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Discussion on Lyme again | |
Author | Message |
Member: Miamoo |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 13, 2004 - 7:16 pm: Hi.I'm not sure if this is posted in the correct place. I couldn't find a specific spot for Lyme. This post is for Dr. O and anyone else that knows more about this than me. I have a 2 year old that has been diagnosed with Lyme. I insisted in running a test even though, because she was sound, the vet did not think it was necessary. I wanted to have it run because the youngster was so lazy, more lazy than my 21 and 22 year old horses and because the youngster was sensitive to the grooming utensils. I couldn't remember this being the case over the winter. While the vet was there and drew the blood for the Lyme test he also gave the filly her shots. The next day she was not feeling well because of her shots and the vet told her to give the filly Banamine. With the Banamine not only did she stop feeling ill but the muscle soreness went away and the filly started playing in the pasture again. She seemed fine and has stayed fine, it has been 3 weeks. Needless to say I was surprised and very disapointed when the Lyme test came back positive. She starts on Doxycillin (sp?) tomorrow. I guess I have 3 questions. 1. From this sight I have seen posts from Dr. O expressing his belief that Lyme does not become symptomatic in horses. Is this still your general thought Dr. O? 2. What does anyone make of the Banamine (only one dose) helping the symptoms. Is it even possible for this to have happened if the symptoms were from Lyme? 3. Could anyone with Lyme experience share success stories. It would be most appreciated. I am beside myself to think that my beautiful filly could have lifelong troubles from this. Thanks, Ella |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, Jun 14, 2004 - 11:24 am: Hello Ella,1. We continue to find experimentally infected horses do not become symptomatic and there are tens of thousands assymptomatic horses with titers. 2. Banamine is a anitinflammatory so any disease that has inflamation as a disease mechanism would have improved symptoms, including disease caused by Lymes. 3. I have not dignosed Lyme as a cause of disease but others have and if you run a search you should find some stories, and there may be others out there. DrO |
Member: Miamoo |
Posted on Monday, Jun 14, 2004 - 12:56 pm: Dr. O,What do you make of the fact that the symptoms stayed away (for 3 weeks now) without any repeated dosages of Banamine? Thanks, Ella |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 16, 2004 - 10:32 am: It sounds like the horse got well.DrO |
Member: Bethyg2 |
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 16, 2004 - 3:52 pm: Hi Dr. O and Ella-I myself had Lyme disease, and I know humans are very different, but Lyme is a pretty tough thing to shake. Since it is a spirochete, I believe that if left untreated or undertreated, it WILL make its way to the spinal fluid and the brain and potentially cause symtoms in humans similar to advanced syphilis (sp?)like dementia. I got Lyme in late 87, in East Hampton NY, found out what is was in about 7 months, and was given doxicycline for 3 weeks. I relapsed almost immediately. Very low grade fevers, fatigue, pain in legs, headaches. Hoffman-Laroche had an experimental drug they were testing at the time and my doctor got me into the drug trial. I took a two week IV course (heparin lock) of the then experimental drug Rocephin (sp?) and I was cured- no recurrences, nothing. Rocephin is a very expensive drug and I have no idea if it is safe in animals or if anyone has ever used it in animals. It is now as far as I know the drug of choice for people though. It is impossible for me to believe that an animal who shows an exposure to Lyme, and that has never been treated, does not have symptoms or will not have ill effects in the future. The symptoms can be like other illnesses- that is what is weird about Lyme- and can be subtle at first. I do not believe that the body ( at least what I have been able to find out about the human body) has the ability to fight off the spirochete by itself, like it would a virus. In other words, if it is there, you have to treat it. Anyway that's my 2 cents- hope it helps- though I know horses are probably very different than humans (but maybe not?). -Beth Gordon |
Member: Mwebster |
Posted on Monday, Jun 21, 2004 - 10:37 pm: Beth,As tempting as it is to extrapolate from our own experience (as valuable as that experience is), as you point out it's not necessarily going to shine a light on what's ailing our horses. Your story resonated for me, as my husband had to cope with advanced Lyme, spent a month on Rocephrin, and had a relapse 10 years later (whether it was a new infection or a recurrence, we'll never know, but the DNA test for the spirochete confirmed he had a new active case, after some unnecessary arthroscopic surgery on his knee). Lyme is a real problem in humans, but it hasn't been proven to be a real problem in horses. Treating horses for suspected Lyme (just because they have a mild titre) and then continuing treatment even though there's no improvement on the antibiotics seems like a misguided (even if well-intentioned) approach to me. And I've been there: I took my aged lame gelding to a 2nd opinion vet who did a Lyme titre, and it was a mild positive (note: we didn't have any "baseline" to compare with!), we put him on doxy, and no improvement. It turned out the first vet was right: my gelding had arthritis. So the Lyme treatment had no benefit and just weakened his immune system, and delayed the onset of a more effective treatment for his arthritis. When you look at the list of zoonotic diseases -- diseases horses and humans are able to share/transmit - the list is surprisingly small. It's maybe a third of what we can share with our dogs and cats. So it doesn't really surprise me that we and our horses might not have the same sensitivity to specific infections, e.g. Lyme. We already know that horses are more vulnerable to West Nile than humans are, for example. Melissa |
