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Corinne Meadows
Member
Username: corinne
Post Number: 1046
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jun 5, 2007 - 10:03 pm: |   |
My 9 yr old 900 lb Arabian, just vetted and dewormed regularly, has lost some weight and now has a body condition of 4 from a 5 or 6, over the last few weeks after being switched to night turnout and our increase in training from first level to second level dressage. I have read all the nutritional articles but it’s a lot of information to absorb so just in case I missed or misunderstood anything I have read, even if I have tried to go about this on my own I just need others opinions from HA.
Prior to the change to night turnout he was initially getting 2-3 flakes of organic grass hay 2x daily with 3 lbs of soaked beet pulp at night with his multi vitamin and 2lbs of triple crown which is a high fat low carb feed with each feed which he ate all of. He had 12 hours of turnout in between meals. In the turnout there is a round bale that is about 11 months old that he does not eat off of (new cutting is this month) and he has grass to graze on in 3 900 x 900 paddocks they can go back and forth between. He is the lowest in the herd that consists of an older gelding and an alpha mare. They do seem to boss him at times but he has plenty of space to move to graze else ware.
Now with being out at night and in during the day there is free choice hay and water in his stall but he seems so sleepy and not a fan of the growing heat (fans are on) or he is looking out his window wanting to go out so he only eats half of the hay. We can close the stall door but it’s too hot to close the window. When the barn manager noticed he was losing weight after the switch to night turnout and increase in training levels (he did lose weight last time year this time when we moved from 40 degree weather to 100 degree temps so we think this is seasonal) she upped his Triple Crown Senior to 3 lbs gradually 2X daily and added an extra feeding of soaked beet pulp (which is a almost a forage from what I read) in the AM. May I also note that we were schooling first and second level dressage five days a week and showing every other weekend so we were burning more than he was eating.
We have now made some changes.
We added on weight gainer which has 14% crude protein and 40% fat, 4 oz daily in divided doses instead of adding more grain like the local vet (all animal vet) suggested since the barn manager didn't feel comfortable with him getting 8 lbs of grain a day, and since he has all the forage he can eat but it’s probably of moderate quality, as it is getting to the cut off of being old, we added a fat supplement from Manna pro that is just 98% crude fat. Additionally 1lb of chopped alfalfa has been added to his beet pulp and he totally loves that!
We now only work out 3-4 times weekly for 45 minutes with 15 of warm up and cool down, so the work is not vigorous except the 15 minutes we are schooling second level or showing. The suggestion was made too, after he is worked and cooled off to give him some soaked alfalfa cubes as a snack to put back in what we burned off.
The vet is not worried that there are any medical issues as he has examined him a few times but I am concerned and want to nip the loss in the bud now. We hope to see improvements in his weight over the next month or two and will come off the weight gainer and keep the alfalfa if he improves his condition.
So in summary
During the Day
Water at all times
He has free choice hay for 12 hours of the day, eats maybe half of what is provided
He gets 3 lbs of Triple Crown low carb feed 2 x daily
He gets 3 lbs of soaked beet pulp with 1 lb of chopped alfalfa, with the weight gainer 2 oz per feed and fat supplement 3oz per feed.
Multi Vit 1X daily
During the night
Water at all times
Grass forage in pasture
He has never had any issues with colic, bowel movements, urination, coat condition changes, changes in behavior.
I hope we are on our way to getting back his beautiful topline. I think I have the only horse who is an easy keeper in the winter and a hard keeper in the summer. I have to remember he spent 8 yrs of his life in very very cold climates. Does it sound like we are on our way?
v/r
Corinne |
Corinne Meadows
Member
Username: corinne
Post Number: 1049
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jun 5, 2007 - 11:35 pm: | |
Julie,
I am going to answer you on this post because the other post wasn't finished when it was posted by my error when I thought I was editing and hit post on accident. Sorry. I hope get my reply to you on this post.
I wish we could add leafy alfalfa but in Oklahoma we have blister beatles so they do not feed it to horses in this region because it may be deadly.
We will be moving to yet another base in 12 months so perhaps when we get to another base that will be an option. I am hoping we get back to the cold where he feels more comfortable and what we are doing in the mean time helps.
I do appreciate your advice~
Thanks so much!
