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joann mitcham
Member
Username: joann
Post Number: 41
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Monday, Jul 9, 2007 - 1:23 pm: |   |
Hi, have a mare who hates shots. She hates the twitch too. Tried backing her up to stall wall, tried treat feeding to distract her, even showed her the shot and worked with getting her comfortable. I'm at a loss here. Read the Ethyl Chloride recommendation but I don't think it is a pain thing. She just fights it. I was told Ace came in a paste or pill - is this true Dr. O. If so, does it work well enough to give the shots. I'm doing a 6 way and WN so its really going to be 2 shots. Any help please and I don't mind calling the vet, I just paid for the vaccines already and he doesn't want to use them. Joann |
Diane Edmonds
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 1098
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Monday, Jul 9, 2007 - 3:05 pm: | |
Hi Joann, My gelding Sam was like that for years, one year he didn't get shots he was so bad. A twitch made no difference. I also tried the ace granules....didn't work. I taught him what a stud chain was AND that worked, along with covering the eye on the side the shot was being given. The first year I had to remind him of what the chain was. The 2nd year all I had to do was put it on...didn't need to "remind" him. Now he stands for shots very well with nothing...but I always have the chain nearby where he can see it.
Hank was also bad about shots, but just covering his eye and acting normally cured him. |
joann mitcham
Member
Username: joann
Post Number: 42
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Monday, Jul 9, 2007 - 3:08 pm: | |
Thanks Diane I will wait to see what other responses I get then try them all. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18811
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Monday, Jul 9, 2007 - 6:19 pm: | |
Hello joann m,
Let's see, acepromazine though an off label use, can be used orally even the injectable formulation is usable. Because this is an off label use you need the approval and supervision of your veterinarian. You can read about this in the article and other's experiences with oral ace at, Treatments and Medications for Horses » Sedatives & Anesthetics » Acepromazine.
I use a lip chain regularly when I need to give an injection and there is no time to retrain a horse that will not stand still for an injection. When used appropriately it is very effective and can make a great training tool in the right hands, use of a lip chain is explained at, Training & Conditioning Horses » Behavioral Problems » Aggression in Horses.
When there is time and you wish to approach this in a positive manner you cannot beat the techniques discussed at Training & Conditioning Horses » Behavioral Problems » Behavior Modification, Conditioning, Desensitization, and Counterconditioning.
DrO |
jane hyndman
Member
Username: janeh
Post Number: 7
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jul 10, 2007 - 11:51 am: | |
My mare used to behave very badly whenever she required any form of medical attention. The solution I found was to clicker train her. Now she seems to understand, and no longer fights receiving injections or other procedures. It has made life much easier for us both!
Clicker training was very easy. I used a jolly ball, and held it out by her nose. When she touched the ball, I said 'bing', and gave her a carrot. In no time at all, I could hold the ball anywhere, she would seek it out and touch it with her nose. I would say 'bing', and give her a carrot. Then I moved on to other things she doesn't like such as touching her ears or worming her. The vet now has no problems. I ask the vet to hold the syringe sideways against the mare's neck. Then I say 'bing' and give her a carrot. The vet gives the injection, I say 'bing' and the mare gets another carrot. It really is that easy. Good luck. / Jane |
Linda Lashley
Member
Username: lhenning
Post Number: 257
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jul 10, 2007 - 1:07 pm: | |
Hi Joann,
I have also used clicker training for this type of training. Very effective.
Check out http://www.clickertraining.com/
Good luck,
Linda |
Shirley Johnson
Member
Username: shirl
Post Number: 500
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jul 10, 2007 - 1:46 pm: | |
Joann,
Somewhere, and I don't recall where, but I read someone used an empty wormer syringe that had been cleaned, and would touch the tip to the area of shot administration, give a treat, press harder, give another treat, etc., etc. so the horse associated those feelings with a treat. I've never tried it as haven't had the need to - yet.
