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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3655
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2009 - 5:42 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dr.O today the old mare was walking along and hit a patch of mud and did the splits...I saw it happen.

Her front legs went all the way in front of her and her back legs slid up under her, it was terrible to watch. She managed to get up and was reluctant at first to weight her Rt. hind....that is her bad leg anyway. Then when she took a step she was limping terribly on the left front. I grabbed a halter, locked her in the lean to and immediately called the vet.

He was out within 15 minutes and gave her an exam, it doesn't seem as if she did anything to tendon/ligaments (according to him) he thinks it is more muscle related and proceeded to tell me horror stories about 2 other oldies that had done that recently and died with in 2 days from blood clots He didn't tell me this to scare me, but wanted to give her banamine and a shot of Vit.K just in case of the blood clots. I had never heard of this, and didn't have time to come in here and check HA. So anyway she got banamine a Vit.K shot...which I hope is OK?

I asked about locking her in a 12x12 stall ...which concerns me because if she laid down I'm not sure she could get up in such a small area.

In the mean time the geldings are running nuts out in the pasture because their mare is locked in, which in most cases wouldn't bother me, but I didn't want one of them slipping and hurting themselves.

SOOO the vet said to lock them all in the lean-to paddock give them all the hay they can eat and then some. They are all locked in now and the boys don't pick on the mare as long as they have food...they don't pick on her anyway. Vet said he thought it would be better for her to move a little or she may stiffen up like a board.

I just don't know if all of this is right and I am terribly concerned.

I am to give her banamine every 12 hrs. and keep her confined to the lean/paddock area which is about 40' long and 36' deep...with VERY good footing. Does this sound ok? Help

Thanks
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Sara Wolff
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Username: mrose

Post Number: 4585
Registered: 1-2000
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2009 - 8:04 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Diane, I know you're waiting to hear from Dr.O, but I just thought I'd throw in my two cents: you know me~!

Our old mare hurt her tendon, although we didn't realize it at the time. Thought she had just pulled a muscle, at most. I wish now that we had given her more exercise because it might have prevented the FM she has just been diagnosed with. If the vet is concerned about blood clots, I guess maybe extra movement might be a problem? Did he tell you for how long you have to worry about clots?

Hope the old girl is o.k.! Poor thing; that had to have hurt! I take it you have ice where you are? I can take the snow "up to my ears" buy hate ice; it is so scary with the horses. Hope the old girl is no worse for the wear.
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Vicki Zaneis
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Username: vickiann

Post Number: 907
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2009 - 8:43 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane,

I hope that Dr. O will express an opinion about the Vitamin K shot.

Giving Vitamin K this way is not without risk to kidneys.

It is a vitamin that given that way can have ill effects, from what I have learned but perhaps it was indicated by the circumstances.
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3657
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2009 - 9:49 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Great, I wasn't too keen on the Vit.K, but wasn't really sure. I just don't know what to think of my vet sometimes ( he is all I have) he also wanted to give her a shot of penicillion, for weird reasons I won't go into and asked me if that made sense, I said NO, I got a frustrated look , but she wasn't given one...I hope that was the right decision!

I just went out and checked her and she is eating fine. I took them out a licorice treat and she limped over for hers( I wanted to see how she was moving) It really appears as though her front leg is bothering her more than the rear at this point. IF I had to guess I would say it's in her knee or shoulder. I can't detect heat or swelling anywhere, but I'm not real good at that. She is stiff behind also...I feel horrible for her. I'm afraid if she does lie down she won't be getting back up.

The good news I guess is her appetite is good, and her attitude is bright.

Dr.O. if I could get a video of her tomorrow could that help you, help me??? If the Vit.K don't kill her first.

Thanks
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Sara Wolff
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Username: mrose

Post Number: 4588
Registered: 1-2000
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2009 - 10:22 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hey Diane, I don't think the Vit.K will kill her! I think one of the main reasons to be careful about Vit.K is the thinning of the blood, which if your vet is concerned about clots, would be what you would want for awhile. Just don't conk her on the head for awhile!

I wish you the best with the old girl. I can sympathize!
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3658
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Thursday, Feb 12, 2009 - 4:58 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks Sara, after reading the article on VitK in here I felt ok about it, but after Vicki's comment I looked a little further and it would seem the synthetic version of it causes renal failure quite often in horses. I don't know for sure what he gave her or even if all injections are the synthetic version (Menadione), from what I read about it, the synthetic version causes acute renal failure quite reliably in horses. I've got to hope my vet wouldn't have given her that.
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3659
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Thursday, Feb 12, 2009 - 8:08 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

This morning she looked the same, no worse anyway. Her knee doesn't seem to want to stay locked for very long on her injured front. She did lay down last night according to the shavings on her coat, so gratefully she was able to get up, which really surprises me.

She does seem a little more depressed today, but I think that's because I gave her banamine and she always hangs her head and acts depressed after that, she does the same thing with bute also.

She ate well, but I am concerned there is more damage than pulled muscles. I still do not feel any heat or see any swelling (that isn't normal for her)

I will try to get a video this afternoon.
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LL
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Username: frances

Post Number: 826
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Thursday, Feb 12, 2009 - 8:33 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Diane,

Sorry to hear about your mare's accident. The vitamin K part made me scratch my head a bit though: I have always believed vitamin K ENABLES coagulation of the blood.

Just in case I was having a senior moment, I googled it and, yup, vitamin K promotes clotting. Perhaps you misunderstood your vet and he gave her an injection that inhibits vitamin K production?

Anyway, this is not said in order to worry you, and I'm sure all will be well. Glad to hear that your mare is a little better today.

Wishing you all the best!
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Holly Wood
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Username: hollyw

Post Number: 156
Registered: 12-2008
Posted on Thursday, Feb 12, 2009 - 8:51 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I wonder, Diane, if she hyperextended that knee when she went spread-eagle.

I know that one time a horse tripped on a cone with me, at a canter, and he flipped, and I went spread-eagle on the sand, and for a couple of weeks, I was really sore . . . I was surprised at how long it took me to recover from that fall, but stretching out like that on impact does violent things to muscles and tendons.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
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Username: dro

Post Number: 22329
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Thursday, Feb 12, 2009 - 8:58 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I guess concerning the toxicity question we need to know if the form was K3 or not. The naturally occurring forms K1 (foods) and K2 (gi bacteria) are not known to be toxic.

I am having trouble getting my head around this idea of administering K to a horse to prevent either the formation of clots in the blood or the uptake of preformed clots into the blood stream from a site of hemorrhage. At least when there is no systemic disease that may predispose to Disseminated Intravascular Coagulation. Would it be possible to get a explanation for this?
DrO
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Ann
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Username: dres

Post Number: 2172
Registered: 10-2000
Posted on Thursday, Feb 12, 2009 - 10:10 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dog gone it Diane.. Ok I am thinking that she is feeling worse today then yesterday... it always hurt more a few days after..

I had a fall three weeks ago.. * old mare that I am..* and it has taken all this time for me to feel better..! I could not believe how bruised I was from falling from MY OWN TWO FEET , I tripped .. I fell hard and had to slink over to a post to get up, I was in that much pain.. the next couple of days I could barely walk.. but with time, I feel so much better..
Give her time , keep a eye on her.. I know you will..

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3660
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Thursday, Feb 12, 2009 - 11:07 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I stopped this morning and asked my vet to explain the vit.k to me again (it wasn't K3) So here goes. He said that a few horses he had seen do this had formed big hematomas and one had ruptured it's artery(can't remember which artery). He said it was HIS belief(now) that if he can give them a shot of K within 10 -15 mins. of the accident it may help with internal bleeding of stretched or ruptured tissue. I did ask him yesterday BEFORE he administered the shot if there could be a toxic reaction...he said no and thats why I let him do it. Figured couldn't hurt, might help (other than my pocket book)

I told him how she was doing today and he is convinced it is a muscle strain/pull...more from the way she's moving, and since we reacted so fast with anti inflammatories and the vit K In a weeks time she should be better.

I am working in town today, so ran home to let the boys out, and check her and to tell you the truth she looks MUCH better! When I opened the gat to let the boys out she was trying to sneak out with them

The vet said this morning to keep her on banamine for a couple days and then switch to bute for a couple more day and she should be fine...I hope so! He also said I could turn her out if footing allowed in the small pen...that I don't know about..but will play it by ear. Keep fingers crossed she continues to improve. That spill was one of the worse I've ever seen a horse take as far as legs splitting apart....back to work

Thanks
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Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter

Post Number: 3661
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Thursday, Feb 12, 2009 - 11:17 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

By the way Dr.O. and members, when I was questioning my vet about everything...he said I see you have been doing your homework again...good for you! Keeps me on my toes. Because of your articles and yours and the members advice, he respects my opinion on their care and let's me participate 100% in the decision making...tho we have had a few arguments!!!
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Vicki Zaneis
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Username: vickiann

Post Number: 909
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Thursday, Feb 12, 2009 - 11:42 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Glad that she seems to be doing better,Diane.

I agree with Dr. O that the Vitamin K idea seems rather strange in this case and certainly agree with you about the suggested penicillin shot.

Vitamin K is present in hay and unless there is a demonstrated shortage it is one vitamin I would hesitate to give, but it is hard not to follow a doctor's advice.

