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joann mitcham
Member
Username: joann
Post Number: 41
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Monday, Jul 9, 2007 - 1:23 pm: |   |
Hi, have a mare who hates shots. She hates the twitch too. Tried backing her up to stall wall, tried treat feeding to distract her, even showed her the shot and worked with getting her comfortable. I'm at a loss here. Read the Ethyl Chloride recommendation but I don't think it is a pain thing. She just fights it. I was told Ace came in a paste or pill - is this true Dr. O. If so, does it work well enough to give the shots. I'm doing a 6 way and WN so its really going to be 2 shots. Any help please and I don't mind calling the vet, I just paid for the vaccines already and he doesn't want to use them. Joann |
Diane Edmonds
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 1098
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Monday, Jul 9, 2007 - 3:05 pm: | |
Hi Joann, My gelding Sam was like that for years, one year he didn't get shots he was so bad. A twitch made no difference. I also tried the ace granules....didn't work. I taught him what a stud chain was AND that worked, along with covering the eye on the side the shot was being given. The first year I had to remind him of what the chain was. The 2nd year all I had to do was put it on...didn't need to "remind" him. Now he stands for shots very well with nothing...but I always have the chain nearby where he can see it.
Hank was also bad about shots, but just covering his eye and acting normally cured him. |
joann mitcham
Member
Username: joann
Post Number: 42
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Monday, Jul 9, 2007 - 3:08 pm: | |
Thanks Diane I will wait to see what other responses I get then try them all. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18811
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Monday, Jul 9, 2007 - 6:19 pm: | |
Hello joann m,
Let's see, acepromazine though an off label use, can be used orally even the injectable formulation is usable. Because this is an off label use you need the approval and supervision of your veterinarian. You can read about this in the article and other's experiences with oral ace at, Treatments and Medications for Horses » Sedatives & Anesthetics » Acepromazine.
I use a lip chain regularly when I need to give an injection and there is no time to retrain a horse that will not stand still for an injection. When used appropriately it is very effective and can make a great training tool in the right hands, use of a lip chain is explained at, Training & Conditioning Horses » Behavioral Problems » Aggression in Horses.
When there is time and you wish to approach this in a positive manner you cannot beat the techniques discussed at Training & Conditioning Horses » Behavioral Problems » Behavior Modification, Conditioning, Desensitization, and Counterconditioning.
DrO |
jane hyndman
Member
Username: janeh
Post Number: 7
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jul 10, 2007 - 11:51 am: | |
My mare used to behave very badly whenever she required any form of medical attention. The solution I found was to clicker train her. Now she seems to understand, and no longer fights receiving injections or other procedures. It has made life much easier for us both!
Clicker training was very easy. I used a jolly ball, and held it out by her nose. When she touched the ball, I said 'bing', and gave her a carrot. In no time at all, I could hold the ball anywhere, she would seek it out and touch it with her nose. I would say 'bing', and give her a carrot. Then I moved on to other things she doesn't like such as touching her ears or worming her. The vet now has no problems. I ask the vet to hold the syringe sideways against the mare's neck. Then I say 'bing' and give her a carrot. The vet gives the injection, I say 'bing' and the mare gets another carrot. It really is that easy. Good luck. / Jane |
Linda Lashley
Member
Username: lhenning
Post Number: 257
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jul 10, 2007 - 1:07 pm: | |
Hi Joann,
I have also used clicker training for this type of training. Very effective.
Check out http://www.clickertraining.com/
Good luck,
Linda |
Shirley Johnson
Member
Username: shirl
Post Number: 500
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jul 10, 2007 - 1:46 pm: | |
Joann,
Somewhere, and I don't recall where, but I read someone used an empty wormer syringe that had been cleaned, and would touch the tip to the area of shot administration, give a treat, press harder, give another treat, etc., etc. so the horse associated those feelings with a treat. I've never tried it as haven't had the need to - yet.
Shirl |
Ilona A
Member
Username: ilona
Post Number: 628
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jul 10, 2007 - 2:16 pm: | |
Ditto with Shirley,
I also rub the area over a period of time, once day over week or so, during grooming time, giving treats (not excessive) and have the syringe in my hand facing up (no needle) increments of pressure. So they are accustomed to seeing the syringe, having pressure with nothing irksome happening. Then on D day, rub, shot treat, no big deal.
My one horse was almost dangerous at shot time, and now couldn't care less. Mind you I do repeat this process intermittently through the year so that it is somewhat consistently reinforced for the next needed shot...never know when that is going to be. |
Chris Doyle
Member
Username: christel
Post Number: 287
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jul 11, 2007 - 10:31 am: | |
Hi Joann, I have had my share of needle shy horses and know how frustrating it can be. I have read the article DrO mentions above- I hope you read it too. In the article it is mentioned that saying to the horse- good boy or what ever you say to praise the horse works as well as the clicker and leaves your hands free- maybe to do a little pat and rub 
I have never understood the clicker trainings popularity- what happens if you get in a situation and dont have your clicker- would one still have a trained horse? Seems to be a bunch of hulla baloo to me- I like keeping things simple.
