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Discussion on Undiagnosed sheath swelling and hind end lameness

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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 3
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Monday, Mar 21, 2005 - 6:15 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I have a 8 year old palomino QH gelding who has had sheath swelling-on and off----since March of 2004. When it first started the vet said he needed to just be cleaned-he was cleaned and seemed fine for a few months.( In Feb of 2004 he received an E/W/T and a rabies shot- in March of 04 he received rhino/flu, west nile and strep nasal) A couple of months later his sheath swelled again- was cleaned agin and the swelling went away-------he used to always have a foul odor coming from sheath area- even after cleaning. In June of 2004 my horse traveled with me from Oklahoma to NJ. After arrriving in NJ my vet there gave him a flu,rhino and a booster strangles. When I returned back to Oklahoma a couple of weeks later he felt just a bit off loping to the right. This would come and go. In October I took him to a vet for the sheath swelling and lameness in right hind. The vet fluroscoped his hocks and said the right hock needed to be blistered. He also said my horse had circulation problems and put on on some DMSO IV drip which took over 2 hours. He did accupuncture -inserted 4-6 needles in croup-and left there for an full hour with my horses croup muscles constantly jumping. I did not think this was correct but I am not a vet. He told me to give my horse B12 shots- into certain acupoints which he shaved. I took my horse home and followed the vets instructions. He also did a CBC and said that was fairly normal and in good range. I returned 2 weeks later with a crippled horse with a swollen sheath. This time he fluroscoped his stifle and said I neede to blister his stifle and his hock-he said they would look like hamburger but in the end my horse would be much better. I took my horse home and contacted a new vet. My horse had hock Xrays and stifle Xrays -both sides- and the vets said there were no major problems. He had his hocks and stifles injected-to make him comfortable. My horse was a reining horse. They did blood work on him and it was normal. This vet cleaned his sheath--- about 6 times over a period of a couple of months-- and it was always real dirty and smelly until the last cleaning about 6 weeks ago. He is still incredibly lame and has a swollen sheath. He has been thru a course of tons of antibiotics. He started out with 2 15 day courses of SMZ. He then went Tucoprim-then to Doxycycline-then to penicillan-then to baytril. Most of these were also given with bute-but he remained unsound. In Jan he seemed to much worse-very listless-weak.His sheath swelled up to the size of a football at one point. I took him off all of the antibiotics and within 2 days he improved-his general attitude and his eyes looked much better. All the vets said my horse was not neurological-swollen sheaths are not associated with that. When I left the vets the last time they told me they didnt know what to do and wished me good-luck. I then called a holistic vet and described my horses symptoms to him. He said my horse either had EPM or herpes and sent me a treatment for that. He first had me put my horse on Thuja for 5 days-to help cleanse his system and then we started the nosodes-which he is still currently taking. I told the holistic vet I wasnt seeing a lot of improvement----I told him I didnt think my horse was neurological. My horse tries to run and buck and play-he just cant extend himself and I think it is becasue of the swollen sheath- I think there is something in there. Sometimes when he lopes he holds his right leg up in the air-if he gets running to hard. When I massage him he pushes back into me really hard . He also had ultrasounds of his sheath and his abdomen and nothing could be found. And rectals came up with nothing. For quite some time when my horse tried to get up after laying down he was neurological- he had to sit like a dog and rock-he no longer does that-he gets up normal. So- after I told my vet not much seemed to be improving he sent me something called Lachesis- which is bushsnake venom -to treat him for lymphangitis. He took this for 5 days. After this treatment he broke out with about 6 small sores on his hindquarters and a week later a small lesion under his throat-this -I was told- were toxins leaving his body-and this is a very good thing.I called my vet and told him this-my holistic vet is in Florida so we deal with this by telephone.Anyway I told him what was going on with my horse and he suggested maybe my horse had an abcess-so I pretty much said the hell with him. After treating him for EPM and Lymphangitis he thinks he may have an abcess. I felt as though he wasnt exactly paying attention to the problem. Today my horse has a normal looking sheath on the left side but the right side is still swollen. The swelling seems to be dropping down towards the tip and is somewhat hard. It is much better than it has been in the past but not normal. He is basically crippled in the hind end---both sides.I had a chiroprator work on him about 10 days ago because from being lame for so long and all the compensation he was out. When he trots it is with his nose in the dirt and when he lopes he does the bunny hop. Some days are worse than others-but he always runs around and plays. he has never had a temp during any of this-he is fat and has a shiny coat. I have noticed in the last week he doesnt like the right side of his face - his jaw- touched. I dont know if these problems are all related-I dont know what to think anymore. He gets fed about 4 pounds of oats per day and gets bermuda grass. He has a small pasture and I recently put a filter on his water system. He gets fed transfer factor Plus for his immune system and I have some more herbs on the way which are supposed to be great for the immune system. I have been told by some feed companies that he has autoimmune disease. A company called Bicom 200 states that if I send a sample of his blood they can tell me every organ that is effected and every parasite- bacteria and fungus he harbors. Sounds like magic to me-but at this point I dont know what to do.As a 2 year old thi shorse had EPm-before I bought him-and was treated and given a clean bill of health-free of neurological signs-4 months later. I have never had any problems with him until the swelling started last march. I have had him for 5 years.} I am sorry this is so long but I sure hope you can help me.If any one has ever experiened anything like this I would sure like to hear about it. I havent wormed my horse since novemeber because I am afraid to put anything in him. He used to get wormed every six weeks.He hasnt had any shots yet either but I am afraid to do that too. Thanx for the time.
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 4
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 22, 2005 - 4:59 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Today my horse had to sit like a dog before he could get up. I also had an equine nutritionist tell me the sores my horse had were actually an allergy and they itched him because of histamine in them-she said toxins were not leaving his body. She is also trying to sell her feed and supplement program-vitaroyal.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 12365
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 22, 2005 - 11:07 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Susan, none of the above makes any sense at all except one thing: something is seriously wrong and getting worse. Before your horse cannot get up at all, you need to get him on a trailer and take him to a university veterinary teaching hospital for a major evaluation and I think this needs to be done quickly.
DrO
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 5
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 23, 2005 - 1:26 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi- thanx for the reply. He has had blood work- ultra sounds- x-rays. He was at a major clinic here in Oklahoma and they didnt know what to do. Any ideas on where I can take him in Oklahoma . What do you think can be wrong?
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Vicki Zaneis
Member
Username: Vickiann

Post Number: 8
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 23, 2005 - 2:57 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Susan -- a horse of mine got a painfully swollen sheath once toward the end of a long course of procaine penicillin, which I was injecting him with due to a very bad wound that was hugely blown up. As soon as I stopped the penicillin the swelling went away. Some horses need sheath cleaning more than others and unfortunately they are often the ones who don't like having it done. Is there any chance you are bathing your horse with anything or spraying something on him that when he sweats or it rains could be running down onto his sheath causing an irritation? Is there any chance your horse in ingesting any weeds or plant matter that is toxic, either out in the pasture or in hay? With all those antibiotics your horse has been on his immune system is probably pretty stressed, not to mention the bute and herbals, etc. I am horrified to hear a Vet. suggested you blister your horse -- thought they were mostly avoiding that archaic practice these days. It is also pretty disturbing that this holistic Vet. is diagnosing something like this via telephone and sending you products to use. Just because something is herbal or natural doesn't mean it isn't toxic. One of my horses just got over a hugely swollen anal area. He was absolutely miserable, stomping his back foot, moving unevenly, suffering horribly. He was scrubbing it due to pinworms. I gave him a gram of bute twice a day for 2 - 3 days, but then when I talked to my Vet. to get results of fecals and was finally able to discuss the matter with him, he said to give the horse Banamine instead of Bute for that type of swelling (do NOT use the two things together unless your Vet has approved for a very short term). The Banamine worked wonders, and in a day the swelling was all gone. I would be inclined to throw out all that holistic stuff you got, but that is just my personal opinion. Another thing that brought relief for both of the horses (one swollen anal area and the other swollen sheath) was hosing it with cool water. One other thought -- especially if you haven't wormed for quite some time, is the possibility of fly larvae burrowing into the inside of the sheath area. I have see this larvae cause a problem on a stallion's penis. My books on this subject are up in my barn but it is called something like habroema -- don't think that is quite the correct name. It is a cause of summer sores when a type of fly lays their eggs in a small open sore or moist area. As the larvae develop they cause a lot of irritation, itching and swelling and can sometimes become infected and need to be removed surgically. One of my horses gets these sometimes but it has always been in locations (where he had a small break in the skin) that allowed me to treat them topically. Ivermectin wormer is what kills these larvae, but in any case, the larvae has to either be killed and removed, or -- if left inside it will eventually mature and fall out. Then what happens is the situation occurs over and over again with larvae developing into flies, laying eggs again. Hard to imagine the jaw and sheath would be from the same problem but would be inclined to have an examination by an equine dentist for a sore jaw. Good luck with your horse and hope you get to the bottom of this mystery soon.
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Angie Judson
Member
Username: Ajudson1

Post Number: 172
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 23, 2005 - 5:23 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Susan,

I so hope you find some answers; please try another large vet place that specializes in horses.

I had a beautiful Arab gelding we raised from conception. He never had any swelling until after he was gelded. IMO something was botched in the gelding, but what I don't know. The swelling never went down, but it did vary in how bad it was. It was uncomfortable for him to run & turn proper as it seemed his backend couldn't get under him. Because of this I only rode him at a walk and trot for fear he would fall otherwise.

He did fall, in a bad way. At about age 7 he was taking a nice canter around the pasture and his front leg snapped. Most likely the compensating for the swelling and discomfort in his sheath and hind quarters had put undue strain on the leg that broke.

So basically for about 6 yrs he was in the condition similar to what you are experiencing. Antibiotics, herbals, and bute or banamine didn't help. Cleaning his sheath didn't change anything either. Running cold water on him, trying to exercise the swelling down, same result...No change.

I did read somewheres that a botched gelding job could somehow affect lymph nodes (??) and cause the swelling. But I don't recall the details of the article, or what to do as it was after mine horse was gone.

Don't rule out the allergy thing; I say that because my gelding had a case of severe hives once. It was late winter so hard to figure what could of caused it as they weren't on pasture so no chemicals were around. But he was so bad off I thought someone had attacked him with a baseball bat. He breathing was very labored. We gave him a huge dose of human Benedral, per vets instructions. Sorry I don't remember if this was after or before or during the sheath swelling.

Good luck, don't give up.

Angie
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Angie Judson
Member
Username: Ajudson1

Post Number: 173
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 23, 2005 - 5:33 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I also think you should really simplify what this horse is ingesting and add some probiotics, sometimes we do more harm than good trying to help our horses get healthy. It sounds like he's been thru a helluva lot of different things with herbals, bute, antibiotics etc.
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 6
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 23, 2005 - 5:50 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Vicki-
Hi and thanx for input. My horse has always been the kind of horse to get a dirty sheath- but he has always been cleaned regular.When he was getting cleaned real regular at the vets-weekly-and they put meds on it it finally lost that smell and has stayed clean since. The sheath swelling and the lameness all started before he was treated with any antibiotics, it was after shots- so I have been told it was a reaction and he has autoimmune disease. I took him off of the antibiotics-Jan 18th--because he appeared to be getting worse- once I did that he improved slightly. He is a lot better than he was 2 months ago-this has been going on for a year now-on and off. I have spent thousands of dollars trying to get to the bottom of this. I have said to the vets all along that I think something is inside of him-growing or something. He is on an immune system supplement-its called transfer factor plus-it is supposedly used for cancer in humans. I assumed all the antibiotics suppressed his immune system. He had always been wormed every six weeks- the entire 5 years I have owned him-I havent wormed him since november but I dropped a fecal off at the vets to be checked today. It would sure be nice to know what I am dealing with here. Its just so wierd because he is fat- has a normal temp- big dapples- healthy looking-good appetite-he runs and bucks-he just cant do it soundly-drinks lots of water---I am baffled! I am making an appointment at OSU-hopefully they can help me get to the bottom of this. Thanx
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 7
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 23, 2005 - 5:58 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi angie-
My horses diet is pretty simple- he eats oats-bermuda hay-and a supplement that does contain probiotics. My horse was gelded as a 2 year old-before I owned him-- and he was a cryptorchid so he had to have surgery to remove both testicles from his abdomen. I mentioned this to the vets as to if it could be a problem-6 years later-they said No. He has been thru a lot-poor boy. OSU is the 3rd major equine hospital he will be going to-so wish me luck!!!!!! Thanx
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 12376
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 23, 2005 - 11:47 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Oklahoma would be my recomendation Susan. Let us know what they find.
DrO
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 8
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Thursday, Mar 24, 2005 - 9:27 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanx so much--------to everyone! I will keep you all informed. I think he may have stones-some of the stories I read are a little familiar.I just pray its something that CAN be fixed.
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Vicki Zaneis
Member
Username: Vickiann