Corinne |
Corinne Meadows
Member
Username: corinne
Post Number: 1051
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jun 5, 2007 - 11:44 pm: | |
P.S. We will see how the alfalfa does then titrate down on the weight gainer and the extra grain but he was a hard keeper all summer last year. From what I can tell he is only getting six lbs of concentrates and the rest can be chalked up to forage, then the fat supplement (beet pulp being somewhere in between). We will obviously watch him closely health wise. He will be heading to the Equine Vet School at OSU in the next month to have his melanoma's frozen and they will evaluate his condition there as well, I hope that he will have gained some by then. I heard from one trainer that they can lose 50lbs a day but can only gain back 1 lb per day safely. Not sure if that's true or not but I sure wish that were the same for me! LOL. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18642
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jun 6, 2007 - 6:54 am: | |
I am trying to find a point of view to support what the trainer said but I cannot make it work. While a long distance endurance horse could easily loose 50lbs in a day it would largely be water weight which can be replaced in 3 to 5 days. I do not know of any unsafe numbers for rate of weight gain but there are some unsafe amounts of concentrate fed at one time. It seems to me I have seen horses gain considerably more than a lb a day using those safe guidelines however.
All in all you look like you are making logical adjustments to your feeding program. Important now is to avoid further weight loss by carefully monitoring response. There should be no further loss of weight and you should start seeing improvement in 3 weeks.
DrO |
Beverly
Member
Username: jockyrdg
Post Number: 53
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jun 6, 2007 - 7:05 am: | |
Corinne; just echoing Dr Oglesby comment on the weight loss/gain question. Rutger's has regularly conducted weight and nutrition studies at the 3 day (now Long format) event run in NJ. They weigh on arrival, after cross country and again at the end. I don't remember the exact numbers, but 50 pounds of water on a hot cross country course was not unheard of (and that's just being out for a few hours). While the numbers escape me, they sure gained back more than a pound the next day. I believe they may even have some stats on gain depending on if the horse was hydrated by drinking, or IV. Check their website www.esc.rutgers.edu or call Dr. Carrie Williams at the Rutgers Equine Science Center. They were out there weighing this weekend. |
Corinne Meadows
Member
Username: corinne
Post Number: 1052
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jun 6, 2007 - 9:50 am: | |
Thanks Dr. O. for the first time I wanted to be autonomous in my decision making by reading the research on nutrition and body condition you have provided, applying what I have learned and then perhaps just checking in to see if I had made the right decisions. I am happy to know that you think I have made logical adjustments to his feeing program (as well as his keepers).
Beverly...thanks for the resource. I will check that out this evening as I have to get up and ride before the heat index hits 98 and we both lose weight....LOL...well for me that would be a good thing.
Corinne |
Stacy Upshaw
Member
Username: 36541
Post Number: 316
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jun 6, 2007 - 10:01 am: | |
Corinne, does Demetrius look good at this new weight? Is his muscle tone good? Is he happy and perky, normal temperment in work? We have seen pics of him in the past, could you take a conformation type shot from the side for comparison? Is it possible some of the change is from increased fitness due to more collected work? |
cp
Member
Username: cpacer
Post Number: 342
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jun 6, 2007 - 4:07 pm: | |
Hey Corinne, I can sympathise on having an arabian that makes people think he's being starved! Mine doesn't get anywhere near as much exercise as Demetrius, but it seemed 100lbs would drop-off if I turned by back for a second.
I'm glad to hear DrO say there's no harm in quick weight gain though, because since my boys have been living at home he's plumped up very nicely (I was worried about rapid weight gain). |
Corinne Meadows
Member
Username: corinne
Post Number: 1053
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jun 6, 2007 - 6:05 pm: | |
Stacy and CP I believe the more collected work is a contributing factor for sure, not to mention the show schedule we have been keeping. He has lost some of his top line, but his ability to work has not decreased any, he is happy and perky when I am there, although perkier in the evening when turnout is coming. He seems somewhat sleepy during the day when I am not messing with him, except when we are working, but he is probably up all night in turnout. All the horses in the barn seem to be sleepy during the day with this turnout schedule. In fact now that I think about it all the horses have lots of hay left during the day in their stall and they all seem to be standing in the corner of their stalls instead of eating. They are just bigger than him to begin with and some aren't getting worked that much.
I first noticed his girth was getting a bit too big two weeks ago, then his hips started to show a little more. Kim increased his grain by this point.
I will take a picture but won't be up at the barn until Monday as we have a family reunion for Herb's side of the family in Dallas this weekend.