How is it going with your horse?
Chris
One of my older mares is very needle shy- she responds to my words -which cannot be posted, she straightens right up when I start dishing out the cuss words-lol. I think its a game with her, I imagine her secretly laughing and thinking- yep, I can still get you riled up. |
Linda Lashley
Member
Username: lhenning
Post Number: 259
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jul 11, 2007 - 1:42 pm: | |
I always use verbal language when clicker training. You don't have to use a clicker, it just helps mark the behavior better than words. Words still work though. What you need to do is first train the horse that "good boy" means a treat is coming. That way, you mark the behavior at the exact moment it happens and give the treat when you are able to do so. Teaching the horse to point it's nose at an object, using the cue "touch it", is a good way to begin training clicker. The animal learns they control the treat by giving the desired behavior. It really does work, even though the method has been commercialized. It is fun to watch the gears in their minds going full speed as they figure out how to get that treat again. I find it most useful when I want to teach my horse something he would rather not do, such as picking up his hoof or clipping his ears. It gives them incentive, but also makes the desired behavior very easy for them to figure out. The key is clicking (or saying "good boy") at the EXACT moment the right behavior happens.
First, teach the click means treat is coming. Then, using the example above, use a wormer syringe and begin bringing it near the horse. Click/treat at the closest point the horse allows it near them. Slowly work toward touching them with it, click, remove syringe, give treat. It won't take long for the horse to see standing still and allowing the syringe to touch means the click is coming and a treat comes next. That horse will soon start bringing it's neck toward the syringe, just to make the click happen.
You need to keep upping the request when the horse learns each step. The final step will be using the click/ treat when the vet is standing near the horse, working up to having the vet touch her neck and then giving the shot. When the shot is given, click and give a big handful of treats and really make it worthwhile to behave.
With horses, we always have the problem of them getting muggy when we give them treats, so it is important to lay firm foundations of where their heads must be to get the treat and to never give them treats while they are doing any bad behavior.
Linda |
joann mitcham
Member
Username: joann
Post Number: 43
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jul 11, 2007 - 3:25 pm: | |
Hi everyone: Thanks for all the info and I've digested alot of it but here is the latest. I called the vet to purchase the ace and he advised to give it to her orally 3cc's and wait 45 minutes to see if she relaxes. If not, its okay to give 3cc more. If this works I'm gong to give the shots. If not, I guess I'll have the vet up - the problem is he will not use the vaccines I purchased (from a reliable) place. I'm also reading up per Dr. O on behaviors, etc. So, I will let everyone know how this goes after Saturday. Joann |
joann mitcham
Member
Username: joann
Post Number: 44
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Friday, Jul 27, 2007 - 11:21 am: | |
hi, sorry to get back so late but just able to get the "shot" thing done. The 3cc's of Ace turned into 3 more cc's given orally. Nothing took effect and I didn't really want to give her more. I had my friend help me and I was able to get the shot in the yellow area on Dr. O's diagram while she was hand feeding treats. It's done, so I hope it works. Her neck was so tense I'm sure it would have broke the needle. It took over an hour. Later, she appeared to be walking a little on the drunk side so I did some trailer loading with her and she seemed so unaffected by the drugs. Not sure about the oral dose of Ace but got the shots done. Thanks all for the suggestions. jo |
Corinne Candice
Member
Username: corinne
Post Number: 1112
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, Jul 28, 2007 - 6:49 am: | |
This might sound silly for some but after years of giving injections to toddlers...something that really is traumatic for them, I would use a topical Emla cream because if I can avoid pain I ALWAYS do. You can only get it with prescription except in Canada where it is OTC so when I decided Demetrius was really upset with repeated IM injections as in the case of antibiotic courses after injuries, I improvised and used Ambesol first and once the skin is numb to touch he tolerated the injections well. For some reason he doesn't mind phlebotomy from the jugular but repeated IM's....as we say in NJ forgetta a bout it. I know training is key and every horse should be able to tolerate an injection because you won't have a numbing topical in all cases but if you have the choice and can avoid pain why not?
Corinne |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose
Post Number: 2984
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, Jul 28, 2007 - 9:25 am: | |
Great idea, Corinne. I didn't know Ambusol worked that good. When I used to work in a dental office, I used to get the topical anesthetic the dentist used and use it for all kinds of things with the horses and other animals. I even used it on the kids for bad bug bites. |
