Use the navigation bar above to access articles and more discussions on this topic.
| Author |
Message |
    
Zoe Williams
Member
Username: fahren
Post Number: 48
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, Apr 19, 2007 - 6:04 pm: |   |
My 2 y/o (in may) colt has been standing a bit on his toes, mostly on his left front. He has upright pasterns. My farrier was out yesterday and commented that his tendons might be contracted because he is growing too fast. I have had him since Nov 06 and he was 16hh at the wither. In the past he had problems with what they called overgrowth and ha to be on a mild starvation type diet and he looked almost emaciated. I SLOWLY upped his grain and had him on a gaining diet of purina Strategy(14% protein 6% fat 1% calcium .6% phosphorus 80.0000 ppm Copper, .6000 ppm selenium) and beet-pulp. 14 lbs Strategy/Day and beetpulp and recently 1 lb of purina amplify 14% protein and 30% fat as a coat and bloom supplement. We were trying to get a body condition to do breed shows. He also gets a hoof supplement and corta-flx and ocd-equine. He gets free choice non Timothy type hay. He is now 16.1 at the wither and but high. The farrier thought the tendons on the front of his legs were growing slower then his bones. I reed the articles associated with this problem. I now have him on stall rest and have cut his grain to 9 lbs Strategy and 1lb amplify and free choice hay with the same supplements. How long should he remain on stall rest? I was thinking of lowering his ration even more to 6 lbs strategy/day with the rest the same. Will he have to get back to the skin and bones condition he was in before to not have this problem? I need to also take him to a kuring in the fall and an trying to figure out if there is a happy medium for body condition and not growing like a weed (which he does even with very little nutrition). Can he be hand walked or should he just stay in his stall. How long should he be in for? He is off at the trot on his left front. Does wrapping help? Anything to help his tendons catch up? Thanks. I have attached two pictures taken the other day and one from when I got him for condition comparison.
 |
Ann
Member
Username: dres
Post Number: 1270
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Apr 19, 2007 - 6:36 pm: | |
zoe, can you get a confirmation shot of him, from the front and side so we can see a little more clearer on what you speak of..
I never feed my young horses grain of any kind.. actually I don't feed any of my horses grain ever.. We feed a grassy alfalfa hay and to the young ones I tend to feed more grass hay.. Growing to quickly can be a problem.. My just 4 year old is 17'2''+ hhs now.. I am sure she will fill out more too.. My yearling is very close to 15 hhs tall.. very lean , on pasture grass and grass hay at night .. I don't supplement them at all but have a free choice loose mineral salts for them and a white salt lick..
your guy is very cute..
On the first day God created horses on the second day he painted them with spots. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18284
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Apr 19, 2007 - 8:58 pm: | |
Ann is right Zoe, conformation shots would be better for assessing the condition.
The article recommendations this course in young foals, your horse may be too old to respond to such therapy. You need to get your veterinarian involved for advice on the best course and to diagnose the cause of the lameness. I would look at the tendons and toe bruising as two problems associated with flexural contracture but this requires diagnosis to rule out other causes.
As surgery may be the best option and the sooner the better. If together you decide you are going to give the nutritional route a try you should follow the recommendations in the article to the letter. Your dietary changes are not even close. Hand walking or even paddock rest would be fine, in fact recommended.
DrO |
Zoe Williams
Member
Username: fahren
Post Number: 49
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Friday, Apr 20, 2007 - 3:33 pm: | |
I will try for some better pictures. I called my vet and they are going to come look at him on monday. They said to give him bute and take him off all but a handful of grain/day. Also that he should stay in his stall or could go out if he was going to be calm. I tried him out and he was pretty calm, but after just a little moving around he was standing over on his right foot.
 |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18292
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Saturday, Apr 21, 2007 - 10:22 am: | |
That sounds like a reasonable course Zoe. Before you started uping the diet would you say the pastern angle was normal.
DrO |
Zoe Williams
Member
Username: fahren
Post Number: 50
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, Apr 21, 2007 - 12:47 pm: | |
Maybe... I just tried looking at the pictures of when I first got him. They are not great pictures, but the angle does seem more normal. Someone suggested that fish-oil helps tendons grow... any truth to that? Do you think he should be out stretching even if it makes him a bit sore, or in resting?
 |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18295
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Sunday, Apr 22, 2007 - 8:14 pm: | |
No, fish oil is not going to help this problem. As to exercise I would follow your vets advice, right now you would like these muscles to relax as much as possible exercise will not cause them to stretch but will strengthen the muscles which causes them to contract.
