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LL
Member
Username: frances
Post Number: 687
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, Sep 29, 2008 - 3:45 am: |   |
Hi DrO,
Lately, my horse is slightly reluctant for me to pick up her LH, and when I do she snatches it up as high as she can and holds it there in a very intense, straining kind of way. When I release the leg, it remains in this high position for a few seconds before she lowers it slowly to the ground, and rests it for a while. Is this by any chance a clear symptom of a specific problem (stifle, hock, back?)
She doesn't do it every time I pick out the foot, and it's usually gone, or at least much better, after I've ridden her.
When ridden, she doesn't seem any different from usual really: she's been a bit uncomfortable at first in trot over the last few weeks, but she works out of it and I've put it down to her arthritis. (She's around 20 years old and has bone spavin and arthritic knees - also laid her right knee open in May - see post Lacerated Knee. I have her on Cortaflex HA, and only work her two or three times a week, with short trail rides in between. On this regime, and as long as I give her a really long warm-up, she's normally fine and moves well.)
I noticed something else yesterday and wondered if it could be the explanation, i.e. a cause of pain when the foot is picked up: the bulb of her heel on the same LH has developed two quite deep fissures, each like a continuation of the outside sulcus of the frog. It's as if the shoe is holding part of the the heel tissue in one place, but the rest of it is pulling away. We've gone from drought to rainy conditions over the last two weeks which may well be the cause.
Many thanks for your time. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 21445
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Monday, Sep 29, 2008 - 6:59 am: | |
Hello LL,
While there are some muscle and neurological problems that can be associated with such a reaction, there are also some horses that will behave this way without other signs of disease. They also may not like their flanks touched and show other signs of not caring for you to be around the back end.
Without more specific signs of disease I would be slow to spend much to investigate this and I would be more interested in the recent low grade lameness when first started. If you would like to read more about diseases that have such reactions are:
1) shivers
2) stringhalt
3) polysaccharide storage myopathies
You could start with any of the articles on each of these as they are interlinked but I would recommend Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Upper Rear Limb » Shivers.
DrO |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose
Post Number: 4071
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Monday, Sep 29, 2008 - 1:59 pm: | |
I have found horses will sometimes do this if they are arthritic, esp. in the hocks. |
LL
Member
Username: frances
Post Number: 689
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, Sep 29, 2008 - 2:38 pm: | |
Thank you DrO and Sara,
It does sound rather like shivers from the article, in that it occurs when the hind limb is raised as for shoeing. At the same time, I note (with some alarm) that certain plants can cause stringhalt, and that makes me wonder about the green leafy vegetables that I feed daily.
I don't think it's behavioural, as she doesn't mind having her feet picked out normally.
DrO, I take it that you do not feel the cracks in the heel bulbs could be causing pain when the hoof is lifted?
Sara: thank you, I'd be happy if it's just the arthritis I already know about, and not something new and hard to pinpoint. My trainer thinks it's probably just arthritis.
I think I'll wait and observe and read articles for a few more days (this only began 3 days ago). I'll also pour betadine into the heel cracks and cover them with zinc oxide ointment in the faint hope that they're the cause. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 21448
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Monday, Sep 29, 2008 - 9:11 pm: | |
I really have no way of knowing if that might be a cause LL, I suppose if it hurts worse once risen it might cause such a response either reflexive or an intentional attempt to avoid having it touched but that is just a supposition.
DrO |
LL
Member
Username: frances
Post Number: 690
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, Oct 1, 2008 - 7:22 am: | |
Yes I understand that. I'll post an update for anyone interested if I find out what it is, or if it mysteriously stops happening as suddenly as it started.
Thanks again. |
Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 2914
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Oct 1, 2008 - 7:35 am: | |
LL my old mare started doing that about 10 yrs. ago. I never had her diagnosed, but I believe it is arthritis in her hocks, but I am not sure. It acts a lot like shivers too. She remained rideable for the whole time. She is retired now at 29yo, but gets around just fine.
Before the farrier came I had to give her bute, which worked for many years. She did get to the point about 2yrs. ago that nothing helped....I finally quit having her back hooves trimmed, thankfully she "self trims" pretty well in the hinds.
I am definitley interested in your outcome, so please keep us updated |
Angie J.