Post Number: 11
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Thursday, Mar 24, 2005 - 8:10 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

What a struggle you are having with the health of this beloved horse. And if you are like me, all the health concerns, and suffering right along with your horse, cause you to grow more attached to him. When I am trying to get to the bottom of a problem, I try to do research thorougly, to examine any and ALL possibilities. You may want to read an article in "The Horse" magazine for April on Pigeon fever (nothing to do with pigeons) as this can cause sheath swelling problems that come and go -- especially if antibiotics have been used. (A blood test sent to either UC Davis or Texas A & M for serologic testing for antibodies to C.pseudotuberculosis is helpful for a diagnosis. The bacteria is "Corynebacteria" and it causes internal abscesses that if treated with antibiotics, prolong the problem. If present, it must be lanced and drained at the right time. A horse's immune system has a lot to do with his susceptibility to this problem. All best wishes -- let us know how you make out! My heart is with you as you work toward a positive outcome.}
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 9
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Thursday, Mar 24, 2005 - 9:46 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Vicki-
Hi again-I made an appointment at Oklahoma State University today for my horse. I thought I had been dealing with good vets-I am from NJ and moved to Oklahoma 2 years ago.I-in reality- did deal with good vets---they just couldnt find me an answer-that happens-its just so frustrating when you feel you are doing all you can and spend so much money to come up empty handed. I read a lot about pigeon fever----well I read a lot about all I can find--I have spent about 4 hours a nite on PC after work-between work- when ever---- trying to find my own answers. I just can never find anything that totally pertains to my horse-------he has always had a normal temp-hasnt lost a pound- infact he is getting to fat but lives on air. Everything I read about pigeon fever-the swelling is in the chest-----I cant wait to just find out what is going on. I talked to the vet today- I have an all day appointment-----so we can discuss everything. He told me he cant promise me that he will find what is wrong-but they are going to do extensive blood work. Thanx so much for listening-its nice to know people care as much as I do. If you go to www.sdoubleu.byregion.net you can see a pic of my Whiz before he got like this. He is still just as gorgeous-he just cant move real good- poor baby
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Julie Masner
Member
Username: Juliem

Post Number: 78
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Thursday, Mar 24, 2005 - 10:28 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Ditto to Vicki's post. I was reading that article and thought of your horse immediately. The article mentions that if an abcess is internalized in the groin area it results in swelling and hind limb lameness. You may be able to access this article online. The Horse is a publication of the Association of American Equine Practicioners. TheHorse.com is the web site I believe. As I say, it sure brought your horse and his problems to my mind. Good luck and keep us posted.
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Vicki Zaneis
Member
Username: Vickiann

Post Number: 13
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Thursday, Mar 24, 2005 - 10:47 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

We need to be aware that diseases often are "atypical" and do not manifest entirely as described. Let us know how things unfold for you, and certainly hope for a good outcome for you and your beautiful horse.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 12384
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Friday, Mar 25, 2005 - 8:57 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Ditto on the keep in touch susan.

I need to correct Julie. TheHorse is not a AAEP publication or a publication by any veterinary organization. Articles are sometimes written by veterinarians and even read by veterinarians, primarily so they know what their clients are reading. They are part of what are called AAEP partners along with other publications, drug companies, and equine service providers.
DrO
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 10
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Friday, Mar 25, 2005 - 3:37 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi again-
I am taking my horse to the vet--again- and he is going to do extensive blood work on Monday and an abdominal belly tap. Is there a test that is specific for Corynebacteria. If we cant find anything this way we are going to put him under anesthia and do an ultrasound to find out whats inside. Thanx everybody. Will let you all know as soon as I find something out.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 12393
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Saturday, Mar 26, 2005 - 8:29 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Yes there are specific blood tests for C. pseudotuberculosis (Pigeon Fever) for more on this and other aspects of this disease see, Equine Diseases » Skin Diseases » Swellings / Localized Infection / Abscesses » Pigeon Fever, Dryland Strangles, & Distemper.
DrO
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 11
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Monday, Mar 28, 2005 - 9:36 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi again-
Took my horse back to the equine center today. I told them I specifically didnt want lamenes evaluation-think the lameness is coming from the sheath-but they are the vets not me-----so we had to finish the lameness with blocks-he was still crippled after all this.The big long needle they stuck in my horses hip to block, broke my heart-my Whiz is so dramatic-he doesnt breath when he gets twitched-and he shuts his eyes and makes noises like he is being bludgeoned to death-hurts me more to watch him than it probably hurts him. Anyway- they did a CBC fibrinogen-no problems. They did a ultrasound of the sheath- good- rectal- good- ultrasound rectal= good. We have to wait for some blood tests they had to send off and if that shows nothing we are going to do a bone scan-my request from a post I saw in here-----and if nothing- then internal ultrasounds to find something. I told them -again-about his cryptorchid surgery -and they think there may be some scar tissue. I told them about this on my first visit -but they dont remember. What do you think--------DRo and anyone reading!!!!!
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 12414
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 29, 2005 - 8:14 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Susan, I think we still do not know what is causing the sheath swelling and lameness in your horse and at this time must wait until all the testing is done before we decide on our next step.

Has anyone considered a saddle thrombus of the terminal aorta? It explains both symptoms and if not looked for specifically on the transrectal ultrasound, for more see, Equine Diseases » Cardiovascular, Blood, and Immune System » Saddle (Aortic-Iliac) Thrombus.
DrO
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 12
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 29, 2005 - 3:29 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

The vets do not know and they dont really seem to be too hopeful in finding the reason. I will ask my vet when I talk to him later- he did the rectal ultrasound and said he didnt see anything different anywhere- but I will ask him about Thrombus. I called my horses prior owner today so she could give permission to have his health records released to me. She got quite touchy when I mentioned needing information on his cryptorchid surgery-she stated today that he didnt have surgery-he was a cryptorchid and they just had to go up further in him. The vets dont have record of the surgery.Before I purchased him they told me he was sold for $35,000 as a stud and he never dropped. They said he had to have surgery to remove both testicles from his abdomen-and now she states he never had surgery. How do you non-surgically remove testicles from the abdomen??? I think there is something I was never told about this horse and it has to do with problems today.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 12425
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 30, 2005 - 7:03 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I think she is now saying the testicles where high in the inguinal canal, therefore could be removed through a standard castration technique with exploration of the inguinal canals. This is not too unusual.
DrO
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 13
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Thursday, Mar 31, 2005 - 8:59 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

All the other blood work on my horse came back fine. I am taking him in today and they are going to put him on the table and do an ultrasound. They are getting in a new machine today that goes much deeper into the horse-so hopefully we will find something. Let you know. Thanx
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 14
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Thursday, Mar 31, 2005 - 8:58 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi-
Nothing showed up at all on the ultrasound. The vet did see the scars from the castration-------one on each side of sheath and said this was a very unusual way to geld a cryptorchid. But nothing showed up inside-etc. He checked for saddle thrombis with rectal----------all was good. Now what------- a bone scan in the next couple of weeks. I am so unsure as to what to do.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 12452
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Friday, Apr 1, 2005 - 7:03 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Susan what are you unsure about, it sounds like you are doing what you can at this time. If you are worried about the outcome I can understand there is nothing worse than not knowing but take heart that you are doing all you can.
DrO
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Chole Rackley
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Username: Chole

Post Number: 2
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Friday, Apr 1, 2005 - 12:23 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Susan, have they done a blood test for EPM and done a neurological exam (similar to lameness exam but with significant differences)? I only mention it b/c my horse had an undiagnosed hind end lameness and after going through a month of diagnostics, EPM appears to be the issue. Wishing you the best of luck in figuring out how best to help your horse. Chole
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Angie Judson
Member
Username: Ajudson1

Post Number: 175
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Friday, Apr 1, 2005 - 12:27 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Susan,

My prayers and thoughts are with you as you search for an answer for your poor boy. I am still hoping you find an answer as that will also shed some light on what happened to my gelding a few yrs. back. I hope your outcome is better than mine was, but sometimes there arn't any answers.

Would an sample of some tissue from the area tell anything? Has that been done?

Angie
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 15
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Friday, Apr 1, 2005 - 4:54 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

They havent done a test for EPM as the vets dont think that is the problem-------- the sheath swelling is the mystery. All of his bloodwork has been fine. He did have EPM as a 2 year old. When I called a holistic vet-after my vets gave up- he said it sounded like EPM and he is still taking the treatment he sent me. His sheath looks much better than it did before. I went back to my other vets-after getting on this site and told them they needed to do more-thats why the extensive blood work and the ultrasound. I wanted to make sure I wasnt neglecting anything. The vets said he obviously didnt have a life threatening issue so I could let him rest for a couple of weeks and see if he continues to slowly progress- then do a bone scan. I wish there were a giant MRI machine to just run his whole body thru. I have mentioned the EPM issue quite a few times and it doesnt seem to be of concern to them. The vets told me that a bone scan was the last thing they knew of to do right now-------this is just one of those cases that we may never find the answer too. I met a girl at the vets yesterday and it took them 4 years to discover her horses source of lameness. I am just doing what the vets say for now and pray something shows up.
They did clean his sheath yesterday and it was pretty dirty again--but the foul smell he used to have is gone. He had that smell ever since I owned him. So maybe the smell he had- has something to do with his problem. They treated him for a prepupice infection initially. The vets havent done any neurological testing -- I have done some of the simple tests I read about myself on him. I will cross his feet and he does know where they are-and uncrosses them. He can back up with his head tilted up in the air. He pulls aginst you when you pull his tail. I dont remember where i read about these simple tests-but I would think a horse with EPM would be more unbalanced. Yesterday after he came out of anesthesia the girl told me he was really smart- he layed there and waited until he thought he could get up- and he got up properly- the first try. She said a lot of horses cant get up the first try after being put out. I think if he was neurological he couldnt do that. I dont know but they seem to think I shouldnt worry about it. I will continue to research and check here everyday incase someone has a similiar story or can help me.
DrO------Thanx for the kind words-I am doing all I know-and yes it is frustrating wondering what could possibly be going on with my horse.
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 16
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 5, 2005 - 9:01 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I was reading an article in the American Farriers Journal-March 05- about limb length disparity. I was told by a farrier about 3 months ago that my horses left front was shorter than his right. From the article my horse does exhibit most signs from this--his left front foot is narrower with a higher heel.His right foot is wide and a bit underslung. His shoulders arent even and his glutes on right side are atrophied. This doesnt explain the swollen sheath-which is improving but I thought it would be worth a try. I brought this to the vets attention and they didnt even comment on it. Anyone had this experience before. Thanx!!!!!!!
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Holly Wood
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Username: Hwood

Post Number: 594
Registered: 3-2001
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 5, 2005 - 10:17 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I have had experience with this in several horses, Susan. Just as we often wear down the heel of one shoe more that we do the other, (due to one side being stronger or some crookedness in our bodies) horses do the same to their feet. I think it is rare for the average horse to have both front feet perfectly the same, or both hind feet perfectly matched. I have had older horses with chronic arthritis or old injuries who have, over time, changed the shape of one foot dramatically (lower on one heel, worn hoof on the inside or outside, one foot larger than the other). It is an important clue in evaluating the overall balance of movement in a horse. Just changing the shape of the misshappen hoof doesn't guarantee balance, though . . . and CAN exacerbate the situation. If you have a vet and farrier who will work together on the evaluation and correction, it may be better for your horse.