Here is a statement from the Ohio State Horse's nutrition bulletin regarding Vitamin K: Vitamin K
This vitamin is highly supplied in all forages, green or dried. It is also produced by the microbes in the cecum and colon and absorbed there. Vitamin K is necessary for normal blood coagulation. A deficiency is recognized by failure of the blood to clot when a cut or injury occurs. Dicumerol, a compound produced by a fungus on sweet-clover in the green or dried state, can cause a deficiency of Vitamin K. However, sweet-clover is rarely used to feed horses any more. Excess vitamin K has been shown to be toxic in some animals, causing rupture of the red blood cells.
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Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter

Post Number: 3662
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Thursday, Feb 12, 2009 - 3:54 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Ok I got a few short videos of her and would love your opinions...I know she can't be diagnosed from a video, she had some banamine about 9 hrs. before the video. Other than hooves I haven't dealt with lameness much (thank goodness).

Thanks

http://s158.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid158.photobucket.com/albums /t90/scooter_098/008.flv&fs=1&os=1&ap=1

http://s158.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid158.photobucket.com/albums /t90/scooter_098/009.flv&fs=1&os=1&ap=1

http://s158.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid158.photobucket.com/albums /t90/scooter_098/014.flv&fs=1&os=1&ap=1

http://s158.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid158.photobucket.com/albums /t90/scooter_098/019.flv&fs=1&os=1&ap=1
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Fran C
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Username: canter

Post Number: 1854
Registered: 1-2000
Posted on Thursday, Feb 12, 2009 - 4:36 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Poor old girl; she's definitely feeling the results of her fall. I'd give it a few days, Diane. As mentioned above, we've all taken a tumble that strained something and left us uncomfortable and gimping around for a bit. Unless there's obvious trauma, swelling or heat, I'd keep a close eye on her, give her the bute or banamine to keep her comfortable and continue to monitor. If she takes a turn for the worse, or she shows a big change in behavior (off feed, distressed, vitals change,etc), I'd call the vet out again.
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3663
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Thursday, Feb 12, 2009 - 5:36 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks I feel so bad for her, especially because of her age. She looks 100% better compared to yesterday and this morning.

As far as the Vit.K goes I did look up the shot the vet gave her, I don't understand all of the words, but from what I take away from it as far as toxicity it seems fairly safe, unless given IV which it wasn't. He gave it IM. IF and that's a big IF! I understand it right, it sounds like if they don't need it it is basically eliminated??? Here's the label
http://www.drugs.com/vet/amtech-vitamin-k1-injection.html
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Lilo
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Username: lilo

Post Number: 1043
Registered: 4-2000
Posted on Thursday, Feb 12, 2009 - 6:51 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane - best wishes to your old girl. I watched the videos and, while obviously uncomfortable, I was surprised she moved as well as she did.
Always something, isn't there?
Good luck,
Lilo
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Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter

Post Number: 3665
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Thursday, Feb 12, 2009 - 8:07 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks Lilo Maybe the Vit. K helped in some mysterious way. She was so sore yesterday she could hardy move without falling down, even after the vet gave her a good dose of banamine IV. I HOPE she continues to improve without any complications, she is a tough old girl, always has been
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Vicki Zaneis
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Username: vickiann

Post Number: 912
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Thursday, Feb 12, 2009 - 9:34 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

What a lovely mare.

Hope that she will continue to heal and feel better, Diane.
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Jo Ann Widner
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Username: jowidner

Post Number: 354
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Friday, Feb 13, 2009 - 12:43 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Poor girl! Poor you! I'm sure that you have been worried sick. I think that she looks rather good after taking such a bad fall.

My gelding fell hard last month after slipping in the mud that covered our frozen ground. He was extremely agitated and painful after the fall. He acted way more painful than when he fractured his knee almost six years ago to the date in the same nice level pasture that was slightly thawed on top. (Hmmm, maybe I should not turn my horses out in January ) Judging from the severity of his pain this time I thought for sure that he had broken or dislocated his shoulder, but thankfully it turned out that it was just severely bruised. But in the long wait before we were able to get his X-rays I think that I must have added a significant number of gray hairs to my head!

I hope your mare is like my guy and just sore and lame from the fall and nothing more serious than that. How old is she Diane? And you've had her forever haven't you? She must be like family.
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3666
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Friday, Feb 13, 2009 - 7:03 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Jo Ann Thanks! How long did it take your gelding to recover? Flash is almost 29 we bought her for my son when he was 7 yo for a birthday present $350 She was great for him, when he out grew her she taught many beginners how to ride and enjoy horses. She is very much part of our family, we still tell stories about her, and the joy and laughs she gave us! I had 3 foals from her...2 were very nice and then Hank was her last I think her sense of humor kicked in with him!
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3667
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Posted on Friday, Feb 13, 2009 - 8:18 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

WOW, the old girl is almost back to normal this morning. I decided to let her out in the small pen, the ground is froze and footing is good. She was very happy to get out of jail!
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Vicki Zaneis
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Username: vickiann

Post Number: 914
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Friday, Feb 13, 2009 - 10:28 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Great news, Diane.

Thanks for letting us know.
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Lilo
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Username: lilo

Post Number: 1045
Registered: 4-2000
Posted on Friday, Feb 13, 2009 - 10:29 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Go Flash!!!! Good news, Lilo
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Angela S
Member
Username: vera

Post Number: 42
Registered: 6-2008
Posted on Friday, Feb 13, 2009 - 8:00 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Vit K is needed for the formation of clotting factors II, VII, IX, and X. The anticoagulant Coumadin blocks Vit K activity, which prevents clotting. Still curious why the supplementation, but I'm glad that she is doing better.
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3668
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Friday, Feb 13, 2009 - 9:40 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I don't know either other than what he said in the post above. Maybe Dr,O. can tell us whether it is good, bad, or indifferent? It didn't seem to hurt her any, and her recovery has been quick with no swelling...She isn't 100% by any means but every day there is a big improvement. She did fine with small turn out. I didn't give her an anti inflammatory this morning and she didn't seem any worse. I do give it to her at night so she can lay down and get up better.

So in a nutshell he said the K1 injection was to help insure she didn't bleed internally and he thinks it would help with torn muscle tissue or soft tissue injury, and I guess to help deter the formation of hematomas. I gather that is his own opinion, but he mumbled something about reading many papers about it. He was busy, so I didn't pursue it any further. He does come up with some off the wall things, but as long as they are harmless and might help it's fine with me. I like it that he will think outside "the box"....even if it is weird...the penicillion was a little too far out tho!
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Jo Ann Widner
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Username: jowidner

Post Number: 356
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Friday, Feb 13, 2009 - 9:54 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane, I'm so glad Flash is making steady progress. It took about a week for my gelding's obvious lameness to resolve and then another three weeks before he was completely back to his old self.

I have noticed that since this fall he is being quite a bit more careful about where he puts his feet. After reading Dr. O's post on memory, hopefully we are good for another six years before he forgets that he needs to be careful and not play so hard on slick frozen ground!
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3669
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Saturday, Feb 14, 2009 - 8:11 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

She looks quite sore again this morning, I had her locked in over night. Mother nature decided to dump a few inches of snow on us. I don't know if she looks worse because she has to pick her legs up further due to the snow. I don't think it was from her small turnout yesterday, every time I checked her she was standing with her back leg cocked sunning her self. She looked good when I put her up for the night, she hadn't any banamine in the morning I also gave her 10cc of banamine last night. Hope this is just a minor set back, because it looks like she is back to square one (very sore). She will remain locked up in the lean to/paddock until footing is good. I plan on shoveling the paddock today.

Dr.O. what do you suggest for something like this??
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3670
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Saturday, Feb 14, 2009 - 8:37 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I forgot to add yesterday I noticed the hair in front of her pastern(directly above her hoof) was getting wore down to skin, I wonder if getting up, from laying down is a problem for her. The Lean is deeply bedded, but I suppose if she struggled to get up it would easily go to bare ground.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
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Username: dro

Post Number: 22351
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Saturday, Feb 14, 2009 - 8:53 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane, not being certain what is going on I am uncertain what the best course is: has the horse hurt itself further with yesterday's exercise or did the night up allow stiffness to set in? Your decision on what is best to do depends on you making this judgement.
DrO
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3671
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Saturday, Feb 14, 2009 - 9:07 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks Dr.O I am having a very hard time making judgement calls with this She wasn't stiff this morning, she was limping worse. I have to wonder if the getting up from laying down is the problem? She did lay down last night. She is locked in the lean/paddock so she can move around if she pleases to. The boys are with her at night, and out during the day. I've never seen them be mean to her, actually Hank protects her. Sam I never know, he will move her around a bit, but never chases her or does anything mean. Maybe I'll see if I can find enough gates to build her a pen and keep the boys away...just in case.

Thanks
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andym
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Username: andym

Post Number: 15
Registered: 12-2008
Posted on Saturday, Feb 14, 2009 - 9:50 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane,
Have been following your reports of your mare's problems.
Just a thought, but since you mentioned snow, do you blanket your mare ?
I have a 25 year old mare who gets cold if the temperature drops into the teens or below. It actually shows in her temperature. I keep her and my others blanketed in the winter except when I urn them out for exercise.
Cold muscles are like not warming up before
a competition. Soreness follows.

Andy
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Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter

Post Number: 3672
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Saturday, Feb 14, 2009 - 10:09 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks Andy No I don't blanket her, I don't believe this is from cold.

I just gave her a good going over and there is some major swelling apparent now. all the way from the middle of her cannon bone, to the coronet band. It is twice the size of her other one almost. Her knee does not lock in so she does not want to weight it much while standing. I have noticed, but wasn't sure that her fetlock is dropping further when walking on that leg, she has dropped fetlocks anyway, so I wasn't sure if I was seeing things or not and she has a lot of hair! I think it may be visible in one of the videos above (left front) NOW WHAT??? I guess I better start reading some articles. I don't know whether to wrap, I'd love to cold hose it but not possible in this weather. I'm going to build her a smaller pen, yet big enough so she can hopefully get up and down.

