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Discussion on Old mare having trouble eating
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 31, 2009 - 6:46 pm:
My 28 yr. old mare is having difficulty eating. She is the one that I complained about regarding her being picky, and sometimes eating hay, other times her beet pulp and senior feed and not the hay. The vet came out about 10 days ago to give spring shots and check all the horses over. He mentioned that this mare and two others needed to have their teeth floated. I took them in on the 23rd to have this done.
This mare, Beau, wasn't in too bad a shape,no wavy mouth or anything, but did have a couple of sharp points filed off. One tooth way in the back took quite a bit of work. When I brought them home, the other mares were fine, but Beau seemed to be in pain. She kept moving her mouth around and had a fair amount of blood mixed in with saliva coming from her mouth. There were several clots about the size of my fist on her bedding, and spots of blood here and there in her stall.
I called the vet and he said she could have had an ulcer or growth in her mouth that was disturbed. He had a very hard time seeing to the back of her mouth even with the speculum. He advised us to give her some banamine, then to keep her on soft food, and keep an eye on her. He thought she'd be fine.
We have been soaking beet pulp and senior, and she was eating a little of it; actually cleaning up her dish at night until last night. Now she isn't eating at all, although she acts like she wants to eat. I took her out to the growing alfalfa to tempt her and she started DrOoling profusely, would sniff and nose the alfalfa, but wouldn't try to eat it. Her vital signs appear to be normal, her gums look pink, there is no foul odor from her mouth, however it looks to me like her eyelid tissue when pulled down looked possible a little yellowish. Her lower right lip also seemed kind of swollen and firm to me this a.m. She continues to move her mouth around a lot. She has seemed pretty normal and perky all through this, until today. She's more quiet than normal now and doesn't seem quite as bright over all.
I took her back to the vet's, along with her special feed. He is out working on a bunch of cows, but will check her when he gets back late afternoon. Meanwhile, his assistant wanted to keep an eye on her.
When I left her she was pushing food around with her nose, had nibbled on a little alfalfa hay, but not eating. She is drinking normally, urinating and pooping, although not normal amounts of the latter, which I'd guess is to be expected considering the little bit she is eating.
Any ideas as to what her problem could be?
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Member:
hollyw
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 31, 2009 - 7:20 pm:
Oh, Sara. If it's not one thing, it's another, isn't it?
Such a worry when they won't eat, but it's good that she seems to want to eat. I bet he did disturb something in her mouth. Do vets do dental x-rays? Bet she needs a root canal . . . lol . . .
Seriously, I hope the vet is able to get a good look at her with a mirror or with x-rays. Hope he can see the problem and that it will be an easy fix . . . and not expensive, either  (one can always hope).
Take care . . . and have a little goblet of wine to soothe your nerves. ;)
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 31, 2009 - 9:14 pm:
Hi Sara, was Beau hand or power floated? I had a problem with Flash a few years ago. She wouldn't eat for 2-3days after she was power floated. It was the first AND LAST time I used an equine dentist. I guess he had gotten a little too aggressive, she was very sore and would eat nothing. My vet now does the floating he says with hand tools there is more of a chance of lacerating their cheeks or tongues.
But wow clots the size of your fist sounds very unusual! Hope Beau feels better soon.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 31, 2009 - 9:17 pm:
I just thought of something...did you check to make sure the clots were all blood, could she have quidded some hay and spit it out. It would no doubt be covered in blood.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 31, 2009 - 9:40 pm:
Clots were blood, and I'm not sure her floating and sore mouth are the reasons she's not eating.(Remember my posts on another thread about her getting really picky about eating?) I went back over to the vet's late afternoon and just sat with her. Doc did some blood work and there is no sign of infection, but she is anemic. Doc gave her a B12 shot and I think some Banamine. On a quick exam of her mouth, nothing shows up. He did suggest that she might have ulcers, however, which could be possible as she gets anxious about things, and she has been on bute off and on due to her leg injury. He started her on Gastroguard. In the a.m. he will sedate her and give her a through exam of the mouth and throat and see if he can find anything. I left soaked Senior and beet pulp for her, although she hasn't eaten what I put out for her this morning yet. I'm headed over there again to check on her (not that the vet doesn't, but she's my old girl and I worry about her!)
Also, I'm taking a thermos of coffee and a newborn foal blanket over to a lady who's staying all night with a premature foal. He's so cute (a little Paint) that it's hard to leave the place! Sure hope he makes it!
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 31, 2009 - 9:42 pm:
Oh, vet started out with hand tools, then went to a battery operated file on the tooth that had such a sharp point. He checked her for TMJ and soreness around the head today and she seemed o.k. when he put pressure on different places, but she doesn't want to be messed with and tries to avoid being caught in the stall - not like her at all.