Whether or not your horse's hoof shape is a symptom of whatever is happening in his hind end, I don't know, but if he has had soreness for a long time, he will compensate in his movement, and changes will take place in his feet/legs.
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susan
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Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 17
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 5, 2005 - 4:02 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi hollywood------We are going to try and put a lift pad on the short leg.We are not going to try and change the shape of his feet-if the lift pad corrects the problem we believe his feet will make changes on their own-as he wont be compensating so much. I have had him 5 years and his front feet have always been shaped as they are now. I started riding him more after I moved to Oklahoma- and the problems started about a year after that. I thought the extra riding could be a contributing factor in the lameness-compensation problem. I am just searching for all possible angles to find out his problem. I dont know if this has anything to do with the sheath swelling-but-I do know that he travels different in his hind end now-he swings both legs inward on forward movement-and his hind feet are wore uneven. I will let you all know-Thanx------
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 18
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Thursday, Apr 7, 2005 - 10:04 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi all-
Today we worked on my horses feet. Originally we were looking at his left front being short----different farrier-then we started on his feet and came up--------by measurements-his right hind. Went to shoeing supply store to get lifts- pads- etc-and talked to farrier there with 36 years experience. Ended up putting a leather pad on horses right front-----my horse has glutes lower on right side----scapula lower also-right side. Anyway--------for the first time since I have owned the horse he actually put his head on the ground to eat w/o doing it like a foal. He can actually get his head on the ground w/o all the extension of the one front foot-the left one. I dont know if this has anything to do with the problems he is having-but -------it is all worth a try. We measured and he is level -with the leather pad. If u just look at his feet -he looks totally unbalanced---coronets are not even- but the leg is.I never measured before-till tonight. I have always said my horse looked uneven from riding-and the saddle started slipping ot the right.Thought it was just me---! Imagine if this $3.75 pad fixes this whole problem. Could I be so lucky----------any input-DrO???????????????
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 12515
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Friday, Apr 8, 2005 - 10:16 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Not being able to examine the horse I just have to wait and see what develops susan. This idea of a "short" leg on one side has been around about 20 years...ummmm...Tony somebody introduced it to me and a mutual friend who is an equine chiropracter was a big proponent and had me look at lots of cases where he thought this was going on. Often horses will unload a side in response to pain but I have better luck treating the source of the pain. I have never found such a case where building up the short side made sense to me, but let us know how well this works for you.
DrO
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 19
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Saturday, Apr 9, 2005 - 9:04 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi-
It will sure be a simple solution if this is the case, the one leg being shorter. Since the vets havent been able to locate the problem - or source of pain----I am hoping this farrier can help me. He has worked on thousands of horses and has positive results doing this. I know that I have one foot that is a little bit bigger, I have a friend who has to wear a pad in one shoe because one leg is longer than the other. If she doesnt wear this pad her back kills her and causes her great pain. I am in hopes this will fix his problem. His sheath is still swelled and he is still lame-but he didnt get that way over night so I am going to give this a little bit of time. As I stated earlier-he can graze like a normal adult horse now-he has never done that in the 5 years that I have owned him. He has never been able to get his head down on the ground with his front feet together. I will just have to wait and see. Hopefully something good will come of this.
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 20
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Monday, Apr 11, 2005 - 8:59 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

DrO-
What are the side effects of Marquis. The vets do not seem to think he has EPM-but I still wonder. There is no sense in testing him because he will test positive- regardless of if he has it or not. (I was told this by a vet since he had EPM before ) If I gave him Marquis and he doesnt actually have EPM-will it hurt him in any way. I also want to give him his spring shots-but am half afraid it will create further problems. What do you think? Thanx so much!
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 12551
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 12, 2005 - 8:34 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Yes Marquis is potentially toxic, for more see Equine Diseases » Nervous System » Incoordination, Weakness, Spasticity, Tremors » EPM, Equine Protozoal Myeloencephalitis.
DrO
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 21
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 12, 2005 - 8:58 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanx------I guess I wont be giving him marquis-I sure dont want to put any more toxins into his body than he already had to deal with.I thought I read somewhere that it was safe and had no side effects!!! What do you think about giving him his shots? What would you recommend? Yesterday he was loping around his pen pretty normal looking for quite a ways-then the RH limp came back-but at least he was normal for quite a few strides. I am going to give him about 2 weeks with this pad and see how he progresses.
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 22
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Friday, Apr 15, 2005 - 3:34 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Do you have any thoughts on what shots he should have at this point. I was told -by one vet- that the sheath swelling was a reaction to shots and he had autoimmune disease-and he shouldnt have any shots. What do you suggest? Thanx so much!
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 12597
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Saturday, Apr 16, 2005 - 10:35 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I posted to your earlier request susan but it did not make it up I see. I think the idea that the swelling is caused by vaccinations is plumb crazy. However the idea that vaccinations could make the swelling worse is not. If the swelling is related to the immune system, vaccinations create a general stimulus to it. In both the case of the Marquis and the vaccinations, someone who can examine the horse and familiar with the risks of disease in your area has to weight the benefits and risks. From your posts above I really do not think EPM likely but don't know if your horse is at risk for those diseases you vaccinate for. See the article on vaccine reactions for ideas on how to lessen them if you and veterinarian choose to vaccinate.
DrO
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 24
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Friday, Apr 22, 2005 - 9:59 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi again-
My horse has had the pad on his RF now for 15 days and he has been on the herbal supplemnt for 24 days. He is moving just a bit better everyday. He lopes a lot more in his pen than he was. He is still not sound and still not extending all the way but there is improvement. I am going to take him back to the vets-with my farrier- so they can evaluate together the limb disparities. And also to discuss vaccinations with the vets. I dont know exactly what is working here but there is improvement- my vets dont seem to think it is EPM either-which is obviously a good thing. The herbs I give him are for the immune system and to help regenerate nerves-maybe its a combination of the herbs and the pad?
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 12656
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Sunday, Apr 24, 2005 - 11:24 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Or maybe what ever else is wrong is healing with time. I tend to discount leveling "uneven legs" and nonspecific herbal therapy but if you think they are helping susan, I would not stop as long as they are not doing harm.
DrO
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 25
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Friday, May 6, 2005 - 9:17 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

HI again-
I took Whiz in for a bone scan on Tuesday. Seems for some odd reason the isotope ( not sure of spelling ) didnt disperse in his body so they had to do it again. The vet at OSU said that either it was a bad batch of isotope or something really bizarre is going on with my horse. He said it could either be heart failure-liver failure-but not to worry ( how do I not ) because my horse looks so healthy he didnt think that was really possible. I am supposed to be able to pick him up today.If they say he can travel we are going back to the east coast. I have horse hotels lined up so he doesnt have to be in the trailer for more than 10 hours a day.Oklahoma has been toxic to the both of us. Hopefully time will heal whatever is going on with him.
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 26
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Friday, May 6, 2005 - 8:23 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Picked up Whizzy---------the isotope (whatever) dispersed as it was supposed and my horse has no bone problems. OK-where do we go from here. OSU said start all over-I have used my $5000 worth of insurance money-where do we start anyway- More lameness exams- flexion tests-blocks-seems like a waste of money to me. I asked the vet what he thought about it being EPSM------except for not losing weight my horse has a lot of the signs. He often -- not as much as usual- tucks his hind legs up to belly- as if he hurts- like a spasm. I have recently changed his diet to a very high fat -high fiber diet. I mix 50 lbs of Ultium with 50 lbs race track oats and he gets bermuda hay- low quality-- and pasture. I am also going to have an abdominal tap on him to check fluids. Why none of this was done-i dont know-but we are off to NJ. Anybody want to buy a nice 15" rope saddle? Dro-------any comments?????????
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 12781
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Friday, May 6, 2005 - 9:45 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

On the physical exam what clinical problems has OSU identified susan? Is he lame and if so what leg. Are there any other identified problems. These will be on your take home sheet.
DrO
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 27
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Saturday, May 7, 2005 - 9:13 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I was referred to OSU for the bone scan by my vet I have been using because they didnt have the machine. All they did was say he is obviously lame on RH-which is where it all started months ao. They said he is off in his entire body and suggested I just start from scratch-very disappointing to me as I am out of insurance money.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 12789
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Saturday, May 7, 2005 - 9:59 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Good at least we have a clear problem: RH lameness, let's ignore the vague stuff. If you wish to try a EPSM diet first that is fine. But remember that it is not so much a high fat diet as a low carb diet, see the article for more.

If that does not work I would start with the RH lameness and have a complete exam done. I would like to have it done by University or a very good referral hospital. The reason you repeat it is because sometimes different folks are able to find things others have not.
DrO
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 28
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Monday, May 9, 2005 - 8:31 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Where is the EPSM article-I will read it . His diet now is high fat and fiber.
I read an article the other day about a horse that exhibited the same problems as my horse. They did an abdominal ultrasound and the horses large intestine was a bit displaced putting pressure on a nerve- or something. Anyway- what do you think of that. If they scanned his abdomen maybe they could find something. If he had a abcess or tumor- would it show up.
When I get to NJ we will be going to New Bolten. Every block that could be done has been done to my horses RH and nothing.
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 29
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Monday, May 9, 2005 - 8:54 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi again-
I found some EPSM articles and a lot of these things sound so much like my horse. I have had him 5 years and he has never been real good for the farrier behind. It is hard for him to stand that long on 1 leg and he likes his leg held down low. Recently he just wants to sit on farrier. He also pulls his hind legs up to his belly-as in a spasm. He will shift his weight back and forth on his hind end. Ever since I have owned him he has felt funny to the right but I always attributed it to more of a training problem. His hind end muscles are very hard to keep supple. He is presently on a feed called Ultium and I mix it with race horse oats. Should I gradually switch him to alfalfa pellets with oil. What kind of oil? I am going to try this. Is it possible that it would take this long for it to surface this way-I hope so-because then I have hope.
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Susan Bilsky
Member
Username: Suzeb

Post Number: 383
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Monday, May 9, 2005 - 12:01 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi susan,
Sorry to hear that you are having all this trouble.
You can find information on Dr.O's site; see
Equine Diseases>>Lameness>>Muscle and Tendon Diseases>>Tying Up, Rhabdomyolysis, and Shivers (EPSM)
You can also check out www.ruralheritage.com
Another reference that will lead you to the same site is: www.draftresource.com/EPSM/Draft_EPSM.html

I suppose if you wanted to have any more testing done, you could do a muscle biopsy. That would certainly tell you for sure if this is the problem.

Good Luck,

Susan B.
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 30
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Monday, May 9, 2005 - 2:42 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Susan-
Thanx for the sites. I talked to my Dr here in Oklahoma today and he knows a real good ultrasound vet back east that he is going to send all my horses records to. She is at New Bolten which is where I was going to take him anyway. I am going to first have an abdominal ultrasound done and if nothing shows up there a muscle biopsy. This poor guy- something has to give. Another thing I think is wierd is that the only part of his body that did shed was his neck-where he wasnt blanketed at. But - on the other hand- the weather is wierd here--it can be a difference of 45 degress here between night and day sometimes. Thanx again-Susan
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 31
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 9:41 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I went into rural heritage and read articles about EPSM. Now I am afraid to take my horse on a long trip. The signs of EPSM are so much like what my horse does. I planned on going 500 miles a day and getting him a stall with turnout . I figure he will be in the trailer for about 10 hours a day. I have him started on the EPSM diet. Should I let him be on that for a few days. Dro-what are your thoughts. I dont want to cause my horse any more problems.
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 32
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 10:06 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi again-I know I am being a real pain here but I just remembered something else. Last June I took my horse to NJ-I made a 2 day trip of it. Stayed in NJ 1 week and turned around and came back-another 2 day trip. On the way back I stopped and checked my horse and he was trembling so bad I had to get him out of the trailer and walk him. Muscle spasms were all along his spine and hind quarters.I walked him and massaged him and let him rest-then continued the trip. This was in June- shortly after the lameness being showing up -was full blown in October.So now I am thinking that maybe I should have the biopsy done before I go-keep him on that diet let him wait a week and then go on my trip. Anybody- any experience on hauling a horse a long ways that does have EPSM for sure.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 12817
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 8:13 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

It may take several months before the muscle cells wash out the abnormal glycogen so if this is the problem you may want to wait a bit longer. How long have you been on a limited carbohydrate diet? You also might want to check muscle enzyme levels to see if they are normal.
DrO
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 33
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 11:41 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanx-I will have New Bolten check muscle enzyme levels when I take him for his ultrasound on Tuesday. Two days ago his hind end and all 4 legs broke out in little oozy eruptions. There were also quite a few on his tail bone which were extremely itchy to him. Any thoughts on what that could be. He has only been on the EPSM diet for about 2 weeks so I will continue that.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 12895
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 7:00 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I was thinking you might want to check enzyme levels before traveling and use it as a guide whether it might be safe to travel. There are many possibilities susan, we have an article on such skin at Equine Diseases » Skin Diseases » Hair Loss / Itching / Irritated Skin that helps differentiate the various causes.
DrO
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 34
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 10:20 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I am already back in NJ. I left last week and made a 3 day trip of it- traveling no more than 500 miles a day. The last couple of days Whiz is a lot better. He runs around his pasture---unsound- but without holding that RH up and hopping. As i said- he has an appointment Tuesday at new Bolten for an abdominal ultrasound. He is still quite swollen in the sheath area.I will check out the skin disease articles. Thanx!!!!
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 35
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 11:50 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I took Whiz in for his abdominal ultrasound. There was nothing out of the ordinary. They ultrasounded his sheath again and found his lymph nodes to be extremely vascular. They took a biopsy of one of the sores that broke out on his legs-which is just like the one that broke out of a lymph node under his throat. They took more blood work to send off to check for things that horses seem to get a lot of in Oklahoma. They think he may have a fungal infection that has been harboring for a long time. What are your thoughts on this DrO. They suggested I have a sodium chloride IV run thru him.
Thanx for the time.
Susan
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 12937
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 5:44 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Susan did they say sodium chloride or sodium iodide (a antifungal)? I think we will wait to see what the serology and biopsy yield.
DrO
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 36
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 10:17 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

she said sodium chloride---------said she hasnt treated a horse like that for over 20 years but it works. My horses lymph nodes looked like they had fireworks going off in them and appeared to have holes. I will let you know when I have any results at all. They told me biopsy test may take a couple of weeks-blood a week. Thanx again-Susan
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 12952
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 8:04 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Works against what Susan? Sodium chloride will not treat an internal fungal infection.
DrO
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 37
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 10:29 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Maybe she made a mistake in what she said- but that is what she told me-sodium chloride. I assumed it worked against the fungal infection. Does sodium iodine work against a fungal infection. I will call her and ask if that is what she meant.
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Bob Stack R.Ph.
Member
Username: Bobs