Member
Username: ajudson1
Post Number: 2015
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Oct 1, 2008 - 8:22 am: | |
LL,
I have young mare, around 6, who always jerks her front feet when I pick them up. She jerks her foot up, not trying to put it down, and it's hard to get her to relax and put it on the hoof stand. I think for her, it's an anxiety thing, she was starved when we got her, and I think at some point she got tangled in something as she has some old scars around her legs.
On the other hand, my 19 year mare has started doing something similar to what you describe, I know she has some arthritis and she has ringbone in her front feet. She has some puffiness in her lower back legs too that comes and goes, she's always had that, but it's more consistent now.
I just take my time with both mares, and the older on is on joint supplement also. Have you tried that? I've had good luck with Aniflex Complete, I definitely see her moving better, and she's more comfortable with picking her feet up. |
LL
Member
Username: frances
Post Number: 691
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, Oct 1, 2008 - 1:46 pm: | |
Diane: yes, now I remember your thread about the difficulties in having your elderly mare shod. So that looked like shivers too? Giving bute before shoeing is a good idea - my mare's due to see the farrier in 9 or 10 days and I was wondering how she'll manage if she's still as she is now. How much bute did you give, and how many hours before? So glad to hear your mare is enjoying her retirement now.
Angie: yes, I've got her on Cortaflex HA Liquid. Today I loose schooled her for the first time since she cut her knee open about 6 months ago - handwalked her first to make sure she was at least warmed up before she did anything we'd both regret(!), she did her usual slightly ouchy trot at first, then it evened out, she exploded and bucked into canter, sped round and round, and ended up doing a beautiful trot, really tracking up and stretching out and down and very pleased with herself. Afterwards, picking out the LH was much closer to normal - but it generally seems to be so after exercise.
DrO: when you say "in the absence of other signs of disease", what other signs would there be if it were shivers? |
Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 2915
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Oct 1, 2008 - 6:05 pm: | |
LL I gave her 2 grams, 2-4 hrs before the farrier was due. 1 gram may have been enough but I wanted to make sure, and 2 grams of bute every six weeks wasn't going to kill her . Bute doesn't help shivers I don't think, but it did seem to help for awhile, whatever her problem is/was at the time.
She started out as you describe your mare, but slowly got worse over the years. When I decided to stop trimming her it had gotten so she would hold her back leg up to her stomach and it would just spasm, then it was hard for her to get it back down. It looked very painful, so decided against doing it anymore.
She has the natural hoof care in her rears, I haven't cleaned them out and she hasn't been trimmed for about a year and a half and is doing very well. You would never know she has anything wrong with her as long as you don't pick up the back hooves. She walks, trots, canters in the pasture with the boys, and even jumps the creek occasionaly. When she lays down she does "flop" some, but she can get up just fine thankfully. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 21460
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Oct 2, 2008 - 6:54 am: | |
You will find a complete discussion of the signs of shivers in the article I reference above: Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Upper Rear Limb » Shivers.
DrO |
LL
Member
Username: frances
Post Number: 693
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, Oct 3, 2008 - 7:47 am: | |
Thanks Diane,
I was also thinking after I posted that bute wouldn't work for shivers - unless shivers has an inflammatory component? If it does not, perhaps a few days of bute could be a good way of ruling out shivers in horses like ours which we know to have arthritis (ie if the discomfort/leg snatching etc. stops, it can't have been caused by shivers as the bute wouldn't have relieved it).
Does that make sense? |
Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 2922
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Oct 3, 2008 - 7:58 am: | |
LL makes perfect sense to me . The thing that confused me with my mare was that bute worked for quite awhile, then slowly she got worse and bute didn't seem to help at all. I switched to banamine and that again helped for awhile. Now nothing works. I don't know if her arthritis just got too bad or she has a progressive case of shivers(if there is such a thing)?