Shirl |
Ilona A
Member
Username: ilona
Post Number: 628
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jul 10, 2007 - 2:16 pm: | |
Ditto with Shirley,
I also rub the area over a period of time, once day over week or so, during grooming time, giving treats (not excessive) and have the syringe in my hand facing up (no needle) increments of pressure. So they are accustomed to seeing the syringe, having pressure with nothing irksome happening. Then on D day, rub, shot treat, no big deal.
My one horse was almost dangerous at shot time, and now couldn't care less. Mind you I do repeat this process intermittently through the year so that it is somewhat consistently reinforced for the next needed shot...never know when that is going to be. |
Chris Doyle
Member
Username: christel
Post Number: 287
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jul 11, 2007 - 10:31 am: | |
Hi Joann, I have had my share of needle shy horses and know how frustrating it can be. I have read the article DrO mentions above- I hope you read it too. In the article it is mentioned that saying to the horse- good boy or what ever you say to praise the horse works as well as the clicker and leaves your hands free- maybe to do a little pat and rub 
I have never understood the clicker trainings popularity- what happens if you get in a situation and dont have your clicker- would one still have a trained horse? Seems to be a bunch of hulla baloo to me- I like keeping things simple.
How is it going with your horse?
Chris
One of my older mares is very needle shy- she responds to my words -which cannot be posted, she straightens right up when I start dishing out the cuss words-lol. I think its a game with her, I imagine her secretly laughing and thinking- yep, I can still get you riled up. |
Linda Lashley
Member
Username: lhenning
Post Number: 259
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jul 11, 2007 - 1:42 pm: | |
I always use verbal language when clicker training. You don't have to use a clicker, it just helps mark the behavior better than words. Words still work though. What you need to do is first train the horse that "good boy" means a treat is coming. That way, you mark the behavior at the exact moment it happens and give the treat when you are able to do so. Teaching the horse to point it's nose at an object, using the cue "touch it", is a good way to begin training clicker. The animal learns they control the treat by giving the desired behavior. It really does work, even though the method has been commercialized. It is fun to watch the gears in their minds going full speed as they figure out how to get that treat again. I find it most useful when I want to teach my horse something he would rather not do, such as picking up his hoof or clipping his ears. It gives them incentive, but also makes the desired behavior very easy for them to figure out. The key is clicking (or saying "good boy") at the EXACT moment the right behavior happens.
First, teach the click means treat is coming. Then, using the example above, use a wormer syringe and begin bringing it near the horse. Click/treat at the closest point the horse allows it near them. Slowly work toward touching them with it, click, remove syringe, give treat. It won't take long for the horse to see standing still and allowing the syringe to touch means the click is coming and a treat comes next. That horse will soon start bringing it's neck toward the syringe, just to make the click happen.
You need to keep upping the request when the horse learns each step. The final step will be using the click/ treat when the vet is standing near the horse, working up to having the vet touch her neck and then giving the shot. When the shot is given, click and give a big handful of treats and really make it worthwhile to behave.
With horses, we always have the problem of them getting muggy when we give them treats, so it is important to lay firm foundations of where their heads must be to get the treat and to never give them treats while they are doing any bad behavior.
