride: 98 mmol/L (92-107)
Bicarb: 27 mmol/L (21-33)
CK: 133 U/L (96-620)
Gamma-GT: 12 U/L (5-51)
Anion Gap: 15 mmol/L (7-15)
Hemogram:
RBC: 7.62 (5.63-12.09)
HGB: 12.4 (9.8-17.1)
HCT: 35.8 (27.0-47.5)
MCV: 46.9 (33.5-55.8)
Mean Corpuscular Hgb: 16.3 (12.2-19.3)
Mean Corpuscular Hgb Conc: 34.7 (32.4-37.4)
Red Cell Distribution Width: 24.6 (20.6-29.0)
Platelet Count: clumped - estimate from smear is 100,000-175, 000 ((95-385)
WBC: 9.6 (4.1-14.3)
Seg. Neutrophil Absolute #: 5.09 (1.7-10.40)
Banded Neutrophil Absolute #: 0.10 (0.00-0.10)
Lymphocyte Absolute #: 3.36 (0.60-6.70)
Act Lymphocyte Absolute #: 0.00 (0.00-0.00)
Monocyte Absolute #: .96 (0.00-0.90)
Eosinophil Absolute #: 0.00 (0.00-0.50)
Basophil Absolute #: 0.10 (0.00-0.20)
Other Absolute #: 0.00 (0.00-0.00)
Blast Absolute#: 0.00 (0.00-0.00)
Promyelocyte Absolute #: 0.00 (0.00-0.00)
Myelocyte Absolute #: 0.00 (0.00-0.00)
Metamyelocyte Absolute #: 0.00 (0.00-0.00)
Differential:
Segmented Neutrophils 53%
Banded Neutrophils 1%
Lymphocytes 35%
Monocytes 10%
Basophils 1%
Still awaiting a phone call about the culture results.
Lynn |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 17833
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 - 6:16 pm: | |
Not much help there Lynn, has there been any response to the dex?
DrO |
Lynn Bystrom
Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 8
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 - 6:45 pm: | |
Hi Dr. O:
Yes, I believe I have noticed a little change for the better. For about the last week, Lulu's submandibular nodes have been enlarged and rock hard.....today, they're more "gushy"....still very inflammed. Also, since starting the PCN (I give injections in the neck muscle), I noticed today that I was actually able to pinch and twist the hide prior to giving the injection. Before, I had a heckuva time because she was so edematous.
When my husband came home from work this afternoon, he commented that Lulu's seems to be getting her "nice neck" back......slowly, but for him to notice something like that without me saying anything, I look at that as positive.
The edema in her legs remains, yet isn't as rock hard as last evening.
Still no fever, is eating well. I've not looked for fetal movement today....what happens on that end, happens.
As of yet, I've not heard from the vet in regard to culture results. Will let you know as soon as I hear, but today does seem to show a turn in the right direction. Whether the PCN kicked in....whether it's the Dexamethasone...whether it's the combination....I wish I knew.
Lynn |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 17840
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 - 6:29 am: | |
There still remains little evidence for infection and considering the timing I am betting on the dex right now but then we get back to what is the cause. Until it is found, or the symptoms resolve, antibiotics are logical. If the culture comes back negative, how about a biopsy of one of the effected lymph nodes?
DrO |
Lynn Bystrom
Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 9
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 - 7:03 am: | |
Good morning:
Looks like my vet and you are on the same wavelength....she too, had said if things come back inconclusive, that a biopsy of one of the nodes would be the next step.
I also have a copy of the cytology report, for all its worth:
Microscopic:
Prescapular lymph node (one smear): The smear consists of scant blood with many smudged cells. The majority of intact nucleated cells are small lymphocytes followed by small to medium-sized blast cells, scattered large lymphocytes, rare plasma cells and monocytes/macrophages. Neutrophils appear to be in proportion to erythrocytes. There are occasional fragments of hair and debris. There are a few small bodies resembling bacteria which are interpreted to be chromatin fragments based on staining character. Definitive bacteria are not identified.
Submandibular lymph node (three smears): The smears are very similar to the prescapular lymph node smear. Definitive bacteria are not seen.
Diagnosis:
Prescapular and submandibular lymph nodes: The differential diagnosis includes benign reactive nodes and nodes not completely replaced by malignant lymphoma.
Comment:
Benign reactive nodes are favorable due to the mixture of intact nucleated cells. Definitive bacteria are not seen. Culture results are pending. If lymph node enlargement continues, and no cause for lymph node enlargement is discovered on culture, reaspiration and/or biopsy and histopathology should be considered for further evaluation. |
jojo
Member
Username: jojo15
Post Number: 939
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 - 9:08 am: | |
wow... I am going thru the exact same thing with one of my goats.. same descriptions and blood came back pretty normal. lymph node swellings and of course the fear of caseous lymphadenitis. The culture did not pick it up which thankfully is ruling it out. from what i'm learning is that all the mycoplasma type bacterias are extremely hard to identify in culture. and at this point they've stopped trying. Now just doing a sensitivity on the culture to find out what will kill it. but once the abscesses are formed that it creates some kind of protective covering, making any antibiotic hard to penetrate. Does this same thought hold true for horses? and curious what PCN is? and why is Dexamethasone helping to reduce the lymph nodes? or just the edema surrounding them? I'm ready to try anything. when thinking about doing a biopsy, since the lymph nodes in question are so close to the jugular how dangerous is that? or would you biobsy another one?
Also i read that it isn't necessary for the actino bactillus you mentioned above have to come from open wounds. it could come from contaminated feedstuffs. water...
Hope your horse is ok... its very frustrating all these unknowns, but following this thread since its so much like my problem... |
Lynn
Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 10
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 - 3:47 pm: | |
Hi:
Still waiting on culture results. I just called the vets office, and they said nothing has come back yet. Excuse my disgust here, but what's wrong with treating the symptoms??? You were right about the Dexamethasone....Lulu is back to big time edema and rock hard lymph nodes again today...I assume the Dex has worn off.
