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Discussion on Refuses to go to the right - bucks, rears, runs off | |
Author | Message |
New Member: Sbawer1 |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 13, 2004 - 6:51 pm: I bought a month ago (a very green) 4 yr. old mare - Irish Sport Horse. She is very sweet until you ride her and turn her to the right. She will buck, rear and do everything she can to go left instead. She also throws her head a lot. This has been getting worse as I have been riding her for the past month. Als0 - she had 4 days off then I rode her yesterday and she was pretty good for 20 minutes before really acting up. Today she was terrible from the moment I got on her. She previously was mostly worked with from the ground on a lunge line. I have tried several bits - all snaffles of different widths, french link and jointed. Any suggestions? She is good going left - no behavior issues. |
Member: Onehorse |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 13, 2004 - 7:32 pm: Susan,I suppose the answer to your problems is to just go straight or to the left, lol. However, I too enjoy going to the right occassionally. And so ... I don't think "bits" is the answer to your problem. Sounds like she's experiencing pain when asked to go to the right. Have you had her examined chiropractically? I have seen some 'behavorial' problems eliminated by such examination and treatment in horses. If you do take this route, be sure to go to an experienced and certified practioner. Till you find one, try running your hand and fingers along all muscle lines of her body and along her spine. Try and be sensitive to the touch for either bumps, lumps, unusual 'hardness' and any sensitive areas. Something could be out of alignment or she could have a muscle pull or strain. Clearly, something is bothering her going to the right. Also, since she had some time off and rested and behaved pretty well for a while ... there could be something that irritates her as she continues to work and over night doesn't give it time to subside ... perhaps why she was so poor today immediately. Hope this helps you. If not a chiropractor, perhaps your vet could examine her. |
Member: Ajudson1 |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 13, 2004 - 9:09 pm: Before going with a chiropractor or even having a vet out, try this: with her halter on, rub along side her mouth and jaw. If she reacts to that it may mean she has sharp edges on her molars and she needs dental work done. My very sensitive Arab mare had me so frustrated I was ready to sell her, she was trying all kinds of moves I wasn't moving with! Luckily, I have a friend who just went to Equine Dental school, and she checked her out and showed me the razor sharp edges in her mouth. And alot of sores inside her checks. Although we still aren't done with this mare, we saw alot of improvement after our first attemps at filing them down. Not being able to tranquilize her, we weren't able to finish her on the most painful side, but even so she's soo much better.The dental work helped with the side to side problems, but she still doesn't like contact because (I think) she needs the wolf (?) teeth removed yet. Don't be afraid to also check the bars of her mouth; feel for bumps and sores. Just don't put your fingers where the teeth start!!! I think at 4, your horse can also have caps that haven't come off, plus those wolf teeth. If teeth do seem to be the problem please find someone who just does teeth as most vets get only very basic training in dental work. IMO. Let us know what you find out. |
Member: Eoeo |
Posted on Monday, Jun 14, 2004 - 12:10 am: I am so glad someone mentioned TEETH!! We have had 3 horses in the past two years that have had caps, sharp edges, horrible sores in their mouths, and they were in race training at the time. One threw the trainer's son, actually turned out from under him and he cracked some vertebraes in his back. Of course, the trainer and all his help blamed our horse for being temperamental. In fact, he had been having problems with him for a couple of months. We took the horse home immediately and I took him to our vet who has pneumatic dental tools. He worked for 45 minutes on him, pulled about 4 caps, filed several down, evened out the teeth in front and this was only a 3 year old. What the heck is the matter with these race trainers?? For that matter, what is the matter with the track vets? They don't seem to want to spend time on floating teeth. Every horse needs a thorough check of their mouth every six months if they are fairly young, at least once a year if they are older. The horse wasn't DrOpping a lot of grain, just avoiding the pain of the bit. He is a different horse now, and the change was immediate after the pain was gone. You need to let sores heal for a couple of weeks after you have the work done before you bit them up again. EO |
Member: Ajudson1 |