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Member:
shirl
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 31, 2009 - 11:50 pm:
Sara,
I'm so sorry you're having to deal with yet another problem. Just want you to know my thoughts and prayers are with you and your "ole girl".
Hugs, Shirl
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 1, 2009 - 12:37 am:
Thanks Shirley. I know you've had your problems with your girl, too.
I had a hard time leaving the vet's. The first time I shut the stall door, Beau called for me so I went back and sat with her a little more. Geesh, it's like having someone at the hospital. She wants the company of someone she knows.
She ate a few mouthfulls of mushy beet pulp and senior, but that is all. The lady with the foal said she'd visit her from time to time since she'll be there all night. I'll go over in the a.m. when Doc checks her mouth and throat.
Can a horse get out "of the habit" of eating if they don't eat much for a week?
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Member:
hollyw
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 1, 2009 - 12:53 am:
Hard to leave here there, Sara, I know.
Yes, I think that one can get "out of the habit" of eating, especially when old age is involved . . . and other things could be shutting down in her system, too.
It's nature's way, I think . . . When one's body gets too old to regenerate the worn out parts, I think that a kind of starvation sets in.
Wait to see what the vet says in the a.m. It's nice that you have that other woman there to keep an eye on your Beau.
Sleep well, Sara.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 1, 2009 - 1:04 am:
Holly, she's been so active until this started. I take her for walks down the road and am worn out from trying to hold onto her by the time I get back; she jigs and dances like a 2 yr. old. No one can believe her age when I tell them.
Dr.O - when she does the "mouthy thing" she stretches out her neck and moves her mouth like I've seen a horse with choke does, and makes lots of saliva, but there is no drainage from her nose as I assume there would be if she had choke. But, would it be possible for something to be lodged in her throat or esophogus?
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 1, 2009 - 7:12 am:
I wish I had answers for you, Sara. I hope that the vet finds whatever is bothering Beau and she starts feeling better - and eating - soon.
Keeping my fingers crossed for her~
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 1, 2009 - 9:11 am:
Sara, you know the answer to "is it possible?" is almost always "yes, it is possible". But this would be an unusual presentation for such a event since she continues to drink with no difficulty.
The "mouthy thing" suggests to me she is sore either in the mouth or skull including the tm joint. But I don't know why. I would try and trace where the blood is coming from as a start. Are you continuing the use of a NSAID?
DrO
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Member:
jjrichar
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 1, 2009 - 9:25 am:
Sara, have you had her 'scoped'? I've seen a horse with a 'choke' do a lot of the above... only it went on for months before the owner did something about it. Maybe during the floating, something got knocked loose and it got lodged in her throat during a rinse or something.
I too, would be curious if she improves on Bute, You would think she would improve significantly on pain killers/NSAIDs if it is a pain problem related to her jaw or teeth.
Whatever you do don't give up. So sorry you are going through this. *hugs n prayers*
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Member:
jjrichar
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 1, 2009 - 9:30 am:
Just read the part about the Gastrogard and ulcers. If she has ulcers Bute is the last thing she should get, as I am sure your vet told you. Banamine can also lead to ulcers. So it makes it hard to treat the pain for sure.
I would get her scoped. If your vet doesn't have one, take her to a vet hospital that does. Just ask about costs though as it can get pricey. Probably no worse that several doses of Gastrogard though. ;-)
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 1, 2009 - 9:35 am:
Hi Sara,
I am following this, nothing to offer except prayers and a (((hug))). I was hoping DrO had a clear cut suggestion for you this morning.
Hang in there.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 1, 2009 - 10:47 am:
She ate her pan of beet pulp and senior feed last night, but nothing else. Vet has two surgeries this a.m. then he'll sedate and look at her mouth throughly. I asked about a scope,but his assistant said the one they have is old and not very good and she didn't seem to think it would be very helpful. I'll see what the vet finds this morning. If he doesn't find anything in her mouth, then I'm going to see if the vet in Las Vegas has a scope. Worse case scenerio, I'll trailer her down to Alamo Pintado as they have every diagnostic tool imaginable. She's in good enough shape to make the trip now; if I wait another week chances are she won't be. It will depend on what we find out this a.m.
The preemie foal made it through the night, btw. (He and his dam are her neighbor's at the vet's barn.)
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 1, 2009 - 11:54 am:
Hi Sara,
My very best wishes that Beau will recover soon. I know you will do everything in your power to get to the bottom of this.