PCN (Penicillin) is doing nothing.
Since it's obvious we're dealing with an acute inflammatory process (to which the cause is unknown yet), and NSAID's and PCN have done nothing, why not continue with what has helped??? That being steroids. I'm getting frustrated now....probably lack of sleep. There...done venting. :-)
Jojo: I'm so sorry to hear about your goat! I hope you too, are able to find out the cause of this. Is your goat on any meds for this?
Lynn |
Lynn
Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 11
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 - 5:12 pm: | |
Dr. O: "No Growth as of yet", on the culture. My vet apparently is off today, so my day waiting by the phone has been wasted. I did speak with another vet, and he called the lab for me, and is also prescribing another dose of Dexamethasone. (I kinda flew off the handle....he'll probably end up meeting me at the door with a case of the stuff).
Could the foal be causing something like this?? I guess I'm just trying to think back on any possibilities. When blood doesn't 'mix' in human pregnancies, there can be problems....can that happen with horses, to cause a severe inflammatory response???
Thanks!
Lynn |
jojo
Member
Username: jojo15
Post Number: 940
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 - 6:04 pm: | |
Lynn, goats are a tad different since they are ruminants. But i did 5 days of penn nothing happened. 4 days after culture of oxytetracycline (la200) nothing. did another round of 4 days. again, nothing happened. lymphs are now like yours hard, really hard. and at the jugular. and now across the body where lymphs glands are. and now that you mention it edema in the knees and soft tissue areas of the lymphs near the hips./leg area. Can't treat for what you think. even if something was working because we need to identify at least if its gram positive vs negative. penn kills everything good and bad.And like you waiting, waiting and waiting... 2 weeks for the lab to come back with we don't know what it is. another week to send to cornell, and now i'm waiting since monday for the sensitivity on the culture. though they did establish its a gram positive bacteria. good thing, is i'm learning more etc... bad thing is that its not fair to the animal to let it keep getting worse. the part about the sheaths around these lymph swellings grow and harden and make any antibiotic hard to penetrate. So the longer we wait, the harder it will be to treat.
my vet too mentioned biopsy. too invasive and costly for me. and if its a lymphoma, than it will present itself in due time. I just want to know WHAT it is, (will consider after the antibiotic treatment- which at this point is going to be 2 weeks i'm sure) i have other goats, horses, pigs etc that can all transfer certain bacterial problems,etc...
steroid use, is that putting it directly into the abscess? for goats they used a iodine injection. directly into the abscesses, which will bring on good results but this is assuming the goat has CL. Which the vet has ruled out.
Well good luck in finding out soon...i'm crossing my fingers on getting some info tomorrow. HOpe you do too! |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 17846
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 - 6:17 pm: | |
Lynn, I had no idea you would be just giving a single dose, can you tell me what the dosage plan (amount, type of dexamethasone, and frequency) are? I have doses based on the type of salt used in the article on Dex and I never use the published dosages given on the bottles but the research doses that follow.
I cannot think of a relationship of the pregnancy and swelling beginning with the lymph nodes of the head. We have a few human obstetricians as members but I don't know if they follow the boards. I am sitting with the pathologists thoughts as her assessment is the one best based on what is going on.
DrO |
Lynn
Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 12
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 - 7:15 pm: | |
Dr. O:
I'm more calm now.
Yes, I was given ONE DOSE of Dexamethasone (2mg/ml), and gave the 15ml that was given to me, on Tuesday evening. That was all the information that was written on the syringe. No vial was given to me to repeat the dosage, and truly, I felt like I had to turn over my first born in order to get another dose of it tonight! Same dose....same writing on the syringe....15 ml amount.
I'm reminded when I teach 'wanna be' CCU/ICU nurses, that a comment that comes out frequently is 'if you hear hoofbeats, think horses, NOT zebras'. I truly preach 'look at the patient...look for the obvious'. Today, I really tried to do that with Lulu. I might just as well hang the bottle of PCN around her neck, and have her carry it around with her, as to inject her with it. It's showed no response, and we're also not seeing anything on labs/cytology/culture to indicate an infection. Since starting the PCN, things have progressively worsened with the edema (until the dose of Dex came into play, but then it reoccurred)
What I am seeing is a severe inflammatory response.....not responsive to NSAID's, with no fever, nasal discharge, or inappetance. Also Lulu's continued with a decreased urine output. None of the other horses are affected. The only thing I can put my finger on is her being heavy in foal, and possibly the foal causing some type of 'conflict' within Lulu. Grasping at straws, I know. Also, her swelling is only in the front part of her body....possibly a small amount along the abdomen wall, but none in her hind quarters. (At least yet)
I guess today, I wondered why we weren't more aggressive with treating the symptoms, instead of trying to treat something that isn't there??? (or doesn't appear to be there)
Lynn |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 17850
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Friday, Feb 23, 2007 - 7:01 am: | |
A very clear reiteration of what is going on but I would add one thing more thought just for completeness: just because it did not respond to pen does not strongly rule out infection: many organisms are resistant.
But that said, what does strongly rule it out is despite a determined attempt to find it, the lack of local and systemic signs indicating infection. Has any of the areas that are swollen ever been painful?
So what is the future plan for treatment?
DrO |
Lynn
Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 13
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Friday, Feb 23, 2007 - 9:44 am: | |
Dr. O:
When the vet was out the other day, she was able to get Lulu to elicit a bit of discomfort when palpating the prescapular lymph nodes. She was pleased with that, as she said lymphomas typically are not uncomfortable for the animal.
As for a future plan for treatment?....I'm waiting on a call back from another vet for a second opinion, and hopefully a farm call from him today. Should laminitis set in before we find out what's going on, euthanasia would probably be the next step.
Lynn |
Lynn
Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 14
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Friday, Feb 23, 2007 - 10:39 am: | |
"The Plan"
After speaking with another vet, he suggested treating with dexamethasone daily, and also covering with antibiotics. Since Lulu is not showing any response with PCN, he recommended going to TMP-SMZ for now, and just see how things progress over the next few days. Granted, we're masking symptoms by using Dexamethasone, but it's also been the only drug that has improved (however slight) the edema.