Posted on Monday, Jun 14, 2004 - 9:03 am: EO, it isn't just track vets who don't want to spend time doing teeth. My mare had her teeth done by two vets prior to my friend doing them. The price of the farm call, price of float, and with 2 of my horses, cost of tranquilizer. I thought they had done something. When my friend got done explaining to me all the kinds of problems this horse had, I was very angry that these vets couldn't be honest enough to tell me they only get about 1 week of equine dental schooling, and as another vet put it to me, even a month of school (which my friend has) isn't enough. And one basic dental file does not do all the work needed!!Like the trainers son, I had my hands full and thought my horse was crazy. I wanted to sell her so I wouldn't get hurt, but was afraid to have anyone try her out for fear they'd get hurt. My first clue that maybe teeth were the problem was I tried a regular mechical hackmore on her. And away we went!!! She still acted like an Arab, a little head tossing, trying to go, but hey, her first (almost) painFREE ride out in a couple of years, do ya blame her for feeling good?? When I checked her for pain as I described in my first post, she yanked back and tried to keep getting away from me. She couldn't stand the sides of her mouth/jaw being touched at all. I just about cried when I saw all the sores in her mouth. As I said earlier she needs more work done, including bit seats put on. BTW, she's 15 yrs old. And has most likely been in pain for the last 5 years. A word of caution about the pneumatic tools: it's very easy to do way too much with these as they work so much better than useing just your muscles. I am betting it is something as simple (but overlooked) as dental work for Susan's horse. |
Member: Eoeo |
Posted on Monday, Jun 14, 2004 - 9:31 am: I hear you Angie about overduing the pneumatic float. Our vet is doing 200+ horses a year now for dental work so he is getting pretty good at it. He worked with an actual equine dentist for quite a while before he jumped into this so he does have training. Most don't as you said. Big mistake on the vet school's part. Good luck everyone on getting your horses' teeth up to par. EO |
Member: Sbawer1 |
Posted on Monday, Jun 14, 2004 - 12:05 pm: Thanks for your responses - this horse was floated 6 months ago and I am trying to get the vet out to take a look at her. In the meantime I don't think I will ride her as she is too nutty under bit. |
Member: Ajudson1 |
Posted on Monday, Jun 14, 2004 - 9:12 pm: My horse had been floated 6 months ago also. And had her teeth done every fall for the last 6 yrs.Good idea not to ride her for now; maybe try some lunging, or ground driving---no bit, and see if you see a difference. Good Luck!! |
Member: Imogen |
Posted on Tuesday, Jun 15, 2004 - 7:11 am: Susan - what's the horse by (sire) and what work if any had been done with it before you got it? What is your care/exercise routine?I ask about breeding because the term Irish Sport Horse can cover anything from a totally brilliant bombproof heavyset halfbred allrounder to a nutcase near-TB by one of the stallions held to pass on somehwat dodgy temperament ie fine if you are a 3day eventer looking for a challenge but not to be advised if you are a pleasure trail rider. Also unless you have an Irish Horse Board passport for the horse and it has been DNA classified and microchipped, do bear in mind many horses are passed off as Irish these days which in fact come from Eastern Europe. Does the horse show any problems working on the right rein on the lunge, or only when ridden? All the best Imogen |
Member: Astbury |
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 19, 2005 - 5:37 pm: Hi ImogenI read with interest your comments on varieties of Irish Sport Horse. Think you are in Ireland - have you ever heard of a horse called Mizzen Melody? - Apologies - dont want to "hijack" Susan Bawer's query - and do hope Susan has resolved her problem with the new horse - but I dont know where to direct this query - and have for years been trying to find out about this Irish Sports Horse Stallion - without success. Believe breeder is (or was) in the west of Northern Ireland. Thanks. Jenny |
Member: Kckohles |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 22, 2005 - 12:55 am: Hi Susan,Not to harp on the teeth thing but you said your horse was floated, by a vet or by a dentist? Because there is a huge difference, I just had a customer buy a new horse and the seller said the teeth had just been done but they hadn't been done by a dentist. Some horses can also have the sort of teeth that need work every six months. KIM |
Member: Kcovell |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 22, 2005 - 4:23 am: SusanI have my horses teeth floated every six months by a certified equie dentist. That is his profession. I've had vets do a horse when I thought there was a problem and when the problem continued I brought my horse to him. After he got done with my horse the problem was gone. I don't know how hard it would be for you to find someone like this where you live, but it would be well worth it as well as getting a complete vet check before using a chiropractor. Have you tried riding with a hackamore to see if you get the same response? KC |
Member: Sbawer1 |
Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 8:53 pm: Hi, it's been a year and I have good news and bad news about my mare and a new issue (but somewhat related to last years posting). I see others have similiar issues but don't see any postings quite the same. My mare is now a young 5 year old. She is turning out to do beautiful dressage and is a fearless jumper. She has been in full professional training (4 days per week) with me riding her mostly on weekends and only when in lessons. My problem is this: with the trainers she is a angel (still opinionated and strong attitude but mostly well behaved). With me she cow hops and has on occassion bucked when asked to canter to the right(she sent me to the hospital after one bad bucking incident). This seems to be getting much worse the past month or so - yesterday's buck was a big one, but I stayed on and then my trainer got on and yes, my mare was perfectly behaved with her. Also - today she was perfect with the trainer. So, obviously this problem is me and my riding style and her attitude. (The saddle was checked and is fine, her teeth were done recently, she had a chiropractor look at her and is fine...). I don't want to get rid of her but I don't want to get hurt either. Any suggestions for dealing with the cow hops and bucks?? She definitely is one who needs to know who is boss, but it seems that when I put leg on and ask her to canter right she flips. (Doing canter serpentines around the ring she is fine.) I am terribly frustrated and my trainers don't get it either. She is and has been on vit B1.Help, please. |