Linda |
joann mitcham
Member
Username: joann
Post Number: 43
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jul 11, 2007 - 3:25 pm: | |
Hi everyone: Thanks for all the info and I've digested alot of it but here is the latest. I called the vet to purchase the ace and he advised to give it to her orally 3cc's and wait 45 minutes to see if she relaxes. If not, its okay to give 3cc more. If this works I'm gong to give the shots. If not, I guess I'll have the vet up - the problem is he will not use the vaccines I purchased (from a reliable) place. I'm also reading up per Dr. O on behaviors, etc. So, I will let everyone know how this goes after Saturday. Joann |
joann mitcham
Member
Username: joann
Post Number: 44
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Friday, Jul 27, 2007 - 11:21 am: | |
hi, sorry to get back so late but just able to get the "shot" thing done. The 3cc's of Ace turned into 3 more cc's given orally. Nothing took effect and I didn't really want to give her more. I had my friend help me and I was able to get the shot in the yellow area on Dr. O's diagram while she was hand feeding treats. It's done, so I hope it works. Her neck was so tense I'm sure it would have broke the needle. It took over an hour. Later, she appeared to be walking a little on the drunk side so I did some trailer loading with her and she seemed so unaffected by the drugs. Not sure about the oral dose of Ace but got the shots done. Thanks all for the suggestions. jo |
Corinne Candice
Member
Username: corinne
Post Number: 1112
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, Jul 28, 2007 - 6:49 am: | |
This might sound silly for some but after years of giving injections to toddlers...something that really is traumatic for them, I would use a topical Emla cream because if I can avoid pain I ALWAYS do. You can only get it with prescription except in Canada where it is OTC so when I decided Demetrius was really upset with repeated IM injections as in the case of antibiotic courses after injuries, I improvised and used Ambesol first and once the skin is numb to touch he tolerated the injections well. For some reason he doesn't mind phlebotomy from the jugular but repeated IM's....as we say in NJ forgetta a bout it. I know training is key and every horse should be able to tolerate an injection because you won't have a numbing topical in all cases but if you have the choice and can avoid pain why not?
Corinne |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose
Post Number: 2984
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, Jul 28, 2007 - 9:25 am: | |
Great idea, Corinne. I didn't know Ambusol worked that good. When I used to work in a dental office, I used to get the topical anesthetic the dentist used and use it for all kinds of things with the horses and other animals. I even used it on the kids for bad bug bites. |
PattyB
New Member
Username: pattyb
Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, Nov 20, 2008 - 11:44 am: | |
Hello and good morning from the newbie on the block.
I've been reading HorseAdvice.com for some time now and have been greatly impressed.....so much so that I joined this morning looking for help...HELP!
I have a 5 year old Arab/Paint that is just horrible for shots. Twitching him worked this morning and last time but I can see, he's getting wise to it so I dread the next time.
This morning, my vet came out to draw blood to look for insulin resistance and any other tests that may help explain my horse's mood swings, weight gain and slightly elevated peeing habits. I had put him on Quiessence about a month ago to give it a try for calming and right now, it's to soon to tell if it will help...but at best it shouldn't hurt him.
Anyway, I'm at a loss, we've tried backing and twitching and at this point, I need a plan for next time...like Spring shots. I really had my hopes up that there is something I could give him before the vet got here that would give us more control over the situation. Fighting him only seems to make matters worse and I fear the twitching will make him nose shy.
This horse does fine for the farrier, grumpy for saddling but just horrible for shots.....any chance there are any fresh ideas to add to this discussion that might help.......like oral valium, whiskey..... or lol brandy? I'm so at a loss what to do to be prepared for next time. I have to outsmart him, not over power him. |
Rachelle E. Morris
Member
Username: rtrotter
Post Number: 82
Registered: 4-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, Nov 20, 2008 - 2:34 pm: | |
Patty,
One would think that such a tiny little needle would mean nothing to a 1000+ lb horse, but look at what flies do to the same animal.
Here are some tricks that I have used. Switch sides. Most vets give shots on the horses left side, try doing it on the other side. My vet ( with new or young horses) takes his fist and hits the horse (lightly in the area where the shot is injected) as if he is giving the shot and then after 4 or 5 times, just hits them with the shot, he is so quick the shots are over with before the horse even knows he's gotten it. I have used a blanket clamp under a horses chin, and on his nose (easier than a twitch), and I have used a chain under the lip (releases endorphins and calms the horse down).
