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Imogen Bertin
Member
Username: Imogen
Post Number: 470
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, Jan 12, 2004 - 3:10 am: |   |
Just wondered if this has happened to anyone else. I had to give 5 x 20 ml IM penicillin injections over the past three days. I have done this before and understand the basic techniques especially the importance of shaking the bottle until there is no sediment. I was using Norcillin which is a Norbrook laboratories product.
What I found with the last three injections was that I just physically could not push the syringe hard enough to get the last 5 ml in. Eventually the syringe would burst off the needle hub if I continued pushing at maximum strength.
Now, I was doing this by myself with a horse that is not fond of injections so I was doing it one-handed, holding the halter with one hand and working the syringe with the other.
I thought maybe the vet gave me a duff syringe so I found an old clean one and used that for the last injection but I had the same problem. I was wondering if maybe I didn't shake the bottle enough for the first two injections so there was too much sediment in the last three - but in fact this suspension was a lot less gloopy than others I have used, and also I did shake it loads...
Any tips for the future anyone? I feel sorry for the poor horse which now thinks I am going to stab her with a needle every time I go near her... fortunately her torture is over, at least this time!
Thanks
Imogen |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 9750
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Monday, Jan 12, 2004 - 6:34 am: | |
Imogen, I suspect a clump of penicllin was clogging the needle, but did you divide the injection into (2) 10 ml shots?
Next time this happens remove the syringe and aspirate some air back into the syringe, give the syringe a good shake, blow the air back out again, and finish the injection.
DrO |
Imogen Bertin
Member
Username: Imogen
Post Number: 471
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, Jan 12, 2004 - 11:57 am: | |
Oh whoops... I didn't know you were supposed to divide it up into two doses... how does this help stop the clogging?
Thanks for the tip about how to clear it. I just thought it was a bit strange that it happened just at the last 5 ml three times running?
All the best
Imogen |
Miss Lesley J. McCall
New Member
Username: Lesali
Post Number: 1
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, Jan 12, 2004 - 3:25 pm: | |
Hi Imogen,
It is a blocked needle due to sediment!
Just had the very same problem myself. It's difficult to see the sediment in the bottles until you are at least half used.The sediment in the last bottle I used was absolutely solid and I didn't notice how much was there until after the 3rd dose of 5 injections. It took about a full 10 mins of vigourous shaking to get it into suspension. Of course by then the concentration level was much higher than the previus injections, so my horse had been given 3 to 4 weak injections and one very concentrated one.
The last injection was very strong and in hindsight I wish I had diluted it with water. I did however split the dose into two injection sites to minimise dispersal pain in his neck.
The concentration made him very "off colour" for 24hrs and maybe I should have divided the last dose into 10mls and given the remainder the following day.
Does anyone know if it is OK to dilute the penicillin with tap water or does it have to be sterile water?
Regards,
Lesley |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose
Post Number: 154
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Monday, Jan 12, 2004 - 11:38 pm: | |
Don't dilute anything that goes into the horse (besides in his mouth, of course) with tap water! Always use sterile water or saline when medicating or when cleaning an eye, etc.
Ask Dr. O., but you might need to dilute an injection with saline. Also, you might get his advice on how to store stuff like penicillin and for how long it is o.k. to use. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 9753
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2004 - 6:25 am: | |
Hello Imogen, dividing the dose is not to prevent clogging but to help reduce soreness in the horse, for this and more on penicillin see, Equine Medications and Nutriceuticals » Antibiotics and Antimicrobials » Penicillin.
You should not dilute any injectable medication unless there are specific directions for doing so. Even sterile water may cause problems by changing the ratios of diluents or ph. Always follow instructions on the bottle for storage and observe expiration dates.
DrO |
Little King Ranch
Member
Username: Eoeo
Post Number: 16
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2004 - 9:44 am: | |
I thankfully don't have to use penicillin very often so it settles and glomps up quite abit. I have found the best thing is periodically, I take it out and let it warm for a half hour or so, it is still cool but when I shake it it breaks up the sediment easier. I then keep shaking it until it is completely mixed again. The trick is to do it when you aren't needing to use it immediately. I also let it warm a bit when I go to use it since it seems to bother the horses less when it is a warmed in the syringe. I don't let it get warm warm, just cool warm if that makes any sense. EO |
Sherry Wagar
Member
Username: Tlcstabl
Post Number: 18
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2004 - 11:02 am: | |
Keeping it in an "inside" pocket as you travel to the barn (for body warmth) will help too. It certainly won't go bad from the house to the barn and the time it takes you to get the horse ready. This will also help make it bit easier to inject as EO mentioned above.