The vet and farrier both have said they have many older horse that can't have their back feet trimmed unless they are tranqued and laid down, I didn't like that option so decided to see how the ignoring the back hooves would go. It is working out fine for her.(so far anyway) |
Aileen
Member
Username: sunny66
Post Number: 2199
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Friday, Oct 3, 2008 - 9:54 am: | |
Hi LL, I have a very stoic morgan in my barn that does this with both back feet, his front feet are horrendous (coke can and HIGH heels)... while I think it may just be in the hind end, check the front diagonal leg, just to rule it out. |
Shannon Steketee
New Member
Username: stek
Post Number: 5
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Friday, Oct 3, 2008 - 11:39 am: | |
LL, my gelding has always done this with both hind feet .. picks them waaaaaaaay up when I ask for a hoof. As he has never shown any lameness (knock wood) I have always assumed it is just his polite nature. For example when I trim his fronts, rather than using a hoof stand he holds his foot out in front for me .. just barely resting it on my knee. What a gent :-) |
Gail Anderson
Member
Username: gailkin
Post Number: 122
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, Oct 4, 2008 - 3:01 pm: | |
The problem you describe is a very common problem with horses that have thrush. Often the frog may look okay, but the thrush can remain deep within the frog area and not show the usual signs of thrush. Do not be fooled by looking at the frog and thinking it is healthy. The cracks in the sulcus area are indicative of thrush. Unfortunately, the usual topical remedies will not help and can make matters worse since they can kill off healthy tissue. The best treatments are repeated soaks with a solution like oxine AH or White Lightning which will kill the thrush and allow the frog to heal. Linda Cowles has a good article on here website www.healthyhoof.com
My gelding started pulling his foot away after being barefoot all his life. It was such a change after so many years. It took me a while to figure out the problem was thrush which makes their frogs very sore. After treating him, he is now fine and perfectly happy to have his feet picked or worked on.
Thrush can also cause wry hoof, uneven heels, conformation problems, etc. I am sure many behavior problems are blamed on the horse when it is the painful frog that is causing the problems.
If you need more info on treatment, you can contact me.
Gail |
LL
Member
Username: frances
Post Number: 694
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, Oct 4, 2008 - 3:49 pm: | |
Aileen: I'll check the front diagonal just in case.
Shannon: the thing is that this is new behaviour in my horse. so I don't think she's just being polite. She is trying to offer me the RH to pick up instead (well p, which saddens me.
Gail: Well, her feet look dry, and I take a lot of care of them, but it is possible that she has deep-seated thrush I suppose - after all she does have those fissures. I feel as if I may have caused these, though, because there is not much space left between the shoe and the frog, and I've been rather aggressively trying to get in there with the hoof pick. I'll discuss it with the farrier who's due next Friday.
Thank you all so much for your advice/suggestions; I'm taking them all on board. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 21482
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Monday, Oct 6, 2008 - 7:39 am: | |
I disagree with Gail above, I don't find horses with thrush often lift their legs quickly and neither do I find cases of "occult thrush" that are likely to be missed by the farrier, vet, or an observant owner.
Occasionally you might find a poorly trimmed foot with a flap of horn, frog or bar, under which thrush is growing but that foot stinks about as bad as a regular foot. For more on the diagnosis and proper treatment of Thrush see Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Thrush.
DrO |
LL
Member
Username: frances
Post Number: 696
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, Oct 6, 2008 - 8:05 am: | |
I called my vet today and described my mare's symptoms. His response was that unless she had suffered any kind of trauma recently, it was shivers. He said there is not much to be done about it, exercise level can remain the same, and it is painless. He didn't feel it necessary to come out and examine her, given the symptoms I described.
DrO, I have the following questions:
1) if it is painless, why is she reluctant to let me pick up the foot in question, but offers me the other hind instead? To me that signals anticipation of pain or at least discomfort?
2) does phenylbutazone relieve the symptoms of shivers (is shivers at all inflammatory)?
3) if the answer to 2 is no, would you recommend a short course of bute to rule out any other cause, such as inconspicuous trauma or arthritis? |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 21494
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Monday, Oct 6, 2008 - 8:00 pm: | |
Taking your questions in order LL:
1) If it is painless: this can happen because horses tend to very sided in their learning often what is learned on one side in not known on the other...until taught.
2) No
3) Yes good doses for a goodly time
DrO |
LL
Member
Username: frances
Post Number: 697
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, Oct 7, 2008 - 1:17 am: | |
Hello DrO,
Thank you so much. What dose and time period would you recommend? |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 21500
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, Oct 7, 2008 - 12:55 pm: | |
Two weeks is often recommended as a trial run for diagnosing muscoskeletal pain. In our article on phenylbutazone you will find recommendations. Dosage should be set by your veterinarian.