I just now got off the phone with Kendra (original vet). Told her I spoke with Bruce (second opinion vet), and she was receptive to his recommendations of daily Dex along with TMP-SMZ. Also, a biopsy of a lymph node was discussed, which I'm all for. Kendra did say she posted Lulu's case on an equine veterinary board site that she belongs to, and did a get a few replies. 2 of which pointed to lymphoma. One pointed to a viral lymphadenopathy.
Lynn |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 17854
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Saturday, Feb 24, 2007 - 7:16 am: | |
What is the dosage of dex being used Lynn?
DrO |
Lynn
Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 15
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, Feb 24, 2007 - 8:23 am: | |
Good Morning:
When I picked up the Dex at the clinic yesterday (Kendra's), she had 4 syringes in a bag.....decreasing dosages. 20 mg for last night.....10 mg for tonight and tomorrow....then 5 mg. What does it take to get a bottle of Dex???? Eh, gads.
Also started her on SMZ, 10 tabs, twice a day. It was necessary to pick up the SMZ at yet another vet, as the original clinic was in short supply. John...he's also a vet we utilize occasionally..... an 'ol' time cow vet'. I brought Lulu's test results when I went in to pick up the SMZ. He didn't even look at the results, but asked me to explain what was going on. His reply: 'Lymphosarcoma'. When I told him we were planning to get a biopsy, he said, 'You could do that, if you wanted to, but why? Either the SMZ and Dex will work, or it won't. You'll have your answer.' At that point he did look at labs. It only confirmed his thoughts, but said if I had a burning desire to know exactly what the cause is prior to euthanizing, by all means, get a biopsy. John doesn't mix words.
I asked about any possibility that pregnancy had something to do with this. He said, 'Absolutely! Lulu's 10 months in foal...late pregnancy is a huge stress, and cancer LOVES a stressed body.' I must've had a dazed looked about me. His thoughts were daily Dex (he didn't specify a dosage), and see if she can carry her foal to term. Decide a point when she can be weaned off the steroids, and go from there. He felt it won't be long after steroids are discontinued, that she'll need to be euthanized, as the prognosis for lymphosarcoma is grave, and a very rapidly growing cancer with no cure.
Lynn |
Lynn
Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 16
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, Feb 24, 2007 - 8:30 am: | |
Addendum:
I forgot to mention that John felt the dramatic edema we're seeing is from a growing tumor somewhere in her chest, pressing on a large vein, and impeding venous return to her heart. |
jojo
Member
Username: jojo15
Post Number: 944
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, Feb 24, 2007 - 8:52 am: | |
so sad.. so sorry for you lynn. my vet said the same, treat and see. if no result than its a cancer, and that is that... i do hope you can go to term. if it is a cancer, what chances does the foal have of getting it in the future. |
Lilo
Member
Username: lilo
Post Number: 369
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, Feb 24, 2007 - 6:15 pm: | |
So sorry to hear about your horse's troubles, Lynn. We lost my daughter's trusty quarter horse gelding to lymphosarcoma - unfortunately not diagnosed right away. He had major surgery to remove the growth, but it only bought him about 1 year, during which he was fairly comfortable.
I am hoping that the medications will work for you. I just read in Equus that they are coming up with an improved way to administer Cysplatin (sp?), however, I do not know that it is effective for lymphosarcoma. They were talking about surface tumors, sarcoids or melanomas.
All the best,
Lilo
All the best, |
Lynn
Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 17
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, Feb 24, 2007 - 9:41 pm: | |
Thanks Jojo...I don't think there's a hereditary factor, according to Dr. O's article. Guess we'll just take it day by day, much like your goat.
Thanks Lilo....very sorry to hear about your gelding. :-( |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 17861
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Sunday, Feb 25, 2007 - 8:40 am: | |
Lynn, I like John's direct manner but find his preconceived diagnosis / treatment plan problematic.
No one can disagree with his and I paraphrase a bit "either the horse will get better or it will not" comment. But disagree with his implication that there are no other strategies and therapies that might make a difference: what if the tumor is a well encapsulated abscess causes by an infection resistant to TMP/SMZ (which does not penetrate abscess walls well anyway).
Venous occlusion of a major vessel is certainly one logical explanation (see article associated with this discussion for an explanation of this process). I would have guessed remarkably distended jugulars would have been a prominent finding however and this has not been described.
While his comment about pregnancy being stressful is certainly true, so is stalling, high concentrate diets, trailering and riding. That said I don't not know any work that suggests that pregnancy increases the rate of tumors (neoplastic or inflammatory) in the head or thorax of the horse.
He is right, the question as to what to do next Lynn really depends more on your goals and resources Lynn. But I disagree that it might not make a difference to the outcome of the case. Statistics say you might make a difference in 10 to 20 percent of the cases. If your goals are to do what every you can do for the mare which includes a definitive diagnosis to see if there is a better treatment that can improve your prognosis. You should consider referral to a hospital that can pursue this diagnosis and that would include imaging of the thorax.
If on the other hand your goal is to treat this as aggressively as you can from the information you have now, Dex to effect, and antibiotics are logical. With the idea of a tumor in the chest (are the jugulars distended?) being a possible abscess I would consider something that is effective against walled off abscesses. See the articles on Bastard Strangles and Rhodococcus for suggestions you can check them in the medication section for what may be known about their use during pregnancy.
DrO |
Lynn
Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 18
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, Feb 25, 2007 - 11:01 am: | |
Thanks Dr. O!
I so appreciate your site and your professional opinions!
Kendra did offer referral to the University, or one of the bigger equine hospitals in the area for further diagnosis and treatment, the other day. I declined. "But, what if......." I feel like a 'bad mom' for not really digging in to all the possible causes. Financially, it's not feasible. It's not that this mare, nor any of my animals, are not important, because they very much are, and it breaks my heart to see them ill. It's difficult to know when to say, "no more", with a clear conscience.