Here's a video of her shaky knee, you can see the swelling too.
http://s158.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid158.photobucket.com/albums/t90/scooter_098/005.flv&fs=1&os=1&ap=1

Here's a pic of the sore she is getting UGHHH


ANY advice is welcome. Thanks
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Angie J.
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Username: ajudson1

Post Number: 2373
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Saturday, Feb 14, 2009 - 10:23 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

It looks like the knee is weak, so I think I'd wrap it. Unless someone can tell me why in any case that would be a bad idea?

I do know the older I get, the more things hurt, the longer I keep bruises, and the stiffer I move the next day. You should have heard me whining last Sunday: I trimmed 10 feet, (took 3 days before I could do the other 6) 5 weeks since last trim, and my wrists and hands hurt so much I could hardly move the next day! And my back, and my...dang! LOL!

So I'd just support her in various ways. Bute or Banamine, wraps, blankets, etc. A light blanket would help unless it's pretty warm out. If her system has to work to keep her warm, while trying to help her heal, it will make the healing take longer. Make sense? Even if she don't seem cold. I do this with my Arab sometimes. I do watch carefully to see how she is doing because she does have a thick winter coat also, and sometimes I just blanket her at night, sometimes a few hours just to get her comfy.

I know you'll watch her like a hawk!
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Lilo
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Username: lilo

Post Number: 1046
Registered: 4-2000
Posted on Saturday, Feb 14, 2009 - 10:31 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Diane - so sorry to hear about the setback. Can't give you any advice - just positive thoughts for the old girl.

All the best,
Lilo
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Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter

Post Number: 3673
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Saturday, Feb 14, 2009 - 10:34 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Angie, I don't think it is her knee, I THINK it is not locking in because she doesn't want to weight that leg. I believe it is probably some kind of tendon/ or ligament damage further down. I'm afraid this is as bad as I initially thought it was.

I think she would get hot in a blanket with all of her hair, we aren't having that terribly bitter cold stuff, and I don't want to hinder her in anyway as far as getting up and down.

Wrapping is NOT one of my strong points, I do have an old pair of SMB fetlock support boots, wonder if that would help or hinder?
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Vicki Zaneis
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Username: vickiann

Post Number: 917
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Saturday, Feb 14, 2009 - 10:48 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

So sorry to hear about this setback, Diane.
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Jo Ann Widner
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Username: jowidner

Post Number: 358
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Saturday, Feb 14, 2009 - 1:14 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Darn. I'm sorry too to hear of this setback.

Here's my two cents worth. First, I'd suggest calling your vet and asking him what he recommends.

She has such a furry coat I would not blanket her for fear that she would overheat. Could you put an infared light in your run-in so that she could stand under it if she gets cold at night, and yet could move away if she became too warm?

I would do as Angie suggests, supportive care to reduce that swelling. When my gelding fractured his knee (not saying that your mare has a fracture) he had significant swelling and we poulticed his leg and wrapped it to treat the swelling. He too had a winter coat, although not as hairy as your mare, and we poulticed right over the long hair. I know that one of the concerns was reducing the swelling before gravity pulled it all down into the tissues above the hoof where it could compromise the hoof, so I would think that that would be a good reason for you to aggressively treat the swelling with at least bandages and anti-inflammatories, if not cold hosing and pouliticing. If you can't cold hose, could you apply an ice pack?

Sending healing thoughts your way.
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3674
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Saturday, Feb 14, 2009 - 3:28 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks I did give her bute this morning. I did wrap it and she seemed to walk much better, as I said tho, my wrapping ability really lacks and I'm afraid I'll do more damage so I am going to leave it off at night. Turned out my boots are for the rear legs, I may order her some. I got her pen built, so hopefully that will help. I'm not sure how to keep the pastern sore from getting worse. The boots I'm considering also have a bell boot attached, so that would help with it I suppose.

Here are the boots I'm considering, anyone have any experience with these?
http://www.horse.com/SMB-Combo-Boots-BGP09.html?scode=hfroogle
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Jo Ann Widner
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Username: jowidner

Post Number: 359
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Saturday, Feb 14, 2009 - 3:49 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane, if you use nice thick layers of cotton underneath a quilt and then wrap it will help protect the leg from excessive or uneven pressure from a less than expert wrapping job.

There must be a nice how-to wrap article somewhere on the web to make sure that your technique is correct. Then its just a matter of practice. You can even practice on yourself or hubby inside where its warm to get the technique down before heading outside to wrap your mare in the cold.
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Vicki Zaneis
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Username: vickiann

Post Number: 919
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Saturday, Feb 14, 2009 - 4:21 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I think those boots that you are looking at are just like some that I bought to protect my horse's legs in an obstacle class and the accompanying instructions say not to leave them on for more than a fairly short amount of time, consistent with a good ride (3 - 4 hours maximum, I think, maybe even less).

The main thing that my Veterinarian stressed when he showed me how to wrap was to not put any tightness at all against the back of the leg when you go around it(just lay it against the back of the leg). Use the wrap across the front to ensure it isn't too loose and overlap the same amount of space with each round.
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3675
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Saturday, Feb 14, 2009 - 4:58 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I did read Dr.O.'s bandaging article, I'm still unsure of how well I did. I took them off for fear of doing more damage. When I worked at the event barn I was learning how to wrap pretty good. I remember his saying not to wrap against the way the tendon lays. I do have quilts for under wraps, I never did get it down real well, before I quit....don't trust myself. With the quilts I just can't seem to get them the right tightness, they usually fall down. I ordered the regular smb sports medicine boots. I have used them overnight before with no problem ( on rears), and also got separate bell boots to help with that rub.

Dr.O.'s article on bandaging does say the sports boots are a good substitute if you don't have wrapping down.
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3676
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Saturday, Feb 14, 2009 - 7:12 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dr.O. I just got done reading the flexor tendonitis article and it sounds as if this may be the problem It states they are reluctant to weight the heel as it stretches the tendon. She is now locked in a smaller pen where the geldings can't bother her.

There is remarkable swelling now and some heat. Please remember this is an old retired pony who will never be ridden again, and I don't have much for diagnostics in this area. My goal is for her to hopefully return to pasture soundness, rather than the alternative.

I am giving her a gram of bute 2x a day, I did poultice it and I just don't trust my wrapping ability...I did order her some boots that should be here by Tues. When she walks around her pen she doesn't look horrible and actually seems to improve a little as the day wears on. Her stall is about 18'x18' deeply bedded, her attached pen is about the same. I think getting up from laying down is aggravating this more than anything and why she seems worse in the mornings.

Is there anything you can suggest to help my old girl recover from this, other than what I'm doing?
I will continue to read articles

Thanks
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Vicki Zaneis
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Username: vickiann

Post Number: 922
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Saturday, Feb 14, 2009 - 9:31 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks for sharing this information, Diane. It is very good to know about the boots.

When my Lance had a minor injury of this nature in a rear leg, a Vet trimmed his toes shorter and raised his heels with a wedge shoe for that, but I am not saying that would be a correct treatment, though if I recall it seems to me that he said raising the heels was supposed to take the stress off. I wasn't able to use him for about six weeks and the swelling didn't last too long, as I recall.

Without checking with Dr. O I certainly would not presume to recommend doing this, especially on an older horse.

One thing that helped me to get the swelling finally out of Lance's legs when he was very sick was that after icing with ice wraps I gave a very thorough rub with witch hazel and it really worked wonderfully. It wouldn't hurt to try the Witch Hazel but Dr. O would have to comment about whether any icing would be in order.

It sounds like you are doing a great job with her, Diane.

Swelling can be so stubborn when in the legs, especially when the horse is not moving around much.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
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Username: dro

Post Number: 22355
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Sunday, Feb 15, 2009 - 8:52 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

DianeE, if you believe it to be an acute flexor tendonitis, the treatments listed there are those I would follow.
DrO
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Angie J.
Member
Username: ajudson1

Post Number: 2376
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Sunday, Feb 15, 2009 - 10:23 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane,

I have in my freezer some of the wraps that are the soft flexible leg wraps. It's a large brown wrap that velcros shut. Do you have such a thing around?

It's called "leg Fix Equine leg therapy" I know there are still things like that available. I think when I used it, I left is on for 20 minutes, I think the reasoning is after 20 minutes it starts heating up instead of cooling. This was many years ago, don't remember who needed it, or why.

I think I put vetwrap under the fetlock to pull the whole frozen wrap up also, and seems like someone chewed on it one time so I covered it while using it also.

(this popped into my head right before falling asleep last night, geesh Diane, it's enough I worry about my horses, now yours too!)
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3677
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Sunday, Feb 15, 2009 - 10:43 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Angie thank you for worrying about the poor old mare. Misery loves company right! I can't sleep at night worrying about her, then I don't want to go out in the morning for fear of what I might find!

Locking her up seems to have been the right thing to do. She looked pretty good this morning and I could tell she had laid down. She's always been a sort of self medicating mare, she must have some old survival instincts in her. She stands with that leg in a snow pile quite often! The swelling may have gone down just a tiny bit, and her limp wasn't near as bad as yesterday. Maybe that old coot Sam bothers her more than I am aware of at night. I hope she continues to improve...I need some sleep!
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LL
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Username: frances

Post Number: 828
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Sunday, Feb 15, 2009 - 1:02 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Glad to hear that things may be looking up for your mare. I do hope so.