Post Number: 18
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 1:50 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dear Susan:
Potassium iodide and sodium iodide are used for topical fungal infections.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 12961
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 10:03 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Sodium iodide is also given orally and IV for certain fungal and resistant bacterial infections. As better specific treatments have come along you see this less but it is still used in some cases .
DrO
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 38
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 11:04 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

She said she meant sodium iodode. We are going to start treating him today. How long does it take for this to have results - if this is the real underlying problem. Thanx---susan
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 12994
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 1, 2005 - 7:15 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

It will depend on many factors susan and you may see nothing more than a stop in worsening of the swelling if there has been permanant damage to the lymphatics. The person who has actually examined the horse may be able to give you a better answer.
DrO
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 39
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Thursday, Jun 2, 2005 - 1:16 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Whiz had his first treatment last night and this morning his left pastern was swollen. He also has more sores on his legs that are breaking open. Any thoughts on that?
Thanx so much!!!!!!!
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 13028
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Friday, Jun 3, 2005 - 9:16 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Yes, you need to have your vet out to check these to see if the horse is tolerating the treatment systemically and check to see if these are an adverse reaction or incidental to the treatment. Let us know what they find.
DrO
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 40
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Friday, Jun 3, 2005 - 11:09 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

His leg is still swollen after the 2nd treatment last night. She-the local vet doing the treatment- said that maybe we should give him a break for a day and then continue. The vet at New Bolten told me even if he didnt have a bad fungal infection this treatment would cause no harm. This vet is away and unavailable. He ran and bucked when I turned him out in the pasture this morning . He is also very itchy.
I will let you know what she decides to do today----I am losing my mind over all of this.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 13034
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Friday, Jun 3, 2005 - 4:03 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I have had trouble finding any general information on IV sodium iodine therapy susan but despite many specific cases where it was used neither do I find any reports on adverse reactions to the treatment. These reactions may be an indication of killing microbes but since we still are not sure of the cause, who knows?
DrO
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 41
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Sunday, Jun 5, 2005 - 12:38 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

We went ahead and gave him the 3rd treatment. His legs arent as swollen but he is constantly itching. Its as if something is driving him crazy inside . We are going to put him on colloidal silver-any comments on that. I am still waiting for the vet that did the blood work and biopsy to get back in touch with me.
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Bob Stack R.Ph.
Member
Username: Bobs

Post Number: 25
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Sunday, Jun 5, 2005 - 2:10 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

The safest treatment for itch is ice or cold soaks.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 13054
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Monday, Jun 6, 2005 - 6:56 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

And what do you plan to do with the colloidal silver?
DrO
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Diane Edmonds
Member
Username: Scooter

Post Number: 151
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Monday, Jun 6, 2005 - 9:32 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi susan, I know your horse is young for this but alot of his symptoms sound like cushings. Not shedding properly, swollen sheath, vague hindend lameness, etc. Has he been tested for that? Just a thought. Good luck
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 42
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Monday, Jun 6, 2005 - 1:08 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dro- The colloidal silver is supposed to be good for internal infections--this is what the vets said-I do not know- thats why I ask.
He hasnt been checked for cushings. He has finally shed . I will mention this to my vet and see what she thinks.
I am going to try and reach the vet that did all the testing today.Maybe she has some answers from all the tests------I will let all know as soon as I find out.
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Bob Stack R.Ph.
Member
Username: Bobs

Post Number: 28
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Monday, Jun 6, 2005 - 2:24 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Humans can only use silver externally for infections. I assume it is the same with horses
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Lee
Member
Username: Paul303

Post Number: 495
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Tuesday, Jun 7, 2005 - 2:01 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Susan: Has a sample ever been cultured from inside the sheath? Has the sheath tissue been biopsied for lab analysis? If so, could you tell us the results? Has it been established if the sheath swelling is due to edema or infection or hyperplasia?
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 43
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Tuesday, Jun 7, 2005 - 10:01 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

The lymph nodes are to vascular to do a biopsy---the bleeding would be to severe unless he was put under general anesthia.This is what they told me. The vets said there is no sense of taking a culture inside the sheath because they would pick up too many other things and it wouldnt be worth it. They have not figured out what anything is. They are totally confused. They were thinking it was a fungal infection because of some of the things going on with my horse, basically the way the lymph nodes looked. They told me even if he didnt have a fungal infection giving him sodium iodide wouldnt hurt a thing. We treated him assuming he had one--its been going on so long there didnt seem to be any sense in waiting anymore. I am still waiting to hear the results from the biopsy they took off of his leg. He has small sores all over his legs and on his tail bone, which appeared after the sodium iodide.
As for the colloidal silver---------that is from a holistic vet--------I believe the name is Jing Teng. I cant wait to eventually get to the bottom of this. It seems the longer it goes on the less my chances of ever finding out.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 13086
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 8, 2005 - 10:07 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I don't see confusion susan, just not enough information: the swelling is due to a lymphadenopathy. The lymph does not clear through the lymph node easily so it backs up into the tissues. But we don't know the cause of the lymph node changes.

They say the problem is the lymph node is dangerous to biopsy so they are trying various therapies based on the information they have. In your first post on the iodine therapy there was a suggestion that there were already sores on the legs before treatment was this not true?
DrO
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 44
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 8, 2005 - 2:30 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Yes-he developed about 3 small sores on his legs and 2 on his hindquarters after he had a homeopathic treatment. He has many sores on his legs now and gets a few more on an almost daily basis. I still have not been able to reach the vet who did all the blood work and biopsy. Do you think these sores are a good thing ?????
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 45
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Thursday, Jun 9, 2005 - 11:00 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

My local vet called me and told me she was researching my horses problem. She said she thinks he has ------- I dont know how to spell this---- sporachurchosis ? She said the treatment is the sodium iodide--- so we are giving him another treatment tonight IV and then starting him on the oral administration. Where in this site can I find information on this. Thanx so much. Today Whiz is 8-Happy Birthday Whiz!!
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 13103
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Friday, Jun 10, 2005 - 11:36 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Sporothrix schenckii is a yeast (a type of fungus) that is occasionally the cause of skin and local lymphatic infections of horses. Here is a recent short case review. I think our article of Itraconazole lists it as one of the diseases it is effective against but in this study iodine was successful:

J Vet Diagn Invest. 2000 Mar;12(2):180-3.

Diagnosis of sporotrichosis in a donkey using direct fluorescein-labeled antibody testing.

Irizarry-Rovira AR, Kaufman L, Christian JA, Reberg SR, Adams SB, DeNicola DB, Rivers W, Hawkins JF.

Department of Veterinary Pathobiology, School of Veterinary Medicine, Purdue University, West Lafayette, IN 47907, USA.

A 4-year-old female donkey residing in an open field in Indiana was admitted for evaluation of facial lesions of 2 years duration. Cytologic and histologic examination of exudate and tissue from the lesions revealed a pyogranulomatous inflammatory reaction with numerous yeasts. Sporothrix schenckii was suspected to be the infectious agent; however, multiple culture attempts did not provide positive identification of the organism. Serologic examination supported infection with S. schenckii. A specific direct immunofluorescent antibody test performed on paraffin-embedded tissue sections confirmed the organism as S. schenckii. Clinical signs resolved after appropriate iodide therapy.


DrO
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 47
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Friday, Jun 10, 2005 - 11:56 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thank you so much-I now have a little hope. The vet at new bolten told me my horse had a very guarded prognosis because it has been going on for so long. His blood work all came back negative and the fungal tests didnt really explain anything. My horse got a dose of IV iodide last night and he is starting the oral today. They told me it was cheap but as much as they say he is to take it sure adds up. I just hope this helps him. I was told to put him on it for 3 months-but also that he will get real scabby. Cant I do something to prevent that? Thanx again.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 13213
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Friday, Jun 24, 2005 - 9:56 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I am afraid it is a unavoidable consequence of iodine treatment.
DrO
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 48
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Sunday, Jun 26, 2005 - 10:26 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

So far he isnt scabby but he hasnt been on the treatment for that long. Yesterday he loped all the way across the field w/o having to pick up the right hind, I took that as a very good sign. But when he walks he is unsound looking. His sheath is bigger on the right side than before the iodine. I guess I just need to give it the recommended 4 months. I need to find a place to purchase this stuff for cheaper. He has to get 11 ounces a day-which seems like an awful lot to me. Does anyone know where to purchase neogen at a good price?? Thanx for the help.
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 49
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Friday, Jul 1, 2005 - 3:51 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Now my horse has swelling on the right side of his rectum. It starts right at his rectum and goes down about 4 inches. It doesnt seem to hurt him. I have to call my vet tonight-but what do you think this could be-associated with the initial problem- or a new one. Where he walks so out of balance------- could that be it?????
He has had 2 internal rectal ultrasounds and there was not a problem.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 13276
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Saturday, Jul 2, 2005 - 10:14 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I could only guess on the cause Susan but I don't think it has to do with the way he walks. Let us know what the vet says. For more on swelling Equine Diseases » Skin Diseases » Swellings / Localized Infection / Abscesses » Diagnosing and Assessing Swellings in Horses.
DrO
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 50
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 9, 2005 - 7:26 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I have taken my horse off of the sodium iodine after 6 weeks. He had terribly runny eyes and a nose with a thick green discharge and was very lethargic. He is worse than he was before. I am going to keep him off all the meds for awhile and put him on large doses of vitamin E. I am going to contact my holistic vet again as I am not getting any answers anywhere else. This was just a guess from new Bolten as they couldnt find anything else anyway. I am going to give him a year to get better and if he isnt any better I have to do something. he has no quality of life. I am gone from the house 14 hours a day and he is just hanging out in the pasture all alone-cant run buck and play or anything. I hate seeing him this way. he has a very aggressive appetite but doesnt gain weight. His weight is good -he just has no muscle tone at all anymore. I dont think he is very happy. What are your thoughts--continue iodine?
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 13502
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 10, 2005 - 7:15 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Because we cannot examine your horse Susan, we cannot make these type decisions but I can give you advice on how best to answer the question. Looking at the time frame it would seem that you have treated for 2 months with a month to go. If you think the treatment is causing remarkable problems why not have your veterinarian or New Bolton reevaluate the horse to decide whether to complete the therapy? They may agree with you.
DrO
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 51
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 10, 2005 - 4:55 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

My personnel vet here in my area did agree with me-stop all meds and use vitamins. New Bolten doesnt return calls. He just hasnt improved even 1% on the iodine--------I dont see the sense in continuing it at this point. His eyes and nose are so much better than when he was on the iodine that I dont want to continue. He has developed a cough the last few days but I will just get some store bought med for that. I dont think I am ever going to get to the bottom of this. Thanx for the time----Susan and Whiz
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 52
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Saturday, Oct 29, 2005 - 9:43 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Just a little update on Whiz. I had a vet from Austria-------a gift from my regular vet-come to my house and look at Whiz last Sunday. He said Whizzy had a blockage in his right side girth area which was pinching a nerve. He said that the reason his hind end was crippled was because of circulation. ( I never posted this on here as my vets didnt listen-but Whiz fell on me in Feb of 2004-on his left side----before the sheath swelling started on right side in March of 2004). This vet seems to think that this all started from that fall. The vet did accupuncture and chiro work. Whizzys sheath swelling has gone down by about 50% and he loped across the pasture yesterday. He is by far from sound-but an improvement. The vet told me he will never get to where I can show him but he should get to be trail riding sound. He said in chronic cases like this I will see the most improvement in 3-4 weeks. He suggested gold implants in his hind end to keep his circulation constantly going-seems there isnt much to do for a pinched nerve. Anyone ever heard of these implants?
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 14010
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Sunday, Oct 30, 2005 - 11:19 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

What does he believe is blocked on the right side of the girth, which nerve is pinched, and what sort of circulation problem does he propose. I suggested an aortic thrombus way above, which certainly would cause circulation problems and account for some of your symptoms, but believe it was ruled out by ultrasound.
DrO
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Angie Judson
Member
Username: Ajudson1

Post Number: 291
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Sunday, Oct 30, 2005 - 11:28 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Susan,

If you may remember I had a similar problem with my Arab gelding so I've been following your posts. I find your latest findings very interesting as my gelding did have a fall that I'd forgotten about. He jumped over over a 3 board fence, and landed on his side, on his shoulder more than anything if I remember correctly. This was right before he was gelded, so I guess that's why I thought the gelding part may have been botched it.