DrO |
Kristin
Member
Username: freshman
Post Number: 68
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, Apr 22, 2007 - 9:48 pm: | |
JMO, but the horse looks much worse in the current photos compared to the previous ones that you provided. I'm not sure if diet and rest, alone, could return him to a better confirmation, but I'd be trying that and checking out what else I could do for his condition as well.
The horse looks pretty crippled. I'm not sure that kuring is a reasonable goal for him at this point, and for his sake, please try every possible route to correcting/controlling his extreme uprightness/contracture. As it is, his future soundness for sport or even pasture comfort look like they might be in question.
Perhaps I am inexperienced in this area, but I can say that I've never seen a horse quite this compromised except for as a very, very young foal. I am familiar with a 3-4 year old mule that underwent a surgical procedure to alleviate a similar condition in one front limb. It was a salvage procedure aimed at providing the animal with a comfortable existance and hope for some ridability in the future.
Best of luck with your boy. I hope that he has a good prognosis.} |
Zoe Williams
Member
Username: fahren
Post Number: 52
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 9:04 am: | |
Dr. O,
My vet and farrier have discussed what to do with Fahren, He is not getting worse and seams to be slowly improving. They want to put toe extensions on. What length should they be? I was also reading that they should raise his heal, the fairer thought he should take away his natural heal and fill it in with a false one. As I understand it, this is involving his MCP and not the one that causes club foot. To me it sounded like the farrier was getting the two confused? Thanks
Zoe |
Zoe Williams
Member
Username: fahren
Post Number: 53
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Friday, Jun 15, 2007 - 12:20 pm: | |
Update,
On May 23 Fahren had toe extensions and heal raiser pads put on his front feet. We have also been doing some range of motion stretches. He has been eating 1 lb strategy (14/6) and 1 lb beetpulp and 1-2 flakes of hay twice a day along with a hoof supplement and corta-flex powder. He had finished his 75 days of the ocd pellets he was on. We have just yesterday added back in the purina amplify 1/2 lb twice a day. It is hard for me to judge as I see him everyday but I would be curious to see if others see a difference. He has almost completely stopped knuckling over. I will also post a few pics of the body condition we have him at now.
|
Zoe Williams
Member
Username: fahren
Post Number: 54
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Friday, Jun 15, 2007 - 12:34 pm: | |
Body condition first pic when I noticed the problem, second pic 6/14/07
 |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18693
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Sunday, Jun 17, 2007 - 1:50 pm: | |
Zoe he looks improved but I don't think this is the time to start increasing his concentrate, in fact I recommend less concentrate than you have been using. Again review the recommendations in the article on flexor contracture.
DrO |
Zoe Williams
Member
Username: fahren
Post Number: 56
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, Jun 17, 2007 - 3:45 pm: | |
Thanks for the advice Dr. O,
I just re-read my posts and realized I did not say what he has been eating. I had him on 1 lb Strategy twice/day and free choice hay. We stopped the free choice grass hay because with his grain cut he started gorging on the hay. He started getting 1-2 flakes twice a day and 12 hrs of turnout on a low grass pasture. Between the two of those the ratios seemed right per you article. Fahren weighs about 1000 lbs, so according to you article he should get 1 lb of calf-manna or similar a day. In my last post I mentioned that we had just added 1/2 lb more amplify. I will cut out 1/2 lb strategy so he will be getting 1 lb total twice/day. I know your article suggests 1/2 of that for his size. I have a hard time doing that... but if it will really help him I will try. Is the beet pulp okay? I reduce the hay in exchange for it and it makes him think he is getting more food? How long does a horse need to remain on this type of diet? Thanks
Zoe |
Ellab
Member
Username: ellab
Post Number: 24
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 18, 2007 - 8:45 am: | |
When my yearling gelding had this issue my vet had me jogging him up and down a fairly steep hill for 20 minutes 2x per day. My husband and I would trade off so we could keep him going. She also had us feeding a small amount of trotter pellets (1/2 qt 2x per day) and free choice hay and grass turnout - nothing more, not even treats. He was much better within a month but we kept this routine up all summer. I had to be very careful for about a year what I fed him after that. She (the vet) said that the jogging on the hill would stretch the tendons. It worked and the added benefit was that my husband and I were in the best shape of our lives - lol.
