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Discussion on Sensitive soles and SoleGuard
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Member:
mleeb
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 2, 2009 - 9:20 pm:
Hi
I have a QH mare, 15 years old. She's 15.1 hh, good solid bone, not overweight, with good sized feet that are well balanced and proportional to her size. The hoof wall is excellent, and the sole looks great too, but she displays tender soles on everything but grass. She improves about a week before it's time to trim her again. I finally had her shod on the fronts late last summer, and she was instantly improved.
So, in the interest of not having to put shoes on her (the farrier is not always as prompt as he should be), I'd like to toughen her up. Is there a product other than formalin that I can use on her soles to help her out? Alternatively, I've been wondering about trying something like SoleGuard to give her a "pour-on pad" without shoes, but I am concerned that although it might help while it's on, it won't provide any actual improvement to sole condition overall.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Apr 3, 2009 - 8:26 am:
Michelle have you considered letting the foot grow longer, what is the length of the toe before and after trimming?
DrO
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Member:
mleeb
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Posted on Friday, Apr 3, 2009 - 7:42 pm:
Hmm, never having actually "measured" the growth I can only give you a guess-timate and say it's always 1 1/2" or better. Her feet grow quite well and very evenly, and she's trimmed every 8-10 weeks. That length of time between trims is sufficient for her to develop flares and start breaking hoof off in the quarters (winter is the exception to that). When she was trimmed last week, we left a good 1" of hoof wall to give some protection, but she's still tiptoeing across the gravel by the barn.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Friday, Apr 3, 2009 - 8:28 pm:
Michelle,
Any reason why you go so long in between trimmings. It seems to me that what is happening is she is getting footsore because after ten weeks of hoof growth and then trimming, everything from her hoof to the bony column in her legs have to shift around again to accommodate her shorter toes and angles.
If you went to trimming every 5-6 weeks the changes would not be so drastic and she would not get as sore.
Also, it's not the growth that was taken off that Dr. O is asking for. Its the toe length. You can measure that with a tape measure. Measure from the bottom of the coronary band to the end of the toe.
If, your farrier took off 1 1/2 inches that is a lot of toe, no wonder she's sore. If you took off less toe and trimmed more often, it might solve the problem.
It also sounds like she does not have much concavity to her sole, if you think she is sole sore.
Do you have any pictures of her feet you could share? and does your farrier mustang roll or bevel her toes when he trims, so she lands on her inside wall and breaks over properly?
Rachelle
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Apr 3, 2009 - 9:22 pm:
I'm with Rachelle on this, waaay too long between trimmings. I have an Arab mare who grows very even and has very hard hoofs. On the rare occasion that I went that long between trimmings, (before I started trimming myself and was at the mercy of a farrier) she would be a tad off after being trimmed. Not REAL noticably tender, just a little bit different.
If you have the wall trimmed more often, it is healthy for all the reasons Rachelle lists above and she would toughen up her sole more with it being closer to the ground.
I am anti-shoe myself, although I know there are cases where shoes are needed. But putting a shoe on a long hoof, and letting the hoof get longer is, IMO, setting this horse up for lameness issues because everything is thrown off kilter. Plus shoes are just not good for the health of the hoof! Not for blood flow, joint impaction, etc.
I'd love to see pictures also. From the side, showing shoulder and hip to hoof. And the bottom of the hoof showing bars, wall growth.
Putting something on the sole won't solve problems caused by a farrier who isn't "always as prompt as he should be."
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Apr 3, 2009 - 10:01 pm:
Michelle have you ever had her hooves x-rayed? I have a thin soled horse....per x-ray. I have tried to leave him barefoot, have tried the hoof tougheners (dura sole is a good one) He is trimmed every 6 weeks like clock work...except once this winter. I am able to leave him barefoot in the winter, but when the ground is hard and irregular he will tip toe sometimes. I have quit fighting the thin soled beast and come riding time shoes go on...he is much happier and so am I!
He is barefoot 7 mos. of the year and that works fine for both of us.
I guess my point is maybe if you had her feet x-rayed you would know if you are dealing with thin soles or a poor trim or both. It's a lot easier then guessing and probably cheaper than the sole guard once you buy the application gun ect.
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Member:
mleeb
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Posted on Friday, Apr 3, 2009 - 11:17 pm:
Ok, if you guys want measurements from the coronary band down to the tip of the toe, that's WAY different than what I was thinking. I'm imagining looking at the sole of the foot and measuring the distance between the edge of the sole and the front edge of the hoof wall.
I don't have any measurements to give you, but I could go out and take a few tomorrow. That would only tell you the AFTER, not the before.
Usually we trim her fairly short and let her go barefoot (had her 2 1/2 years now), assuming she will toughen up. This last trim is the first time we've left some extra length to her foot to help give her a little more clearance. She was just slightly tender over the frozen ground before the trim, much more so now.