Anyhow I thought I'd share that with you. I am very curious to see how this turns out now for you!! Your persistance is amazing and hopefully it's paying off now.
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 53
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Monday, Oct 31, 2005 - 7:27 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Yes-the thrombosis was ruled out by an ultrasound. He did not say which nerve. I will have to get my regular vet to ask him. He also did energy work on Whiz. He prescribed 2 homeopathic remedies which I picked up today--------Silicea and Rhus Tox. I know a lot of people dont beleive in homeopathics-but this man has done more for my horse than anyone has so far-so I am going to try these remedies. Yesterday I got on Whiz-bareback- and took him for a little walk around the soft pasture-he loved it. Angie-thanx for following my case-I appreciate it. I sure hope I reach the end of all of this someday-at least we found something to go on. It all makes sense to me now. I didnt think it hurt Whiz when he fell, but all of his problems happened after that and have been slowly building to what he is now. When the vet from Austria did chiro work on Whiz his neck only cracked on one side-his right side. After he was done working on him his body was so much softer-and still is. I will keep everyone informed of what is going on and if anyone else has ever had similiar problems-please let me know.Thanx so much!!!
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estella
Member
Username: Chellis6

Post Number: 6
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Monday, Oct 31, 2005 - 10:43 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hello Susan I have been reading your post and feel for you . Just keep up in searching for a answer. As you wrote know a lot of people dont beleive in homeopathics I believe in herbs. And was just wondering if your vet has a email address. I would love to ask him a few questions. As for the herbs which herbs are you giving him.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 14022
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Tuesday, Nov 1, 2005 - 6:30 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

It is not that there is lack of support for homeopathic preparations susan. It is that there is no known physical, chemical, or biological method by which they can work on living systems. Homeopathy is a form of magic like witchcraft.
DrO
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 54
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Tuesday, Nov 1, 2005 - 9:46 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Estella--------I will try to find out the email address for my vet from Austria. I am giving my horse Silicea and Rhus Tox. The company for this is www.homeopathworks.com The really wierd thing about this vet that looked at my horse is he prescribed some things for me and I never asked for this or made comments about myself. My home town vet told me tonight that the vet from Austria said I should take Lycopodium which is for digestion. I was diagnosed with diverticulosis a few years ago and ulcers. How would he know this - the magic part--I was told not to look into his eyes as he tries to read you. Regardless of any of it----my horse has improvement. He is less spooky than he has been the last couple of weeks- his sheath is less swollen and his body is softer. I am just trying to find an answer to my horses problems and I appreciate all who pay attention and care. I am going to give Whizzy this homeopathic for 60 days and see. It will be the cheapest part of what I have done so far. As I said before-maybe I didnt post it here-but my insurance company has a clause on him and they want me to put him down- well they suggested it so I could collect within their time limit since it has been going on so long--that is BS-------I will not put Whizzy down as long as he can get around and is half way happy. They can have their money. Keep in touch everyone-I will let you know how it is going!!!!!!!
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 55
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Monday, Jan 9, 2006 - 2:05 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hello again-------just want an opinion from DRo-or anyone that cares to give me their opinion. Obviously I still havent found the true source of whizzys problem. But-I think maybe we have been looking in the wrong part of my horse. The vets have looked into the right hind end as that is where the problem has been visually evident. Whizzy has been out in the pasture for the last 7 months and I havent had his feet trimmed for quite sometime because I wanted to see how he was wearing his hooves. Both hooves on the right hand side are smaller than the ones on the left. The left front is bigger than all of them. To me this says he is using his left front less than any other part of his body-he seems to be carrying the weight on the right side. Before all of this started my horse fell on his left side---shoulder area hitting first and hardest. I have been using the biofind and the lights on him-the biofind picks up lots of points in his left shoulder. I know Dro doesnt believe in the biofind-but regardless-do you think it is possible that the problem originated in the left front and it showed up in the right rear because of compensation. I am thinking maybe he has some nerve damage. He is very OUCHY in the left brachiocephalicus and an area in his pecs. I think I am onto something here, it may be too late to fix anything but I am looking forward to some opinions. Thanx-susan
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Holly Wood
Member
Username: Hwood

Post Number: 918
Registered: 3-2001
Posted on Monday, Jan 9, 2006 - 2:31 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Very interesting, Susan.

Do you mean the right hooves are shorter or smaller? If the left hooves are wider and flatter, I would think that THEY are the ones holding the weight, but maybe I have it backwards. If the left hooves have longer walls, then it seems that the right hooves must be wearing more which would seem to tell that the right side is doing more work.

I will say that I had an older pony mare given to me when I lived in Vermont. She showed definite signs of shoulder lameness, but that was the leg she held directly under her and on which she put her weight. She always pointed with the foot on the side that WASN'T lame.
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Shirley A. Johnson
Member
Username: Shirl

Post Number: 296
Registered: 2-2002
Posted on Monday, Jan 9, 2006 - 2:44 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Susan,
Wow! If that were my horse (Dr. O probably won't approve of this either, but here goes)I'd get a Vet who specializes in Chiropractic care, give him a good adjustment, maybe some massage, cause if something is out of place, lots of things can happen. What you are describing sounds like things are messed up.
Good luck, Shirl
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 56
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Monday, Jan 9, 2006 - 3:56 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi -
Hollywood- all hooves are pretty much the same in width-but the right ones are basically trimmed equal--by his use. The left hoof has a much longer toe-which to me meant he wasnt using that foot as much. He is very short strided in left hind-which I took as trying to hurry up and get the weight off of the left front? Shirley-whizzy has had a lot of chiro care -the most recent was in November-along with some accupuncture. I am a so-called-certified equine sports massage therapist-I say that because I know dro is laughing -I havent been massaging him lately because I wanted to see what his body would do if left alone-I was also mentally drained from trying to figure this out. I am going to start doing more massage -along with the lights. If you have any more thoughts I am more than happy to hear from all.
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Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose

Post Number: 1042
Registered: 1-2000
Posted on Monday, Jan 9, 2006 - 4:55 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

If he is short strided on the left rear, I would take it to maybe be indicative of a problem in the left hip, pelvis, or stifle area. Perhaps even the left hock. Have you noticed any problems, soreness, bumps, lack of development in these areas compared to his other side?
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Angie
Member
Username: Ajudson1

Post Number: 320
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Monday, Jan 9, 2006 - 7:51 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Susan,

I perked right up when I saw you were posting again and hoped you had some answers. As you may or may not recall, I had the same type of thing with a gelding of mine...posted waaay above this post.

What is really interesting is my horse also fell..on his shoulder! It was during weaning; he jumped a 3 board fence and got caught on top and fell over, landing on his shoulder first. And I remember my farrier commenting on how at least his one front hoof was bigger than the rest....Don't know what this all means, but it sure is amazing that things sound so much alike. I wish I had made it a point to write this stuff down, as to what shoulder it was, which hoof, how it coincided with the swelling....time frame between the fall, the gelding, the swelling sheath..etc.

BTW, what is "biofind"???

Is he comfy on pasture? Doing ok otherwise??

Angie
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 14480
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 10, 2006 - 8:55 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hello Susan,
The fact that he grows a long hoof is, like the Biofind, not a good way to localize lameness. Instead I would follow my suggestions in the article Equine Diseases » Lameness » Localizing Lameness in the Horse. I do find the Biofind a product that is based upon unproven technologies that strike me as the worse kind of hucksterism: it looks very professional.
DrO
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 57
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 10, 2006 - 11:28 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dro-I got just the type of response from you that I knew I would. But I will continue to use it-and yes it does look very professional. I feel a lot of vets and pharmaceutical companies do not like to acknowledge anything that may take away a few dollars from their own pockets. I have been using the professional vets from all over the country and one from out of the country. In the long run they all have a good guess-and after spending $8500 I am tired of the professional guessing game. And I am not saying this to be rude-but I do have an open mind-nothing is written in stone-so to speak. Some problems may just need time to cure themselves but this has been going on for over a year. Anyway Angie-yes he is doing Ok in the pasture-not sound--- but I believe he is comfortable-his eyes look soft and he doesnt appear to be in horrible pain-but I could be wrong-he may just have adapted to the pain. But even when he was put on bute he didnt get sound-so I dont know! Sara-he is very short strided on the left side-but the VETS at New Bolten Center in Pa said that he was short strided on that side because he was trying to hurry up and get the weight off the RH side-made sense-but they also told me they think he has sporatrichosis and damn near killed him treating him with iodine.Oklahoma State University didnt have a clue-they ran a dye thru him and took a picture of every bone in his body-what a waste of $1200 . And then they suggested that maybe we should start from scratch again--------- $$$$??? So I will continue to treat him with the lights and the professional looking bioscan systemand incorporating massage therapy. You know what is really strange-they dont claim these products to take the place of veterinary medicine-they advertise using them with your vets advice-its a shame $$$ controls so many opinions. I use the biofind on me-I have a finger that all the tendons tore in-when I scan that joint this biofind screams-how does it know there is a change in the surrounding tissue-whats the word------hucksterism. If any one would like to see what this product is you can go to www.omnilightled.com I appreciate everyone who understands my frustration and my concerns for my horse. I enjoy talking to everyone and being insulted by dro.
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Angie
Member
Username: Ajudson1

Post Number: 321
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 10, 2006 - 5:05 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Susan,

You and I are on the same page with the "professionals". They want proof, scientific evidence as DrO says. I always go back to the fact that so many things weren't "scientific" at one time, but now they have been proven. It just took someone with a different perspective, someone who kept plugging away until they got results that were accepted as "proof".

I think it's a shame that the medical profession (equine and human) is always happy to take our money, but how often do they do that, and someone like yourself has no answers yet??

There is something wrong with your horse. But how many have said they have no clue as to what until after the bill is rang up? So you go home until the next vet....

I have a husband who supports my horse habit but we both agree that there is a limit as to what to do financialy for health issues. We do what we can, but there a so many horses in this world that need a human to love. Reading about your experiences, I am like wow, talk about being dedicated to your horse. And double wow on the expense. But you may just find an answer, and be the one who solves the problem thru your persistance.

With all due respect to DrO., he does a great job of helping with so many vet issues on this site. And we can't blame him for his ideas on what works and don't work in the medical sense, that is what vets learn in vet school is my guess, just as Drs. are taught in medical school to find the proof...so if it don't show up in blood work, or on x-ray, or whatever, well...geez, there's nothing wrong!! Or "we don't know what's wrong, so go home!!"

If you ever do get the answer or cure to what is wrong with your horse, I so hope you post it here, or email me personally... Even if it's 10 years from now. I had the most beautiful gelding who suffered the same way, and his life ended at such a young age....such a shame.

You take care,

and DrO....keep an open mind!!

(Sorry about my little venting, but....geez almighty already...still no answers?!)
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 58
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 10, 2006 - 5:13 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Also-I was not suggesting the long toe was a way to diagnose lameness-but -compared to the right side there is an obvious difference-and-if you could watch him walk you could see that he does try to keep the weight off of it. If he were traveling correctly his feet would be much more correct. I realize that all feet grow different-that the front and back arent exact replicas of each other--------there is just a big enough difference to assume that he is not using this foot as much as the others because it is not wore as much. Dont you think a good farrier can look at a horses foot and know how he is traveling without having to watch him? The whole reason I joined this sight was for advice-------- not to be critiqued for my thoughts outside of veterinary medicine!!!!
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 59
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 10, 2006 - 5:38 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hay Angie-I am not giving up on him ever-I am done spending money for awhile-as I am broke-but I wont quit. Give me your Email-mine is susie2659@yahoo.com
Tonight when I was working on him I felt him way up on the inside of his left hind leg-now I dont know which nerves are there but the best I can assume from my vet books are the common peroneal and the tibial. Anyway-what a reaction I got-his bicep muscle and his fascia latae muscles just cramped up and he held up his hind leg-and turned to look at me as if saying -that really hurts-quit. I find something different everyday. His left hind hoof is wore more on the outside than the inside. I dont know-as i said- thats why I joined this site. I will keep plugging along and thanx to all of those care
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Angel Roberts
Member
Username: Angelvet