And you, try to get some sleep!
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Lilo
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Username: lilo

Post Number: 1047
Registered: 4-2000
Posted on Sunday, Feb 15, 2009 - 3:30 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Keeping my fingers crossed that Flash is on the mend! Lilo
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Jo Ann Widner
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Username: jowidner

Post Number: 360
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Sunday, Feb 15, 2009 - 9:23 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Glad to hear she's looking better Diane. Boy do I know what you mean about losing sleep over sick or injured animals. With our latest "patients" I have been telling myself, "Okay, you've done all you can for now, and the best thing for everyone is for you to get some sleep so you'll be able to start over in the morning." Not a magic cure, but the thought that I can help my animals the most at that moment by getting some sleep does seem to help me let go of my worried thoughts long enough to get at least a little rest.
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Vicki Zaneis
Member
Username: vickiann

Post Number: 926
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Sunday, Feb 15, 2009 - 9:46 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Glad that she is looking better again, Diane.

It is very tiring riding the roller-coaster toward healing with all of the ups and downs that sometimes happen.

Hope that you get some rest yourself.
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3679
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Monday, Feb 16, 2009 - 5:45 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dr.O. I am giving Flash 1 gram of bute morning and night. Her swelling and heat are a little better, she doesn't mind me touching it. She is moving MUCH better again, and seems to be getting up and down easier (her rub is healing)

She gets diarrhea from bute and it's starting, would it be OK to cut her back to 1 gram a day at this point? How do I determine when I can take her off bute altogether? Would Previcox work for something like this? Banamine is a little pricey to use twice daily, especially since I use the paste form.

Thanks

Thanks For the good wishes and advice everyone, It's much appreciated and helps more than you know
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro

Post Number: 22361
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Monday, Feb 16, 2009 - 7:43 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane you certainly should discuss the options you list above with your veterinarian as I cannot give you specific information on dosing your horse.

There is more information on each of these drugs in the medication section but dosage should be reduced or discontinued whenever you get a toxic reaction. I do not know of any reason firocoxib could not be used in your case but don't know if it would be safer or not.
DrO
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3680
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Monday, Feb 16, 2009 - 11:00 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Vet called to see how Flash was (he is a NICE guy) he said to try 1 gram of bute a day, if that don't work will switch her back to banamine.

He also said since she has heat and swelling we should start her on antibiotics??? THEN after we had further conversation we decided to just let it be for now..He still thinks it is a muscle pull/sprain and the edema is working it's way down.

He said if she develops a fever or stars acting off we should start antibiotics. Dr.O. I did see in one of the articles I was reading that the tendon sheath can become infected, do you treat that with antibiotics if that's the case???

I KNOW we don't have a firm diagnosis, and probably won't. But I was just wondering about your thoughts on antibiotics IF this is a tear?

Thanks
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro

Post Number: 22364
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Monday, Feb 16, 2009 - 6:48 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Though not a joint, a tendon sheath is a synovial membrane and so is treated much like a septic joint for more see, Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Joint, Bone, Ligament Diseases » Joint Infection, Joint Ill, and Septic Arthritis.
DrO
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3681
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Monday, Feb 16, 2009 - 7:44 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks Dr.O. I guess I will try to remain optimistic that isn't the problem. I don't think we can do all that stuff in the article.

I take it antibiotics need to be injected into the sheath and oral antibiotics will do no good? The good news is the swelling is slowly going down and I don't detect any noticeable heat. I hand walked her about 50 feet today and she is still limping, but not quite as bad as Sat. (she didn't have bute this morning. Funny thing when I was walking her it looked like she was lame on the RIGHT front tonight????? In her pen moving at will she doesn't have a very noticeable limp.

On a light note, I had to go buy her one of those heated muck buckets for water. I have it outside the lean to in the corner of the paddock. She had drank about 10 gals. since yesterday, so as I was filling it up tonight There was a BUNCH of shavings floating in it. I couldn't quite figure out how she had gotten so many shavings in it, figured she must have had a bunch stuck to her head or something when she got a drink. As I was making supper tonight I could see her standing by her water with her head hanging over the fence, and as I looked closer she was standing with her leg in it i was going to go out and take a pic, but she had removed it before I could....My self medicating mare...gotta love her
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LL
Member
Username: frances

Post Number: 829
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 17, 2009 - 6:53 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

What a clever girl!
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Angie J.
Member
Username: ajudson1

Post Number: 2379
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 17, 2009 - 9:26 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Ya, what a smart mare!

We had a Shetland pony years ago who had foundered early in her life. I knew nothing about that at the time, no HA, and we left her heels longer, watched her diet best we knew how.

Thinking she wouldn't have problems eating hay with the other horses during the winter, we left her with the herd. She would eat, then we'd seeing her standing in the deepest snow available. Everytime her pulse would be up, and her hoofs would feel warmer to me. Unfortunately she didn't have that wisdom to self medicate on pasture, and we sold her as soon as our daughter out grew her because monitering in the summer was a real pain for us back then.

Those mares and their quirks, huh?!
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Vicki Zaneis
Member
Username: vickiann

Post Number: 928
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 17, 2009 - 11:49 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane, If you think the mare is favoring the injured side by placing more weight on it when standing around, watch out for any signs of stress/laminitis on the opposite side as you reduce the pain medications.

It startles me when you say that she looked lame on the right front last night.
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3686
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 17, 2009 - 7:52 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I hand walked her again tonight, when she started out she was landing on her toes and kind of trippy. A little further and she was landing right and didn't look too bad, a little further and the limp on LF came into play and she looks stiff on the right. She is locking her knee for the most part now, but I can tell she isn't weighting that LF fully most of the time...I am keeping an eye on the RF.

The conclusion I can come to is she walks on her toes first because she is stiff and doesn't want to stretch that tendon, then when she walks right the tendon is stretching and the limping starts?? Once I had walked her for a few minutes she didn't look real bad. I hope she can come out of this pasture sound. Her attitude is still bright, appetite good and vitals wnl. The swelling is down a bit more tonight. Her boots will be here tomorrow, but I don't have a good feeling about this at all.
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Jo Ann Widner
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Username: jowidner

Post Number: 361
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 17, 2009 - 9:04 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

You do have one smart little horse there Diane.

Regarding your "bad feeling" - don't forget that its early yet if you are dealing with a tendon injury. Tendons take a long time to heal, but since you do have a smart horse she will be a good patient and give herself the opportunity to get better with the attentive and supportive care that you are giving her. Winter is hard anyway on us old arthritic women and I'm sure she is still very stiff and sore just from the fall itself. Hang in there.
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Vicki Zaneis
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Username: vickiann

Post Number: 932
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 17, 2009 - 10:20 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hang in there, Diane and don't be discouraged.
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3694
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Friday, Feb 20, 2009 - 6:43 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dr.O. how long would you expect an old horse to be "stiff" from a fall of this sort? By stiff I mean short strided in front, she walks like a horse with sore feet. I'm sure it's not her hooves, her stride doesn't change whether she is on hard or soft ground, no pulses, or heat.

I think it is her shoulders, as far as the stiffness anyway...Thanks
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro

Post Number: 22398
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Saturday, Feb 21, 2009 - 9:58 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Not having seen the injury or examined the horse I do not have any way to answer the specific questions about your horse. However horses slipping like this can have anything from bruises to torn ligaments and broken bones.
DrO
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3697
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Saturday, Feb 21, 2009 - 10:34 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I suppose so, I can rule out broken bone I think, when walking she is weight bearing. I have been hand walking her for about 10 mins. a day (weather permitting) and every day she looks a little better. She wasn't quite as "stiff" looking yesterday. She is still limping on LF but it has improved some too. In her paddock she looks almost normal (for her) I have noticed she picks up and puts down the left front every once in awhile. The other day she was sunning herself and had her right rear cocked, if I'm correct Don't they have to weight the front left to do that? I took it as a good sign tho she didn't keep rr cocked long.

The swelling is still going down and the heat has dissipated. She seems worse going up a small incline and looks good going down one...if that means anything

She willingly picks up Left front for hoof cleaning and doesn't seemed bothered by me touching her fetlock/leg doing that. She does refuse to pick up right front, so obviously she doesn't want to fully weight the left front and I don't make her. I didn't bute her last night as the diarrhea continues she didn't seem any more uncomfortable with out it this morning.

I am concerned about her attitude a little she seems a bit depressed, which I think is because she wants out with the boys. She is eating and drinking pretty well. Vitals are WNL. Her pen is attached to the geldings and she can see them where ever they go ( I locked them in the small pasture next to her) I DO NOT have a vet who can diagnose her problem, the joys of small town living, so am trying to do the best I can. Last time I talked to my vet all he said was to give her antibiotics...which I didn't.

Thanks
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Vicki Zaneis
Member
Username: vickiann

Post Number: 943
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Saturday, Feb 21, 2009 - 10:55 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

What great care you are providing, Diane.

I admire your dedication.
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Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter

Post Number: 3699
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Saturday, Feb 21, 2009 - 4:37 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks Vicki, I am dedicated...but great care is debatable I really am not very experienced with leg injuries, and I don't have much confidence in my vet for this either.

I just went out to give them an afternoon feeding since it is SOOOO miserable out...the wind is blowing hard and it's COLD! We got about 5 ins. of new snow....the mare was acting more uncomfortable than normal when I went out. I thought maybe it was because I hadn't given her bute....BUT no I think I figured it out, something I should have thought of earlier....she had gotten a snow ball in her hooves (poor thing) It wasn't in there when I went out, but I could see some had fallen out...that really has be good on the injured leg Snow is now shoveled in her paddock, day late and a dollar short tho! UGGHHH
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Vicki Zaneis
Member
Username: vickiann

Post Number: 944
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Saturday, Feb 21, 2009 - 9:45 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Oh, my. You have to fight the elements too!