I would start desensitizing him to the shots, by using the fist method with no needle ( maybe a little pinch). I also know that sometimes it is the anticipation (and preparation, alcohol swab) of giving the shot that gets both horses and their owners nervous. I give shots with no prep because I feel ( whether wrong or right) that all I am doing is spreading around whatever is on the skin or hair and making my horses anticipate getting stuck with a needle. I also use a hood or cover their eyes, so they can't see what I am doing. Maybe I have been lucky, but none of my horses have gotten an infection from a vaccine shot
Rachelle |
Shirley Johnson
Member
Username: shirl
Post Number: 634
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Nov 20, 2008 - 2:50 pm: | |
Patty,
Among all the other ideas I'll add mine. You might try giving him a dropper full of Rescue Remedy every 15 minutes for an hour before shot time. It is a natural calmer, not expensive and very easy to slip in their lips. That together with some of the other ideas might help tremendously.
Good luck
Shirl |
leslie christian
Member
Username: leslie1
Post Number: 451
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, Nov 20, 2008 - 4:01 pm: | |
Hi
Why not have vet give him a little bit o' Ace before injections.
L |
Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 3186
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Nov 20, 2008 - 5:03 pm: | |
Hi Patty my arab gelding was the same...we tried everything! He went right through the twitch, tried oral ace...didn't work. Nothing seemed to work, one year he had to go without his spring shots, because he wouldn't hold still. I dreaded them every year, otherwise he is a well behaved
What worked for him was a chain over the nose, before any shots were given I had to teach him what it was. Finally when spring shot day came I put the chain on and didn't even need it! For 2 yrs. I would put the chain over his nose at vaccination time, but didn't really need it. Since then he has been fine with out it.
I just noticed this is an old thread and already put my 2 cents in above . It did work tho! |
Jo Ann Widner
Member
Username: jowidner
Post Number: 291
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Nov 20, 2008 - 6:30 pm: | |
Patty, Our mare used to get so tense while getting a shot it was hard to get the needle into the muscle. After all kinds of attempts to restrain her we tried simply feeding her grain while she got the shot and it worked great. Duh, so simple. It may not work for every horse, but it certainly works for her. |
Angie J.
Member
Username: ajudson1
Post Number: 2133
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Nov 20, 2008 - 6:47 pm: | |
My 19 year old Arab mare used to be horrible with shots. Couldn't get close to her for doing them in the neck, if I put the needle in her rump, she'd kick out and get ornery.
I found that I was the one that needed training, I would be shaking with nervous fear trying to get close to her!
I also rigged up a device like the STABILIZER, which you can find online if you google it. I think I used clothes line rope, with some hooks on it; you could also use a chain under his lip, and hook in on his halter to get the right amount of tension. The while she was relaxed, I pretended to give a shot in her neck muscles, and played around until she relaxed without the line under the lip.
I would do all I could do over the winter months to regain his trust, and get him to accept getting the shots. Right now it is a horrible experience for him, and using restraints will work, but it's a temp fix, and you haven't trained him not to fear the needle. Spend time pinching him where the needle will go in his neck for example. Don't make a big deal of it, pinch, groom, pinch, talk, groom, move on. |
Ann
Member
Username: dres
Post Number: 2065
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Nov 20, 2008 - 6:51 pm: | |
I have a old ancient trick in giving shots.. get the fattest carrots you can find.. hold it tight in your hand and let them take small bites of it while your partner gives the shot.. the horse does not know what happened they are intent on that fat carrot..
ON the first day God created horses , on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
PattyB
New Member
Username: pattyb
Post Number: 4
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, Nov 20, 2008 - 7:20 pm: | |
Your ideas are giving me options and are greatly appreciated, please keep them coming.
I really stressed out about this last night and made a point not to enter the picture with food until they had gotten the fasting blood samples they needed. Hopefully, we won't have to do any more fasting tests and I can try the grain/carrot/chain over nose approach.