Post Number: 12
Registered: 5-2005
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 10, 2006 - 8:08 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I had to jump in here with the vet bashing and suggestions that vets are solely motivated by the dollars to be made. We all have cases that come along unlike anything we have ever seen in our professional careers. When it comes to multi-system,multi symptom ongoing problems in a 1000 pound animal that can't tell how this started or where it hurts now, all any professional can do is start with the few basic tests we have available and work on from there. If that doesn't work, we refer to the specialists and go from there,or wonder if we missed something in the first battery of tests , so repeat to hopefully pin the problem down. For most cases, we get some ideas or answers to go on. Unfortunately, there are also those cases where the answers do not come. They are heartbreaking and frustrating for both owners and vets,believe me! I can't think of anything I hate more than pulling out all the stops like you have and still not having some solid piece of information to point to and say "Eureka,that's it".Ironically, if any of the tests run had come up with a definitive diagnosis, the money spent would likely never have been an issue! The complaints about cost only seem to come after consenting to the costs of running the tests and not finding the answers you and the vets are both hoping for. Remember, tests are just that, tests, and sometimes the only information of value you get knowing what is not involved rather than specifically what something is.
Secondly, the criticism that Dr O, or vets in general will not endorse using unproven by science products or services out of fear of losing out on selling our services and products is ridiculous. For myself and most vets that I know, we will not endorse a client spending their money on something we have not personally experienced as being beneficial or have seen unbiased, solid research backing it as being useful or at the very least not harmful to their animals. I tell my clients that ask my opinion what my experiences or knowledge are of any alternative therapies they are interested in. If they still wish to try, I will find out what I can for them and pass that info on,as long as the therapy or treatment can cause no harm. If I have concerns as to a product or treatments safety, I tell my clients my concerns as well. I feel that is part of my obligation to my clients. Whether or not they choose to take my advice, I at least have honestly addressed their question and given them the most factual answer I can based on my training and professional experience. That is why I assume they asked me in the first place. Sometimes I have been proven wrong, and the experience is added to my knowledge base so I can better address the question for the next person. Oftentimes, whether or not it worked is unclear, but at least the horse hasn't been harmed. The saddest cases are those where the questions weren't asked, or truthful answers aren't given and the horse is the one who suffers. The safest thing is to always ask your vet about possible therapies, and even if he does not endorse them, he or she can at least warn you of any potential hazards outside of a lighter pocketbook.
Off the soapbox now.Hope you find some answers for your horse..
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 60
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 10, 2006 - 8:28 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Angel-I did not join this site to bash the vet--------I joined for hope and maybe some answers. $8500 spent on a vet is an issue -regardless of an answer to the problems or not. I think a lot of people on this site get bashed by the vet for not knowing the answers-that is why we are on here. Anyone on this site who has an opinion of their own-or an ALTERNATIVE therapy-is critiqued. Dro makes fun of the bioscan
This is from the book Clinical Equine Anatomy and Common Disorders of the Horse Volume 1
One of the oldest forms of physical therapy involved the light or radiant energy of the sun. The term LASER is simply an acronym for Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation. Photobioactivation of the tissues being administered by lasers is well documented. Several researchers have recently discovered that the beneficial effects upon the tissues are not due to the unique qualities of laser irradiation, but due to the unique wavelenghts and energy levels inherent to photo irradiation or low level light therapy-that is what the biofind is-which DRO bashed. As I said-I have all due respect for the vets and what we expect from them-but I didnt join this site to be bashed for my own personnel thoughts. I have tried over and over with the vets but no one can find an answer-it doesnt hurt to try different things-my own vet here told me to go ahead and use it-what have we got to lose at this point-it cant hurt but it may help. I will continue to find answers on here and talk to all who have horse advice to kindly offer me! Thanx -Susan
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Ann
Member
Username: Lilly

Post Number: 84
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 10, 2006 - 10:49 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Susan,
I think you need to look back at this thread one more time - from the very beginning to the end. I don't see Dr.O bashing you but I see you bashing him plenty. Do you realized that he replied to your posts 30 times! So you disagree on alternative treatments, why are you getting so hostile? I found his advice to you to be professional with a compassionate edge. You should be thanking him for devoting so much time trying to find a solution to your problem.
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Angie
Member
Username: Ajudson1

Post Number: 322
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 - 8:10 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Angel,

I hope you weren't thinking I was vet bashing or saying they (or Drs) are motivated just by dollars. It's hard to get across what one means by posting sometimes...words change from brain to fingers, tee hee!!! I was trying to point out that any dr is doing what he is taught to do, just as any "speciailist" is taught to do what she/he does. A dentist looks for answers in the mouth, a chiropractor believes the spine affects everything about ones body, etc. Is any one answer wrong or right? No, it's usually a variety of things that all add up to the problem the patient is experiencing. One area compensates for another area that was having trouble. That works in the body that way to keep the body functioning as a whole. Soon you have a mulitude of problems going on...and finding out what is wrong is harder now.

As for the dollars part...when everyone does the same test over and over, and you pay for it...I do find that ridiculous. If the test was o.k. the first 6 times, why does everyone feel then need to redo it?

My experiences are more with my drs. than vets true....but I find that both get their feathers ruffled if you suggest something other than what they think...a different diagnosis, or different treatment.

I think it's great you posted and pointed out your frustration on cases that don't get resolved. Your post is well written from a vets point of view. There are obviously differences in vets as people and my experiences haven't been positive. I am sure as a vet, you do hear about a zillion things that are the "latest, greatest" cure, and you do know they are just a waste of money and/or dangerous to boot. But I will always say to all vets and Drs...keep an open mind. Just because it's not "scientifically proven" YET, doesn't mean it doesn't work. Or that is doesn't have some value.

I think that is what Susan is most frustrated about perhaps? She is grasping straws at this point, and is willing to try anything, and unless it's outright dangerous I think she needs to hear something like "try it, it won't hurt, it might help although it hasn't been proven"...
and a simple "good luck, let us know what happens".

Too bad we all can't be in another's shoes for a day or two....everyone is "right" where they are coming from, it's just hard to appreciate the differences sometimes.
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 61
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 - 9:19 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Ann-
I am sorry you see me as bashing Dro------ but in all honesty I dont think I have. It seems to me he has said quite a few things to me that were insulting-and not just my post-lots of others also. I paid to join this site---- I thought that is why I paid- to get advice. I am glad he responds but I feel that he closed mind to what other people think-it seems like it is his way or the highway. I have an open mind. The vets have done plenty of things to my horse that I didnt want them to do because I didnt think it was necessary-but they are the professionals-not me. I know this horse-I have had him 6 years and I think my input could be listened to by vets.And I am frustrated ------- and when I am told my thoughts about a long toe and using the Bioscan is hucksterism-was I supposed to say Thank-You for that comment. I apologize if anyone things I have said things out of line because that is not my intent-I am just trying to fix my horse. Thanx to all!
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Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose

Post Number: 1050
Registered: 1-2000
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 - 11:03 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Susan, you mentioned in one of your recent posts about the reaction you got from your horse's inside left hind. Was this on the inside of the stifle area? Nerves would be sensitive in that area if there was some kind of stifle problem, or even hip problem I would think.

I think a most good farriers can tell basically about the movement of a horse from foot wear patterns, but seeing the horse in movement tell a lot more.

I can totally understand your frustration. Difficult to diagnose cases happen in both people and horses. Sometimes the diagnosis is something simple, when everyone is looking for something more serious. I hope this turns out to be the case with your horse. At this point, I would be inclined to start from scratch with the most simple possibility, and then work my way up, without doing all the expensive tests over again as I don't see that the answers would be much different, unless the tests were done a long time ago and something has changed. I'm no vet, but just think that's the course I would take out of frustration. Good luck.
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 62
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 - 11:44 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

sara-It was on the LH inside-but higher up than if you just went inside from the stifle. I had one vet take a pic and tell me his right hock and stifle needed to be blistered-I changed vets. The next vet in Edmond Oklahoma took X-rays of hocks and stifles and said there were no problems there. But " just because" they injected both hocks and stifles" and it didnt make a difference one way or the other. Maybe someone needs to concentrate on the left side as much as they did the right side. Thanx for input- please keep in touch
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Shirley A. Johnson
Member
Username: Shirl

Post Number: 298
Registered: 2-2002
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 - 11:49 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Susan,
I've been following this post, and posted once. I honestly don't know how you are handling the frustration, unknowns, to say nothing of the expense. There is nothing worse than not knowing!
The entire thing is just unbelievable. Just want you to know I understand your frustrations, and sending good thoughts and prayers your way.
Shirl
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 63
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 - 12:11 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Shirl-
Thanx so much----it helps to have encouraging words sent our way. I will do my best to find the problem of Whizzy and keep everyone informed.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 14494
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 - 7:40 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Susan, I am familiar with the research into electromagnetism and photons in biological systems and whether you realize it or not the Bioscan is without scientific merit as a diagnositic tool. If you want to believe the reason medical science does not embrace this technology is because they are looking for a few more dollars in their pocket, that is your opinion. I look at modern medical science and see the thousands of health benefits that 100 years ago would have been considered true miracles. And you are right this particular piece of technology was being sold 100 years ago along with dozens of other pieces of nonsense.

If you choose to use it and it makes you feel you are doing good, I have not asked you to stop, but it is my role here to provide the best advice I know how and that includes correcting what I consider erroneous statements.

My last statemen was an attempt to direct you in the right direction of finding which leg is lame. If you will quote the insulting statement I made above I would be glad to apologise for it however I cannot find it. Here is the exact quote of my whole post in which you say I insulted you:
Hello Susan,
The fact that he grows a long hoof is, like the Biofind, not a good way to localize lameness. Instead I would follow my suggestions in the article Equine Diseases » Lameness » Localizing Lameness in the Horse. I do find the Biofind a product that is based upon unproven technologies that strike me as the worse kind of hucksterism: it looks very professional.

DrO
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 14495
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 - 8:02 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Angie, what is an open mind? Is it the person who looks at all sides of an issue as fairly as they know how and comes to conclusions based on that examination? Or does it take someone who believes anything stated by anybody?
DrO
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Lee
Member
Username: Paul303

Post Number: 561
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 - 3:55 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I must say, that if equine vets just wanted to make money, they would have gone to med school. It would have been easier to get accepted, and a much easier course of study - one species as opposed to....how many? And how about those working environments? Nice clean, bright, sanitary offices or hospitals...temperature controled, nurses and professional aids to cater to every need - as opposed to inadequate lighting, less than adequate help, physically dangerous situations ( potentially career ending ), unsterile barns to do procedures in, and, more often than not, freezing cold water to scrub up in. In an emergency, the patients of medical doctors can go to the hospital emergency room. The lucky equine vet gets to leave a warm bed, drive out alone in the wee hours, stay up half the night, go home, eat breakfast, shower, and do regular appointments the next day.

And remember when they tack $125.00 farm call on a $250.00 bill, they could have been small animal vets treating 5 patients in their office for an average of $125.00 EACH in the 40 minutes it took them to drive to your farm...without having to spend money on gas.

I once knew a dental hygienist who followed her dream and went to vet school. Although she got a job right away, the salary didn't come close to covering her rent, and her $70,000.00 college loan. She was forced to return to hygiene which provided good pay, health coverage, sick pay, paid vacation and a retirement plan. It also provided weekends off - which allowed her to take a part time vet position.

Large animal vets....in it for the money? Doubtful. Not compared to the ease of a small animal practice - or a medical doctor. They sacrifice much, to work with these large animals that they must truly love - each horse capable of harboring a career ending explosion. So why do they do it? I don't know....but thank God they do.
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LL
Member
Username: Frances

Post Number: 206
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 - 7:42 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I must say my jaw dropped to read your Jan. 10th am post, Susan. I can see no way in which DrO came even remotely close to insulting you. In your Jan 11th am post you write, ".. when I am told my thoughts on long toes and biofind is hucksterism ...": did you perhaps think that DrO meant YOUR THOUGHTS were hucksterism?? (Not that thoughts can be "hucksterism", but I can see no other explanation for your extreme reaction).

I understand that you've reached a point of huge frustration in your horse's case, but I do find it immensely unfair of you to attack DrO, who gives so much to HA members for very little reward.
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Angie
Member
Username: Ajudson1

Post Number: 324
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 - 8:28 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

DrO,

I would say an open mind is your first statement posted above. And the key part..."as they know how"..based on their knowledge, past experiences, view of what's right in their mind. Nothing wrong with that. And for the record, I personally don't find you insulting, just straight forward. You have difficult job trying to offer advice based on what people can tell you in a written description.