All the best to you and your special mare,
Lilo
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Member:
3chip
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 1, 2009 - 12:12 pm:
Sara it has only been two days since her teeth have been floated, right? And from your posts it seems that the mare is in good flesh and looks healthy, right? The onset of ulcers can be quick but USUALLY occurs over a period of time, perhaps several weeks. There are two products, Gastrogard and Ulcergard used to deal with ulcers. Gastrogard is expensive at $35.00 per dose while Ulcergard runs about $8.00 per dose. The only difference in these two treatment agents is Gastrogard is twice the strength as Ulcergard. You can save some money here if in fact you are going to treat the mare for ulcers. There are other products such as Neighlock which which is a sort of Tum for horses and helps somewhat. From what you have described I don't believe your mare has ulcers. But.........perhaps she just up and had a problem with ulcers right after the vet floated her teeth. Possible but unlikely. I don't like to have teeth floated, unless, and its a big unless, the horse is demonstrating serious mouth problems. And a condition like that is going to be obvious. As I understand it, this mare was not under stress prior to the vet visit. She had been eating without a problem hadn't she? The use of Bute in a horse that eats hay daily will generally not cause ulcers. Hay to the horse is like an ongoing Tum usage for humans. But if you throw in a lot of stress, look out! That doesn't seem to be the case with your mare. I personally believe something happened with the vet visit and floating. Whatever it was it will probably subside within several days. If she was my mare and she was in pain I would give her 1 gram of Bute morning and evening for two or three days and see how she react's. If you are really suspicious of ulcers, get a few tubes of Ulcergard to give along with the Bute. Just my opinion!
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 1, 2009 - 12:16 pm:
Sara,
It seems you and others have asked all of the pertinent questions.
I am happy to hear that Beau was able to eat her pan of feed.
Good luck finding the answers and with getting her back to eating more normally again.
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Member:
jjrichar
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 1, 2009 - 12:57 pm:
The fact that she ate her feed is a good sign! Yaaay!  Maybe the Gastrogard did help her??? Or maybe her jaw/teeth are feeling better??? hmmmm I guess time will tell.
Just as a note: I have had experience with 3 different horses having ulcers over the years. The most recent was my gelding that we raised. He is calm, quiet, and doesn't excite easily. He was being fed quality hay and feed, was not in training (hadn't even been broken yet at the time), no changes in the barn or pasture life, in other words... no reason for an ulcer. He just started acting 'hang doggy' and sick one day... not colic-y, just went off his feed a little and then we later noticed him grinding his teeth. I checked his temp and he had a fever. After an exam by the vet and some blood work we couldn't find anything wrong. I was lucky in the fact that the equine vets and hospital I use, just finished a study for Gastrogard and ulcers and were up to date on the latest. So my vet recommended the scope and suspected an ulcer. We scoped him and sure enough there were the ulcers plain as day. BAD ones too. I actually have a DVD of the scope that I will try and post on this site somehow. Anyway, he was on a regimen of Gastrogard for a few weeks and then dosed back on a maintenance schedule for a month. (since this was pre-ulcergard this was very expensive). I now feed him "U-gard Pellets" as a preventative, that I order from Valley Vet. I, to this day, have to be VERY careful with this horse and keep him on a strict diet of quality pellets and fine stemmed hay.
Anyhow, my point (yes I have one somewhere LOL) is that even a horse with no apparent reason can have an ulcer pop up. Not sure if this is the case w your mare since you may have issues with her teeth, etc. but I felt it was worth mentioning in case it may help. 
Hopefully her eating last night is a sign she is on the road to recovery. Please keep us posted.
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Member:
jjrichar
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 1, 2009 - 1:05 pm:
Oh I almost forgot.... Dr. O's article here on Gastric Ulcers is very informative if anyone wants to learn more. The numbers found in the studies should be enough to make any horse owner want to know more about them. If you have been a horse owner for any length of time, especially of perfomance/race horses, I would bet you have owned a horse with an ulcer and just didn't know it. ;-)
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 1, 2009 - 1:48 pm:
3chip, no, it's been a little over a week. She had her teeth done on Monday the 23rd.
I have read the article on Gastric Ulcers and it is informative. I read it originally when we had Maarissa on pain meds off and on, and again with Libby who still gets a little bute now and then, and again last night. If I could just remember everything I read I wouldn't have to re-read things so many times!
Vet had two emergencies this a.m. so is running behind. I came back home and his office will call when they are ready to look at Beaulima. She seems bright eyed but anxious and was trying to open the door and leave. She reminded me of my dad trying to get out of bed and leave when he was hospitalized. Do horses get Alzheimer's?
Thanks for the good wishes and suggestions. All thoughts are welcome!
