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Discussion on LaminaSaver By Figuerola Labs

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Christine Sizemore
Member
Username: Gingin

Post Number: 31
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Friday, Jun 18, 2004 - 7:52 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hello Dr. O!
I looked everywhere on this site but did not find any threads or discussion on any success (or lack of) using LaminaSaver in recently or chronically foundered horses. Has anyone used this stuff and is there really any truth to the claims that The Horse Journal seemed to endorse that acutely foundered horses showed faster recovery when on this product? And what about chronic laminitis?? Any advice or thoughts would be greatly appreciated :-)

Thanks much!
Christine
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Borderline Farm
Member
Username: Deedrott

Post Number: 5
Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Saturday, Jun 19, 2004 - 11:26 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hello Christine

I have used this product and I swear by it.
We have a Hanovarian that just one day come up
dead lame. He could hardly walk on his right front - actually he was walking tow/heal. He was
x-rayed and the vet said he had indications of
a foundered horse in the right front only. (odd)
He was on stall rest with bute for a while and
special shoeing. Was not getting much better - I found the Lamina Saver and started him on it. He
was getting better and he was still on stall rest.
We started turning him out in the indoor arena on the softer footing and he kept improving. Then we
found a new farrier (Amish) they have there own ways of doing things - so he did some shoeing similar to what the other farrier was but he was
not happy with it. He asked if he could take the
horse to his place to keep a watch on him and he
felt he could help him. We actully had nothing to
loose so off he went. He went to the farriers, he was on 24/7 turn out (still on the lamina saver) and when we went to visit him we discovered that the farrier had every 3 weeks been trimming him (squaring off his toe) and he had his shoe on backwards. AND!! he was sound. Amazing. The farrier was impressed and asked for information this product so he could read about it. He had thought all along that he could help him but he did not think he would improve so quickly, but with the lamina saver he progressed much quicker than expected.

Now he use to be a jumper - but those days are
definately gone - but he came home and was able
to go out an run with the others (still on 24/7 turn out and on lamina saver). He was home and keeping the broodmares company when a friend of ours asked us to keep an eye out for a horse that
could keep his gelding company and could go on some light trial rides. WEll - guess what that is
where he has been for 3 months now and loving it.
He has something to do and is happy sound doing it.

I am not sure if there is truth in reversal for this diesese using the lamina saver - but I do know that between this product and the help of the Amish farrier he is able to be a horse and enjoy life again. I believe had I not found the lamina saver that we may have had to eventually put him down. I think the help from the Amish farrier played a part also which the two together made the result quicker. So - as we knew from the beginning a good farrier is essential along with
a good product. I belive we found that and he is now a happy horse again. He would be a comedian if a human so to see him in such pain every day was just heart crushing.

He now flaps his lips again for a carrot and rolls his lip back and turns his head upside down. He is a happy horse and so are we.

Good Luck
Dee
Borderline Farm
you can e-mail me direct borderlinefarm@earthlink.net
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 10654
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Sunday, Jun 20, 2004 - 8:46 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Christine, can you list me the ingredients and amount per dose and recommended frequency of dosing.
DrO
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Christine Sizemore
Member
Username: Gingin

Post Number: 34
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Sunday, Jun 20, 2004 - 11:42 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hello Dr. O...see, that's the problem with this stuff...no ingredients listed except "proprietary formulation" (see here for whatever details and dosing recommendation they provide: http://www.laminasaver.com/pd_laminasaver.htm). This stuff is expensive as sin, about $230 for 120 servings. The Horse Journal has done field studies with it (not necesarily what I would call a blinded or even statistically sound clinical trial, plus, there was always farrier care involved....), see here:
http://www.horse-journal.com/newspics/pdfs/9-6-Case.pdf, and endorsed it: http://www.equinesaver.com/laminasaver_article.htm.
That's pretty much all there is to be found on it....its expensive, it seems to be the "miracle supplement"......(http://www.figuerola-labs.com/cd_laminasaver.htm)....hmmmmm
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Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose

Post Number: 262
Registered: 1-2000
Posted on Sunday, Jun 20, 2004 - 12:44 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