And I apologize if you felt I was suggesting you (or all vets) are "closed minded", or "dollar greedy"....I was trying to talk in general based on some negative experiences I have had to share in Susan's frustration. Perhaps better if I had wrote directly to her, so I will bow out now.
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Holly Wood
Member
Username: Hwood

Post Number: 926
Registered: 3-2001
Posted on Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 - 10:06 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks for your clear post, Lee. You have certainly reminded me of all the reasons I need to be thankful to the Large Animal Vets who have served me over the years. I haven't been pleased with all the diagnoses, nor have they all had a great "bedside manner," but they have come at all hours . . . and sometimes in the coldest conditions, and my "barns" were sometimes nothing more than run-in sheds. More often than not, the times I needed vets were the "off-hour" times for most folks, and I have often felt guilty calling and asking them to come at night,knowing they have all ready put in a longer day than many of us.

susan, I have also been following your posts and feeling the desperation, frustraion and hopefulness . . . the ups and downs, as you explore every avenue to help your lovely horse (is that his picture on your profile?). You have to follow your heart and be true to yourself . . . otherwise you will always wonder if you did all you were able to do to help this animal whose welfare you take very seriously. Good for you . . . I hope you will find the answers that will help him, give you relief and educate us to the cause and cure for his problem.
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Sue G
Member
Username: Warwick

Post Number: 252
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 - 12:02 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thank you for such an excellent and eloquent post, Lee.
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 64
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 - 12:43 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dro-
Thank you for responding-I took insult in your statement of my horses toe being long not a good way to diagnose lameness-I was just thinking that the left toe was long because he was using that side less-thinking that maybe the lameness originally started in LF and showed up in the RH because of compensation. Oklahoma State University said the problem was in the RH but didnt know what the problem was. Actually I took him to OSU because of a statement you made to me-that I better get him to a good teaching hospital before he cant get up-which is exactly what I did. I took your comment as though my thoughts were stupid. Lee-I agree with you about the vets working condition-not exactly the most pleasant at times-and as far as the money goes---my own personal vet here told me I make more than her-she works for another vet--I am a union equipment operator-and I am in it for the money!! We all cant agree on everything-I am just trying to find an answer and I dont feel as though I attacked anyone-I am on here for help and to learn. And I will continue-those who want to support me in my search here-I appreciate it more than you will know. I dont understand how the bioscan works-or that it actually will do anything. I have tried everything the vets have suggested-when I left both major hospitals they told me they didnt know what else to do and wished me luck. That doesnt leave with too many alternatives-and until I can scrounge up some more money to continue searching I figured I might as well use what I have. It wont hurt him-my vet told me it was alright to use. So thank you to all and I will continue to write. Angie- you may email me at my own mail if you want. Oh and yes that is Whizzy in my profile
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Shelley
Member
Username: Sswiley

Post Number: 121
Registered: 1-2005
Posted on Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 - 1:24 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Susan, I was wondering if you ever checked your horse for EPSM? This is just the kind of story I went through with my gelding for 4 + years. An elusive hindend lamness that was more prominent on one side. I did not spend as much as you did in diagnoses. We did however go to the big university and ended up with a diagnoses of a front leg lamness!! It seems places like this have their checklist of pertinent information, and any information that does not have a place on that checklist does not get considered into the diagnoses. That is why I only went there once and managed to figure it out myself. Sometimes these elusive problems have quite a history and it is too much information for most people to process when they are looking at several different cases for other people. They also tend to have their "favorite" diagnoses.
I am also not a huge fan of Homeopathy. I had a pony with chronic colic for 6+ years. Did every test imaginable . . . several times. We finally lost her after I tried Homeopathy in conjunction with the normal meds I gave her. Not a good experience.
Bottom line, you may have to figure this out yourself. Try the muscle biopsey at rural heritage, Dr. Beth Valentine is very supportive. She is very responsive with emails. Go ahead and give her your story and see what she thinks.
Good Luck
Shelley
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Lee
Member
Username: Paul303

Post Number: 563
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 - 2:38 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

The beauty, quality, and talent of your boy is very evident from your picture. Your frustration is also very understandable. As was mentioned somewhere above, this is a far more frequent scenario than any of us are comfortable with - vets included.

In reviewing this thread, I wonder if the sheath swelling could have been edema from a soft tissue injury along the spine, or deep in the hip area. The manipulation of the edematous tissue during sheath cleaning in conjunction with any anti-inflammatories ( I forgot if they were used),
could have helped to relieve the swelling and aided in the healing of whatever tissue was involved. The area of injury could subsequently have experienced re-injury, periodically - as those of us with bad backs are well aware. When injured, your horse will move in a defensive posture, which does not aid the repair of the original injury site.

You end up with a weak spot that fails when exposed to sustained stress. This could have been a "stress" that has never bothered him before.
You mentioned the sheath business coming and going a few times, before you used the word "crippled" . This came up within, what?, 3 months?, of transporting him to NJ and back home again. During those three months, besides being consistently "off", he was subject to more trailering for some rather extensive diagnostic procedures ( very necessary for the "rule out" phase ). He's been lame ever since with continued treatment - some good, some bad, some injurious. NO really good or consistent response.

I'd give him some time to get over all his treatments and procedures, even drop the vitamins if he has a good quality feed...as long as he exhibits continuing good health otherwise, and no worsening of symptoms.

Then, records in hand, if you're up for it, I'd try to get another opinion from a fresh outlook.
Although I'd be against another long trailer ride, if he's in NJ, Mid-Atlantic Equine Medical, in Ringoes, NJ has a great reputation in lameness and has solved two awful problems for me, personally.
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Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66

Post Number: 1036
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 - 3:16 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Susan,

I too understand your frustration. I've recently went through a two year on /off / on lameness. I went researched a ton, came here with questions of "can I try this? will it hurt him?" a LOT. In the end, it seemed that balanced feet and time were all he needed.

Many people here, Lee, Ann, Debbie, Lynn, Sara, Holly, Shirley and so many others were so supportive. No, I still do not know for certain what was wrong with him, but I do know he has been sound since what...July I think...

I also took your posts as derogatory toward Dr. O.

Dr. O is an absolute godsend, straightforward and to the point...and great therapy too ... as you shall soon see :-)

Keep posting, this site kept me going and partly sane :-)
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 65
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 - 6:07 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi everyone -and thanx-and as I said before-if what I said was taken the wrong way-I apologize-I guess I took what Dro said the wrong way.
Anyway-all that behind us--------this spring I may take Whizzy to Ringoes. I will let him just continue to rest in pasture and see what happens. I have gotten on him a couple of times in the past week -bareback of course-and just walked him around the pasture. He seems to enjoy it-he is not sound but this doesnt seem to cause him any problems. I think he enjoys the attention as he is in pasture alone-has company in a pasture across the way-but no one to touch. I was thinking of getting him a mini for company of his own kind.I had suggested EPSM to my vets but they all think I will be wasting my money. He eats triple crown complete feed which is a low carb feed----but nothing has changed since I changed his diet to make it low carb. Whizzy has been lame since Oct of 2004-thats when I really stopped riding. He had intermittent lameness from June-Oct. The sheath went thru a spell where it got better but has been swollen since 04 also-sometimes not to bad-at one point- the size of a football. His feet are not balanced now but I did want to see where he was carrying his weight -but up until this he always had his feet done regular-and me not being a farrier-I just assumed he was OK. I have made my farriers mad before because I wanted something done different-like my Oklahoma farrier didnt know a thing about shoeing reining horses and when I said the plates had to have the nails filed he got mad. I wish it were just a balanced foot-but so many problems-I dont know. I will keep trying. I used a vet from New Bolten that is now in Ringoes and she was excellant-she saved my mares life. I will keep plugging along and see what happens and I will keep everybody informed. I found his nuclear imaging file tonight-I am getting all paperwork together so come spring-if he isnt right yet-I will have some $ and can try a little more. I am going to have more in him than I paid for him-but to replace him I would need more than that-I couldnt even put a price tag on him-he has a home for life-lame-crippled-whatever. Thanx all- Angie-mail me
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Lee
Member
Username: Paul303

Post Number: 564
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Friday, Jan 13, 2006 - 1:06 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Susan, When you are ready to jump back in, any follow up would be greatly appreciated. So much knowledge is gained through the experiences of the members of HA. Give Whizzy a kiss from me....
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 66
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Friday, Jan 13, 2006 - 8:33 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanx-I will keep you all posted. And if anyone reads anything-hears anything please dont hesitate to share. I spend hours on here reading- trying to find something that may have been missed.
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 67
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 25, 2006 - 7:43 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Ok everyone---------I know most will think I am nuts but here goes. I talked to a horse psychic today-Yeah -I know Dro- but I am grabbing straws here. But listen- really--------She said my horse got bit by a tick that is from out of the country and he has sporochites-not sure how to spell that- in the mylon sheath of spine. OK-well-New Bolten treated him for sporrochirisis-spelling again not sure. But they said the colors were different-like they had never seen-psychic told me the colors were what she doesnt usually see. They were green-yellow with apurple tint-which is what new bolten saw but in a different area. She also said that Whizzys ligament was torn near sciatic nerve which caused him great pain. The initial vet I went to - that wanted to bliste Whiz-said he had something wrong with sciatic nerve. As far as the tick goes that is not in the united states-everytime I came back to NJ for a visit I boarded Whiz at an import -export equine place-strange. But anyway----I am trying to find a tick that is a gray-microscopic tick from South America or Australia. Also Dro---if the ligament near sciatic nerve is damaged-torn- whatever-is there a way to repair this. I know you think I am nuts-but in one way or another the vets were going in these directions- but didnt know where else to search. She also told me that Whizzy said I liked blue and green- I told her they werent my favorite colors- but- all his blankets are blue /green. She said he also told her he fell-remember I mentioned this. But -I would like some tick info and some ligament sciatic nerve info. Thanx somuch .
Susan
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 68
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 25, 2006 - 7:48 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Ok everyone---------I know most will think I am nuts but here goes. I talked to a horse psychic today-Yeah -I know Dro- but I am grabbing straws here. But listen- really--------She said my horse got bit by a tick that is from out of the country and he has sporochites-not sure how to spell that- in the mylon sheath of spine. OK-well-New Bolten treated him for sporrochirisis-spelling again not sure. But they said the colors were different-like they had never seen-psychic told me the colors were what she doesnt usually see. They were green-yellow with a purple tint-which is what new bolten saw but in a different area. She also said that Whizzys ligament was torn near sciatic nerve which caused him great pain. The initial vet I went to - that wanted to blister Whiz-said he had something wrong with sciatic nerve. As far as the tick goes that is not in the united states-everytime I came back to NJ for a visit I boarded Whiz at an import -export equine place-strange. But anyway----I am trying to find a tick that is a gray-microscopic tick from South America or Australia. Also Dro---if the ligament near sciatic nerve is damaged-torn- whatever-is there a way to repair this. I know you think I am nuts-but in one way or another the vets were going in these directions- but didnt know where else to search. She also told me that Whizzy said I liked blue and green- I told her they werent my favorite colors- but- all his blankets are blue /green. She said he also told her he fell-remember I mentioned this. But -I would like some tick info and some ligament sciatic nerve info. Thanx so much .
Susan
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Christella
Member
Username: Christel

Post Number: 33
Registered: 8-2005
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 25, 2006 - 9:22 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Wow Susan, I have been following this post and think I am as frustrated as you, my you have been thru the ringer with Whizzy!! I wanted to suggest the psyhic a few weeks ago, I know it was from pure frustration and you 'not' getting any closer to a diagnosis.
That is so- out there- but I hope it gets to bottom of this, for you and Whizzy- btw he is gorgeous- I am partial to reiners especially the Topsail Whiz bloodlines.
Keeping fingers crossed.

Chris

Just a suggestion, but could you make a part II, so it doesn't take half a day to get to bottom of posts-lol, this has gotten kinda long but very interesting.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 14616
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Thursday, Jan 26, 2006 - 8:12 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Guys, I really don't have a comment here, it speaks for itself. We had a very nice Member who was also a horse psychic and we ran some experiments that you might find interesting at, Member's Services members_only » The Lounge: Kick back and relax. » Telepathy and Animal Communication » DrO and the Animal Communicator.
DrO
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 69
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Thursday, Feb 2, 2006 - 10:37 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi guys-----I have been trying to get back into this for days but my PC wouldnt let me get to my post for some reason. Whizzy is still on doxy-he has actually been loping-all the way across his pasture- the last few days. BUT---I also put him on bute for a few days because it was really cold here and he seemed so stiff one morning. Bute hasnt helped him at any other time during all of this but I think it helped him this time to some degree. He is still OFF-but loping and moving a lot more. Trotting was the hardest thing for him to do and he can trot now-time will tell. I am going to go into the lounge and read Dro suggestion-----------thanx all and I will still keep trying and posting-as long as PC works. First horse breaks- truck is going- PC is going and I am getting old. How do I start a part 2-----I get tired myself of this long ordeal-thanx all!!!!!!!
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 70
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Friday, Mar 17, 2006 - 9:21 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Well ---- Whiz iz now on a new health program. Maybe this will help. He is on a variety of supplements. Charcoal,probiotics,flax oil, glucosamine,chrondroton,msm,lysine powder,glycine powder and I am ordering him this clay that will help draw impurities from his body----it works as a supplement top dressed on feed and as a poultice. I refuse to put any more meds in his body. I guess we have nothing but time at this point. I got the truck fixed and PC is working so if only I can get Whizzy fixed life is good.
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Holly Wood
Member
Username: Hwood

Post Number: 1018
Registered: 3-2001
Posted on Friday, Mar 17, 2006 - 9:44 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

