|
|
Discussion on which bone is this..?
|
| Author |
Message |
Member:
Dres
|
Posted on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 5:42 pm:
i am so confused...
i took my 4 year old horse in for a lameness evaluation,. we had to do x-rays and discovered an OLD fracture ( no more x-rays i am afraid of what else we might find..  ) i think of the P3 bone,.. we do not believe this is what is causing his hoof problem now..as this is an 'old' injury, ( by the roundnes of the edges) and are treating him for 'laminitis' type symptoms...(horse trimmed to short and hot nail)
my question is in your radiograph picture.https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/... just outside the circle between 12 o' clock and 1 o'clock that finger like edge, what bone is that..? as that is where the old fracture is on my horse...
being a holiday weekend.. i just don't think i can sit on this till tuesday not knowing what bone that is..
thanks as always...
Ann
|
Member:
Dres
|
Posted on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 5:58 pm:
ok i clicked on my referance and it did not take me to the picture.. so.. i will walk you to it..
Example of common radiographic adnormalities....
to.. the wings of P3
to... with articular involvement
to..3rd.phalanz - fractured wing
to..example 2 dv view
to.. Figure 12
hope this gets you there...
lots of clicking..
Ann
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Sunday, May 25, 2003 - 8:52 am:
I found the image but cannot make heads or tails of what you are trying to describve when you say the "circle". As this view has a number of overlying and superimposed bones I am not sure even if we could identify a area it might not be clear which bone: why not ask your vet which bone?
The important question is does the lameness block out to this region?
DrO
|
Member:
Dres
|
Posted on Sunday, May 25, 2003 - 10:51 am:
ok, one more click.. the ''reveal'' picture where it is circled to let us lay men know what we are looking at... just outside the circle between 12:00 & 1:00 the finger like wing of that bone...
my vet is now out of town.. but i will be asking him more questions when he returns...
yes, when the whole hoof was blocked, he is sound..
one, being when a vet says an old fracture, can he tell old being at 8-9 weeks old., or old being more then a year..? is there a way of telling a time line on a fracture...??
the reason i ask is in thinking back, my horse fell out/ slipped out of the trailer after being shod... he landed pretty hard on that right leg, skinned up his knee and shin and limped away... NOW i am wondering if the fracture could have occurred then, and that it is not the shoeing but.. ( would have been nice for me to remember this 'small' piece of info at the time huh?)..
in reading your informative pages, i see that if this is a 'relative' young fracture that i had better give him most of the summer off even if he is starting to feel better...
also, in a fracture by a joint, if surgery is done to clean it up.. is the prognosis better about arthritis not setting in then if nothing done..? i ask , cus the radiologist said if that is not what is causing lameness now don't mess with it.. BUT.. on the other hand.. i asked what he would say if this was a pre-purchase exam.. he said that he would say have it cleaned up so that it would not be an issue... so what am i hearing here.. he's my horse not for sale, so be it, take my chances.. and if he were for sale well most folks won't take a chance clean it up so he can be sold.... huh? i want whats best for the horse to have a long sound career..
as always, thanks for listening & time spent with us
Ann
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 6:35 am:
That is the wing of the coffin bone (third phalanx). Coffin bone fractures are notorious for not completely ossifying so they are harder to read than fractures of other bones, so history is the best way to know the age of the fracture. In genral articular fractures need more stabilization than non articular fractures to prevent arthritis.
If you are uncertain about the diagnosis and recommendations get a second opinion by having the radiographs sent to a equine orthopedic surgeon.
DrO
|
Member:
Dres
|
Posted on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 10:13 am:
ahh great.. i thought it was a the wing... and yes i will be in touch with UCD most likely..
a fall HARD straight down, effecting abrassions on the knee and shin, could that cause a fracture of the wing..? isn't the wing on the outside edges of the hoof not centered..??
with one answered question, there are several more that always seem to follow....
thanks Ann
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 6:26 pm:
As the wing is encased in the hoof wall racture is not so much caused by direct trauma as it is unbalanced forces on the sole causing a torsion of the hoof wall. But this may have been a component of his fall, but you are going about this wrong: you don't make the diagnosis spending lots of effort with thought experiments about such "possibilities". You localize the lameness to the smallest area possible then you look for lesions that may be responsible. The rest often turns out to be a waste of time and worry.