DrO |
LL
Member
Username: frances
Post Number: 698
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, Oct 8, 2008 - 7:15 am: | |
She almost fell over yesterday and today when I was picking out her LH.
I've asked the vet to come out and give her a proper exam, and he's coming tomorrow, so I'll discuss the bute idea with him then.
Meanwhile, I'm busy rereading the articles on shivers, stringhalt, PSSM and tying up, and mean to ask him about possible ill effects from the leafy vegetables I've been feeding her (in case of stringhalt) and whether lots of apples and carrots could be causing a problem (in case of PSSM). although she gets almost zero grain.
Perhaps I should suggest a blood test to rule certain conditions in or out?
Thanks a lot for all the advice! |
Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 2946
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Oct 8, 2008 - 8:27 am: | |
Good Luck LL I hope it's nothing serious. That's why I stopped hoof care on my mare she got to the point of "falling over" and there was no stopping her. I'm positive it wasn't behavioral as she was very good up to that point.
Can you hold her hoof low and clean it? That worked for awhile for me also. She is now to the point of if you pick it up it goes right to her belly and "shivers"/spasms, and she can't hardly get it back down.
Let us know what your vet says! |
LL
Member
Username: frances
Post Number: 699
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, Oct 8, 2008 - 11:08 am: | |
Diane, not sure if I can get her to keep the hoof low - she goes from "please don't make me lift it" to "it's take-off time" in half a second.
Thanks for the good wishes, and I'll certainly report back! |
LL
Member
Username: frances
Post Number: 700
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, Oct 8, 2008 - 11:09 am: | |
...of course, when the vet comes she probably won't do it at all ... any bets?? |
Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 2947
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Oct 8, 2008 - 11:19 am: | |
That's a bet I wouldn't take! . |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 21514
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, Oct 8, 2008 - 7:38 pm: | |
Hmmm, the leg you are lifting has arthritis, the leg she is trying to balance on is painful, or she is training you to leave the foot alone.
DrO |
LL
Member
Username: frances
Post Number: 701
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, Oct 9, 2008 - 7:37 am: | |
Unfortunately, the vet said she definitely has shivers, combined with myopathy and a slightly inflamed stifle.
He gave her about 4 injections of cortisone and muscle relaxant between the vertebrae in the sacro iliac region, saying it may or may not help depending on whether there's something mechanical going on like a bone spur, or it's the muscles themselves (have I got that right??).
She's to be on box rest with handwalking for 3 days, then I should lunge her at walk and trot for a week (it's alright if she chooses to canter just a LITTLE  ).
Next week he wants to come back and blister the stifle.
Heigh ho.
Any thoughts DrO? |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 21518
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Oct 9, 2008 - 6:29 pm: | |
If it is pain then predosing with phenylbutazone several hours before working on the feet might help. I am uncertain how blistering is going to help any of the conditions you list. To address each of the specific conditions:
For more specific treatment of the inflamed joint see the article on Arthritis Overview.
For treatment on the myopathy see the article on Rhabdonmyolysis.
For treatment on the Shivers see the article on Shivers (but there is not much we can do about this one at this time).
DrO |
LL
Member
Username: frances
Post Number: 702
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, Oct 10, 2008 - 9:50 am: | |
Thanks DrO,
Re the inflamed stifle: I asked if he was going to inject it with cortisone, and did a sort of shock, gasp, horror response when he said no, he'd blister it. He just smiled and said it would be fine. When I got home I looked up blistering here and found that you differentiate between external blistering (as I remembered: extremely painful as well as ineffective) and internal blistering (much less painful, and effective in cases of UFP. Of course with shivers the flexion is in the other direction - would it still be helpful?) I must say I can't see why cortisone would not be preferable - don't see why ANY pain should be inflicted if not essential.
Re the myopathy: he found a lot of back pain in the muscles behind the saddle area, and felt that it was worth trying the injections in case the muscle pain was caused by an irregularity of the spinal cord, such as a bone spur. If this doesn't bring relief, he will conclude that the problem lies in the muscle itself - and then I presume we proceed to treating it as PSSM. Perhaps I was wrong in using the term myopathy when I just meant muscle pain from any cause.
Don't know if this clarifies things?