In the past (and I do understand each case is different), we've gone the route of specialists/hospitals, only to put our animals under extreme stress and discomfort, and not improving their quality of life. I guess, at this point, quality of life, and trying to keep stress at a minimum (for animal AND human!) is my goal. Treat the symptoms, as best we can, given our resources here.
Lulu still remains the main concern.....her foal is secondary. She doesn't show any JVD, remains on her feed, yet does appear more depressed, the last couple of days. Her vitals remain WNL. Edema in her legs has gone down some, but the right leg remains more edematous than the left.
Will review more of your articles....they're so informative!! THANKS!, and will keep you posted.
Lynn |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 17867
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Sunday, Feb 25, 2007 - 1:52 pm: | |
Lynn, I agree completely with your idea that you do not sacrifice the house to pursue every possible avenue and will continue to watch this case carefully.
DrO |
Lynn
Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 19
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Monday, Feb 26, 2007 - 3:57 am: | |
Thank you for everything, Dr. O. Will keep you posted as to what we find out, and Lulu's progress.
Lynn |
Wanda Martinez
Member
Username: sonoita
Post Number: 161
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, Feb 26, 2007 - 9:27 am: | |
Lynn,
My prayers are with you and Lulu and the baby. How old is Lulu?
Happy Trails |
Lynn
Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 20
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Monday, Feb 26, 2007 - 10:01 am: | |
Thank you for your kindness, Wanda. Lulu is 7 years old. |
Wanda Martinez
Member
Username: sonoita
Post Number: 180
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, Mar 1, 2007 - 7:26 pm: | |
Lynn,
anything new on Lulu?
Thinking of you and her.
Happy Trails |
Lynn
Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 21
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, Mar 1, 2007 - 8:01 pm: | |
Hi Wanda:
Thanks for the thoughts. We've been keeping Lulu on daily Dex now, for the past week. Her nodes still remain huge, but the swelling of her legs has dissipated. Today, however, she began to wax heavily. We're just waiting. She continues to eat well, and is alert. Of course, we're experiencing the biggest snowstorm in the past 15 years here, as is much of the upper midwest, so we're keeping our fingers crossed, that all goes okay. She's in her stall now, and we're able to monitor her from the house. Her due date, isn't until March 20th (340 days from last breeding). If there's any further developments, I'll sure post them. Thanks again for your concern.
Lynn |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 17913
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2007 - 7:35 am: | |
Hello Lynn,
If you don't mind I have a few more questions. How many days old is the unborn foal? Interestingly the dex does help prevent some prematurity problems as one of the signals to the foal to get ready for birth is a rise in endogenous corticosteroids. Does Lulu seem to feel better?
DrO |
Lynn
Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 22
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2007 - 9:57 am: | |
Good Morning, Dr. O!
Lulu is on day 322 of her pregnancy, calculated by her last breeding date/early ultrasound. Remains waxed yet today. She continues on her feed/water, vitals remain WNL, and continues to be afebrile. As for her feeling better? I think she's about the same as far as her demeanor. She's appropriately active for this stage of her pregnancy, but won't be running any endurance races in the next few days!
We've continued on dex at 10mg/day, IM. It's taken the swelling down in her legs nicely, but her nodes remain very large and hard in the submandibular area and also in her neck/chest. Kendra commented that it's okay to go up to 20mg of Dex/day if needed. She's also being covered with TMP-SMZ twice a day.
In humans, we use Betamethasone (I think) for moms in premature labor, to help with the development of fetal lung maturity. OB is certainly not a specialty of mine, but does Dex provide some similar effects in the unborn foal?
Will keep you posted. Thank you!
Lynn |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 17920
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Saturday, Mar 3, 2007 - 7:08 am: | |
Yes both of these are primarily glucocorticoids in action but they differ in potency and length of action. For more on this see, Treatments and Medications for Horses » Anti-inflammatories (NSAID's, Steroids, Arthritis Rx) » Overview of the Steroidal Anti-inflammatory Drugs.
DrO |
Lynn
Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 25
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, Mar 6, 2007 - 6:35 pm: | |
Dr. O:
Just a bit of an update on Lulu. This morning, she delivered her colt. 'Dexter' appears to be doing okay, and is nursing well.
I've increased her Dex to 20mg IM/daily, but the swelling in the nodes of her chest and submandibular area continue to be quite large, and hard. She continues to eat well, but appears to be more depressed. The vet did say I could increase her to 30mg/day, and try that for 5 days, then, decrease to 20mg/day for 5 days, then down to 10mg, to try and find a therapeutic dose. Now that 'Dexter' is out, what are your thoughts? How much is too much??? How little is too little? How is this affecting him? It appears that Dex isn't recommended in pregnant mares, yet we did that, so I'm wondering if you've had any experiences you could share about Dex and the nursing foal.
Thanks much,
Lynn
 |
Ann
Member
Username: dres
Post Number: 1206
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, Mar 6, 2007 - 9:02 pm: | |
ahhhh .. I love him and his name.. perfect
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots. |
Kristin
Member
Username: freshman
Post Number: 42
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, Mar 6, 2007 - 9:26 pm: | |
What a cute colt! I'm so glad that he has arrived safely and is doing well. And what a perfect name...I'm glad that you have kept your sense of humor during this terribly stressful time.
I'm sorry to hear that Lulu seems more depressed. How is she doing as mom?
Congrats on your new boy, and I will be thinking of you and Lulu. |
Lynn
Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 26
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, Mar 6, 2007 - 10:00 pm: | |
Thank you Ann and Kristin. We're very blessed. My husband was the one who named Dexter....I'll pass along your 'thumbs up' to him on that! Lulu's a great mom; this is her 3rd foal. As for the sense of humor? We sure try! Life's too short to be stressed out. So many others have problems much worse than I.