I am feeling really spoiled after thinking that it was cold at 28 degrees this morning, which warmed up to nearly 70 and sunny.
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3700
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Sunday, Feb 22, 2009 - 10:58 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Well a little good news, I put Flashs boots on her during the day and she moves very nice in them. I can't hand walk her in the yard because the drifts are so deep. I took her out in the flat part of the pasture, where there isn't much snow and she was throwing her head and being crabby, she wanted me to let her go!

I just looked out the window and she is pacing the pen and pawing the gate...with her RT front Not happy about the gate pawing BUT she has to weight the left front completely to do that! It's the first time I have seen her weight the left front completely since her accident...she does have her boots on. HOPEFULLY we are finally on the road to recovery. She is going to stay locked up until she is back to HER level of normal soundness and footing is good. She is really starting to be testy about paddock lock up tho
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LL
Member
Username: frances

Post Number: 832
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Sunday, Feb 22, 2009 - 12:07 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hang in there Diane! Glad to hear things are looking up, even if Flash objects to her role of princess imprisoned in her castle.
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Jo Ann Widner
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Username: jowidner

Post Number: 366
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Sunday, Feb 22, 2009 - 12:42 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Yea! Glad to hear she is doing better Diane.

LL - That's cute!
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leslie645
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Username: leslie1

Post Number: 627
Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Sunday, Feb 22, 2009 - 2:08 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

good to hear dianeE
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Lilo
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Username: lilo

Post Number: 1049
Registered: 4-2000
Posted on Monday, Feb 23, 2009 - 11:39 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Great news. I hope your footing improves so she can get out soon.
Lilo
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Vicki Zaneis
Member
Username: vickiann

Post Number: 947
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Monday, Feb 23, 2009 - 8:14 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hoping for consistent improvement, Diane.
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Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter

Post Number: 3714
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 25, 2009 - 7:47 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dr.O. I have been wading through all the articles.

Flash continues to improve slowly. Her swelling is still there, but much better...no heat that I can detect. I have been hand walking her for 5-10 mins. daily. Today I decided to walk her a bit on the road where the ground is hard to see how she would do. She seems to move Better on the road, then soft ground. She isn't walking on her toes anymore and tripping all the time. Her limp is still there but not nearly as bad...sometimes she doesn't limp at all.

After looking through all the articles again all I can do is try to self diagnosis her and treat her to the best of my ability. Her symptoms definitley resemble suspensory desmitis.

I know we don't have a firm diagnosis...the vet still thinks it's muscle related...I don't

A couple things concern me and was hoping you can help me out a bit.

1. When she walks that fetlock is dropping quite a bit more than the other..her fetlocks are dropping anyway and she has the look of a DSLD horse ( even before injury)

2. when in her paddock or stall just standing she is not fully weighting that leg most of the time, she picks it up and puts it down a bit. Not a lot, but more than normal.

3. I took her off of bute because of the diarrhea, she hasn't had any for a few days and doesn't seem any worse and swelling is still going down slowly. Should she still be on some sort of anti- inflammatory?

Some people have asked why don't I just put her down. I don't see any reason, she is in good spirits...even a little cocky. She doesn't seem to be in terrible pain. She is eating well and pawing the gate to get out with boys. She seems happy (except about lock up!) She moves around her paddock well. I know she is an old horse with multiple problems, but all of them have been quite manageable for the most part. Other than her sway back she looks good, shiny coat, vet says she has all of her teeth and they are in remarkable shape for her age.

I just don't know where to go from here. Since I don't have diagnostics available (including blocks) and probably couldn't bring myself to spend that much on an old retired horse, I am going to treat this as SD. From the articles it matches the best. How do I decide when it's safe to turn her out again? I'm sure it won't be for quite awhile, considering I don't have ultrasound available would return to soundness (for her) be a determining factor? I don't want to do it too soon.

Any other advice for treatment is more than welcome...Thanks
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro

Post Number: 22442
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Thursday, Feb 26, 2009 - 9:49 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane, if you think the diarrhea was due to the NSAID use further use may cause severe disease. Without a firm diagnosis it is hard to give advice and I think the best rules will be in the article on First Aid for Lameness. If you treat it as a suspensory issue follow the treatment recommendations there and without ultrasound monitoring you are left with monitoring how exercise effects the lameness.
DrO
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Nicole Tucker
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Username: rorien

Post Number: 54
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Thursday, Feb 26, 2009 - 12:43 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane, don't listen to anyone else but Flash herself, when deciding to put her down. And, she'll let you know, too. From the sound of it, you're right, there is no reason.

Sounds like she's a fighter, and that she's got alot more living yet to do. =)

Nicole
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Angie J.
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Username: ajudson1

Post Number: 2392
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Thursday, Feb 26, 2009 - 1:33 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Geesh Diane, if we started putting our horses down over every limp, muscle soreness, or illness, heck I'd have horse cemetery, and no live horses left!

You should have been here when Willow couldn't lift her head all the way up, and walked like she had one too many Jack Daniels! Three days I wondered if she had a spinal injury or what? She came out of it, and still races around like a young filly, instead of a middle aged mare!

And I never knew where her injury was for sure, and guessed she hit a fence post from the scid marks on the ground.

Flash has many years left I would bet on it. She's good a good attitude, and she's going to be fine!
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leslie645
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Username: leslie1

Post Number: 640
Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Thursday, Feb 26, 2009 - 1:46 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Yeppers, I agree with above posts!
Its all about quality of life...and she sounds happy!

Ps Next time someone mentions her sway back just say "Hey, we all sag a little somewhere!
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3715
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Thursday, Feb 26, 2009 - 3:20 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dr.O thanks. One more question if I may, What do you mean by monitoring return to exercises in her case?? Once she is sound hand walking, do I go to small turnout and monitor from there? Or would it be better to lunge her first (once sound hand walking)

Thanks guys! I don't think she's ready at all!, you do get to second guessing yourself sometimes tho, of course the people that think I should put her down are not horse people...so that explains a lot. I didn't even get a speech from hubby for the initial emergency call (he says she's the best horse I've ever owned) Then the boots arrives...no speech again LOL, he even said they are a good idea.

Poor Hank he is standing guard by the gate, he loves his mother! He even itches her between the gates.
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3chip
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Username: 3chip

Post Number: 9
Registered: 1-2009
Posted on Thursday, Feb 26, 2009 - 5:40 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I am not Doctor O but I would let this horse come back at her own pace. You won't, and in my opinion shouldn't, be working her at all, lunging or otherwise. She will come back and be just fine but just don't try to push her at all.
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3716
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Thursday, Feb 26, 2009 - 6:13 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

3chip, that is my intention and exactly why I asked the exercise question. I have no intention of ever "working" this old girl. I was just wondering how to determine she is ready to go back out in turnout with the boys. My pasture is mostly hills, and I want to make sure she can tolerate turnout when the time comes without making things worse.

She'd probably look at me as if I was nuts if I lunged her, but it may help determine her "tolerance"....I'm talking way down the line (mos. probably) at walk, very slow trot. She is going to remain "the princess in her Palace" for quite sometime footing is horrible around here and I didn't even dare hand walk her today
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Jo Ann Widner
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Username: jowidner

Post Number: 369
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Thursday, Feb 26, 2009 - 6:39 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Diane, I'm glad you're not listening to those folks who asked you why you don't put Flash down. As long as she's happy to be here on the side of the living then that's what counts.

As far as gauging when she's ready for turnout, could you slowly increase the area of her "palace" using electric tape as her soudness returns? This is what we did for my boy when he was recovering from his fracture. My vet had me do stall rest at first, then added hand walking, then added 12 X 12 foot space next to stall using electric fence, then just kept slowly increasing that outdoor space until he was okay in a 80 X 50 space, and lastly full turnout in the regular pasture with my other horse.

I can see why you would want to be cautious with her given your hills and footing and other horses to run with. Come spring she may want to run with the herd over hill and dale before her leg is ready for it.
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3717
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Thursday, Feb 26, 2009 - 9:12 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks Jo Ann. There is a pen attached to her Palace...it is the drylot, I put the fat pigs in it in the spring. If it isn't necessary to lock the geldings in there, it would be perfect for her as I have it sectioned off in different sized lots. The downside is the way the gates run into the dry lot it isn't possible to have the boys in one side and the mare in the other...maybe with some luck the geldings won't have to be dry lotted ...which I doubt!
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3chip
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Username: 3chip

Post Number: 10
Registered: 1-2009
Posted on Thursday, Feb 26, 2009 - 11:45 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane, what part of the country do you live in? I am in Montana and all in all the weather had been pretty mild though December was cold. My experience with these old friends has shown the older horses, as is the case in humans, will do a lot to take care of themselves. If you have a drylot she'll be fine there for a time, perhaps forever. Then you could start to expand her area with electric tape if you wish. And these older girls get attached to others and may do well if she had some company in the drylot with her. They are amazing and if we humans don't meddle to much they seem to recover from many things easily with a small bit of human intervention. I predict your mare will be fine in a few weeks or perhaps several months. Just remember, she wants to get well just as badly as you want her to get well. And you will get the added benefit of her adoration of you in the process. Doesn't get much better than that!
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3720
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Friday, Feb 27, 2009 - 7:03 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

3chip I'm in NW Il. this winter has been miserable as always! Right now it is very muddy and slick. She loves the geldings, but Sam does move her around, so I don't want to put them in with her until she is up to that. Our pasture is mostly hills also, so I have to be very careful the footing is good. She can stay in her "Palace" as long as needed, she has a small paddock with good footing attached to her "stall".