I've always trusted this vet as he seemed to be on the same page as you DrO. Oh dear, hope he still is... |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 21539
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Sunday, Oct 12, 2008 - 8:56 am: | |
I do not believe blistering is effective for shivers LL and I am not sure I why you would blister the stifle because the horse picks the leg up quickly.
DrO |
Vicki Zaneis
Member
Username: vickiann
Post Number: 739
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, Oct 12, 2008 - 3:00 pm: | |
All my boys at different times have had some issues over the years about picking up a particular foot. Often this had to do with not wanting to put more weight on another foot. Sometimes one boy is unwilling to pick up a particular foot before a ride, but afterward he is fine. He has been diagnosed with DJD though generally does fine for me. Also have a horse who will pull the rear leg up high like you described, and when he starts to do this, it helps him if we gently pull the leg back for a good stretch before asking him to hold it for trimming position. After trimming, when you give the foot back to the horse and he stands on it again, watch to see if he lifts any other foot up (opposite or diagonal?) to briefly relieve the pressure. With regard to blistering, many Veterinarians now seem to believe that this is archaic torture, although I know that some others still do it. It would seem to me that there would be a better way to accomplish whatever the goal is of this act. |
LL
Member
Username: frances
Post Number: 706
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, Oct 13, 2008 - 1:51 am: | |
Hello DrO,
I don't think I made it clear that the vet wants to INJECT the stifle with a blister, i.e. give an internal blister. I told him I would rather not, and he said gently that it really only hurts a little, and only for a day, and that it is really beneficial and without the side effects of cortisone and bute.
What do you think? I don't know whether to absolutely refuse or whether, based on a thread from you that I found here, INTERNAL blisters are acceptable and do have merit?
Thanks Vicki, and I will try pulling the leg back as you mention. I agree about blistering being barbaric, and had always sworn never to allow it, but this vet has always come up trumps for us and I'm wondering if internal blisters may be quite different? |
LL
Member
Username: frances
Post Number: 707
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, Oct 13, 2008 - 1:59 am: | |
Hi DrO,
For some reason this whole thread was missing from my Today's Discussions page - I had to go and search for it in previous days' discussions and then only saw Vicki's post at first.
So now, to answer your last post: the internal stifle blister is nothing to do with the shivers but because the stifle is inflamed (see first paragraph of my Oct. 9th post). |
Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 2985
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Monday, Oct 13, 2008 - 5:37 am: | |
LL whatever you decide, let us know the results please. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 21543
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Monday, Oct 13, 2008 - 8:40 am: | |
Hello LL,
You have to ask yourself merit for what? Antibiotics have merit but won't help angular limb deformities. I have understood all along LL and I have never seen a recommendation to internally blister a inflamed stifle: if inflammation is the problem why inflame the MP Ligament? Is this horse clearly lame on this leg?
DrO |
LL
Member
Username: frances
Post Number: 709
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, Oct 13, 2008 - 9:10 am: | |
No, not lame. Actually I have never understood the theory of counter-irritation at all. |
tania wadzinski
Member
Username: twadwis
Post Number: 7
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Monday, Oct 13, 2008 - 11:24 am: | |
Over the last few years the Amish have moved into our area so there are many off the track standardbreds flying up and down the road. The majority of these poor beasts have some sort of lameness issues and many 'methods' of treatment, one of which is iodine injections in the stifle joint. I was shocked when the vet suggested that and also to lightly drive the horse daily to 'continue to build scar tissue'. I only observed the one case and it did not work but the vet said the stifle was really loose and they have better outcomes if injected earlier. I had forgotten about it until this discussion. The vet is an equine specialist and has a racetrack background. |
LL
Member
Username: frances
Post Number: 710
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, Oct 14, 2008 - 1:03 am: | |
That's interesting, Tania - thanks. Is this your vet? |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 21548
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, Oct 14, 2008 - 9:34 am: | |
The idea behind counterirritation is to take a "smoldering" condition that refuses to heal and get it inflamed enough that the body brings in white blood cells and new blood supply to clean up and repair the condition. There is not a lot of support for the majority of historical uses, like blistering a bowed tendon, but the practice continues. In the case of blistering a stifle ligament the idea is to get it to form scar tissue with thickens the ligament and help prevent if from getting locked in a groove that it has to ride over. |