Lynn |
Holly Wood
Member
Username: hwood
Post Number: 1854
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, Mar 6, 2007 - 10:16 pm: | |
He's absolutely precious, Lynn. Just beautiful. Hope you are able to discover the cause of Lulu's symptoms so she can be more comfortable and be a good mom to Dexter. |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose
Post Number: 2381
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Mar 7, 2007 - 12:01 am: | |
Lynn, I've just been reading through your post. What a darling colt!! Just seeing his picture makes you want to hug him! He's a doll.
I'm so sorry to read of his mom's problems. I'll be following your posts. Hang in there. I do know how difficult it is. You must decide what is best for all concerned, but don't give up on your mare too soon. You'll know what is right for both of you. Prayers for you both. |
Lynn
Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 27
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, Mar 7, 2007 - 12:13 am: | |
Thank you Holly and Sara, for your comments, and well wishes. 'Horse people' are such a special group.
Thanks!
Lynn |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 17953
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, Mar 7, 2007 - 6:51 am: | |
There is almost no information on this subject in the literature Lynn. Being a fat soluble drug the dex is probably actively secreted in the milk so the foal may be receiving large doses of glucocorticoids, with all the effects as outlined in the article on steroids. I am concerned about the development of good immunity and normal adrenal function.
I know this is one big pain in the rear but I would strongly consider limiting access of the foal to the mare's milk and providing milk replacer, until she is off the steroids. If you can find a way to prevent the foal from nursing this would not require separation. There have been several ways to so this. One is a diaper on the mare and somewhere I have seen a foal wearing a E-collar similar to what you see on dogs, to prevent nursing. Also muzzles have been used.
The change can be made over a few days to help prevent diarrhea. For more on this see, Diseases of Horses » Reproductive Diseases » Birthing Problems » Feeding and Caring for the Orphan Foal.
DrO |
Ann
Member
Username: dres
Post Number: 1207
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Mar 7, 2007 - 9:59 am: | |
Lynn, We had to keep a colt off a mare for 3 weeks last year.. we put a muzzle on the colt and milked out the mare every 2 hours, we supplemented the milking with Foalack powder and goats milk.. It was not easy and very tiring.. but after 3 weeks we were able to put the colt back on mom and she was still producing well ..
good luck ..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots. |
Wanda Martinez
Member
Username: sonoita
Post Number: 192
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, Mar 7, 2007 - 10:02 am: | |
Oh Lynn,
He is handsome. Cute name, it fits.
Sorry to hear Lulu' s not so good, well wishes coming your way.
Please keep us updated on "Dexter and Lulu"
Keep pics coming.
Happy Trails |
Lynn
Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 28
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, Mar 7, 2007 - 10:25 am: | |
......and the saga continues. Prior to getting on line today, I placed a call to Vedco....the manufacturer of the Dex I'm using. They put me in contact with their head horse vet.
This morning, Dexter had some diarrhea, but remains alert and appropriately active. The vet representative indicated that with 20mg/day, from the studies done, Dexter wouldn't be getting more than a mg of Dexamethasone through nursing. He said higher doses (50-100mg/day) would definitely raise a flag as to probable problems with a nursing foal, and the medication. Lulu's a heavy milker, and his thoughts were the diarrhea was as a result of that more so than the Dex.
We do have access to goats milk, and I think our best bet is to get him drinking out of a bucket/bottle ASAP, but that's just my gut.
Thanks so much for your information!
Lynn |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 17956
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, Mar 7, 2007 - 6:55 pm: | |
A mg per 80 lbs. of foal would the same as 12 mg per 1000 lbs, and while low, one that is still pharmacologically very active in adults. Did he also have any research in the effect of this dosage over several weeks time on a newborn foal Lynn? I don't know it may be OK but was unable to find likely amounts in the milk or effect on newborns.
DrO
PS would he send us a copy of the research showing the amounts that appears in the mild of mares? |
Lynn
Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 29
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, Mar 8, 2007 - 8:38 am: | |
Wow....great point, Dr. O! Thanks! He discussed the research that was found in the Adams (??) manual. I will place another call today and ask further questions. Thank you, again!
Lynn |
jojo
Member
Username: jojo15
Post Number: 953
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Mar 8, 2007 - 9:04 am: | |
Lynn, so glad "dexter" came out without a hitch. and such a cutie. GREAT NAME... How was the birth? easy? and how is mom doing now? Did any of the swelling go down post birth? I hope the horse pulls thru, and this was just a byproduct to pregnancy... |
Lynn
Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 30
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2007 - 11:01 am: | |
Dr. O:
I've been a bit AWOL. Did place a call the other day to the equine vet that I spoke with at Vedco. He returned my call, however, I missed it. Was out in the barn waiting on a different mare who was showing foaling signs. Anyhow, when I did return his call, I got voicemail, so asked if he might be able to send any printed information he might have about the effects of Dexamethasone and the nursing foal.
In the meantime, Lulu has deteriorated. I've made an appointment to have the vet come and euthanize her tomorrow morning. Her nodes are now increasing in size, and I just can't see her going into respiratory distress before doing something. 
Whether it's right approach or not, Dexter has been nursing and doing well. We have goats milk, and milk replacer on standby for tomorrow. Poor little guy....it breaks my heart.
We've got one mare who's 2 weeks overdue currently. She's an awesome mom...been there, done that type...we were hoping she would've delivered by now, so we could try to see if she'd also take on Dexter. As it is now, she doesn't leave the fenceline, and when Dexter is out of site, she's nickering and looking for him. We also have another mare dripping milk....she's a maiden mare, and not as laid back as 'Tardy', our overdue mare. Guess I'll review the article on 'Orphan Foals', and see where it leads.
 |
Ann
Member
Username: dres
Post Number: 1219
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2007 - 1:00 pm: | |
Oh it breaks my heart too.. you know best tho.. and don't second guess yourself.. He is beautiful.. beefy little fella..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots. |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose
Post Number: 2423
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2007 - 2:01 pm: | |
Lynn, Dexter is an amazing looking little guy! What a build!