The more I read about insulin resistance, the more I swear that is playing into this scenario somehow. I'm afraid to approach this aggressively until I know the results of the insulin tests, just incase it's aggravating the problem and better approached by getting him well first. I know some people lol who are horrible to be around when they don't feel well...that's a real bad time to have a discussion about attitude. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 21791
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Nov 20, 2008 - 8:20 pm: | |
Welcome PattyB,
For injection resistant horses I use the training techniques discussed at Training & Conditioning Horses » Behavioral Problems » Behavior Modification, Conditioning, Desensitization, and Counterconditioning. It has never failed me.
DrO |
PattyB
New Member
Username: pattyb
Post Number: 5
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, Nov 20, 2008 - 9:49 pm: | |
Thank you Dr.O.......I went right to the discussion that used paste worming as an example, the aspect of positive training has always been my preferred approach yet the guys tend to gang up on me and want faster results.....the old make'em do it. Once I know the test results, perhaps I could start using the sweet feed approach and maybe start out with tiny needles, the goal being to work my way up to larger ones?
This horse is one that sometimes it is better to poo poo his reaction to things and the fact that you ignored him sometimes gets the results I want. I tell him to stop buffaloing me, like he's trying to get an angry or timid response and instead, he gets no response at all...lol. I guess I'm just upset right now and feel somewhat powerless until I find there are no medical issues setting him off. If there is a medical issue, I'll have to adjust my approach accordingly.
Thanks for your reply DR.O, I was hoping you would rejoin this topic to help a newcomer. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 21793
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Friday, Nov 21, 2008 - 7:07 am: | |
Patty,
You are welcome.
In general it is best to start a new discussion when you are posting questions about your own horse rather than interrupting someone else's discussion about their horse. Each discussion is "owned" by the person who started it and by keeping each discussion confined to the original posters discussion Horseadvice stays better organized and you will get more and quicker responses. I often give newbies a break on this but after a few postings and a few reminders postings will start getting deleted. For more on this and many other aspects of making your membership as useful as possible see Help & Information on Using This Site » Welcome to The Horseman's Advisor.
DrO |
PattyB
Member
Username: pattyb
Post Number: 6
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Friday, Nov 21, 2008 - 10:01 am: | |
Oh dear, please forgive me Dr.O and Joann, I did kind of jump right in during the chaos of the day yesterday without reading the bylaws....sorry. As soon as I start getting the blood work results, some of it today, I'll come back as a new discussion. |
LL
Member
Username: frances
Post Number: 744
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, Nov 21, 2008 - 1:59 pm: | |
Poor Patty! Don't feel bad - everyone does this at first before they get the hang of things. |
Jerre R
Member
Username: jerre
Post Number: 281
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, Nov 22, 2008 - 1:23 pm: | |
I have to concur with the lip chain -- despite my otherwise staunch commitment to natural horsemanship.
My very reactive filly has had HOURS of desensitisation to the needle, and I can get an IM done with only moderate distress. However, a blood draw or IV (I think because it has to be so precise and takes a few moments longer) is terrible for her.
My vet is skilled at the lip chain and it is just enough of a reminder that we can get the IV done. It's usually for tranq for teeth floating and she's in her "happy place" a few moments later.
I'm not giving up on getting her to accept a needle, but this filly has been extremely skeptical of objects and people in her personal space since she was born (despite imprinting!)
I realized that is is less traumatic to use a skillfully applied lip chain, and my vet, while very patient, doesn't have time to work through 20-30 minutes until she "may" stand still enough.
My other horse, the filly's mom, stands at liberty for any kind of procedure.
Jerre |
Rachelle E. Morris
Member
Username: rtrotter
Post Number: 87
Registered: 4-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, Nov 22, 2008 - 3:14 pm: | |
Ok, I need someone to explain this tranquilizing business for getting teeth floated. I have been in the horse business for 30 + years and dealt with some extremely high strung horses but I have never had to TQ a horse to have their teeth floated and that includes pulling wolf teeth and removing loose caps! In most cases the horses seem to enjoy it after they figure out that what the Equine Dentist is doing doesn't really hurt.