The creek flooding took out the electric fences. Good thing she wasn't out then, hard telling where she might have ended up!
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
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Username: dro

Post Number: 22447
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Friday, Feb 27, 2009 - 8:18 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Return to exercise in her case Diane would be the amount of space she has to move around in.
DrO
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3721
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Friday, Feb 27, 2009 - 2:54 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I have a diagnosis. Vet came out to give the rabies shot today. He checked Flash, and he said he was most certain it is her superficial Flexor tendon (a high bow). He said the good news is he didn't feel any heat either, but it is still quite swollen. He said I was doing the right things and she would probably have to be in her "palace" for 6 mos. at least. He thought she was moving very well considering everything, a long recovery period, and thinks she will be fine (for her) so now at least I know what article to read!!!!
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Vicki Zaneis
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Username: vickiann

Post Number: 956
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Friday, Feb 27, 2009 - 4:45 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Good thing she has a "palace!"
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3726
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Friday, Feb 27, 2009 - 9:40 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dr.O. now that I know what I'm dealing with I have one nagging question in my head. There is no heat in Flashes tendon...vet didn't feel any either.

I have been putting her smb11 boots on for a few hours a day, usually 2-5 hrs. She seems very comfortable in them, but when I take them off her leg is sweating a bit. IF I understand your article correctly heat is good at this point, since the injury is "cool". When I take the boots off her swelling is also down. I just want to double check that this is OK? All I need to do is bow her other leg
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3731
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Saturday, Feb 28, 2009 - 4:38 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Flash Is really moving well now. Her limp doesn't appear anymore in our handwalk and Sara was right the old girl is getting to be a handful, I can't hardly keep up with her. I have to admit if I need to lock one up she's the one, she NEVER poops in her stall! I always wondered who made the huge pile in the corner of the paddock in the winter...now I know.

The "princess in her Palace"

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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3745
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 3, 2009 - 6:49 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dr.O. Flash is slowly improving. She still has mild swelling, no heat. She is walking better on our hand walks, but does start limping (stutter stepping) towards the end of our 10 mins. I usually stop when this happens.

Also she hasn't been trimmed for quite awhile, I canceled our last appt. in Jan. because of weather. I am going to have the farrier out soon and wondered if just trimming the sore leg to help with break over would be stupid? That would be the only hoof we could trim on her at this point (we don't do her backs) and she couldn't totally weight the Rt. front for trimming yet.

I think an anti-inflammatory would help her feel a little better and help with the swelling. I'm thinking about just giving her a half dose of banamine (paste) a day. Would half a dose still have an anti-inflammatory effect? Bute just doesn't agree with her.

Does a low dose of banamine act like a low dose of bute?

Thanks
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3757
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Saturday, Mar 7, 2009 - 8:27 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I still don't know what to think of the prognosis for this mare?? I read the article on tendonitis again, and I guess without ultra sound I won't know for sure. Some days I think she looks horrible and other days she looks pretty good.

When She is walking around her small paddock area she looks pretty good, altho that fetlock does seem to drop more than the other, in the article it says this indicates a rupture? Dr.O. If in fact she ruptured her SDFT other than a dropped fetlock is there any other symptoms? Such as severe lameness

On our hand walks the limping, stutter step has pretty much disappeared and she walks right up. At this point we are only walking 10 mins. but she can walk around her small paddock area.

The thing that concerns me most at this point is when just standing she still is not "loading" that leg completely Is this normal at this stage of the injury? She is putting a little more weight on it at times (but not fully) the shaky knee is about gone, but she still has it occasionally.

Yesterday it was a very nice day out and footing optimal, so I decided to let her in the dry lot while I cleaned the lean to. She walked around a bit and then decided to roll!! I wondered how she has been doing as far as getting up after lying down, I haven't seen her do that since her injury and had hoped she doesn't struggle much.

After a good roll she managed to get up much better than I would have imagined so I guess that's a good sign anyway. Rain all weekend so she is locked in the "palace" as footing is very slick. I took her off bute for awhile and have now started her back on it at 1 gram per day. The swelling has gone down immensely, but still present...no heat.

Her attitude is still perky and her appetite good.

I just hope I am not making her suffer with this if she will never recover, it weighs on the back of my mind daily.
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3chip
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Username: 3chip

Post Number: 14
Registered: 1-2009
Posted on Saturday, Mar 7, 2009 - 10:48 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I can't imagine what the Vitamin K was for in this case. Usually it is used in cases involving ingestion of rat poison (warfarin) or clover toxicity. But I think from what you have stated here Diane, that your horse is going to be fine! Its only been a little over three weeks since her fall. Depending on the severity of the strained muscles or tendons it may take several more weeks or even several months until she fully recovers. From your posts it seems to me she is well on her way to recovery. And recover she will, given the time to do so. Be patient while the healing takes place.
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3758
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Sunday, Mar 8, 2009 - 7:42 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks 3chip, I have never dealt with a bowed tendon. Without ultra sound I don't know how to determine if she is getting better other than her "presentation" and I don't know what her "presentation" should be along the road to recovery....very frustrating! I have no trouble with being patient with this as long as it's possible to have a good outcome....that's my concern.

Is not weighting the leg completely (most of the time) when standing normal at this point? Anyone know that has dealt with a bowed tendon.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
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Username: dro

Post Number: 22500
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Sunday, Mar 8, 2009 - 8:41 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane a dropped fetlock can also occur with old age stretching of the suspensory/flexor apparatus, suspensory disease, bearing more weight on the leg, poor ap foot balance, and probably more...

The article carefully explains the symptoms you would see with SDF tendinitis including rupture. Don't get the diagnostic steps backwards: you don't diagnose a SDF rupture from a dropped fetlock, you first diagnose flexor problems and then consider how serious it is from changes in conformation associated with the injury to the tendons.
DrO
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3761
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Sunday, Mar 8, 2009 - 1:21 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks Dr.O. she does have dropped fetlocks due to old age or something, but immediately after the injury the left one was/is much lower than it used to be, I don't think I can write that off as coincidence as much as I'd like to.

I have read the article many times and am trying to follow rehab closely for moderate to severe. It does say initially they don't want to put weight on the heel so as to not stretch the tendon, I just have been wondering normally how long that goes on?

Any insight as to how long they don't weight the heel (continuously) would be helpful. She still picks up that leg and puts it down quite often. Fortunately the rt. leg seems to be holding up pretty well so far. The one thing that makes me have some hope is that her walking has improved greatly, moving about she looks almost normal (for her) standing still she looks more uncomfortable. Thanks}}
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3767
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Thursday, Mar 12, 2009 - 8:30 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dr.O. I am trying to follow the rehab protocol for tendonitis Minus the ultrasound. When weather and footing permits I have been walking Flash 10 mins. a day. Some days she will start limping, some days not. When the limp shows up should I stop if our 10 mins. isn't up?

Her swelling is gone, except there seems to be a "thickening" of the tendon about midway down the cannon bone. There is no heat. She moves around her paddock very comfortably without a limp. She is starting to weight the injured leg more often.

Everyday I check to see if she will let me pick up her right leg, and up until yesterday she refused (I didn't push the issue). Yesterday I asked again and she did pick it up I put it back down immediately, but was very happy she was finally willing to weight the bad leg. I can see the bow visually. I am giving her 1.5 grams of bute every other day and that seems to be working as far as keeping the diarrhea away and her comfortable.

So my 2 questions are should I still walk her when the limp appears if our 10 mins aren't up?

Is it ok to pick up her right leg daily (just for a second) to see if she can weight the left, she really needs a trim soon?

Thanks
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3769
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Thursday, Mar 12, 2009 - 9:50 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

HMMM I guess she answered my questions today. I haven't had her out for a walk or actually haven't paid much attention to her except a quick going over since last Fri. We had torrential rains for days and then the wind blew 50 mph for 2 days.

Today was cold but pleasant, so out we went for our walk. We went up and down the road and she was moving VERY well. Her foot falls on the pavement sounded very even, and she was walking very briskly....I had a hard time keeping up

We went our 10 mins. and no uneveness showed up, no limp. I went to head for the gate and she dragged me the other way. So that was good! After I got the little witch in her pen I watched her for quite awhile, she is not picking up and putting that leg down near as much as she had been. After their evening feed I asked for the right hoof to clean it and she gave it and stood perfectly still as I cleaned it...I was so happy about that!! She did have her bute about 24 hrs. prior, so I'm not sure if that is why, but don't think so since she has been getting it all along without much improvement. Since her left front is improving I am seeing a little soreness in her r. rear (her bad leg) I think that is more from a lack of movement then anything as she walks out of it well. That leg is arthritic and she has always gotten a little off on it when confined.

I'm hoping the footing will improve soon so I can let her out in the little dry lot connected to her pen. I think that will help that rt. rear quite a bit, and hopefully not hurt the left front worse.

I'm going to have the farrier out next week, which leads me to my next question that I HOPE you can lead me in the right direction. would it be a bad idea at this point to trim her heels? Would that tend to put more stress on the injured tendon? Physics seem to say it would maybe be a bad Idea, but physics isn't one of my strong subjects either I know my farrier will have NO idea.
I finally have hope that she may come out of this alright.

Thanks
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Angie J.
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Username: ajudson1

Post Number: 2420
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Friday, Mar 13, 2009 - 7:07 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Good news on the mare's movement! Egads, those winds lately, huh? I think our area had a new record, 74 mph gust!

As to your heel question, well, it depends. How long since her last trim? If it's been 8 weeks, I might say leave them a tad longer, if it would mean taking 1/2" off.

BUT, of course, if you change one thing about a hoof, you change everything else. So, if it's been awhile since trimming, you could leave the whole hoof a bit longer?