EllaB |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18704
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 18, 2007 - 9:47 am: | |
I would not feed the beet pulp either Zoe. How long they remain on a restricted diet will differ from horse to horse and have seen horses respond well only to have them become contracted again when started back on regular feed. So be cautious keep the condition on the thin side and make any changes back to regular feed slowly and monitor for changes.
DrO |
Zoe Williams
Member
Username: fahren
Post Number: 57
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 18, 2007 - 10:42 am: | |
OK Dr. O
Will do. The jogging up and down a hill sounds interesting, any benefit to that? He has toe extensions on. Since this has happened we have stopped all forced exercise. Is that the right thing to do. He had been trotting around the arena loose for about 10 min 4 times a week to help with his lack of muscle. Now he is in during the day and out at night and they dont move around that much. Just wondering what the best course as far as that goes is?
Zoe |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18707
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 18, 2007 - 6:18 pm: | |
I have mixed feelings about Ellab's post. It makes sense that walking uphill might help stretch tendons so I started to support the idea then remembered a case where exercise would cause strengthening of the flexor group and increase the contracture: during the day when out exercising the foal would be up but after a night in would come back down. So I think it is a mixed bag that on balance might be helpful but would assess the results on a case by case basis.
DrO |
Ellab
Member
Username: ellab
Post Number: 25
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 18, 2007 - 8:00 pm: | |
If I am reading between the lines correctly Zoe, You are concerned that you would like your horse to look round and healthy (we all like our horses to look that way) and would like to give him more to eat so he does not look like he has been starved. I think that you will have to let that go for a bit. He will, in the not too distant future, have reached his full growth. At that point he can get fat and round and look the way you would like him too. In the meantime, protein is his enemy. It is best for him that he does not look his best (if that makes any sense).
Good luck!
EllaB  |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18711
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jun 19, 2007 - 7:51 am: | |
I would like to fine tune the notion that "protein is his enemy". High protein diets alone (experiments have been run on normal-caloric but high protein diets on large numbers of horses over a long period of time) have not been shown to be responsible for developmental orthopedic defects.
Over-nutrition in general has been found to increase problems however and some horses seem predisposed genetically even on pretty reasonable diets. See our article for nutrition recommendations.
DrO |
Zoe Williams
Member
Username: fahren
Post Number: 58
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jun 19, 2007 - 8:40 am: | |
Yes EllaB,
That is my struggle but I know this is what makes sense for babies. He has to go to a Kuring in August and he will just have to go skinny! If the hill walking does not make him "tight" then maybe that will help with a nice muscle tone. Dr. O, while he is in these shoes/has this problem is forced exercise ok? (8-10 min of trotting around the ring 4 times a weak) Or would you wait on that as well?
Zoe |
Ellab
Member
Username: ellab
Post Number: 26
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jun 19, 2007 - 9:51 am: | |
Zoe,
I have a filly now that started in this directions too. She is 2 this week and started up on her pasterns as a late weanling. I was able to catch it early because I had had the problem before with the gelding I spoke about. She is 16.3 hands at the butt and 16.1 up front. Once getting her angles back I have been able to keep her fat and healthy looking on very little grain and lots and lots of fresh grass without having her growth exceed her ability to keep up in her tendons. She is very lazy for a young one so I did do blood work and found her red cell count down too low. The vet thinks that she has put so much energy into growing into a moose that she has had none left to feel good/healthy.
This huge growth can be such a problem! I would have been happy with a 15.3h horse!
Keep us informed
EllaB |
jos
Member
Username: paardex
Post Number: 306
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jun 19, 2007 - 12:29 pm: | |
Zoe,Because it is a warmblood I am assuming he is going to an 'exterieur keuring'[His type and model and walk and trot looked at by a jury?]
Consider keeping him at home this year not only because he is skinny but until you have solved his tendon/muscle problem.
It could cost him a lot of points and the jury does not forget. If you show him next year in perfect condition they will never know and a good chance he will score much higher.
[Only trying to help thats the way we do it]
Jos |
Zoe Williams
Member
Username: fahren
Post Number: 59
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jun 19, 2007 - 1:34 pm: | |
JOS,
You are right, he is a Belgian Warmblood and I wish I could wait until next year! However the circumstances demand he be seen this year. He has not yet been presented even for his foal papers (his breeders house burnt down and getting the babes to the kuring was not priority for the next few years). The belgians will normally look at weanlings and yearlings with special permission for their erg papers. We had to get special permission to even present him as a 2 year old for the first time and they have told his breeder this is the last time they will look at the foals from this year. I would love to wait till everything is back to normal, but this is my quandary. We had originally bought him as a stallion prospect and his scores are quite important. So that is why I am concerned about trying to get him to look his best and still keeping his growth in check. Someone suggested cool calories 100 for the 6 wks leading up to the event, but I also want to know what type of exercise he can get. The handlers I had spoken with before this occurred had said he should be going in side reins to help his topline, but I dont think walking in side reins will cut it... I dont know what I should be doing??? |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18714
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jun 19, 2007 - 7:23 pm: | |
Hmmm Zoe, trotting in an extended toe... it is hard to say what you might get away with but I would wait as you may end up with a bowed tendon.