I'm so sorry you have to put his dam down, but I'm sure you've made the right decission after a lot of thought. With animals there isn't a more difficult decission to make. I feel strongly, however, that it is our responsibility to be willing to make it when the right time comes; and I think that a person who has a relationship with their animals and is observant knows when that time comes. I had to have one of our horses euthanized yesterday, so I know well how hard this is for you. |
Lynn
Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 31
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2007 - 5:08 pm: | |
Sara: I'm so sorry to hear about the loss of your horse, yesterday. My condolences. Thank you for your kind words, not only about my decision, but also of Dexter. Thoughts are with you, as you heal from your loss.
Ann: Thanks too, for your support. I've been second guessing for a while...hoping things would improve, but they've only worsened. I feel okay about my decision now.
Lynn |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18012
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Mar 15, 2007 - 4:43 am: | |
My condolences on the mare Lynn, and congrats on the rugged little foal above. Be sure to have a necropsy done with biopsy on any abnormal tissues. To get an accurate diagnosis makes a big difference.
For your mares running a bit long, I know it gets worrisome but as long as they are off fescue, it is not a indicator of problems.
DrO |
Kristin
Member
Username: freshman
Post Number: 46
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, Mar 15, 2007 - 4:59 am: | |
I've not posted here much, but I've followed this thread much interest, Lynn. I am so sorry that you are having to deal with your mare's terminal illness in her late pregnancy and in the very first weeks of her foal's life. I am so glad that Dexter is here, and I admire the strength that you have displayed in your decision to let the Lulu go. You are very brave. |
Lilo
Member
Username: lilo
Post Number: 398
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Mar 15, 2007 - 9:32 am: | |
Lynn,
My condolences. Such a tough decision to make. How fortunate that your mare hung in there to give you such a beautiful foal.
Good luck to Dexter - I hope he finds a surrogate Mom.
Lilo |
Erika L
Member
Username: erika
Post Number: 755
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Mar 15, 2007 - 12:14 pm: | |
Lynn and Sarah, so sorry for you both.
Lynn, Dexter is a handsome guy! Hope the mare will adopt him. Sure would make it easier, wouldn't it? Good luck! |
Lynn
Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 32
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, Mar 15, 2007 - 8:02 pm: | |
Thanks, Dr. O, Kristin, Lilo, and Erika. It's been a day. We couldn't get Dexter to take from bucket or bottle for several hours....he was pretty distraught, and no doubt sensed how saddened we also were.
A friend who I hadn't heard from in years happened to call today and asked if there was any way we could provide a home for her 8 year old goat. He apparently lost his sister 2 weeks ago, and has been so depressed. Asked if Dexter may need a companion. We jumped at the chance, and went to pick up 'Al'.
Al and Dexter act like two long lost buddies....both feeding on each others loneliness. Dexter is now drinking great from a bucket, with his new friend at his side. I guess when one door closes, another one truly does open.
The vet examined Dexter when he came out today for Lulu. Gave him the 'thumbs up', but also reinforced that raising an orphan is an uphill climb. We'll take it day by day.
As for a necropsy, we didn't have one done. Lulu's been brought out to the back 40, and buried. I understand how it would've been nice to know exactly what the cause was on paper, but by the same token, it doesn't change the outcome. We do know it wasn't something contageous, so I guess that's probably the most important for us. I do respect and understand your opinion though, on the cause.
Thanks so much for everything!
Lynn |
Ann
Member
Username: dres
Post Number: 1221
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Mar 16, 2007 - 9:53 am: | |
Lynn, we need pictures of Dex and Al.. !~ You will do fine, an uphill climb maybe, but the view once there will be wonderful..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots. |
Susan M. Herrick
Member
Username: quatro
Post Number: 593
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, Mar 16, 2007 - 12:36 pm: | |
Lynn, just sending along our condolences as well, and good luck with Dexter and Al.
Suz |
Lynn
Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 33
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Friday, Mar 16, 2007 - 5:18 pm: | |
Thanks Ann and Suz. Dexter is doing well with bucket feeding, and Al has been heaven sent!
 |
Ann
Member
Username: dres
Post Number: 1222
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Mar 16, 2007 - 10:25 pm: | |
This is PRICELESS
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots. |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose
Post Number: 2434
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Mar 16, 2007 - 10:56 pm: | |
Love the pictures! Dex just keeps looking better and better! He's such a strong, well built looking little guy. Looks like he's doing good on the formula.
I think the only problem you'll have raising this boy is resisting the urge to spoil him rotten! |
Holly Wood
Member
Username: hwood
Post Number: 1880
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Friday, Mar 16, 2007 - 11:07 pm: | |
LOLm . . . Both in their little halters . . . What a pair. Did your other mares deliver, yet, Lynn? Is it still a possibility that he will be able to nurse from one of them? |
jos
Member
Username: paardex
Post Number: 197
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, Mar 17, 2007 - 8:43 am: | |
The pictures are priceless, I saw foals with shetlandpony surrogate family but this tops all!
Please send pictures from time to time they make my day!
Jos |
Fran C
Member
Username: canter
Post Number: 916
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, Mar 17, 2007 - 10:55 am: | |
So Sweet! Dexter is an adorable little guy -and I'm so glad to see that he appears to be thriving with his new friend. Please let me add my condolances for the loss of his mom |
Angie J.
Member
Username: ajudson1
Post Number: 1076
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, Mar 17, 2007 - 6:01 pm: | |
Dexter is a real neat looking little guy. He'll do just fine. We raised an orphan foal once and he turned out great. Just got him drinking out of a bucket as soon as possible and it wasn't so hard. If you need me to take him off your hands and finish raising him....tee hee!!! |
Lynn
Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 34
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, Mar 17, 2007 - 9:19 pm: | |
Thanks, everyone, for your kind words about Dexter and all of your encouragement! We were very pleased with the cross of Lulu on our stallion, and are grateful Dexter (aka: Color MeA Skipa Star) is doing well. I do wonder if it's too late to take stock out in the company that makes Mares Match? He's sure going through it, but no complaints!  Thanks again for all the input during Lulu's illness. |
Wanda Martinez
Member
Username: sonoita
Post Number: 194
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, Mar 17, 2007 - 11:29 pm: | |
Oh Lynn I am so sorry for Lulu I was so hoping she could make it. Send lots of hugs to Dexter and hugs to you too.