I have never seen my equine dentist use any type of force at all to get the horses to comply. They are all done in their stalls, no crossties,just a leadshank on their halters and if needed( very infrequently) backed into a stall corner under the control of the dentist. I never have to handle the horses and the dentist seemed to get along with all of them.
Even young horses that have never had their teeth done don't seem to have any kind of problem.
Maybe I've just been lucky!
Rachelle |
Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 3199
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, Nov 22, 2008 - 7:00 pm: | |
Rachelle, are your horses power floated? Mine can be done manually without traq...BUT if they would move or spook I imagine some major damage could be done inside the mouth causing pain and possibly infection. I have mine tranqed for that reason.....especially power floating. |
Rachelle E. Morris
Member
Username: rtrotter
Post Number: 88
Registered: 4-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, Nov 22, 2008 - 8:00 pm: | |
Diane,
Mine have never been powerfloated. They have all been done manually. I have never gotten an infection from being done manually, however I do request the dentist to change the disinfectant water if he has done any other clients horses, its the same reason each of my own horses has their own equipment and they never share bits and bridles even if two horses wear the same type of equipment. Enough things go wrong as it is why take a chance.
What does the powerfloater do that doing it manually does not accomplish, other than scaring the bejeebers out of the horses and making it easier on the dentist?
It takes my dentist 10-15 minutes per horse and he does a great job. With racehorses care of their teeth is very important because sores in their mouths, loose caps and wolfteeth can make a horse unsteerable and create bad habits like not wanting to put their bridles on by raising their heads to get away from the bit because their mouth is sore.
My older horses are done twice a year and the younger ones are done between 3 and 6 times a year depending on when the are in the process of losing their caps and how sharp their teeth are underneath those caps.
Rachelle |
PattyB
Member
Username: pattyb
Post Number: 11
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, Nov 22, 2008 - 10:00 pm: | |
Ahem......whispering "thank you LL." |
Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 3202
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, Nov 23, 2008 - 7:38 am: | |
Rachelle all I know is what my vet (equine dentist) told me. He said he was more likely to "jab" the cheeks while doing it manually. He also said he thinks he can do a better job with the power tools.
He always looks at their teeth in the spring and for the most part usually says they are ok.
Sam my 22yo gelding has never needed floating.
Hank has only been done twice.
And the old mare seems to need it every 2-3 yrs. She tells me by holding grass in her cheeks...which usually means her teeth are scraping her cheeks and making them sore.
This last time I asked the vet if it was wise to tranq such an old horse and he said he could do a much better job power floating her, so we did. Her quidding stopped the next day. I hate tranqing horses, but I guess it is necessary sometimes. |
Rachelle E. Morris
Member
Username: rtrotter
Post Number: 90
Registered: 4-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, Nov 23, 2008 - 8:14 am: | |
Diane,
If you don't mind sharing, how much does your vet(equine dentist) charge for tranquilizing and power floating your horses teeth?
Oh, and I do not think my vet even carries a set of floating tools, there are quite a few good equine dentists that do this every day. I have asked him and tells me to call my regular equine dentist because the dentist does a better job then he does.
My equine dentist checks for sore spots before and after he does their teeth and shows me what's in there before he gets started. Usually he comes when I think there is any hint of a problem with their mouths.
I guess my take on this is if your horses can be done manually with no TQ then why add the extra risk by medicating them. Also, I would think that the power float would cause more damage if the vet's hand happened to move in the wrong direction.
Just my thoughts and opinions. Everybody has their own.
Rachelle |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 21811
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Sunday, Nov 23, 2008 - 9:30 am: | |
JerreR, if you have failed after hours of desensitization it suggests you are not communicating effectively with the horse. Review the article I reference above which is really about operant conditioning and not desensitization. I do agree however that the quickest way to get a horse's attention in very adverse situations is the lip chain.