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 1, 2009 - 10:29 pm:
O.K. Beaulima has a lesion way in the back of her mouth on the right side. When the vet scraped it for a culture, he said there was a bad smell from it. (I wasn't present when he examined her as my elderly father is sick and I was with him.) He thought he probably irritated the lesion when he floated her teeth and caused it to break open. It is draining into he saliva and the taste might be bothering her. We'll have the culture results maybe by end of the week or first of next week at the latest. He said it could be anything from a cyst caused by an imbeded sticker to a cancer. He couldn't tell just by what he could see.
Vet also said there didn't seem to be anything else wrong with her tongue, teeth, jaws, or joints. He thought she should be able to eat even with the lesion.
He also said she might be one of the minority of horses that don't do good on Pergolide. A possible side effect of it is lack of appetite and anorexia. He suggested I wean her off of it and see how she does. Her blood work showed her anemic, so he gave me a supplement to add to her feed; he also said the extra B vitamins should help with her appetite. And, he thought we should keep her on the Gastroguard for five more days since we had started it on her yesterday.
The bit about the Pergolide hit a chord as her appetite has changed since she's been on it, and she has been progressively getting worse about eating - a big switch from a mare known far and wide as "Miss Piggy!"
I brought her home mid-afternoon, and she seemed happy to be home; immediately went out and fussed at the other horses, then rolled in the sand. I fed her a little grass and a little alfalfa hay, some alfalfa - timothy pellets soaked, and some senior with her supplements. When I checked her this evening she was napping, but had eaten some of the hay and all of the senior and not touched the pellets.
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Member:
mitch316
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 2, 2009 - 12:03 am:
Sara, I have heard the same thing about pergolide, but have never seen it personally. Seems like a good sign that she is happy to be home and is eating a little more. However, I have never seen a horse turn down alfalfa pellets. maybe even soaked they are too hard for her due to her age? Seems something like that if she is eating the hay and not the pellets. I have heard of a calcium build-up in older horses due to alfalfa that causes problems, but not like yours. I am Praying that the lesion is yeast or some other treatable condition and that she is on the road to a beautiful spring!
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Member:
jjrichar
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 2, 2009 - 9:16 am:
So glad to hear she is back home and eating, even though its not everything yet. She may not be eating the pellets because they were soaked? My horses really won't touch anything that has been soaked, especially if they have an alternative to eat. Just a thought...
Maybe I missed it somewhere so I apologize if this is duplicate, but why is she on Pergolide? I agree w your vet, even a lesion in the back of her mouth would probably not stop her from eating. I would think it's probably leaning more towards an ulcer or a side affect of the pergolide or both.
Glad to hear good news this morning all in all though.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 2, 2009 - 9:26 am:
Sara, what symptoms of Cushings were you treating and what dose were you using? How long had she been on it and had you recently upped the dosage? Be sure to reduce the pergolide slowly.
DrO
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 2, 2009 - 9:47 am:
Hi Sara,
I wonder if it might be cleaner diagnostically to let the lesion heal before discontinuing the pergolide? That might give you a somewhat clearer view of what caused the acute problem. Picky eaters are a pain to manage, but easier than some of the side effects of untreated Cushings (laminitis). I know you are just sick with worry over your old girl, but her follow-up management will be easier if you have an idea of what helped and what did not. I hope she's feeling better this morning.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 2, 2009 - 10:36 am:
She grew a very long coat which was very slow to shed out, fat across the back and a cresty neck. She has never had any problems with her feet. She was getting 1mg I think; I'll have to go out and look at the syringe - it's the very tiny thin one with 1 being the most it will hold. I am wondering this morning if she's been getting too much of the Pergolide. It seems to me that when we started her on it she was getting .5mg. Since I'm often not home I'm wondering if the girls that feed for me just filled the syringe to the top and started giving her that. She is about 850# horse, so if she's getting 1mg that would be a pretty big dose I think. It seems like the Pergolide has helped her; she no longer grows such a heavy coat and the crest on her neck is gone. We are backing her off the Pergolide very slowly.
I've thought too that it would be cleaner diagnostically to do one thing at a time, but I am desperate to get her eating as she had gotten to the point she was pretty much not eating at all, with only one small, tight pile of manure per day. This morning she still hadn't eaten the pellets, but had eaten a little more of her hay. She dove into her senior when I put it out this a.m., so we'll see how she does with the rest of her breakfast.
The Chaff-Hay I bought, called Pasture in a Bag, was a big bust; she can barely stand to sniff it.