DrO
|
Member:
Dres
|
Posted on Friday, Jun 20, 2003 - 10:52 am:
ok Dr. O, i took picasso back to the surgeon this time, at the same clinic.. ( same clinic.. so is this really a second opinion?) by now the horse had been off for over 9 weeks but was showing less signs now of limping... anyway he lunged him on hard ground to get the slight limp back then blocked the heels... he was 80% more sound from that block, but tripped a lot.? ( cus of the block?) the vet looked over the x-rays again and told me that he felt that the break (extensor process ) was not causing the limp cus when blocking his heels he was much better. ( the tripping?) and again felt the fracture was an old one...
ok , i raised this horse he has never been lame.. NEVER... but he was dead lame when he fell out of the trailer and was so for 3 weeks at the walk , with improvement over the next few weeks to now .. not lame at all... so i am not convinced by the age of this fracture...
he is a heavy stall banger, with his front hoofs...mostly the right .. ( the broken one..).. the vet said that he could have done it then some time ago..., and that in the x-rays i guess he could see a thicking ( shadow) of the front part of his hoof , classic of a stall kicker.. ! (?)
his recommendations was to put a aluminum egg bar shoe with performance pads with frog support on him.. and go ahead and ride him.,.. if he comes up lame again , then we should possibly try HA injections... see how that works... then if we have to re-evaluate & talk about surgery of the extensor process fracture...
well i have put the prescription shoeing on him... but.. after reading your articles feel i should just play it safe and not do anything with him.... for what 3- 4 months? then back with light work? ( recommendations here on time line)
so my questions are..: this kind of fracture, is the prognoses good for a sound recovery and show career..?? he is just 4..
by your answer above about the difficulty in telling age of the fracture am i being silly by not completely being convinced of the time of injury...??/... blocking the heels cus him to trip when being trotted out after wards..??/ and, what kind of injuries have you come across from hard stall kickers..????
thanks again as usual Ann...
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Saturday, Jun 21, 2003 - 8:49 am:
1) Without looking at the horse and the radiographs I do not know what your horse's diagnosis/prognosis is and you and your vet seem to remain uncertain as well. The article on coffin bone fracture states the prognosis for these injuries if treated according to the article.
2) Stall kicking leads to lameness from injury to the areas contacting the wall.
DrO
|
Member:
Paul303
|
Posted on Saturday, Jun 21, 2003 - 8:12 pm:
Hey Anne, can you screw a rubber stall mat to his stall door? It might soften the blows.
|
Member:
Dres
|
Posted on Sunday, Jun 29, 2003 - 10:02 am:
'good morning.... i have a general question on a fracture of the extensor process... generally how long is a horse lame on that hoof.?
at this point my gelding almost 12 weeks, seems to be sound just in daily movement .. he is in a 12 X 24 stall with a fairly good size paddox for the last 3 months...no bounding pulse.. i lunged him the other day, it took about 4 laps to show a slight bob at the trot...either direction
wondering if now is the time to take him to UCD, with such a slight bob, or does this need more time to feel better..?
just a ball park figure would be nice..
thanks Ann
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Monday, Jun 30, 2003 - 6:51 am:
Hello Anne
I am sorry for the size of this ballpark, but in general extensor process fractures can remain lame from 0 days to forever...really. Small nonarticular extensor fractures are sometimes found incidentally, say on a preurchase exam on a sound horse, while other large articular fractures remain lame forever due to instability and secondary DJD on the coffin joint. }
This would be a question for the folks who can look at your horse and radiographs, but remember anytime you are uncomfortable is a good time to get a second opinion.
DrO
|
|
|