Concerning the use of tranquilizers for floating and the method of floating. I find as I age and particularly with a recent shoulder injury I tranquilize more often but most of my patients do just fine without it. In my young days tranquilization was only rarely needed. I strongly believe that motorized floats for routine procedure is hard to justify. On the other hand for severe pathology of the teeth that requires removing a substantial amount of the body of the tooth, it is irreplaceable. There is more on all this in the article on Floating.
DrO |
Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 3203
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, Nov 23, 2008 - 10:03 am: | |
He charges way too much . I just had the mares power floated and it was $180
$45 for the call out
$40 for tranq...which I thought seemed like a lot, I even called and asked him if he injected her with gold! He said the price of whatever he used (can't remember) had gone up quite a bit.
So I suppose for the floating itself it was $95. She had quite a few points and a couple hooks...he showed them to me. He said he would do a much better job with the power float and wasn't even sure he could get them smooth manually. (I asked) He showed me them after wards and it was a huge difference.
2 years ago when I had her done it was $110! |
Ann
Member
Username: dres
Post Number: 2070
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, Nov 23, 2008 - 10:35 am: | |
golly Diane, only $40 for the tranq? My horses take a dose of $80.00 for their teeth/ ultrasounds / etc..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots. |
Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 3204
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, Nov 23, 2008 - 10:52 am: | |
Ann that's what you get for owning those BIG horses...ponies are much cheaper and he lightly tranqed her, it doesn't take much for her or Hank, but the arab gelding (the lightest) of them weight wise takes triple what they do. Go figure! |
Jerre R
Member
Username: jerre
Post Number: 282
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, Nov 23, 2008 - 12:57 pm: | |
DrO, there's no question I'm not completely effective with this horse!
I've had help from the best folks around and we've overcome the same issue with hoof trimming, clipping (even ears), deworming, teat cleaning, all kinds of objects -- needles remain a challenge, although the situation is much improved.
I take some comfort in the educated opinion of the people I have to help me, who say this horse is extreme in her reactions to intimate contact.
And there's no doubt that she has intimidated me in the past.
I've reread the article and am using the techniques to the best of my understanding.
Another vet in the area is somewhat more effective with her, but my vet is the best medically. It's just not a great match with his stall-side manner. He's also near 60, so is not interested in any kind of struggle.
Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread. I just wanted to point out that the quickest, quietest and least traumatic solution for this horse has been the lip chain.
Jerre |
Lee
Member
Username: paul303
Post Number: 1208
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Monday, Nov 24, 2008 - 12:53 am: | |
I have 3 mares: two QH and one App. One of the QH mares has a lot of TB in her background. On her, the lip chain is a mercy. I found, long ago, that applying the lip chain seemed to relax her and she will almost doze as the vet does whatever needs to be done. As for the other two mares.....lighting a firecracker under them would get little or no reaction. The vet, the farrier, the dentist......are just not important enough to merit a reaction. |
LL
Member
Username: frances
Post Number: 746
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, Nov 24, 2008 - 6:33 am: | |
For my horse, the twitch seems to be a pleasant experience. She appears to welcome it, and goes into a kind of torpor. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 21826
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Monday, Nov 24, 2008 - 8:51 am: | |
Both Lee's and LL's experiences are common when the twitch or lip chain is properly applied. There is believed to be a pharmacological reason for the response both of you note: an increase in the release of brain endorphins has been found. These may be responsible for a calm state of mind. But I also think there is a psychological reason in the case of the lip chain: the horse submits to the will on the handler and with this submission relaxes.
As noted above by PattyB you have to be very careful when horses are twitched and sleepy. I have seen dozens of horses arouse out of the sleep by rearing and pawing the twitch faster than you can react. For more on this see the article associated with this discussion.
