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gaitedlady
Member
Username: jebe
Post Number: 7
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2008 - 6:38 pm: |   |
Hello,
I will try to make this concise but it is rather lengthy. I bought a 3 1/2 yr old horse back that I sold as a weanling. The people had not taken proper care of her and she was malnourished. I suspected she might have ulcers and the vet said he thought she would be fine with just putting her on alfalfa for a few months. She did get better with this. Then after she stressed after a haul and a trip to ride in the mountains I decided to put her on U-guard since stress seemed to make her go off her feed again. Again, she began doing better. Her disposition changed, she started eating better and stopped burping. She has been doing good for about 6 months even though she does lay down more than most horses. She was on the alfalfa hay until 2 months ago when I ran out of hay I had stored for the winter. I thought after 1 1/2 years on it that she probably didn't need it any more since my vet had said to put her on it for 3 months. I don't know if that is the difference or not, but last month she started not only burping but belching so I put her back on the alfalfa. Then she got so she would belch during a ride and then just want to lay down when we got back from a very calm ride. She is a very picky eater so I tried different feeds to try to get her to eat and to see if it agreed with her. Since she wasn't getting any better I had her scoped today. After not having any water for 10 1/2 hours her stomach was full of water as though she had just drake. They waited another 6 hours and scoped again. Still her stomach had too much water in it to be definitive, but the water had gone down some. Where they could see there were no ulcers. They palpated her for impaction and none. They are running a test for blood in the stool and that will be back tomorrow morning. I brought her home and after 32 hours of no food and 17 hours of no water she doesn't want any food or water and just wants to lay down. My vet said he thought she either had an ulcer where the stomach and intestines comes together or a tumor there. I have never heard of water not passing into the intestines and just staying in the stomach. The other thing I am curious about is how is the food passing from the stomach into the intestines if the water isn't. Please tell me if this rings any bells or whistles or if you know of any other kind of test my vet didn't recommend. He said she might have a mechanical problem called __hypertrophy. I didn't catch the first word. There was foam in her stomach indicating bacteria which is why he is leaning toward an ulcer. She is not a stalled horse. She is on good pasture and orchard/timorthy grass when out in the field and gets her alfalfa when brought in to eat. I give her 2 hours morning and night to eat all she wants of that. I need some help. I will pay for the gastrogard treatment if it will help her, but right now my vet doesn't really know what has made her not well and the water staying in her stomach so long.
Thanks ahead of time for your input. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 20715
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Friday, May 23, 2008 - 12:01 pm: | |
I believe they were speculating pyloric hypertrophy and delayed stomach emptying. Pyloric hypertrophy is a complication of chronic ulceration. I think it may explain some of the symptoms and clinical findings but there is nothing diagnostic for in your post. The diagnosis is made by endoscopy but requires a 2.5 to 3 meter scope especially in large breeds. I am a bit confused about the fluid problem. Fluid is normally present even when fasted and water withheld, but I guess they are saying it is more than they expect? Too much fluid for an exam in not uncommon and standard procedure is to siphon it off. Some scopes can actually provide suction to remove such fluid.
For more on examination procedures in horses with undiagnosed colic see Diseases of Horses » Colic, Diarrhea, GI Tract » Colic in Horses » An Overview of Colic. As long as undiagnosed colic remains on the list: has a peritoneal tap been done? Was the esophagus itself carefully examined for problems as the scope was passed? As long as ulcers are suspected why not begin omeprazole?
DrO |
gaitedlady
Member
Username: jebe
Post Number: 8
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Friday, May 23, 2008 - 1:32 pm: | |
Hi Dr. O,
Thanks for responding. They did the scope twice yesterday and each time said there was too much water to really see much and make a diagnosis. Nothing was ever said about siphoning and it was not done. It makes perfect sense to me hearing you say it. I don't think the esophagus was looked at as I was there for the first scope and when he reached too much water in the stomach he just pulled it out and said he would have to do it again in 6 hours. I think he didn't believe me that I had actually withheld the water from her. Since making the post the test came back that there was blood in her manure. I am going to start the omeprazole but he said the blood didn't mean that she definitely had an ulcer. He said she could possibly have a bleeding tumor and using the omeprazole would be another diagnostic tool. She did not have nor did he recommend the peritoneal tap. I specifically asked if there was anything else we could do to diagnose her and he said the only thing left was exploratory surgery.
I will begin the omeprazole tonight, but I am going out of town for 10 days so I will not be able to send feedback until I return. My barn help has been alerted to watch out for her and give her the gastrogard.