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Member:
kshayden
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 2, 2009 - 11:05 am:
Is her name Rosie? We have a match. Rosie is a rescue - probably about the same age, picky eater, almost always refuses grain, we hand feed her to try and at least get supplements in her as well as her pergolide. Hollywood suggested Ultium and Rosie loves it. She actually looks forward to eating now. We too backed off the pergolide this spring due to a new shipment (we feed capsule) and it caused her to shed too quickly. Good luck with your girl. I hope she bounces back. Kathy
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 2, 2009 - 11:44 am:
Her full name is Beaulimazar (!) I'm not responsible for her name! I've had her for 26 yrs. and my parents had her before that. They gave her to me to replace a loved gelding I had who they thought was getting too old to ride. I had him another ten yrs or so and rode him for most of that time, but loved having Beau. She's been my most trusted riding partner; we've ridden many, many miles in all kinds of conditions. She's also been a great broodmare. She's never been picky until just recently.
I didn't know Pergolide came in a capsule. I guess I should have said "ml" in my previous post, not "mg" since we give a liquid.
We don't have Ultium available in our area. My sister-in-law feeds it in S. Calif. It's really helped her horse I think.
Thanks for the good wishes. She's feeling good enough to boss around the other mares this a.m., so things are looking up. Hope she continues to improve.
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 2, 2009 - 12:09 pm:
Sara our personal emails are bouncing back now after my video i sent you.. ??
Am getting MAILER-DAEMON@smtp06-02.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net <mailer-daemon@smtp06-02.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net> being sent back to me..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
hollyw
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 2, 2009 - 12:41 pm:
Ann, I never thought of posting that here. I have tried 3x this morning to get an e-mail to Sara and it kept bouncing back. I finally sent it to Jos to see if she could forward it thinking maybe it was my server. Hope the issue gets resolved.
Thanks!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 2, 2009 - 3:48 pm:
Sara,
My emails are bouncing too, getting a notice that your inbox is full.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 2, 2009 - 6:32 pm:
We don't typically recommend Pergolide for long hair coats and abnormal fat disposition Sara so coming off it slowly should be fine. For more see the article on Equine Cushings.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 2, 2009 - 7:18 pm:
Sara, Sam my arab gelding hasn't shed his coat in 6 years. He sheds the long 6inch yak hairs but retains the rest. He looks horrible right now! He also has the weird fat deposits. I asked my vet about putting him on pergolide and he said since he's healthy and feisty otherwise why bother...just shave him and watch his diet carefully. He's had no problems otherwise.
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Member:
jjrichar
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 2, 2009 - 10:20 pm:
I had a mare that was having trouble shedding one year, even after de-worming, etc. My vet at the time put her on Thyro-L (or something like that - I can't remember the exact name) and she shed out and was fine. I think they can sometimes have trouble shedding because of thyroid problems - not necessarily cushings. Just a thought...
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Apr 3, 2009 - 8:15 am:
Jennifer, there are no reported thyroid related shedding problems in adults. However there are hundreds of such reported events with hundreds of different products and it is easy to see why. Horses shed a bit slower than there pasture mates, they are placed on some medication, and then they shed out. They would have shed out anyway, after all almost all horses do. There is no doubt Cushing horses do have this problem but it is related to excessive cortisol or cortisol like activity induced by the pituitary tumor.
DrO
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Member:
jjrichar
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Posted on Friday, Apr 3, 2009 - 9:15 am:
Thanks Dr. O. - good info to know. This particular mare was 'hairy' in the middle of a Florida summer though. I assume it could have been related to cortisol levels and stress, even though she did not have Cushings? She was in the middle of a pretty rigorous show season at the time.
Unfortunately, I did not question the vet about it very much. (Shame on me, I know) I just took his word, fed her the Thyro-L as he directed and she shed out and was fine from then on. I know it could have totally been a fluke, but I was glad to see her shiny coat again.
Sara, How is Beau today?
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, Apr 3, 2009 - 1:42 pm:
Sorry all, evidently my email box at the server wasn't emptying after sending emails to my local ISP. I don't know how the settings got changed, but I think they are o.k. again now.
Beau is eating all of her Senior, unsoaked, and nibbling at her hay off and on. I went out and re-read the back of the feed bag and if she eats 10 lbs. of senior over the course of the day, that should be all the feed she needs for a horse her size, so I think she is almost eating that much. She seems to eat better at night, regardless of whether or not she is inside or outside.
Dr. O., our vet thought she had the signs of "pre-cushings" and that the pergolide would help her. He didn't test as he said the tests weren't very accurate, and said we could just try the pergolide and see if he helped, and it did seem to, although from what you say she would have shed out anyway. We were having to clip her, even if she was blanketed all winter.
No news yet on her culture. I expect it will be Monday before I hear anything. She calls to me whenever I enter the barn, and I've noticed she has no problem at all eating horse cookies! Believe it or not, she was acutally turning them down a few days ago. Knowing this horse, that in itself would indicate she was almost "at death's door!"