DrO |
Corinne Candice
Member
Username: corinne
Post Number: 1405
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Monday, Nov 24, 2008 - 9:13 am: | |
My Arab was twitched once four years ago and will panic still to the this day if he sees one come out of the bag. We used a big clamp on his lip recently recommended by the vet, applies a nice amount of pressure and you can get out of the way. It was for the first time he had shoes put on and too bad we did not coordinate well as in hindsight it would have been better to get both hind shoes ready to apply once the clamp was on as we had to take the clamp off in between feet and it took three us to get it on the next time this time! I had to sneak under and grab the bottom lip. Be careful when applying anything to the head! And of course every horse is different, I still can't really go near his nose without his getting a tiny bit anxious from the first twitch.
v/r
Corinne |
PattyB
Member
Username: pattyb
Post Number: 15
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Monday, Nov 24, 2008 - 9:59 am: | |
Good morning everyone.
Corrinne...after my experience of finding myself on the ground ten feet away spitting blood everywhere, I can sooooo relate to a horse's fear of twitches. To this day, when I see that type of twitch, I feel it in my knees (and I'm not kidding either). The day my horse was twitched last week, later that night, it took an hour of patting his face and nose to get him over it. In my lifetime, I've seen many a horse who didn't fight one, unfortunately for me, my horse is not one of them. For some reason, I would not be surprised to have the same thing happen with a lip chain or clip....which leads me to mapping out a strategy for sweet feed/desensitizing and, asking my vet about the Ace granules if I should need them in my battle plan, maybe just in the beginning of the actual needle penetration.
PS: I couldn't spell strategy to save my life, had to look it up in a dictionary after lolol 4 tries. |
Angie J.
Member
Username: ajudson1
Post Number: 2142
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Monday, Nov 24, 2008 - 11:04 am: | |
Just wanted to add I've never been able to use a twitch successfully. I can't keep the chain part of it on the lip, and it turns into a war.
Let me elaborate on how I set up the lip chain: I have stud chain that has a hook on one end, and triangle shape on the other end. I feed it through the upper...umm, link thing on the halter. (what word am I looking for here?) I make a twist or 2 on the cheek piece of the halter, depending on the length I need. Then I feed it through the 2nd halter hole thing, and I put the chain under the lip, and hook it on the other side of the halter. I have no battle at all doing this as I play with the horses lip until I get the chain situated, then I wait a bit until the horse looks relaxed and give the shot, or clean a wound, whatever. I can do this all alone and it works great.
You could use a dog's choke chain also with hooks on both ends, I'd just make sure it was thick chain vs a thinner one. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 21832
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Monday, Nov 24, 2008 - 8:13 pm: | |
It has been more than 20 years that a good chain twitch was manufactured in my opinion. The ones you see nowadays have too short a handle and the chain does not wrap right. The article I reference above tells you how to make a good rope twitch.
DrO |
LL
Member
Username: frances
Post Number: 750
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 - 6:31 am: | |
The twitch that my horse likes is a rope one. Isn't there an old gypsy remedy of attaching a piece of string to either side of a headcollar so that the string lies against the gums, releasing endorphins? That's what I always think of when I see my mare going all woozy with the twitch rope lying against her gums. |
Angie J.
Member
Username: ajudson1
Post Number: 2145
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 - 8:21 am: | |
LL,
That would be how the Stabilizer device works. Here's a link that shows one of them.
http://horseselectsales.com/halters.htm |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 21839
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 - 7:11 pm: | |
LL when I see the chain or rope of a twitch lying against the gums I consider it misapplied and possibly creating pain and less tolerance to the twitch. The twitch should be twisted in a manner that lifts the twitch off of the gums. From the left side of the horse this would be twisted clockwise from the right counterclockwise.
DrO |
LL
Member
Username: frances
Post Number: 752
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, Nov 26, 2008 - 5:22 am: | |
Oh dear - well I'll have to check that out.
It could be that, having the old gypsy trick in mind, I interpreted what I was seeing wrongly and just assumed the rope was actually touching the gums to produce such a relaxed effect? She certainly seems very accepting of the twitch. |