HappyTrails |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose
Post Number: 2444
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, Mar 18, 2007 - 12:49 am: | |
I feel for you buying all that Mares Match! We used the Land O'Lakes Brand and I thought the rest of us were going to have to stop eating so we could keep affording the stuff! It was worth it, though. Dex will be, too! Do you have big plans for his future? |
Lynn
Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 35
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, Apr 7, 2007 - 10:55 pm: | |
Just a quick 'Dexter' update. He's now one month old, and doing well, with his buddy, 'Al'. They're inseparable. We belive Al has also taken a liking to Mares Match milk replacer....his wet beard is a bit of a giveaway. When confronted about it, he denies, and replies with, 'nahhhh'. We sure miss Lulu, but also see a lot of her in Dexter. Thanks everyone, for your encouraging and friendly posts.
Lynn
 |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose
Post Number: 2585
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, Apr 7, 2007 - 11:59 pm: | |
Beautiful pictures! Gosh he's a good looking colt! I love the picture of Dex and Al together. I'm glad he's doing good. Lulu left you a wonderful gift to remember her by! |
Lee
Member
Username: paul303
Post Number: 849
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, Apr 8, 2007 - 12:58 am: | |
Boy! Is that little cutie built! Errr...the cutie without the beard. Al, of course, is a prince among goats, and shines with inherent grace.
Thanks for the pictures! |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18186
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Sunday, Apr 8, 2007 - 9:04 am: | |
Wonderful Easter morning images Lynn, and I agree that is one muscular foal.
DrO |
Ann
Member
Username: dres
Post Number: 1250
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, Apr 8, 2007 - 9:55 am: | |
Is he halter bred.. ??? This boy is dripping in muscles all ready.. must be his ''nanny'' heheheee...
thanks for the update and photos... WE WILL WANT MORE YOU KNOW ..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
Wanda Martinez
Member
Username: sonoita
Post Number: 219
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, Apr 8, 2007 - 11:38 am: | |
Thanks Lynn for the photos. More please. Lulu was a good mom. What a handsome boy.
Happy Trails |
Lynn
Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 37
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, Apr 8, 2007 - 8:21 pm: | |
Thanks everyone. We're blessed that Dexter has done as well as he has, considering the circumstances of losing his dam. Kudo's to the scientists/nutritionists who've developed foal milk replacer!!! He's now out romping in the pasture learning to be a horse (or a goat...I'm not sure). Amazing how these youngsters can adapt. His pedigree does carry 'old' halter breeding....sire is a son of Skipa Star, and Lulu was a daughter of Color Me Skip. We try to breed for just a good all-around athlete. |
LL
Member
Username: frances
Post Number: 413
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, Apr 9, 2007 - 5:17 am: | |
What a miracle that Al needed a friend just when Dexter did! They look so happy together and I have to repeat what others have said: the colt is a beauty (but does he bleat or whinny?).
Well done for managing a heartbreaking situation so well. |
Wanda Martinez
Member
Username: sonoita
Post Number: 271
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 7, 2007 - 9:42 am: | |
Lynn,
How is Dexter doing and his friend?
Happy Trails |
Lynn
Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 38
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Monday, May 7, 2007 - 10:50 am: | |
Hi Wanda:
Dexter and Al are doing wonderful!! Thank you for asking. Dex is now 2 months old. Al most recently taught Dexter how to trailer load without anxiety....I've learned a lot from this goat!!! The two remain inseparable!
Lynn
 |
Holly Wood
Member
Username: hwood
Post Number: 1915
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 7, 2007 - 11:31 am: | |
Just TOO adorable, Lynn. |
jos
Member
Username: paardex
Post Number: 254
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 7, 2007 - 12:57 pm: | |
I think I never saw more adorable companions!
Jos |
Lynn
Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 39
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Monday, May 7, 2007 - 1:25 pm: | |
Thank you both. I think they're both pretty cute, but am a bit bias.
Lynn |
Ann
Member
Username: dres
Post Number: 1296
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Monday, May 7, 2007 - 1:30 pm: | |
Lynn, I am in love.. ! They are BOTH about as cute as you can get.. I love the picture with Dex leading Al... oh and Al under his chin.. .. What treasures you have..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
Susan M. Herrick
Member
Username: quatro
Post Number: 644
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 7, 2007 - 1:59 pm: | |
Such a happy thing to see, on such a dreary day in Iowa. Thanks for the smiles
suz |
Lee
Member
Username: paul303
Post Number: 873
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Monday, May 7, 2007 - 10:04 pm: | |
Unbelievably adorable! |
Fran C
Member
Username: canter
Post Number: 1006
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 - 7:49 am: | |
Just priceless! I love seeing everyone's baby pictures. |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose
Post Number: 2740
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 - 9:15 am: | |
These are great! Dex sure is a little tank. How long do goats live? What a pair they will be as Dex continues to grow. |
Wanda Martinez
Member
Username: sonoita
Post Number: 272
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 - 8:10 pm: | |
Lynn,
Thanks for the pics. He is growing so fast. And oh so handsome. Both!
Happy TRails |
Lynn
Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 40
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 - 9:59 pm: | |
Thank you for the kudos. As for how long a goats life expectancy is, I'm not certain. Al is a pygmy goat (believe it or not), and his previous owner had said he was getting up in age, as he's 8 years old now. This could be the start of a new thread.....'Goat Advisor'.