Member: Dres |
Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 9:23 pm: Susan, maybe your aides are to strong for her... I have a mare that can be sensitive to a stronger aide, she will squeal or buck. If I am abrupt or have not thought out ahead of time what I am asking of her she reacts.. Sounds like your mare is lovely and very sensitive...On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with SPOTS.. |
Member: Kckohles |
Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 9:54 pm: Susan,Sounds like your mare is objecting to the transition. Try staying a little more forward and off the saddle in the transition. The horse needs to lift their back to reach the outside hind under the belly for the canter and you might be in the way so the bucking is a way to lift you out of the saddle. KIM |
Member: Sbawer1 |
Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 9:59 pm: Yes, I have been told I have (at different times) using too much aid, too much inside rein or too much outside rein. It is never the same comment which really causes me to wonder what I am doing to cause this behavior from her. I think that my mare gets so mad at me that it leads to the cow hopping and bucks. I have noticed that sometimes if I lean to the right (which goes against all riding techniques I have learned) she will pick up the right lead quietly. However, she doesn't seem to have the same response each time. |
Member: Meggles |
Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 7:56 am: Hi Susan. I had a problem with my mare not too dissimilar to yours. She would walk and trot around fine but as soon as I asked for canter she became all fired up, would boing around on the spot or just stop dead in a temper...if I didn't fall off when she stopped dead it felt like she was going to buck me off. It took a new instructor to teach me that my horse was actually worried about the transition and therefore tried to take off quickly and my reaction was to hold onto her. Because I held onto her she was confused about exactly what I'd asked for. I also had a tendency to tip forwards when asking for the transition which was also blocking her. It was me that didn't allow her forwards so all of the energy was directed into an up and down motion. She is a sensitive mare and needs to feel as though she understands what is being asked of her. If she doesn't understand she throws a wobbler. I had to learn to trust her more and let go of her into the transition before I could then start to ask more. This horse also taught me how to really sit deep, tall and back on my bum!! It took 18 months for us to reach an understanding and she is a different horse to ride now. It may be worth you giving some consideration to changing instructor. I had the same person teaching me for 8 months (highly qualified too) and still had a horse that I had to treat with kid gloves and who wouldn't do a sensible canter transition in the school. I sent her away for schooling which didn't work out and eventually I changed instructors. Within four weeks of changing I had a much happier horse and we entered our first dressage competition. What I'm basically saying is that I believe you have to learn to ride your horse yourself in a way that suits the horse. I also believe that you need someone who understands you both enough to be able to help you.Sarah |
Member: Sbawer1 |
Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 12:07 pm: Thanks Sara - I actually have three different trainers working with me and my girl. They all ride her and don't get the response I get. I know this issue lies with me and how I am asking for the transition. I can't do any competitions until I can get this figured out! What gives me hope is that so many others have had similiar issues they have worked thru. She is my third horse, 2nd mare in 4 years and I had no issues like this with the other two. |
Member: Mrose |
Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 12:57 pm: Susan - is there someone available to take video of you riding your mare? It's often pretty easy to see what we are doing wrong when we can see ourselves. If you are leaning too far forward, riding a little crooked, using too much rein on one side, etc. this would be easy to spot. It's a lot easier than having a trainer telling us what we're doing wrong. (You know how easy it is to stand on the rail at a show and critique everyone!)Take your time and try to figure this out. Sound like your mare is worth the trouble. |
Member: Mrose |
Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 1:05 pm: Susan-me again=I was just re-reading your posts from last year. It's of interest that your problems with your mare then were related to going to the right also. Have you checked your mare for any physical reasons going to the right would be more difficult or uncomfortable for her? (I realize your trainer has no problems with her to the right, but maybe your trainer is a stronger rider and is "forcing" the mare more than you do.)I am thinking about any soreness in the right front leg, foot or shoulder; stiffness for some reason in right side of the neck; probem with the off rear leg? Sometimes a horse will be protesting because of a physical reason and you just need to be sure all these possibles have been ruled out. |
Member: Christos |
Posted on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 10:49 am: Susan, there are many people who can train a green horse to a very advanced level within two or three years.Unfortunately, there are hardly any who can bring a green rider to the same level in the same time. The reason is that horses learn and adjust to these exercises a lot faster than we're able to. Horses are designed for this kind of stuff, we're not. As a result, it takes the rider three times as much time to make the step to the next level. This is the reason I always object to train one's horse if the rider is not ready to accomodate the higher demands. Training a young horse to a higher level does not make it an easier ride for somebody anywhere below that level. It will make it a finely tuned, extremely sensitive and unbelievably powerful competition animal. A rider that is not up to that standard will then have to either dull the horse and waste the training or wait for some ten years until the horse is really experienced enough to work as a schoolmaster. |
Member: Paul303 |
Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 3:36 am: Susan: At my age, I no longer tolerate a horse with any bucks in it. Those horses belong to my past. That said, as mentioned above, it does appear to be a "rider" issue. Trainers are more at home in the saddle than on the ground. Their smooth mesh of intimate communication and deft athletic micro-adjustments mirror the complicated gathering of the horse preparing for a smooth balanced canter take-off. You cannot hope to achieve their innate ease in the saddle without putting in comparable riding hours.So....the question is: do you trade this horse in for one that is more than happy to forgive your mistakes - a horse that, perhaps, barely notices them and is more than content to carry you safely anywhere, anyway, anyhow? Or can you truly not bear to give her up? If this is the case, then I would work her only at the level you are confident at. Practice mainly at the trot - everything. Sitting, posting, trot speed transitions, shoulder in, shoulder out, large circles, small circles, figure 8, etc. etc. etc. If you are confident at the trot, then this is where you should learn to coordinate all the intricate movements involved in applying your aids. Above all, this mare needs to be kept moving, active, and engaged. It's possible that when she has misbehaved, the irritant was removed...you probably stopped pushing for a right lead canter, and paused to collect yourself and discuss with your trainer what went wrong. A "reward" for her. Don't reinforce that reward. Instead, become an expert at the trot - without frequent stops. To rest her ( and yourself), practice all aids at the walk. Back, side - pass, forehand and hindquarter turns, etc. and when you catch your breath, trot again. If you do a fautless left lead transition, then do that also. Don't worry about uneven development, her trainers are her real riders - that's their responsibility. You concentrate on becoming a confident athoritative rider who keeps her mare so busy and engaged that there is no time to think about bunching up and bucking. During this time, you will develope incredible muscles and coordination. Your aids will be smooth and undetectable and your confidence level will soar. You will have...balance. That is when you work on the right lead take off. Two things - remember that both you and the horse have a side that you favor. There is no horse that is worth risking bodily harm. |
Member: Vickiann |
Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 11:50 am: What a lot of good advice and comments! To add to the exceptional advice already given, I would suggest checking the saddle fit. Especially with young horses, going to the right can be something they prefer not to do, as it is often harder for most of them. Continuing to go to the left might also cause the back to develop in a less symmetrical way (many horses are not symmetrical) and this certainly creates problems with saddle fit. Do your trainers who ride her use the same saddle you ride her with? |
Member: Sbawer1 |
Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 1:08 pm: Thanks for all the advice! I don't plan to sell her though I am looking (not very actively) for another (a gelding this time) to supplement my riding. Her saddle is fine, just checked. She and I had two great days this weekend. A stadium jumping schooling and a cross country schooling. She was fabulous at both. Also - picked up her right leads, no problems. The one day I did dressage with her she acted up and threw a few bucks when asked to canter right. What my trainer and I think is that she is "over rounding" herself instead of going forward and projects herself upwards in a buck instead of outwards into a nice canter. Earlier in the ride when she was not as collected she was fine. From others posts this does not sound too dissimilar to others issues with their warmblood mares! |