Today we only worked 45 minutes and then after cool down he got 3 lbs of soaked alfalfa cubes....he ate about half of that. I just think he just isn't as hungry in the summer...much like me when the heat starts to rise. He may be an Arab but spent 8 of his nine years in a very very cold climates. Even in the summer up north we had 40 degree days at times.
It was about 90 degrees when we rode today but we are in an indoor with lots of cross breeze. He has the fans on during the day when in the stall. Hopefully all the interventions we are trying will help. Dressage is such an athletic sport that I suspect as we move up the levels his nutritional status will change a lot in addition to changes in his nutritional status due to weather changes and moves etc.
Yes CP I am glad too that he can gain more than one lb a day safely! I was afraid it would take the rest of show season for him to gain all the weight back. And yes I know he looks thin too (or at least compared to what I am used to) at the moment but it literally just took two weeks or so since we started working at a higher level and his turnout schedule changed for him to lose weight that quickly! Let's pray he puts it back on and as Dr O states there is no further loss from here on out.
Thanks everyone for your tips and advice. |
Corinne Meadows
Member
Username: corinne
Post Number: 1055
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, Jun 8, 2007 - 8:20 am: | |
Hello everyone. Went up early in the morning an hour after they were fed yesterday and rode for about 45 minutes. Afterwards he got his beetpulp and his soaked alfalfa and surprising I put some of him hay in the lower part of his feeder so he doesn't have to stretch as high (the taller horses are eye level with the feed) but he has to reach and he went to town. Do you think putting his hay in the lower portion of the turnout feeder (I know their normal digestion works with their head in the dependant position) and his grain in a pan on the floor he just might like the arrangement better and will eat more? |
Corinne Meadows
Member
Username: corinne
Post Number: 1056
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, Jun 8, 2007 - 8:21 am: | |
Sorry for the typos I have chronic dry eye in the morning and can't see the screen. |
Lilo
Member
Username: lilo
Post Number: 515
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Jun 8, 2007 - 12:16 pm: | |
I believe it is beneficial for horses to be fed at ground level, if possible, and there is no concern about ingesting sand. It mimics the grazing position. So the lower part of his feeder makes sense to me.
Lilo |
Cynthia G
Member
Username: cgby1
Post Number: 87
Registered: 5-2006
| | Posted on Friday, Jun 8, 2007 - 3:40 pm: | |
Hi Corinne, I do not like feeding out of hay racks and most horses prefer to eat with their head at chest level or lower. The hay in the racks can irritate the eyes and lungs. I have corner feeders that sit on the ground in my barn and I can still use the feed door. Cynthia |
Corinne Candice
Member
Username: corinne
Post Number: 1128
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, Aug 10, 2007 - 9:33 am: | |
Dr O. Demetrius has not been losing weight and is slowly gaining in spite of the heat so we are weaning off of some of his additives. First my trainer suggested taking him off his double feedings of beet pulp which he always eats first with the theory that he might be filling up on that instead of hay. He has been off for two days and so far his hay consumption has increased and there is less hay left in between feedings. He gets fed hay three times daily, 3 flks, and gets hay in turnout. He also gets 3lbs of Equine Senior (low carb and starch) 2x daily. He is finishing up his weight gainer and his fat supplement from smartpaks. We will then discontinue his multi vitamin and fat supplement to consolidate and add the weight gainer Amplify from Purina which has 30% fat from rice bran, flax seed and soy oil, is lower in starch and has balanced nutritional fortification and the addition of Omega 6 and 3 fatty acids. Others at the barn sware by it and there are no skinny horses there and all are only on hay and grain with an occasional supplement.
He is staying hydrated and is very alert and happy and is now a 5 on the body condition scale.
I think we are making progress and since there are vitamins in the Amplify no need to continue on the multi vit, and with the cessation of beet pulp and the other fat supplement it will be less out of pocket (which by the way did not affect my decision...we just want him to have the majority of his diet come from forage, primarily good quality hay, supplemented with 6 lbs of concentrate and one supplement of a pelleted weight gainer while he is being a hard keeper this summer). Oh and I almost forgot the alfalfa cubes I was trying to give after work outs he hated and we can't feed non bagged alfafa due to blister beetles so he was never really on that.
Corinne |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18989
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Friday, Aug 10, 2007 - 12:48 pm: | |
Glad to hear of the progress.
DrO |