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Friday, Apr 3, 2009 - 6:10 pm:
Sara, I am happy to hear that Beau is eating better. Keeping her and you in my thoughts, I know how worried I get when my older mare (23) goes off her feed. Usually she eats her senior, just leaves more hay than usual.
Lilo
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Apr 3, 2009 - 9:57 pm:
Great news about Beau, Sara.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 4, 2009 - 9:16 am:
Sarah, I do not recommend Pergolide for symptoms that can be controlled through other management. The medication is just to expensive and as has been previously noted is prone to side effects.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 4, 2009 - 9:55 am:
Sara glad Beau is improving. Sam is one of the hairiest horses I've seen and I really dread he clipping come spring. If it doesn't get too hot out I can usually wait until June and get away with clipping him once.
Here's a pic of what he looks like..under the long hair that is falling out (he has shed about as much as he's going to) is a "normal" winter coat and that is what I have to clip off.
He does very well otherwise as long as he stays on a fairly restricted diet.
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Member:
jjrichar
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 4, 2009 - 11:24 am:
Sara, I am so glad to hear the good news! So now that she is feeling better, what do you think did it? Do you think it is the absence of the Peroglide or is it the Gastrogard helping her tummy feel better?
I am curious, did your vet mention the anemia being a sign of a bleeding ulcer? My one mare that ended up being treated w Gastrogard had a slight sign of anemia in her bloodwork too. We never scoped her, but after a regimen of Gastrogard and this jug of nasty stuff he called 'Nutrient buffer', she was her old self again within a week.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 4, 2009 - 11:31 am:
Diane, Sam could be Beaulima if he were gray. She looked just like that! Even blanketed she gets a pretty heavy coat, but not nearly so thick as she used to get.
No, he never mentioned bleeding ulcers, just ulcers. He said they often see anemia in older horses and gave me a liquid vitamin with lots of stuff good for the blood to put on her feed. She's already getting the Platinum Performance, which I thought was pretty well balanced.
I'm not sure what is making her feel better. For all I know, it's all the attention she's getting from me now!Scientifically, it would have been better to try one thing and then another, but she wasn't eating at all, which really worried me and the vet, so we "hit her with all the guns." She still isn't eating her hay, either alfalfa or grass, but is now cleaning up her senior.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 4, 2009 - 11:34 am:
Dr.O, I know senior feeds are promoted as being good to feed older horses as a "complete feed." Do you agree that having the entire diet be senior feed is o.k.?
Beau is eating nothing else right now, even though she has hay in front of her all the time, and has been offered soaked beet pulp and also soaked timothy-alfalfa pellets. It is Nutrena's Senior feed that she's getting.
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 4, 2009 - 11:59 am:
Very glad she's bouncing back Sara!
For whatever it's worth, I've maintained horses for years on complete Senior Feed (I use the Purina), and they have done very well. If they can eat hay as well, I think it helps their state of mind. The senior doesn't give them much to do, and I think horses like to spend time chewing. I have one dinky aged pony who likes a pile of hay she can chew and DrOp-- just not enough teeth left to swallow, but she likes her "hay chaser" because she likes to stand around chumbling. Weird to watch, but she's happier that way.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 4, 2009 - 12:10 pm:
Well, she has a pile of mixed hay in front of her, so she can chew it if she wants. Whatever makes her happy at this point!
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 4, 2009 - 12:15 pm:
Dr.O, Here is her blood work. Our vet has a new machine which does the report as kind of a graph as well as the numerical values. I find it kind of confusing, but guess that's just me. I'd be interested in your opinions of her values.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 4, 2009 - 12:16 pm:
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 4, 2009 - 12:17 pm:
Her glucose is high, which he thought could be a result of the pergolide?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 4, 2009 - 5:22 pm:
Sara, I know Beau isn't/wasn't eating much. I'm not sure but I think a meal before a blood test can effect the glucose. I know my vet has commented on the high glucose...Sam has it too. He said fasting for 24 hrs. is better for accuracy...I think.
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Member:
mitch316
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 5, 2009 - 1:20 am:
Diane, you are correct. Horses (and humans, and any other warm blooded animal matter of fact) will have a natural spike in their glucose levels, as well as their insulin, right after eating. I am not sure of the fast time, but 24 hours would definitely be enough. It seems like I remember it being at least 12, but I am not sure. The food raises the glucose (sugar) levels, which triggers insulin to go up as well. It would probably be outside the "normal" range. If you know any diabetics, that is why they are supposed to check their insulin at least 30 minutes before eating, and not check it for at least 3-4 hours after.
