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Mishelle A. Carrick
Member
Username: Spencer6
Post Number: 8
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Friday, Feb 25, 2005 - 8:58 am: |   |
Background: I am treating my horse with U Guard 2x in eve. meal to help ease acid build up after hay runs out overnight -- 24 hour turnout but no grass this time of year. He was treated w/Gastro Gard full treatment two years ago, then given U Guard 2x for 6 months. I stopped the U Guard and all was fine. Moved him home, saw signs of uclers again, treated w/GG and now I'm in prevention mode again. He has a low stress life as pleasure/trail horse no showing and minimal trailering. So I discontinued U Guard but gave him some if I thought he would be stressed (eg trailer ride).
I have 3 issues resulting from this long term mgmt:
1) My horse appears bloated and is girthy -- causing me some concern. And I recall he was bloated looking previously when I was giving him daily U Guard. I'm trying to find the cause and I read a Horse Journal article about that states suppressing stomach acid long term can result in improper digestion leading to bloating and foul smelling manure. Both of which I'm experiencing. Isnt' bloating just as serious as an ulcer? What should I do?
2) Because free choice hay (or no more than 2 hours w/out hay or grass) is a key to prevention, my easy-keeper horse is now fat. Not sure there is any solution here other than me trekking out to the barn more frequently and putting out smaller portions of hay. How can I manage the ulcer w/out making him fat? Note: I tried Alfalfa in the past and he did not do well. I don't have good access to Alfalfa in the East and I didn't like the way he was on it either.
3) The U Guard is high in calcuim so to balance the Ca:Ph ratio, I feed him 1/4 c Barley 2x/day. But just read that Barley is less digestible than oats. How do I balance Ca:Ph and ensure max digestibility? |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 12173
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Friday, Feb 25, 2005 - 6:19 pm: | |
Hello Mishelle,
1) Odd this is twice today we have addressed this in two totally different contexts. Though I have not seen anything that relates the long term use of such a product to such problems, it may be so. It probably has more to do with abnormal microbial flora such a product might produce than with problems with digestion directly from a ph change in the stomach.
The problem with this type treatment is that it may result in rebound hyperacidity. We have recommended often in the past not to use these type products in the horse as there is no work that suggests efficacy in fact just the opposite. Bloating can be a serious problem in the horse as it may occlude the bowel's lumen and cause colic.
2) If your horse is overweight you must either decrease the caloric intake or increase the amount of exercise. Perhaps you could find a stemmier hay?
3) You are mistaken in believing that barley is high in phosphorous. While adequate it is unlikely at anything less than very high amounts to be able to compensate for large amounts of a high calcium supplement. Do you know how much calcium your horse is getting daily?
DrO |
Lynn Lindstrom
Member
Username: Frances
Post Number: 83
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, Feb 26, 2005 - 2:24 pm: | |
Hi Michelle - You might find that replacing some of the hay with oat straw would reduce caloric intake. It's also less likely to run out overnight, as horses don't usually gobble it up with the same enthusiasm as hay. |
Mishelle A. Carrick
Member
Username: Spencer6
Post Number: 9
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, Feb 27, 2005 - 8:36 pm: | |
Dr. O,
On #1, I have discontinued using U Guard. Are you saying there is no evidence that it helps prevent stomach acid build up on horses? That's interesting.
On #2, I'm opting for more exercise and trying to cut the hay. We do have one paddock with a good bit of grass that he get's 1/2 day access to. I only give them hay at night or if not on the grass that day.
On #3, that's odd, I had read that barley was high in phosphorous. Oh well, he only gets a small handful 2x per day so I'm sure it's not enough to make any difference. On the calcium intake, he was getting 1 dose of U Guard / day and 1 dose of Diatomaceous Earth / day -- natural wormer. (By the way, first negative fecal EVER after keeping him on the DE for a few months--do I need to start another post to hear how you feel about the DE?) I believe the DE is mostly calcium but is it enough to cause an imbalance in CaPh ratio? 1 does of DE/day? Thanks! |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 12197
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Monday, Feb 28, 2005 - 8:25 am: | |
1) Right, it briefly raises stomach ph, what happens after that is speculative but long term studies have not found antacids prevent ulcers.
2) Using a stemmier hay instead of restricting hay might help decrease stomach acidity by promoting more salivation which is an important buffer.
3) You can find the phosphorous content of most horse feedstuffs in the article Care for Horses » Nutrition » Nutritional Content of Common Feedstuffs for Horses.
There is also no scientific research to suggest that DE is an effective dewormer in horses and no safety studies of its oral use. I am uncertain of the makeup of DE but I was thinking the little diatoms used silicon mainly.
DrO |
Debbie E
Member
Username: Deggert
Post Number: 163
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, Feb 28, 2005 - 12:52 pm: | |
Hi Mishelle
I have a post under "Post colic surgery ulcers"
When my gelding relapsed after 7 months off any zantac etc, he had quite a bad bout. Bloating was incredible, and he was colicky (sp)and he was not on any antacids, zantac etc. After about a day or so we got him through the impaction part and he progressed to diarrhea. This geldig is also incredibly cinchy which I posted about. In hindsight, the signs that are apparent when he is going to relapse are: bloated look, very cinchy, tail swishing and more reactive. I just spoke to a friend who's horse has ulcers and she has tried it all too including feeding many tums to him as a treat before riding. My gelding is also a fatso
so the 4 times a day eating is a challenge to not put weight on him. I do feed some alfalfa for the suppression of stomach acid. He get orchard the rest of the time which they tend to graze on.
Ulcers are a challenge for sure. Good luck to you |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 12203
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, Mar 1, 2005 - 7:47 am: | |
Hello Everyone,
I have gone into the ulcer article to try and make the do's and do not's a bit easier.
DrO |
Mishelle A. Carrick
Member
Username: Spencer6
Post Number: 11
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Friday, Mar 18, 2005 - 8:43 am: | |
Update on my experience with discontinuing U Guard Daily. Spencer was almost immediately (the next day) less bloated looking and less girthy. Each day he seems to return to his former fit looking self. Note: all other dietary components stayed the same. Interesting. Makes sense I suppose that dampening the stomach acid would cause some long term issues. We're preventing ulcers with free choice hay and grazing and small (handful) barley meals 2x/day. All is well. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 12339
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Friday, Mar 18, 2005 - 5:43 pm: | |
Particularly when you consider the rebound phenomenea which may actually result in increase acidity. Great to hear such a easy and economically benefical solution has your horse doing better. As long as your fecals are checked regularly and are clean you can do anything you want but you need to know it is very unlikely the DE has anything to do with parasite control in your horse. (It would be really wonderful if it did!)
DrO |