I guess for me, trimming my own hoofs, I would be cautious and just do a light trim all around, keeping things even. If it were my horse, and she's just getting back to normal, I wouldn't do too much...level hoof wall out, take off any loose frog, do mustang roll. But you are paying a farrier, and most likely on his schedule.

So, I guess my somewhat educated answer is: IT DEPENDS, lol!
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3770
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Friday, Mar 13, 2009 - 7:51 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I hate to admit it but it was before Christmas they were trimmed last. I canceled my Jan. Appt. because of weather and everyone's hooves are looking very long! So they are about 12 weeks out and it shows.

getting her break over back would help her out a lot I think. Her heels look very high at this point, unlike Hank she tends to grow more heel than toe and their frogs do look REALLY ragged.

I think you are probably right a light trim for them all to start with and maybe have the farrier back in 4 weeks. I have a feeling Hank would get sore also if trimmed all the way back at this point (if you want to see some long, broken, flared hooves...he's the poster boy...yet surprisingly very sound!)....Thanks
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Angie J.
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Username: ajudson1

Post Number: 2421
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Friday, Mar 13, 2009 - 8:51 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane,

All those years I paid someone to trim, I also would go about 12 weeks over the coldest part of the winter. So don't feel bad, it's just our nature to not want to be out there holding a horse when it's -20 or so, and the wind blowing, the barn shaking, and all the rest of it.

I went over 4 weeks twice this winter, and the hoofs didn't look bad, but I really struggled with only using the rasp and knife. Back to my 3 week tweaks, easier on my hands & wrists, and much easier time wise too. And healthiest for the horses,
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro

Post Number: 22540
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Friday, Mar 13, 2009 - 10:40 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

With a horse with tendonitis if the overall amount of limping is not worsening (frequency and severity) I would continue walking. I cannot tell if loading the leg to trim would harm or not. You can do little short experiments and slowly building up to the trim it would take to trim the opposite foot.
DrO
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Vicki Zaneis
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Username: vickiann

Post Number: 989
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Friday, Mar 13, 2009 - 4:57 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Good news, Diane!

I think that you are wise to make angle changes slowly when taking the heels down so she does not get sore.
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3774
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Saturday, Mar 14, 2009 - 7:35 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks, she seems to have good days and not so good days, but the good days are starting to out number the bad. She really looks forward to our walks. Today I am going to try to harrow the Dry lot smooth so she can be out a little during the day. I will put her SMB's on when she is out, I think that is a good idea??

The farrier is coming Thurs., I hope she handles it OK.
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3776
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Saturday, Mar 14, 2009 - 9:18 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I took a couple video's this afternoon when Flash got out of jail for awhile. She went over and rolled immediately. You can see in this video considering everything she got up well, but the Rt. rear bothered her when she did. This seems a little worse since her fall, but she always has walked off a bit like that after laying down or rolling, confinement seems to be making it worse. This is what I think is shivers, and the reason we can't trim her hinds. Got her lungs cleaned out too...Poor girl.

http://s158.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid158.photobucket.com/albums /t90/scooter_098/024.flv&fs=1&os=1&ap=1

She walks out of it nicely tho, here she is after her roll, she seems to be walking nicely (for her) notice when she itches herself she is weighting that LF quite comfortably.

http://s158.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid158.photobucket.com/albums /t90/scooter_098/028.flv&fs=1&os=1&ap=1

I guess she looks pretty good
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leslie645
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Username: leslie1

Post Number: 655
Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Saturday, Mar 14, 2009 - 10:10 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi D
she seems to be doing very well in the bottom video. Especially since its only been a month since the injury.
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Lilo
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Username: lilo

Post Number: 1061
Registered: 4-2000
Posted on Sunday, Mar 15, 2009 - 11:05 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Does Flash know she is a movie star? I agree with Leslie - she seems to be moving quite well.

Keeping my fingers crossed for her continued improvement.

Lilo
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3chip
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Username: 3chip

Post Number: 20
Registered: 1-2009
Posted on Sunday, Mar 15, 2009 - 12:35 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I have not used Photobucket before though I have now registered with the site. What do I need to do to view your video's?
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3778
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Sunday, Mar 15, 2009 - 1:08 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi 3chip you shouldn't have to register to photobucket. If you tried to view the link from the inbox of your e-mail they won't work for some reason....but if you click the links in my post they should come right up....I think They do for me anyway.
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3chip
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Username: 3chip

Post Number: 21
Registered: 1-2009
Posted on Sunday, Mar 15, 2009 - 5:46 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

In the video your horse looks just fine to me. Moving well and not hesitating to reach back for a scratch or two.
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Jo Ann Widner
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Username: jowidner

Post Number: 385
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Sunday, Mar 15, 2009 - 8:43 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane, I'm not sure how well she moved before her injury so its hard to judge, but she looks very content. I'd say thumbs up on quality of life - eye's are bright, happy expression, able to get up and down, nice coat, and happily scarfing up hay. Considering her age, the fact that the weather is still cold and damp, and that she's only a month out from a nasty fall, I'd say she's doing pretty well. Is she on any bute at this point?
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3781
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Monday, Mar 16, 2009 - 6:11 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks She looks about normal for her in the 2nd video. She is moving pretty well now, hasn't had any bute since thurs. or Fri..

Standing still she parks the left front in front of her and doesn't look completely comfortable. She gets to go out in the dry pen for a couple hrs. a day, she really wants out with the geldings. I would let Hank in with her for awhile so they could itch each other, but those geldings have spring fever and are a little crazy right now. I don't think she'll be going out with them until it's hot and their energy dissipates
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3783
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 17, 2009 - 6:53 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dr.O. I am having the bute or not to bute dilemma.

Flash is over 30 days post injury. Whenever I take her off of bute she does seem a little worse. I read the tendonitis article again and other than for immediately following and shortly after if doesn't give recommendations.

She definitely seems more comfortable on 1.5 grams every other day, and she doesn't get diarrhea at that dose either.

My dilemma is when the farrier comes Thurs. would it be better to have her bute free, so we know if she can tolerate loading that leg for trimming. From my experiments with her, when on bute she willingly picks up the Rt. leg, off bute she doesn't. I don't pick it up long, just enough to do a very quick cleaning....5 seconds if that. Is it possible to damage that tendon more by loading it for trimming while on bute at this stage of the game? I do plan on putting her SMB boots on.

Thanks
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Diane E.
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 3784
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 17, 2009 - 9:41 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Well not so good news today, when I went out to feed I checked for swelling and heat as I do morning and night. Last night the tendon seemed cool with a little swelling as it has been.

This morning the swelling is back and the first time I have felt any heat...It's pretty warm. She wasn't out yesterday, I didn't even have the time to hand walk her so she was just in the stall/small paddock area...perfect footing. I did bute her last night. I stopped by the vets to discuss this and he said we should US it to see what we're dealing with. I said I didn't think you had an US but he said they did. So we are going to US it this week and see how bad it is...I'm almost scared to.
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Ann
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Username: dres

Post Number: 2222
Registered: 10-2000
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 17, 2009 - 10:34 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane do you put a standing wrap on her ever? This will help with the swelling.. It will be good to see what IS going on inside that leg..

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Vicki Zaneis
Member
Username: vickiann

Post Number: 992
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 17, 2009 - 11:04 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane,

Will your farrier work with you to not make the horse have to load the leg for too long by taking frequent breaks?

If so, I would probably be inclined to give the Bute before the farrier appointment, but Dr. O can give the best advice on this.

I hope that you get some good news this week.
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Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter

Post Number: 3794
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 17, 2009 - 9:46 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Yes the farrier would let her rest, but now I'm not sure if trimming her is a good idea with the latest development. I gave her more bute today and cold hosed her leg for quite awhile today...tho according to the article that doesn't do much good, but she seemed to enjoy it none the less.

The weird thing with this increase in swelling and heat she is still moving pretty well. I didn't walk her today except to the hydrant and back. She looks good walking around her small paddock area also...no limp. She does look somewhat uncomfortable just standing. She is back to not wanting to put weight down on the heel all the time again...I don't know.
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Jo Ann Widner
Member
Username: jowidner

Post Number: 390
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 17, 2009 - 10:30 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Diane. Sorry to hear of the setback. I don't have any advice to give, just a dose of that good old Horseadvice moral support .

I know that in humans tendonitis can be very stubborn and slow to heal, and a return of heat and swelling can occur if too much is asked of the tendon before its ready. Perhaps she played around or got up and down a lot during the night.

Anyway, the US should give you a better idea of what kind of shape that tendon is in. Hoping for the best.
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Susie in AZ
New Member
Username: sodmonst

Post Number: 5
Registered: 12-2008
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 18, 2009 - 1:15 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

What a cute little ol' mare. To me, she didn't look miserable even on the earliest video. She's older, and it takes time to heal when you are older. When the weather is cold, the bones, muscles and tendons get creaky. Her fall as you described it was horrifying. She's up, around, and obviously taking nourishment! Kudos to you for hanging in there with her.
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Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter

Post Number: 3796
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 18, 2009 - 7:39 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks Susie she is cute even with that sway back. She never has looked horrible except immediately after the fall, definitly very uncomfortable at times tho. She will be 29 this year and I'm sure the healing slow and since I have NO idea what I'm doing, I'm afraid of hurting her more which would NOT be good! I'm going to see if the vet can come out this afternoon and ultrasound her, that may help me make the decision about the farrier Thurs.

Her appetite is good as usual I'm trying to get some weight off the little porker Tho she isn't quite as fat as she looks she still has lots of winter hair and I can feel ribs under there...covered by a slight layer of fat so not too bad
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Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter

Post Number: 3797
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 18, 2009 - 7:46 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Ann, No I haven't been wrapping her legs, because I don't know how to do it right and don't want to experiment with her...now if it was her hoof that would be another thing...very good at that!