As for the feeding, we used to feed our older horses that had lost their teeth something Daddy called "mash". Unfortunately I do not remember what it was, only knew that he cooked it over a fire sometimes. I know it had bran pellets and oats, and it seems like corn meal...they seemed to love it. Some of the old timers around may know what it is, or they seem to around here when brought up in conversation. The high creatine levels are probably just arthritis, as it is an inflammation marker,the main blood work is kinda all over the map, and way too mixed up for me. Sorry for the long post, but I am an ole Pentecostal preacher, so its in the blood, ha. Back to the original thought, the glucose levels are probably not an indicator of anything serious if it was not taken while fasting. I say probably because these old horses seem to be able to throw anything at you and are as unpredictable as Obamas bailout plans.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 5, 2009 - 10:16 am:
Sara, the concepts on elevated blood glucose that your veterinarian (or your understanding of your vet) has is exactly backwards: Cushings induces a insulin resistance which elevates the blood glucose. Pergolide helps reverse this process. Note that the WBC abnormalities are associated with Cushings too. This is all explained in more detail in the Cushings article.
As to the proper testing for glucose in the blood, the article on Cushings gives general recommendations for testing. For critical testing of blood glucose the article on Metabolic SynDrOme gives specific directions.
What is not explained is the elevated BUN, creatinine and possibly associated anemia. These are all consistent with chronic early kidney failure. However your horse does lack some features of kidney failure. Has you veterinarian considered this possibility and checked a urine specific gravity?
Concerning "complete feeds" for older horses, I do not consider them optimal as the roughage is over processed and some horses will chew wood when just on a extruded or steamed and pelleted feed. However I have some older horses with tooth problems so severe it is all they can eat, usually as a mash, and as others have noted above, they do well on it.
DrO
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 5, 2009 - 10:44 am:
Thanks, Dr.O. Vet did mention the possibility of kidney problems; and I know renal failure is common in older animals of all types - inc. humans. He didn't mention a urine test. If such a test did show kidney problems, what could be done about it, other than try and help it through diet?
I had wondered about the glucose levels and the Pergolide; perhaps he remembered wrong or mis-spoke, but he did say the high levels were related to the pergolide. Since she is eating better now (she ate about half of her hay last night!) should I keep her on a low dose of Pergolide? Or, suggest to my vet that he do proper testing for Metabolic SynDrOme and Cushings?
I guess what I'm asking is, should I ask for further testing, and if I do, how much difference will I be able to make? I think our vet always does the minimum as he is very sensitive to people's pocket books. Why he doesn't at least suggest doing more I don't know.
When she went on the Pergolide there was no testing involved. He said he sees a lot of horses that look like she did and they usually turn out to be Metabolic SynDrOme or Cushings and I should try the Pergolide and see if it helps her. If if does, keep her on it; if it doesn't, gradually quit it's use. So, the Pergolide usage was imo basically a test in itself. I have read your articles and others, so am baffled about his attitude, unless he feels it's an old horse, I want to help her, he's unconvinced that anything can help her, but giving me the Pergolide makes me feel like I'm doing what I can for her - it that sentence makes sense to you.
I can take her to Calif or perhaps the vet in Las Vegas if that would actually be of help to her. I should wait and get the lab results on the culture back first though.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 5, 2009 - 11:28 am:
Sara, this is JMHO so take that for what it's worth. If Beau's only problem was slow shedding and a cresty neck, that prompted the pergolide I would be tempted to continue to remove it. Pergolide is a drug and I'm sure it can effect horses in different aspects. That's why I didn't want to start Sam on it at this point...tho it would be really nice not to have to clip him The possibilities of side effects put me off more. I know it helps MANY horses, but Sam's symptoms, sound similar to Beau (as far as cushings) and he is manageable without the pergolide...I do have to watch his diet.
I don't know if it's plausible, or even how long it takes pergolide to clear the system once stopped, but maybe running another blood test once it's cleared her system could give you an idea if it was affecting her results.
Does Beau drink and urinate more than "normal"?
Hope you get it all straightened out, and it is nothing serious!
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 5, 2009 - 11:50 am:
She hovers around the water bucket and trough, but I don't think she drinks more than normally. She swishes out her mouth in her bucket sometimes, and goes outside to drink out of the trough, so it's kind of hard to tell.It seems like all the horses like to hang out around the water troughs. They remind me of people around the office water cooler.
She urinates more than some of my other horses, but has for years - at least it always seems like a lot because she runs into her stall so she can pee right in the middle of it; and she can't wait for clean shavings so she can pee in them!
Previous to this episode I've really been watching her diet and had her on grass hay, beet pulp, and a little senior with rice bran and a vitamin-mineral complex with joint addatives.