Thanks! |
gaitedlady
Member
Username: jebe
Post Number: 9
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Friday, May 23, 2008 - 3:27 pm: | |
P.S. I just came from picking up the gastrogard and asked my vet why he didn't siphon out the water from her stomach. He said it wasn't possible to do that. Since you are a vet and said it was possible it is rather puzzling to me.
Thanks again! |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 20722
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Saturday, May 24, 2008 - 9:46 pm: | |
Huh? Attempting to siphon off excessive fluid prior to oiling a horse with colic is standard procedure for every horse. It is done to prevent rupture by putting the oil in on a already overly full stomach. I have sometimes removed several gallons of water this way from colicky horses.
DrO |
gaitedlady
Member
Username: jebe
Post Number: 10
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, Jun 1, 2008 - 10:22 pm: | |
Thanks Dr. O. I have been out of town and just returned. I started my horse on the ulcerguard as my vet was out of the gastroguard. He had told me to give her 3/4 of a tube as she weighs about 900 lbs. On the third day she seemed to not be improving and would not eat so I started giving her a full tube. She is eating all her grain now and seems to be responding. I intend to follow your 8 week treatment plan even though the vet said just 28 days of a full tube. Merial says it is okay to train and ride and your article says to give her rest. How do I know when I can ride her again or do you just recommend not riding her during the 8 week treatment? |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 20765
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 2, 2008 - 6:52 am: | |
When we suspect ulcers we recommend rest while we treat. Did you ever get the siphoning deal straightened out with your vet? I assume there had been some miscommunication there.
DrO |
gaitedlady
Member
Username: jebe
Post Number: 11
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 2, 2008 - 8:19 am: | |
My vet said it couldn't be done and that in fact to siphon it out they would have had to ad more water to her stomach which was already full of water. I know you are right as one of his vets oiled this horse last year as she was colicking and she siphoned her stomach contents out before oiling.
After the 8 week treatment what is your recommendation for maintenance? I did read the article, but how do you know what is going to be stressful enough to bring up an ulcer again? |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 20769
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 2, 2008 - 5:53 pm: | |
We recommend you follow the preventive management recommendations as close as possible and if you still feel there is a potential for problems there is a maintenance dose in the the prevention section.
DrO |
gaitedlady
Member
Username: jebe
Post Number: 12
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 2, 2008 - 8:53 pm: | |
Thanks Dr. O. One more question. I noticed that Ulcergard uses a 1/4 tube for the second month and gastrogard uses a 1/2 tube for the second month. Which have you found is necessary? My horse weighs about 900 lbs.
Thanks for your input! |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 20772
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jun 3, 2008 - 9:02 am: | |
I would use the calculated mg/lb in the article for maintenance for the second month. Whatever part of a tube that is would be my recommendation. I try to avoid specifying a specific volume as formulations can change and then the volume recommendation becomes incorrect.
DrO |
gaitedlady
Member
Username: jebe
Post Number: 13
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, Jun 7, 2008 - 2:35 pm: | |
Hi Dr. O,
My horse seems to be feeling better and cleaning up all her feed. I have noticed though that her manure is changing. Before she started feeling bad again her manure was the size similar to a Tennessee Walking horse-she is a mountain horse. When she started feeling badly again her manure seemed to get smaller. She has been on the ulcergard for 2 weeks now and I noticed today her manure was even smaller similar to that of a paso fino horse...very small little balls. The vet said he thinks the ulcer is at the base of stomach where it exits the stomach. AGain, there was nothing definite to confirm it was an ulcer. Just wondering your thoughts on this and what other possibilities could there be with the change in manure size? It does make me wonder again about the other possibility mentioned by the vet of a tumor.
Thanks again for your input. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 20800
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Sunday, Jun 8, 2008 - 8:21 am: | |
I don't see any significance in the change of the size of the manure as long as the consistency is normal and the horse is healthy otherwise.
DrO |
gaitedlady
Member
Username: jebe
Post Number: 14
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, Jun 8, 2008 - 2:58 pm: | |
Okay, thanks. I appreciate your input. |
gaitedlady
Member
Username: jebe
Post Number: 15
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jun 11, 2008 - 8:44 am: | |
Is it safe to worm my horse while on the gastrogard? How can you tell the difference between blood in the fecal test caused by ulcers and ulcerations caused by small strongyles in the gut?
Thanks! |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 20837
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Jun 12, 2008 - 6:50 am: | |
There is no reason I know of they cannot be used together. For information on the SUCCEED fecal blood test see the article on gastric ulcers it discusses this aspect.
DrO |