Good luck,
Sherry |
Imogen Bertin
Member
Username: Imogen
Post Number: 473
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2004 - 11:21 am: | |
Thanks Dr O, the article on penicillin is very informative - but I am not sure I could have found enough places to inject if I had divided it up too! It was colder weather the last three days and I left the bottle in the tack room which probably explains why it clogged even though I had shaken it. Anyway, it appeared to have no effect which is not surprising given the problem, it was a "just in case it's an infection after all" course of antibiotics. By the way, here in Ireland you cannot get penicillin except on prescription from a vet. They are seriously thinking of doing the same with wormers too and already collect information on your address every time you buy a wormer.
All the best
Imogen |
Colleen Goolsby
Member
Username: Goolsby
Post Number: 88
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jan 14, 2004 - 2:43 pm: | |
Imogen
Do you know why authorities are concidering prescriptions for wormers? I cant imaging having to go to the vet everytime I wormed. Or even for pen. for that matter. What about tetanus vacs. and such? Just curious.
Colleen |
Imogen Bertin
Member
Username: Imogen
Post Number: 474
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 15, 2004 - 3:06 am: | |
Hi Colleen
Vaccinations for tetanus, flu etc. are all on vet prescription and are normally recorded in horse passports here - they have to be administered by a vet.
I rang the Irish Horse Board yesterday to find out what was happening about the microchipping/passports for all horses thing and they said "Ah yes. Nothing's been decided yet. We only have to issue our national instructions in June according to the EU directive. So don't worry about it until the summer..."
Regarding penicillin, the EU is (quite rightly in my view) extremely concerned about overuse of antibiotics and the development of resistance. In addition, as I explained, horses in overall European terms are considered a food item and therefore the issue of antibiotic residues which humans might consume is of concern even though we don't eat horses here...
By the way, I was utterly horrified recently to see documentaries arising some US states trying to attract Irish dairy farmers to emigrate about how cattle are raised in the US and the level of drugs which are administered to them. I would simply not eat meat at all if I ever visited your country... I am sure it tastes great but - yeeuch - and also I think a lot of the overcrowded housing methods appear quite cruel (I don't like the way some cattle are housed on concrete slats or knee-deep muddy yards over here in winter either).
On wormers, again, there is considerable concern about what would happen if widespread ivermectin resistance began to be a problem. They haven't done it yet but they are definitely thinking about it (stopping general sale of wormers in farm stores, tack shops etc). The issue here is that ivermectin is used in cattle etc. so while the use in horses is pretty tiny compared to cattle, because the same drugs are concerned any controls would be bound to extend to horses.
All the best
Imogen |
Colleen Goolsby
Member
Username: Goolsby
Post Number: 90
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 15, 2004 - 8:26 am: | |
Imogen
Thanks for all the information. It sounds as though compared to european countries the U.S. is pretty relaxed on restrictions concerning livestock. Personally, I hope we stay that way concerning private pet ownership. I like being able to go to my county farmers co-op and get all the vac. and wormers I need. The only thing I have to have the vet do is coggins and rabies. I was even permitted to pick up the West Niles booster and administer it myself.
As for Penicillin and other equine products, our restrictions are a note on the label "not intended for use in food animals". It does seem odd to me that I can get antibiotics for my horses at the tack shop but have to go to a vet to get them for my dogs.
Although I know next to nothing about the US cattle industry, I think they are probably underregulated as well as the processing plants. I do eat meat, I just try not to think about all that happens before it gets to my plate.
Thanks again for the information. It is interesting to see how differently things are done in different parts of the world.
Colleen
|
Imogen Bertin
Member
Username: Imogen
Post Number: 483
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 22, 2004 - 2:34 am: | |
Oh dear. As I started this thread, can I stop it now? Or could Dr O shift part of it into the political biases and obsessions section he created last time Iraq crept onto this board?
As I said then, no-one is going to have their view changed by this type of discussion - all that happens is people get upset because they discover that despite their common interest in horses, their views on how the world should be run are incompatible.
I do think there is a connection between Colleen's question about rules on antibiotic use in different countries and the issue of large food manufacture corporations using their influence to keep information about antibiotic use out of the public eye. I don't think there's much connection with poor Dr Kelly and so on.
All the best
Imogen |
Colleen Goolsby
Member
Username: Goolsby
Post Number: 95
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 22, 2004 - 8:39 am: | |
Imogen
We sure opened a can of worms with the anitbiotic issue. You are right that this discussion should be continued elsewhere. Do keep us posted on the microchipping once it is implemented and how it affects the average horse owner. Although I believe this was discussed on a different topic also.
Colleen |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 9808
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 22, 2004 - 8:51 am: | |
I think you are right Imogen. While centering on the effect laws have on caring for your horses this was fine but it has got a bit out of hand and I am as guilty as any. If you are interested you will find this discussion moved to Inspiration, Art, Entertainment » Politics » The News Media: how accurate is it?. I will move this into this section. Note: by going to your profile you can either include or exclude this section from your email alerts.
DrO |