DrO |
Zoe Williams
Member
Username: fahren
Post Number: 60
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jun 20, 2007 - 12:49 pm: | |
Wait I will as I dont want to risk that! |
jos
Member
Username: paardex
Post Number: 310
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jun 20, 2007 - 2:23 pm: | |
Zoe a shame you cannot keep him home especially if he is a breeding prospect. It is true a lot of horses are prepared but good jurys look true this we had a stallion approved once who was really underweight with a horrible coat[we bought him to late] but he still was approved.
The condition and muscles I wouldn't worry about that much it feels horrible for the owner but the judges try to see the 'genetics' and not what training has made of him.
Jos |
Zoe Williams
Member
Username: fahren
Post Number: 61
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jun 20, 2007 - 5:26 pm: | |
thanks jos, and this year is just for his foal papers and first look and two year old futurity. I just hate showing a horse that looks that way, but not much to be done |
Cynthia G
Member
Username: cgby1
Post Number: 101
Registered: 5-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, Jun 21, 2007 - 5:37 pm: | |
I hope you don't mind but I have a question along the same line. I have a two year old filly that had the same problem as a yearling. We ended up doing check ligament surgery on her. She is a 1/2 Trakehner and I haven't registered her yet. I am wondering if I should even try to register her with a sport horse registery. |
jos
Member
Username: paardex
Post Number: 315
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Friday, Jun 22, 2007 - 4:09 am: | |
If it were my horse I would train her as long as possible to have her look her best and perhaps show her [dressage? showjumping?] to as high a level as possible and after that register her the judges see young horses'as they are born' and older 'as they have been born and able to perform'.
It is not meant unpleasantly but imo you have a disadvantage to work away so the more good things you can add the better.
Keep in mind I speak from a European point of vieuw[register possibilities etc] but for warmblood registered horses I think the rules are the same in the US.
If you want to sell perhaps you could have no other option then register soon.
I would always wait until 3 years old it gives time for good lungework and warmbloods usually are not at their most advantageous at one or two years. We showed them as a foal and after that [with an occasional exception] as three or even four year old.
Hope this helps
Jos |
Cynthia G
Member
Username: cgby1
Post Number: 104
Registered: 5-2006
| | Posted on Friday, Jun 22, 2007 - 11:51 pm: | |
Thanks Jos, I had been planning to start lunge work, I want to get her into condition for dressage, at least to start. I am working with her mother in dressage. We started 6 months ago and are both learning with the help of a trainer. I do not have any intention of selling her, so waiting is not a problem. I only breed for my own use and to replace my older horses when they retire. |
Stacy Duke
New Member
Username: sduke
Post Number: 4
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jul 3, 2007 - 11:45 am: | |
Our two year old gelding had check ligament surgery on his left front leg today. I have had horses for years and we have a small breeding farm and this is the first horse that we have ever experienced this problem with. We do not know much about this and wondering what the prognosis is for him. He is a very beautiful Saddlebred and won the WI Futurity last year. We are still in shock that this happened to him. Any comments or advice? Thanks |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18780
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jul 4, 2007 - 10:10 am: | |
Hello Stacy,
You need to start this in your own discussion rather than interrupting Zoe's. Just back up one page on the navigation frame above and you will find the new discussion button at the bottom of the list of already existing discussions. Before you post however be sure to read the article associated with this forum as it may have the answers you are looking for.
DrO |
Zoe Williams
Member
Username: fahren
Post Number: 67
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jul 4, 2007 - 12:23 pm: | |
Hi Dr. O and all,
Just hoping you could comment on weather you see continued improvement from the last set of pictures. These were taken today.
Zoe
 |
Zoe Williams
Member
Username: fahren
Post Number: 68
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jul 4, 2007 - 12:38 pm: | |
chronological order: 11/06, 4/5/07, 4/20/07, 6/15/07, 7/4/07
 
  |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18786
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Friday, Jul 6, 2007 - 6:32 am: | |
To me Zoe the pasterns look a little more upright in some of the images.