My vet suggested I might try it on our gelding. (He was the horse most severly affected by the purpura, or whatever it was, Dr.O.) Just a couple of days on the stuff and you could see an improvement. Of course, he had farrier care, but was getting that all along. I kept him on it for about mos., then took him off to see how he would do. He's not had a problem since, even though we pulled his shoes. His feet look very good. He is still barefoot and has had no problems. He is on a restricted diet and has always gotten vitamin/mineral supplements also.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 10662
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Monday, Jun 21, 2004 - 8:14 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Near as I can tell Restaurex is a made up term and remain clueless as to what is in it. Again I do not use products that do not list carefully their ingredients and I have to admit I quit my Horse Journal subsciption years ago because of sloppy medical reporting that apparently continues through today.
DrO
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Debbie E
Member
Username: Deggert

Post Number: 29
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Monday, Jun 21, 2004 - 12:23 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hello Christine,
I logged on this morning and saw the posts on Lamina Saver. I thought I had started it but I must have been in a stooper since my mare foaled 3 weeks ago and has case of supporting leg laminitis going on. Sleep deprivation happens to me on a regular basis what with keeping a vigilant eye on her to see some evidence of improvement or regression. She was doing very well till last Tuesday when I changed her foot support and we weaned her off bute at the same time. She got very sore again, She has about 6 degrees rotation per the recent set x-rays this weekend. The foot that started this whole supporting leg founder business is looking good. You may have read all my posts on this a few weeks ago. Anyway, Back on 2-3 grams Bute a day got her back feeling good and using the leg, left all support off and she stays in the deep shavings, but I and the vets are hoping we can get her of the bute with the stomach issues etc. Her and the baby are on Zantac.
I ordered Lamina Saver on Friday, waiting for it to come today with mixed feelings. I ordered directly from Figuerola since they are just a few hours from me in Calif.and I ordered the Inflammasaver with it. Supposedly it can help with pain control and reduce or expedite getting her off bute. Her coronets are fairly sunk on the foundered foot but the x-rays did not show sinking of p-3, at least yet. I am excited to hear this product worked for your horse. I thought the company was very helpful and I ordered the one pounders to see what kind of response she gets. My vet gave me the option of speaking with a nutritionist that they feel knows her stuff, because we are dealing with so much with this mare, lactation, trying to heal herself, possible insulin resistance etc. I need help balancing her diet to address all the issues. Enjoyed the response to Lamina Saver, if anyone esle has tried it, good or bad, I would love to hear it. Thanks
ps,, it is spendy but with the vet bills I have its a drop in the bucket. If it helps, its priceless
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Debbie E
Member
Username: Deggert

Post Number: 30
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Monday, Jun 21, 2004 - 1:28 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I am clear now, it was Dee and Sara who tried the LaminaSaver and liked it. Christine and I are considering using it. Thanks, Please, any more feedback particularly on new cases of laminitis
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Shirley A. Johnson
Member
Username: Shirl

Post Number: 122
Registered: 2-2002
Posted on Monday, Jun 21, 2004 - 2:16 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi All, For those of you interested. K V Vet Supply has the cheaper price for purchasing/shipping Laminasaver, at least to AZ.
For 3 lbs. shipped it's $206.10. You might check for any shipping difference based on your area.
Shirl
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Christine Sizemore
Member
Username: Gingin

Post Number: 35
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, Jun 22, 2004 - 7:07 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks everyone for the posts....I will definitely keep watching this although I am still a bit more on Dr O's side with the caution that anything that does not list ingredients may well be "snake oil"......I just wished someone would do a ramdomized controlled and blinded trial with this product in case it really has some potential...maybe this is being done somewhere given the "miracle claims" for this product.
Please keep sharing your experiences with this product, especially in light of what other care your horse is getting and at what stage in the process s/he was put on this product...I'm just afraid its like taking drugs that are supposed to "cure the flu"...by the time you are desperate enough to try anything, regardless of the price, you may be far enough along already to have gotten better even without the drug...however, in the off-chance that there is REALLY something to this supplement....I'd like to be the first one to know so that I can put my mare on it
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Leah Hinnefeld
Member
Username: Belhaven

Post Number: 215
Registered: 1-2001
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 - 8:31 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I have a founder prone horse and have had him on Quiessence...

http://www.foxdenequine.com

You can contact Dr Melyni and ask her all the questions you would like. THe ingredients are also listed.