Member: Bethyg2 |
Posted on Tuesday, Jun 22, 2004 - 11:56 am: Dear Melissa-Just a follow up- What I didn't mention before is that it did take a full 7 months to diagnose my Lyme- and it was finally diagnosed by a rheumatologist- where I had gone because I, in my early to mid 20s at the time, was exhibiting signs of arthritis, low grade fevers, etc. No one really knew (except the doctors on Long Island)what Lyme was at that time- it was new although children lived w/ arthritis all over long island and no one knew why for years. So, the fact that the gelding has arthritis may very well be symptomatic of a Lyme infection. Not that arthritis isn't caused by other things, but Lyme causes a rheumatoid arthritis-like symptom. In other words, osteo- arthritis won't be seen on films. Rheumatoid arthritis is one of the MAIN symtoms of Lyme. One of the problems with Lyme diagnosis is that the symptoms often masquerade as other things, and are often very subtle. -IE the patient is often able to work and function but just feels lousy. Personally I just can't imagine that it is normal or good for a human, a dog, or a horse to have a spirochete in its system, ever. Veterinary science already knows that dogs do not "fight off" a lyme infection naturally, or even develop a resistance to it. They have to be treated (at least according to my vet). I don't know about horses, but it was my horse I'd be looking to see if there was a treatment for Lyme. If the horse already has arthritis, and it is of the rheumatoid variety, I'd say the horse is not asymtomatic.It will only worsen w/ time, imo.Yes horses are different from humans, but as far as the spirochete infection goes, I can't imagine they are that different. -Beth |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 - 7:09 am: Beth there is nothing special about "spirochetes" from a pathological standpoint. There are innocuous and noninfectious spirochetes. We are continuously and constantly being invaded by thousands of organisms, including spirochetes that are immune system protects us from. It is a fact, not an opinion, that:1) in Lyme endemic areas over half of all the healthy horses have titers to Lyme and no history of Lymes type disease. 2) experimentally infected horses become infected, excrete the organism, clear the organism, seroconvert but do not develop symptoms of disease. DrO |
Member: Miamoo |
Posted on Friday, Jun 25, 2004 - 2:24 pm: Sorry All,I started this talk and have been away. I was surprised to see all the replies when I returned. What I have come to is the understanding that this Lyme in my filly may or may not cause problems with or without treatment. I personally am not willing to risk not treating. I am on week 2 of the Doxy. Thank god she eats it mixed with her grain and a bit of molasses. As Melissa mentioned above, now I have a baseline. Although my filly did have a fairly high titre, in the 300 range, at least I have something to compare it to if I have any future troubles. Thank you for all the interest. Ella |
Member: Sondra |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 - 9:41 am: I'd like to resurrect this thread... specifically, re the conclusion Dr. O supports that 'experimentally infected horses become infected, excrete the organism, clear the organism, seroconvert but do not develop symptoms of disease'.These experimentally infected horses - for how long were they monitored? A few weeks, months, years? As has been stated by other posters, while the statement above may be true, isn't it possible that down the road - months, years, whatever - a horse could eventually display problems that were originally catalyzed by the Lyme infection (that seemed to 'clear' on its own or never brought on immediate clinical signs)?? And if there is any truth to that, could treating a positive horse (even without symptoms) help prevent the onset of future problems or degeneration potentially caused by the original infection? My interest in this is based on my 2 year old gelding who tested positive (mid-range titre and Blot). He originally had a high fever but no longer showed symptoms (that I could see) when he was actually blood-tested. I don't like to use antibiotics unless necessary but yes I'm concerned and am interested in whether there is there any possible value in treating, if it might prevent degenerative issues that may reveal themselves over time, maybe a long time down the road? |
Member: Miamoo |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 - 1:15 pm: From all I have learned, I would treat. I have been conversing with a vet who is a specialist in the area (small animal) who has chronic lyme herself. She is terrified of this disease and all that is not known about it for both people and animals. She would treat and keep a very close eye for any relapses - Including listening to the heart regularly.Ella |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Friday, Jan 13, 2006 - 7:25 am: Certainly there are circumstances we could postulate that have not been investigated but your particular postulate does not account for the epidemiological surveys that have been done. When the positive population in endemic areas are compared to the negative population there is not an increase in current or historical health problems with those who test positive. Some of these studies have been huge involving hundreds of horses. You have to assume some of these horses have been positive for years if not many years.Ella, my condolences go out to the small animal vet and I believe it is well established that Lymes does cause serious disease in dogs but I am not sure her state of mind makes her the best source of information. DrO |