Lynn |
Lilo
Member
Username: lilo
Post Number: 487
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 9, 2007 - 9:39 am: | |
Lynn - very cute photos. How lucky for Dex to have found such a good friend (and teacher). Lilo |
Lynn
Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 41
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jun 27, 2007 - 11:19 pm: | |
Hi:
Just a quick update on Dexter and Al. They've both been weaned from milk replacer, and all is going well. They remain inseparable, and Dexter has now been introduced to a few horse pasturemates. Al has full run of the farm, (we couldn't contain him if we tried!) yet rarely leaves Dexter's side. The other horses have also accepted Al. Everyone seems quite happy.
Raising an orphan can certainly be rewarding....especially when you have Al on your side. :-)
Lynn
 |
Ann
Member
Username: dres
Post Number: 1359
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jun 27, 2007 - 11:59 pm: | |
They are just both so cute.. can you keep them this age for ever.. ? hum , actually they are going to make a cute grown up pair as well..
Dex. is BEAUTIFUL...
on the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots. |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose
Post Number: 2936
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Jun 28, 2007 - 12:08 am: | |
Dex IS Beautiful! Al is really cute, but are you sure about the name "Al?" He looks like he's expecting twins! |
LL
Member
Username: frances
Post Number: 470
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, Jun 28, 2007 - 4:17 am: | |
Sara's right - twins at least! What amazing pictures; in fact this whole thread encapsulates the tears and joys of horse ownership remarkably well.
Please can we continue to see photos of this special pair as they grow up? |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18756
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Jun 28, 2007 - 7:37 am: | |
I too love just reviewing the images and delighted to hear things are going so well.
DrO |
Lee
Member
Username: paul303
Post Number: 924
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Jun 28, 2007 - 10:16 pm: | |
Love the updates! You've certainly got quite a looker in Dex........but my heart belongs to Al. |
Lynn
Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 42
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Friday, Jun 29, 2007 - 12:41 am: | |
Thanks everyone, for your kind remarks. If 'Al' should deliver, we'll certainly let you know! :-) He's a real hoot! We just like to think he's vertically challenged.
Lynn |
Melissa Boschwitz
Member
Username: amara
Post Number: 329
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Jun 29, 2007 - 2:06 pm: | |
twins? triplets at least! wow!
so Dr.O., does the body condition scale apply to goats??? *LOL*... |
Wanda Martinez
Member
Username: sonoita
Post Number: 283
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, Jul 2, 2007 - 4:01 pm: | |
Dex is so handsome. Al to.
Thanks for the pics.
Happy Trails |
Wanda Martinez
Member
Username: sonoita
Post Number: 302
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, Dec 29, 2007 - 10:06 pm: | |
Does anyone know how DEX is doing have not heard and was just wondering. |
Lynn
Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 46
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, Dec 29, 2007 - 11:21 pm: | |
I know!!!
Thank you for asking, Wanda. Dexter was purchased by a wonderful gentleman in Illinois. He will be his trail horse in the years to come, and also a companion to his other gelding. I couldn't have asked for a better home for Dexter! We have full visitation rites and have frequent contact with his new owner. This photo of him was the last one I took prior to him leaving. Life is good for Dex! His new owner did wonder if Al came with the purchase of Dex. We told him that should Al get into the trailer with Dex, then it would be meant to be.....yes, that Al could accompany his buddy....we wouldn't separate them. Fortunately, for us, Al did NOT get into the trailer with Dex. He said his good-byes and went back up to the barn as Dex got into the trailer. Al remains with us, and has taken to watching over the other 3 weanlings, and training a new Rottie puppy how to respect goats. With winter upon us now, he sleeps in his/Dexter's stall, bedded down with straw and cuddled up with the cats at night, and is out during the day, with the horses. He's not lost any weight, but I believe is 'maintaining'. Happy New Year everyone, and thank you for keeping up with Dexter's progress.
Lynn
 |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose
Post Number: 3365
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, Dec 30, 2007 - 12:05 am: | |
I'm so glad Wanda asked about Dex! What a beautiful colt he has turned into! And Al...let's see...did you say "she" was expecting twins? |
Lilo
Member
Username: lilo
Post Number: 695
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, Dec 30, 2007 - 9:20 am: | |
Great news! Dex looks fabulous! And the "weaning" from Al apparently was pretty easy.
Lilo |
Ann
Member
Username: dres
Post Number: 1629
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, Dec 30, 2007 - 10:50 am: | |
well we have to have updated photos of him this spring.. he is so handsome..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
Elizabeth Kaufman
Member
Username: ekaufman
Post Number: 248
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, Dec 30, 2007 - 10:54 am: | |
Hi Lynn,
I just re-read this whole thread this morning, and I think you guys get a great gold star for responsible adaptable breeding and horse care. Looks like Dexter turned out really handsome and sane, and AL hasn't exploded.
Nice rottie as well-- that's a weenie baby one. My Maggie stayed that size for about 7 seconds, seems like. |
LL
Member
Username: frances
Post Number: 561
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, Dec 31, 2007 - 4:47 am: | |
Dex is absolutely gorgeous. I'm so glad you found a good home for him and can continue to see him - which means that WE can continue to see pics!
Hugs to Al - he has a very intelligent look about him and probably deserves a managerial position. |
Fran C
Member
Username: canter
Post Number: 1324
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Monday, Dec 31, 2007 - 11:13 am: | |
What a remarkable story with a wonderful, happy ending. Dex turned out to be a beautiful colt (what a lovely face he has!!) and I think Al deserves a halo.
Thanks for keeping us updated Lynn. |
Lynn
Member
Username: lbystrom
Post Number: 47
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jan 1, 2008 - 4:30 pm: | |
Thanks everyone for the kind words and thoughts. I believe Al does deserve a managerial position, as well as a halo! He's quite the goat, and we're sure fortunate to have him in the barn. I'm anxious to see who he takes under his wing when foals arrive this spring.
I frequently receive updates on Dexter from his new owner, as well as photos, and would be happy to update his progress.
Happy New Year, everyone. Dexter and Al would be humbled to know they have such a wonderful and caring fan club. :-)
Lynn |