What a hard year it has been for you and Whizzy, susan. Have you seen any changes in his symptoms? I hope that this year will be be easier for both of you.
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 71
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 29, 2006 - 11:04 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Whizzys sheath has been swelled pretty bad-both sides now--for the past week. It finally started to subside a bit yesterday. Right now he is on Glycine-lysine, flax oil, glucosamine,msm and chrondroitan. He has been on these for about a week now. Next week I am starting him on an additional program. I found an article a vet from NC wrote about equine fibromyalagia. We talked and she talked to my vet here. She thinks that Whizzy has a chronic low grade systemic fungal infection-which was probably caused from his cryptorchid surgery years ago. She said this takes years to develop. It makes sense because as I was going thru all of Whizzys records-prior to my purchase-he had the same kind of lameness and they could never find the problem. When I tried to find out information about his surgery everyone-including the vet clinic-didnt know a thing about when it was even done.I think someone is trying to hide something but at this point it doesnt matter. Whizzy was sold as a weanling for $35,000 but being a cryptorchid kind of ruined that deal. Anyway-- ----we are going to treat him for this. She said she cannot guarantee that he will be 100%-but she said I am going to see a major difference in him. I have a good feeling about this . I also talked to a Dr in Oklahoma and he seems to think this all makes sense and is worth a try. Whizzy is going to be treated with a 5 day double dose of Panacur-then the 6th day he gets IV arsenic- this is supposed to be an antifungal-antoprotozoal combination.Then he gets- a 15 day supply of-not sure how to spell this------kenacatazole. This-as I understand -will clear the fungal infection which will relieve the rest of the sore wore out body. One of these days Whizzy will be better.
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 72
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Thursday, Apr 13, 2006 - 3:31 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Whizzy is in heaven waiting for me. Thanx to all who listened -gave advice and cared.
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KATHLEEN WHEAT
Member
Username: Kathleen

Post Number: 164
Registered: 5-2004
Posted on Thursday, Apr 13, 2006 - 4:28 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Susan,
I'm so sorry for you, I'm sure Whizzy is happy and healthy now and waiting for you.
Kathleen
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Vicki Zaneis
Member
Username: Vickiann

Post Number: 205
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Thursday, Apr 13, 2006 - 4:48 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

You tried so hard for a different outcome and should take comfort that you did all you could. I am very sorry to hear this sad news. With deepest sympathy, Vicki Z.
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Angie
Member
Username: Ajudson1

Post Number: 417
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Thursday, Apr 13, 2006 - 6:21 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Susan,

My deepest sympathy to you. (((hugs)))

Angie
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Chris Doyle
Member
Username: Christel

Post Number: 76
Registered: 8-2005
Posted on Thursday, Apr 13, 2006 - 8:10 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

OH MY, Susan, I have kept up with this post for a long time and was hoping for good news, am so sorry.
Please know you did all you could do, Whizzy was very lucky to have such a caring owner through all this.
Many hugs to you,
Chris
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joj
Member
Username: Jojo15

Post Number: 670
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Friday, Apr 14, 2006 - 12:06 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

wow.. such an ordeal. what a poor outcome. i feel so bad reading your frustrations and searches and no definitive answers... and i feel i have to ask but after all the time and money you spent wonder if you chose not to .... did you order a necropsy? how did he finally die? poor horse....
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Holly Wood
Member
Username: Hwood

Post Number: 1098
Registered: 3-2001
Posted on Friday, Apr 14, 2006 - 1:26 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

susan . . . When?? Was it the equine fibromyalgia?
so sorry . . . so very sorry. I know he was so very special to you . . . and always will be . . .
tears may endure for a night . . . but joy comes in the morning . . . I hope your morning is not far off.
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LL
Member
Username: Frances

Post Number: 235
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Friday, Apr 14, 2006 - 9:49 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Susan

I'm so very sorry to hear this. You did everything possible for Whizzy.

Thinking of you,

Lynn
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Fran C
Member
Username: Canter

Post Number: 459
Registered: 1-2000
Posted on Friday, Apr 14, 2006 - 7:34 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

So very sorry to hear of your loss, Susan. You did everything you could. May you find peace knowing that.

Fran
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Lee
Member
Username: Paul303

Post Number: 611
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Sunday, Apr 16, 2006 - 2:58 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

How heartbreaking, Susan. You pulled out all the stops....and you're now emotionally and physically exhausted. Now is the time to give yourself permission to put this all away for awhile and rest your mind. Don't risk associating your horse with this anguish that so overshadows everything right now. Lock this all away until the time when thoughts of Whiz bring only warmth and delight to your soul and lift your face in a smile. You owe it to yourself to remember Whiz by the way he represented the joy and passion that horses bring to our lives.....and not by the pain of their passing. Now go pamper yourself
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Lilo
Member
Username: Lilo

Post Number: 248
Registered: 4-2000
Posted on Monday, Apr 17, 2006 - 2:29 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dear Susan,

Thinking of you with deepest sympathy.
So sorry about this outcome.

Lilo
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Liliana Velasco Ariza
Member
Username: Liliana5

Post Number: 88
Registered: 5-2005
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 18, 2006 - 6:36 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

My heart goes out to you Susan; there are no words to fill the gap that such a loss leaves in your heart. That poor horse! He had to endure so much suffering and for nothing it seems. I was hoping that being cryptorchid , it would have been resolved by surgery removing the offending possibly infected testicle! Alas he is finally at rest running free in heaven, no more pain for him.

Did they do a necropsy? At least something could be learned form this.

Dr. O I may be wrong but to me it seems that this horse was bombarded with more medication that he could handle. Please I do not mean to offend anybody, you see this time I only read Susan’s posts and yours. it is just an observation .
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Corinne Meadows
Member
Username: Corinne

Post Number: 287
Registered: 9-2005
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 18, 2006 - 8:15 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Susan,

We are here for you! So Sorry to hear about Whizzy but your journey has not ended for there will be many more rides when you meet him again!

My thoughts and prayers are with you.

God Bless,
Corinne
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Debra Dove
Member
Username: 9193

Post Number: 165
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 19, 2006 - 12:21 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dear Susan,

Your devotion and heartfelt love for Whizzy was so evident in your posts. I am so very sorry to learn that your beloved Whizzy now lives in your heart instead of his stall.

Please take care of yourself at this difficult time..

Peace,
Debra
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Peggy Riley
Member
Username: Peggyr

Post Number: 15
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 19, 2006 - 9:09 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Susan,I am so very sorry to see this. Whizzy will be waiting for you at the bridge.

Peggy
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susan
Member
Username: Sdoubleu

Post Number: 73
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Sunday, Jun 25, 2006 - 3:03 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I just wanted to thank everyone for the kind thoughts.Whizzy had to be destroyed because of colic. I miss Whizzy terribly and I am still an emotional wreck. I know he is in a better place-without pain-running and playing---- but I cant help but think that I may have been able to do more for him- or maybe less. He was not happy just being a pasture ornament-I do know that-but it still hurts not having him. I know we will be together again someday.
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Holly Wood
Member
Username: Hwood

Post Number: 1252
Registered: 3-2001
Posted on Sunday, Jun 25, 2006 - 3:31 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

susan,
How could you ever think that you didn't do enough for Whizzy? The chronicles above show more concern, searching, innovation, effort, and expense than most of us can imagine.
Guilt is good for warning us when we have done something wrong, but there is definitely NO place for guilt when you have done all you know to do . . . and MORE.

All of your experiences with owning Whizzy have combined to teach you and teach all of us . . . Colic happens across the board, susan, and for all different reasons. Was there ever any solid evidence of the causes of Whizzy's health problems?

Glad you are back with us. I hope you will find another horse or horses whom you can love and with whom you can continue to develop the knowledge and skills that all of us HA members can see you employed out of love for Whizzy.
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Erika L
Member
Username: Erika

Post Number: 247
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Sunday, Jun 25, 2006 - 5:25 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Wow, no guilt necessary, Susan. I second Holly's comments--you certainly did everything humanly possible.

I'm sure I am butchering this, but a doctor once told me that 80% of patients will get better with treatment, 10% will get better without any treatment, and 10% will not get better no matter what you do. Basically saying there are cases that are incurable with what we currently know. Unfortunately it sounds like Whizzy's illness was in this last 10%.

So sorry for your loss, but I hope you take comfort in knowing that you tried everything.
If you ever find out more, I'm sure we would all like to hear it.
Erika
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Katrina
Member
Username: Kthorse

Post Number: 460
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Sunday, Jun 25, 2006 - 6:48 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Susan, Oh my words can not say enough. Its the first time I read this thread. Dont know why I never saw it before. I have tears in my eyes. what a wonderful loving caring horse owner you are. God bless you and whizzy was one lucky horse to have you.
Katrina
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 15966
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 7:40 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

My condolences Susan, everyone is right you did everything you thought you could for this horse.

Erika it goes, 80% will get better no matter what you do, 10% will not get better no matter what you do, and 10% you can make a real difference with proper treatment. Some argue whether it is 70 or 80 per cent but I have long felt the key to very good medical care is to early on having the ability to recognize which group you are dealing with but it is a fact that often you don't have enough information to know when you start treatment.
DrO
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Erika L
Member
Username: Erika

Post Number: 249
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 11:38 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks for setting me straight Dr. O, I knew I butchered it...but I did try to get the gist of it.
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susan
Member
Username: sdoubleu

Post Number: 74
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Monday, Feb 12, 2007 - 9:39 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi all.
I didnt get another horse but I got the closet thing to a horse. I bought myself an English mastiff puppy.
I still cry over Whizzy almost everyday. He lives in my heart.
I just felt it was time to love an animal again.
He will never take Whizzys place but he is sure an awesome devoted little guy. He is just a pup but growing daily. His daddy is 265 pounds and his mom is 200-so he will be pretty big-flew him in from Alaska.
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cindy O'DELL
Member
Username: zarr

Post Number: 299
Registered: 6-2000
Posted on Monday, Feb 12, 2007 - 11:49 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

WoW Susan you didn't get a puppy you got a whole litter rolled into one CONGRADULATIONS ! Cindy
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Holly Wood
Member
Username: hwood

Post Number: 1798
Registered: 3-2001
Posted on Monday, Feb 12, 2007 - 10:01 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Congrats, susan. Do you have a stall for him?? Don't tell me he sleeps on your bed!!! Hope you have a KING-sized mattress.
Are English Mastiffs like the dog on TURNER AND HOOCH? If so, hope you have lots of rags and some cleaning solution . . . and lots of time on your hands.
My husband raised Black and Tan Coonhounds, and he has one lone Coonhound left . . . and I've never known a messier dog. I know why hounds are always shown laying out on the back porch or in the dirt underneath the back steps. Mark has some great stories about dog slime.
It is clear that Whizzy was a one-of-a-kind horse . . . but I am confident that another special horse will come along and steal your heart when the time is right.
Will you post some pics of the little pup? What did you name him? I think you can train him to pull a cart, at least I think I've seen pictures of that before.
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susan
Member
Username: sdoubleu

Post Number: 75
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 13, 2007 - 1:36 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi---
He is going to be a big slobbering fool-and YES-----I know I shouldnt-but he sleeps in my bed-and he snores. I love him. He is pretty smart for a little guy-actually he is not so little. I took him to the vets yesterday- he weighs almost 30 pounds. The vet said he will gain approx a pound a day. He is a big loveable playful boy and I hope he stays that way-I dont want 250 pounds of not nice. I dont know if the dog in Turner and Hooch was an English mastiff or a Bull mastiff.
His name is Boomer-my dad calls him Buster Brown-he is an apricot.
I will try to figure out how to get a pic a smaller size and post one.
Maybe someday another Whizzy will come along.
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susan
Member
Username: sdoubleu

Post Number: 76
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 13, 2007 - 1:46 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


This is Boomer------dont know how to make pic smaller
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Ann
Member
Username: dres

Post Number: 1173
Registered: 10-2000
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 13, 2007 - 4:45 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

THATS A PUPPY???

I love Boomer..

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.
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cindy O'DELL
Member
Username: zarr

Post Number: 302
Registered: 6-2000
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 13, 2007 - 5:19 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Having watched the Westminster dog show last nite every version of the mastiff breed the commentator said how very good with children these dogs are! The one from Turner and Hooch was a Neopolitan(sp) mastiff, I think! Just buy towels in bulk and you'll be fine! He is very handsome for a "little" dude! Cindy
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Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose

Post Number: 2276
Registered: 1-2000
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 13, 2007 - 9:54 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Susan, I've just read your entire thread. I think I read some of it at the beginning then lost track of your ordeal. You had such a difficult time with Wiz...he's in good company now. A lot of us have horses we have lost that are waiting on the "other side."

I LOVE BOOMER!! What a face! You just want to give him a big hug looking at his picture.
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LL
Member
Username: frances

Post Number: 386
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 9:17 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

He really is gorgeous Susan - has he got any brothers or sisters????
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