Just giving another option for you
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Debbie E
Member
Username: Deggert

Post Number: 31
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 - 11:57 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Christine
I started my mare on it last night. I am not giving the Inflammasaver yet, I would rather start one thing at a time. We have lowered her bute to 2 grams a day and she is pretty happy there, walking with little or no pain. She also is happy with nothing on her foundered foot except deep shaving. She is a little over 3 weeks since the acute occurance. Her rotation has stayed at 5-6 degrees but she does have some depression at the coronet. The x-rays so far do not show sinking but...... I don't think the LaminaSaver will hurt her so its worth it to me to try it. By the way, my vet is not big on this product either and he agrees with Dr. O on the Horse Journal. My farrier is coming end of the week and we will re-set her 3 good feet and discuss with the vet what, if anything, to do to the foundered foot. Definitely no nails for now we will just sit tight and keep her comfortable. I will keep you posted, good luck
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Christine Sizemore
Member
Username: Gingin

Post Number: 38
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 - 5:29 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks Leah! I put my "girl" on magnesium oxide when she had her last active laminitis bout about 12 months ago....I did not buy the quiessence but went with FEED GRADE Magesium oxide (I think I paid about 75c per pound or something like that in our local Southern States Store), the stuff you feed to cattle to prevent grass tetanus. I just ground it up in a coffee grinder and weighed out small portions that make up about 10 g of "Mg" (i.e. molecular weight minus the "0") to supplement her other feed (Triple Crown Lite, 1.5 lbs/day, ACCEL and Biotin) to make up a total of about 15 g Mg in this part of her diet. Dr. O, do you think feed grade MgO is this an adequate alternative to Quiessence and what do you think about Mg supplementation for cresty/founder prone horses in general? I think it has not adversely affected my mare, she dealt pretty well with the needed weight reduction after her last laminitis bout and we nicely got rid of her cresty neck and other fat deposits, and they have stayed away. She is still on a strict diet plan (including grazing muzzle with 12 hr turn-out and free hay for the other 12 hours in her stall).... and has been doing well without any serious lameness...
Debbie, can you send a picture of what this "depression at the coronet" looks like? I have tried to find pictures on the web and in my horse health books but can't find any...what does this look like?

Thanks again!
Christine
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Debbie E
Member
Username: Deggert

Post Number: 32
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 - 6:32 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Christine
In the past I have supplemented Mg using Uckele's product Bioplex Magnesium. My mare lost a 60 day
pregnancy 2 years ago and I had hair analysis done on her and the vet ran blood. It was interesting that both said she was low in Mg and the hair analysis said she appeared to have insulin resistance causing metabolic stress. HMMMM. Since I have to reduce her overall intake during this founder and pull some weight off her I was thinking of getting her back on additional
Mg. If your MgO works that would be cheaper.
The depressions are not readily seen on a photo, at least hers is not. Hers is not so horrible that you can get your finger behind the actual hoof capsule.(Bad) Apparently, in the normal hoof when you run your finger down the pastern to the coronet you run into a ridge up and over the coronet. Dr. O could explain this much better - but its due to the insult to the lamina, loss of stucture to it and possible sinking of P3. If the depression runs all they way around the foot it is bad. Hers seems to be minimal in one area, the inside quarter. If you are interested, if you research Laminitis/Founder, sinking of P3 etc will get some good sites.
Thanks, Debbie
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PattiDR
Member
Username: msmaidn