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Monday, Apr 6, 2009 - 8:47 am:
Ok Sara-- got to tell an Equine Senior story. Many years ago, some prospective boarders came to me with a rehab project-- an emaciated 34yo mare named Bucky (yes, the name becomes important). They had her on free choice everything at her boarding situation, but she was clearly starving. When I pried her mouth open, I saw two remaining teeth, non-opposing. No problem, right? I started her on Equine Senior slop (poor thing couldn't chew wood), and sat back to watch the miracle. Several months later-- new horse. She was shiny and healthy and looked absolutely fit.
One day the owners show up with their tack-- very exciting, since they never thought they could ride her again. They rig her all up-- probably a 60lb saddle, martingale, big old curb etc.. Bucky stood like a stone. The one owner climbs on and clucks to her mare. Bucky looks around carefully-- I do swear she drew a tiny X target on the sand-- gives an old mare yodel and launches her owner hard straight onto the ground. Looked like that old mare had been waiting probably 15 years to feel good enough to live up to her name again.
They were all-- what ARE you feeding her now and can you stop? Equine Senior can't fix the horse, but it can sometimes give you the same horse back, I guess.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Apr 6, 2009 - 9:57 am:
Hello Sarah,
A simple measure of the urine specific gravity can tell you if the kidneys are failing. For more on this see Diseases of Horses » Urinary System » Chronic Renal Failure.
Concerning testing and treatment decisions you should review the articles on those conditions and then I think you with the help of your veterinarian will be able to make a better decision than I can. Note that pergolide is not likely to be effective for metabolic synDrOme however: it works at the level of the pituitary gland which is not involved in MS.
DrO
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Monday, Apr 6, 2009 - 11:41 am:
Beau's culture came back showing several different types of bacteria, but nothing indicating her abcess/cyst is cancerous - so good news. We are starting her on antibiotic tabs today.
Dr.O., I'll review the suggested articles sometime today. Thanks.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Apr 6, 2009 - 6:06 pm:
Great Sara, hope she improves...is she still eating better?
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Monday, Apr 6, 2009 - 8:31 pm:
Went to the vet's and picked up the antibiotics. Huge pills, SMPTMZ (?) (I get those letters mixed up.) Anyway, she's to get 15 2x/day for 5 days. THAT should be fun!
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 7, 2009 - 7:17 am:
Sara,
You may want to go the applesauce route with this, just dissolve the pills in warm water and mix with the apple sauce.
The only problem I have with doing this orally is if she is having a problem eating, she may back off her food again which is what you do not want her to do at this time.
Was there anything injectable that the vet could give you instead. Also, watch out for diarhea and stop right away if it does happen.
Rachelle
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 7, 2009 - 7:57 am:
That's what I do with the Flashes bute, she won't eat it in her food anymore. I dissolve the pills in as little water as possible, mix in a little applesauce, put in syringe and squirt. Then she gets a carrot for a chaser....She actually looks forward to her bute now . I don't even have to put a halter on her.
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Member:
hollyw
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 7, 2009 - 8:29 am:
Just read all the new posts on this and am happy that Beau is on the road to recovery.
SMZ's dissolve very well in a little bit of water (unlike Bute) and my horses don't seem to mind them dissolved and mixed with pellets or just dissolve in a big syringe and squirted in their mouths like wormer paste. I keep a big plastic syringe with the point cut off just for that purpose.
Hope you are able to relax a bit as you let the antibiotics do the worry work for you so you can relax a bit.
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 7, 2009 - 2:55 pm:
Mixed with honey [or on bread with a LOT of honey but perhaps not with a sore mouth] mine usually stayed loving to me.
Glad Beau seems to feel better
Jos
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 8, 2009 - 11:09 am:
I do like Holly and melt them in hot water, glop it all into a large syringe and dose her, then I follow with a cookie. I don't have to halter her for much of anything unless I'm taking her somewhere. She's the only horse I have that actually minds me (most of the time!) She is nibbling hay, but turning down the grass hay, which is what she should be eating for weight controll. Right now I guess it doesn't matter. She's also eating her senior and supplements.
btw...the little preemie foal has made it and seems to be doing really good.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 8, 2009 - 6:01 pm:
Glad to hear that things are going quite well in both cases, Sara.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 8, 2009 - 9:39 pm:
Me too!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 8, 2009 - 10:03 pm:
you should never had said that. I'm glad things are going better too! We'll have to get together and take the old hags ( I mean princesses) LOL for a walk...they'd probably put us to shame!
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 8, 2009 - 11:00 pm:
Yeah,if your mare is like mine, she can certainly out walk me!! They would be quite the pair together. Wonder who would wind up boss? Before our other old mare died, Beau and the other mare would seem to take turns being boss; one day Beau would be, and next day the other one would be telling everyone what to do while Beau ignored everyone. It was pretty funny to watch!
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