I was putting her SMB boots on for a couple hours a day, but quit once the swelling went down, and don't know if that would be a bad idea now that there is heat???? I wish I had SOME idea of what I was doing, been trying to follow the articles rehab, but other than that I'm lost
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro

Post Number: 22573
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 18, 2009 - 8:37 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane, most things are "possible". A long toe is also stressful to the tendon however. What does the veterinarian who examined the horse think about the stress of trimming?
DrO
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Ann
Member
Username: dres

Post Number: 2226
Registered: 10-2000
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 18, 2009 - 10:07 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane, buy the pillow wraps, don't think you can do a bad job with them.. there is the white layer of thick cloth that is wrapped around the leg first , then you use the 'roll' over that with Velcro to keep it in place .. wrap from front to back and tight enough that you can slip a finger in thru the top.. * I unfortunately have become an expert, need help replacing splints , right up my alley now.. :-(
We made sure Danni's hoofs were trimmed and put her orthotic shoes on to support the healing.. so I figure if she has long toe.. you should have it off ..

Time will heal her ..

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose

Post Number: 4633
Registered: 1-2000
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 18, 2009 - 11:25 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Diane, sorry your old girl isn't up to par yet. These old horses do seem to take longer to recover from an injury than younger horses; like old humans I guess. I'll be interested to see what shows up in the US. Hopefully, nothing too severe. My old girl still shows stiffness in her hind leg that she injured well over a year ago, although she warms up out of it. I don't see anything wrong with giving her a little bute if it makes her more comfortable and you don't get digestive upsets. It will help to keep inflamation at bay as well as make her feel better. I agree about getting the long toe removed, too. Since your vet is coming out, I'm sure he'll advise you. Even if you are already doing everything you can, it's good to hear confirmation of it from a knowledgable source! Hang in there!
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Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter

Post Number: 3799
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 18, 2009 - 6:08 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Had the vet lined up for this afternoon, but he called and said his little guy was diagnosed with pneumonia and he had to go home.

So he said he would come tomorrow when the farrier was here, maybe between the 3 of us will get her trimming figured out...this morning the tendon wasn't as warm and the heat had disipated a bit, but still rather alarming! If she was walking so well in her little pen, I wouldn't be real hopeful. I'll let you know what the vet says and maybe he can give me a wrapping lesson Thanks
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Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose

Post Number: 4636
Registered: 1-2000
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 18, 2009 - 7:35 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane, don't sound so dispondent and don't even thing about giving up. That's a tough little mare you have; I should know, I think I own her gray "evil twin!" If she wasn't so tough, she wouldn't still be around. She might creak and groan, be stiff and sore, but she will improve. These tendon things take a VERY long time, and seem to come and go. Give her a carrot or horse cookie, and go in an pour yourself a glass of wine. You'll feel better.

Of course, this advice is free and easy to give - 'cause for once it's not my horse!

Wrapping lessons are good at any rate. You never know when knowing the right way to wrap a leg will come in handy. There is a very good, inexpensive little book out that explains what wraps/bandages to use when and how to do them. I can't think of the proper name of the book, but have seen in at State Farm and other catalogues.
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Vicki Zaneis
Member
Username: vickiann

Post Number: 996
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 18, 2009 - 8:07 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

You have already been through so much,Diane.

Hang in there.
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Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter

Post Number: 3802
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Thursday, Mar 19, 2009 - 6:31 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dr.O. the vet didn't really have an opinion about trimming her, he hasn't seen her since their rabies shot though, hopefully he will be able to form an opinion after us. If nothing else I guess we could just trim her bad leg. It's weird since her injury her hoof on the injured leg looks different. It's starting to look almost "clubby" her hooves have always been very nice.

Don't they make some kind of wrap that already has the pillow wrap attached? I swear I saw them somewhere and thought about getting some at the time...but didn't.

I haven't given up on her I just feel really helpless and stupid because I haven't the knowledge to help her and am afraid I may make her worse which would be detrimental I'm pretty sure. Hopefully the vet can make it out today, but I don't have 100% confidence in him either.

Thanks
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Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter

Post Number: 3803
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Thursday, Mar 19, 2009 - 7:18 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Here are the combo wraps, pretty sure I could do these. They would work?
http://boomersbandages.com/bandage.html
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro

Post Number: 22588
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Thursday, Mar 19, 2009 - 8:39 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

What "knowledge" are you looking for Diane? Most of your questions are ones I would not so much call as questing for facts as I would say looking for a judgement. You have to make the judgement based on the facts in front of you and go on. There may be no "certainty" to any course of action you take but to let it paralyze you would be the biggest mistake. Once the vet examines her today you should have more facts to base your judgements on so let us know what he says. The change in the foot's conformation is likely due to the unloading the horse is doing on the leg.
DrO
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Angie J.
Member
Username: ajudson1

Post Number: 2433
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Thursday, Mar 19, 2009 - 8:39 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane,

I am not very good at wrapping legs either. My first attempts were funny, the wraps fell off! They still don't look pretty.

You could find a very good pictorial description of how to wrap, and practice on something else...a nice table leg perhaps? Take your time and think it through, double check your efforts, do, and redo until it becomes easy. (if the table legs turn blue and falls off, you wrapped it too tight!)

What if you had given up on riding after your first attempts? Where would you be now?

Sorry to be on a roll here about trying and not giving up, I've been doing this with our almost 15 year old daughter so much lately, I can't seem to help myself, lol!

Just have faith you are doing all you can, and what will be, will be.

Give some Bute, use the boots as you practice your wrapping, use a good linament when boots are off, and just let time take care of the rest.

My achilles tendon has hurt for 15 years; some days it's not noticeable, other days it hurt like h***. I would imagine it's the same for a horse, if it's her tendon.

BTW, it's NOT a bowed tendon, I think if it was that severe, she wouldn't be using that leg at all.

Hang in thar! It's spring, and everything looks better with each passing day! This will be a distant memory soon.
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Ann
Member
Username: dres

Post Number: 2229
Registered: 10-2000
Posted on Thursday, Mar 19, 2009 - 9:56 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane never used those wraps.. they do look like a standing wrap made quicker.. I wonder if you can get the snuggness you would need?

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose

Post Number: 4643
Registered: 1-2000
Posted on Thursday, Mar 19, 2009 - 11:07 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Wraps aren't that difficult Diane. The two "biggies" are to not put on too tight, and to keep the wrinkles out. If she'll stand still, go ahead and practice on her, if not a person's leg will work. Feel free to use masking tape to hold the under wrap (pillow wrap, cotton batting, etc.) in place before you put on the vet wrap, or whatever.) You don't have to be so coordinated that way. If you use enough cotton or quilting underneath, it's almost impossible to get the wrap too tight. If you can get a finger in the top, you're o.k. Use masking tape or duct tape, around the top of the wrap too if you're not sure of your wrapping skills.

I looked at the Boomer's. They look like a great product; I wonder if they'd get tight enough? There's a wrap that is cushy polo wrap with elastic wrap for the last little bit that's great for a pressure wrap and easy to use. I think it's sold through Dover's and Stateline both. If the Boomer's can be made tight enough, it would be great. Let us know if you wind up using them. I'd be interested in how they worked.
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Shannon
Member
Username: stek

Post Number: 174
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Thursday, Mar 19, 2009 - 11:25 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane, a wrap lesson from your vet is a great idea. My personal favorite for standing bandages or pressure wraps is a cotton quilt wrap topped with a Saratoga bandage. The saratoga wraps are very firm and not overly stretchy so they give nice even pressure, and have thin silicon strips on the inside that keep them from slipping down. They also seem to last forever!

I also always always always add a loose-ish loop of duct tape over the velcro closure of any leg wrap, keeps them from getting pulled of and messed with.

Dr. O you make a great point: certainty is hard to come by, using the facts you can identify and your best judgment is often the best anyone can do.
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3chip
Member
Username: 3chip

Post Number: 23
Registered: 1-2009
Posted on Thursday, Mar 19, 2009 - 1:04 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I would get some "Elasticon" to complete any wrap. It is a bit expensive but you can get a 4" wide roll for around $4.00. It is a stretchable wrap bandage which sticks to itself and because of its stretch properties, will prevent you from wrapping too tightly and reducing circulation. Great stuff!
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rtrotter
Member
Username: rtrotter

Post Number: 187
Registered: 4-2008
Posted on Thursday, Mar 19, 2009 - 1:22 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane,

I finally found the youtube video on wrapping legs. Here is the link
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tips+of+the+trade+bandaging.

If this link doesn't work. Go directly to youtube and do a search on tips of the trade bandaging.

I do mine a bit different choosing to make the wrap support the ankles more, but this is a good way to visualize bandaging a horse.

When I first started with racehorses, oh so many years ago, I was not allowed to bandage. One day the more experienced groom that I apprenticed with sat me down in a stall with a pile of bandages and an older very patient racehorse. He let me practice until he felt I could do it myself ( I must have wrapped, unwrapped, rolled and rerolled those bandages and that poor horses legs 25 times that afternoon)at the end we left the bandages on and everything was fine. All you need is a little practice which I am sure the old mare will let you do( She'd probably like the attention).

Rachelle
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LL
Member
Username: frances

Post Number: 851
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Friday, Mar 20, 2009 - 9:29 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Sara's idea of keeping the underwrap in place with duct tape before bandaging is great! I'm never confident about applying stall bandages (exercise bandages no problem), mostly because I can't seem to keep the padding straight/unwrinkled etc, and it seems to slip round as the bandage goes on.

Thanks Sara!
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