Post Number: 3
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 20, 2008 - 1:05 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I noticed that the discussions on LaminaSaver here are from some years back. I have a mare that foal foundered in August 2007, but it wasn't discovered until October (I didn't own her then). She was given to me instead of having her put down. I have used LaminaSaver as suggested by my vet. That is the only thing other than Probios that she receives. The farrier put on shoes with a pad that supports the frog and the bone column. Right now in Feb. 08 her hoof is becoming concave and normal. We have about 2 more months of the old hoof wall being grown out. Then I will have more xrays taken. She walks, RUNS, and kicks out when necessary ! I haven't ridden her or 'worked' her. I want to wait until the next set of xrays are taken...about 2 months from now, and see what my team (vet and farrier)say. She is a 5 y.o. Saddlebred and I hope that someday I will be able to ride her and let her have a 'job'. She is so affectionate and nice. By the way, her rotation was 14 degrees in one foot and 20 in the other front foot. We are all ecstatic over her progress and the growth to this point. I've also put the product Reducine around the coronet band about once a week. I didn't start that until she'd been on the LaminaSaver for over a month. I truly believe whatever is in the LaminaSaver, it can't be all bad, somethings working in our case.
Thanks!
Patti
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro

Post Number: 20106
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 20, 2008 - 6:46 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hello PattiDR,
In cases of a one time founder event with good trimming and shoeing support I would have expected a good outcome without the LaminaSaver. Without the good shoeing and trimming I don't believe you would have seen these results no matter how expensive a supplement you used.
DrO
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okrancher
New Member
Username: ranchman

Post Number: 1
Registered: 10-2009
Posted on Wednesday, Oct 14, 2009 - 3:10 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

LaminaSaver...in my experience with this product I have not found the results to be satisfactory. A concern that I have is that the manufacturer, Figuerola, does not provide the ingredients on its label...for all the user knows this product can be ground up oatmeal and herbal pain killers. If one would look at the dates of the posts on this website as well as some others, the lack of current dates praising the product seems to me to be a point of consideration. I was hoping that this product would be a treatment for an elder gelding we have but it has not been the case. Yes, there was some initial noted degree of change in walk, but I have come to the conclusion that the change is due to herbal pain relief like devil's claw rather than to actual healing of the lamina due to medical treatment. I don't think any enduser really wants to know the exact formula of the ingredients in the product, but we should darn be made aware of what it is we are putting into our horse's digestive system. In my opinion, this product borders on being a 'snake oil type' product...and is just a pricey product that is taking advantage of persons who are truly trying to give their horse(s) a better quality of life. If there is anyone out there who can absolutely refute me and provide me with honest testimony that they were able to take their horse off of this product after its laminitis was cured I would surely be appreciative of it.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro

Post Number: 23930
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Thursday, Oct 15, 2009 - 8:49 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Welcome okrancher,
The problem with the way you phrase your question is that it does not answer your question about the products efficacy. We regularly cure and successfully rehab founder cases without the use of the product. So having included the use of the product in any of these successful cases might give a false impression of efficacy.

And not to be unfair here there is the other side of the coin. Some cases are going to fail no matter what kind of treatment is employed failure of the product during those cases does not prove the product is without benefit.

For these reasons we use science where controls cases are employed and preferably a blinded evaluation are used. I do agree that whenever a product will not list it's active ingredients for evaluation it should be viewed with great skepticism.
DrO
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okrancher
New Member
Username: ranchman

Post Number: 2
Registered: 10-2009
Posted on Friday, Oct 16, 2009 - 2:33 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dr.O, I am full agreement with your comments. I understand that not all cases of laminitis can be effectively and satisfactorily treated. The point that I was attempting to make was that in my case this product was not as effective as I was hoping it would be, my purchase of it being partially based upon some testimonials I read about it. I did not find very many negative testimonials, and looking at the dates of the positive testimonials it now appears to me that there was some kind of 'credibility time' gap. My horse has been on this product for over a month. I know that putting my horse on 'bute' will give him the same temporary relief and change in walking ability that so far this product has done...but the long term consequences of doing this would not be positive. Without the ingredients of the product being listed, I am trying to caution other horse caregivers that by using this product they are putting their horse's long term health at risk. When you come down it, Figuerola is withholding the information of these ingredients for a reason. In any case, I go back to my statement that nutrition, proper trimming, skilled farrier work, with a combination of 'needed and known' medication is what may, and I reiterate 'may' bring about a satisfactory conclusion to the problem. And I agree with you that some cases of laminitis treatment will have no successful result. Usually if something appears to be too good to be true, well most everyone knows the end of that line.
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