DrO |
Zoe Williams
Member
Username: fahren
Post Number: 72
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Friday, Jul 6, 2007 - 8:33 am: | |
Hi Dr.O,
The two Pics right above your post are taken 2 1/2 weeks apart. The one on the left is the older picture. So I am clear you think his angle is getting more upright? I guess I can see that in the pictures. Could that be because it is time to reset the shoes? (which it is). He is eating very little, we dont have calf manna around here so he is getting the purina strategy, 2 cups (16 oz dry measure) twice a day and about 2 flakes twice a day.
Zoe |
Elizabeth Kaufman
Member
Username: ekaufman
Post Number: 18
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Friday, Jul 6, 2007 - 12:26 pm: | |
Hi Zoe,
To my eye it looks like his pasterns have gotten more upright over time. It's hard to say, and I'm no expert, but the 11/06 shot looks better than the recent ones.
I don't know whether this can be fixed in the timeframe you desire, or to the extent you want. Strategy is fed by weight, but that volume seems like a lot for a horse on this program. Purina makes a product that is comparable to Calf Manna-- it's called Born to Win, and I have had good success with it (in much smaller amounts than you are feeding now). Perhaps you could give him more grass hay and reduce/eliminate the concentrates? |
Zoe Williams
Member
Username: fahren
Post Number: 73
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Friday, Jul 6, 2007 - 12:47 pm: | |
Hi Elizabeth,
I probably confused things by putting all the pictures together. He was definitely better when I got him (11/06). Then the middle pictures are of when we first noticed the problem. Then on the 6/15 pic there seemed to be some improvement. But I think Dr. O was saying on the 7/4 the improvement had diminished. The strategy he is getting now equals about 1 lb twice a day. I can get born to win. I could try just that and grass hay. Do you think it would be the same amounts as suggested with the calf manna? I would not feel comfortable feeding grass hay all by itself, even though he is growing to fast he needs some nutrition... |
Elizabeth Kaufman
Member
Username: ekaufman
Post Number: 20
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Friday, Jul 6, 2007 - 1:30 pm: | |
Hi Zoe,
It was me who wasn't clear-- I personally don't see much improvement over time, and I wonder if some of the interim "progress" in the pastern wasn't due to him standing over at the knee (which he seemed to be doing in some of the photos).
The feeding instructions for Born 2 Win are on the bag. It is designed to be fed in VERY SMALL amounts. I have had good luck cutting the recommended amounts in half (or less). But I would listen to your vet and Dr. O about whether he needs concentrates at all right now.
Of course you know him best, but I personally would not hesitate to put a 2 year old on grass hay only with a salt block and water if I felt that his future soundness were at stake. My (now 5) stallion was 16 hands at 2, and I was all about slowing him down if I could. Horses truly are adapted to browse rather than rich feeds, and it shouldn't be fatal to confine him to that, in my unprofessional, unqualified opinion. "Ugly early" might be good words for this guy, in order to give him a shot at being his best later on.... |
Charlayne
Member
Username: image
Post Number: 41
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Friday, Jul 6, 2007 - 8:00 pm: | |
Hi Zoe,
My stocky 6 month old AQHA filly developed this problem too. We worked with our farrier and vet with the special shoes and dietary changes. We had to take her down to a 10% protein grain, free choice coastal hay and No suppliments. We made very sure the calcium/phosphorus ratios were correct as well as protein levels to slow her down. (she was in a huge growth spurt) Vet said he wanted her LEAN. It just about killed me because I like mine round too especially my babies. We did all this for 2 months with some improvement but not enough. The vet was concerned that she would not remain sound enough to even be a pasture ornament much less a cutting/trail horse and that she needed a check ligament desmotomy, the sooner the better. (by this time, she would only walk very slowly, no matter what was happening...she would rarely run amd then only to "save her life".) We did the surgery and followed the vet's directions to the letter. She was kept in a stall for the first week. The second week, we were told to build a small paddock that she could be outside a little and handwalked everyday for 15-20 minutes. Vet had us build on 5 minutes every few days. At the end of the 6 week program, she no longer had to be support wrapped but remained in her paddock or handwalked to get her legs used to working without the support. 2 more weeks before turnout by herself. It was hard on her and hard on me but it was worth everything we went through...it saved her quality of life. She is 7 years old now. Round, shiny, happy and SOUND! There is nothing she cannot and doesn't do that every other horse does.
I know you want your boy to look great especi |