In the summer we are pretty close to 8 wks between trimming, the stretch to 10 wks is when the farrier is hard to reach (again, why I would prefer to avoid shoes if I can't get him back to pull, trim and re-shoe in an appropriate amount of time).
As for waiting that long, it has just seemed to be the time when the whole herd was due.
I hadn't thought that more frequent trimming would keep her less foot sore, when it's the 6 weeks after a trim that she tip toes, and the last 2 weeks when she doesn't. Her feet keep very nice shape, and it's rarely a big change from before and after when she is done. That's always a concern of mine, too, that none of my horses ever have to have a dramatic change, because there's no way it can't hurt to suddenly have all those angles and weight distribution change.
She DOES have a mustang roll (possibly could be done a little more thoroughly though), she DOES breakover well, her toe IS rolled, she DOES land heel first (as soon as she's off the gravel), and she does have the appropriate proportions of heel, frog, toe etc. Even the farrier says it, her feet look really, really good, and no one would expect that she would be tender.
I've watched HOURS of Gene Ovnicek videos, studied pages and pages of farrier written articles and web pages, and while I'm far from pro, I'd like to think I have the basics of a well balanced foot down pat by now. My farrier has studied the same information, and then some.
If the farrier doesn't get here as soon as he should, I can always take out my rasp and trim her myself, but I don't have the necessary skills to take care of her hooves if she is wearing shoes and needs them reset. Far beyond my skill level! Therefore, barefoot, or nearly so, is still a better situation for us.
I've had her for 2 1/2 years and have only put the shoes on her once, it was a huge and instant improvement. This is Canada, it's darn cold, and I don't ride in the winter, so if shoes were used, it would be for 6 months, maximum.
I haven't had x-rays done, but it just might be a good idea. This is a great horse, does absolutely everything, and I sure would be up the creek without her.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 4, 2009 - 9:26 am:
Think of it this way Michelle more frequent trimming means less has to be removed to maintain a certain hoof mass. If barefoot is your goal you determine the amount of hoof mass that is needed to be sound and then trim to keep the foot at that length and healthy. If that cannot be done shoes are in this horses future.
If the hoof is of good conformation I am uncertain radiographs will be of much benefit. DrO
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 4, 2009 - 9:46 am:
I just typed a longish post here, and it basically said what DrO was typing at the same time! LOL! My computer froze up and I had to restart it and lost what I was doing.
If you understand enough about hoof form and trimming, and it sounds like you do, why not try what DrO says and trim more frequently, and just rasp yourself between farrier visits? It sounds like you have other horses, and I bet your farrier would be glad to oversee your work.
I personally find that tweaking every 3 weeks is easy, healthy, and not time consuming. You could try running the rasp across the bottom, touching up the mustang roll, and make sure the bars are not above the wall of hoof...ta da, done!
Doing more frequent trims she may just surprise you and toughen up her soles, if IF indeed it is just a sole problem. It could be bars too, another discussion in itself.
Good luck, let us know what works.
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Member:
mleeb
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 4, 2009 - 12:14 pm:
Well, I can try to increase the farrier's visits, and doing my own rasping between trips isn't a problem. The hard part is going to be finding that level of hoof mass that provides soundness. I wonder, is letting the hoof grow until she walks sound an option, then maintain that length? Or just trim, rasp, and rasp some more and hope for tougher feet?
Maybe shoes ARE the better option for her. I could spend a whole summer not riding and waiting for soundness to magically descend!
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 4, 2009 - 1:27 pm:
Michelle, are you saying above that the mare grows 1.5 inches of hoof wall in 8-10 weeks? That the distance between the edge of her sole and the end of the toe is 1.5", and you normally take her down to the level of the sole at each trim? If that is the case sounds like this mare is a very fast grower and I would not go with shoes if your farrier tends to be hard to reach.
Have you tried boots for riding on rough ground? Could be a good solution depending on how often you ride, and that way you get the protection you want but can still touch up her feet between trims. If I am misunderstanding her growth rate I'd probably just shoe her for the summer, but be sure to have her reset every 5-6 weeks.
Overall I'm a big fan of barefoot (our horses all are) but there are some horses where it's just a losing battle.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 4, 2009 - 2:03 pm:
Michelle your horse does sound similar to my horse. He has foundered in the past, but even before that he was thin soled and couldn't tolerate barefoot when being ridden on gravel, rocks, or even hard surfaces. He was trimmed by a VERY good "barefoot trimmer" and he even gave up trying to maintain him barefoot. He had very nice hoof form at the time. Like your horse he was tender until right before another trim and the cycle repeated. I was afraid the ongoing inflammation may lead to PO or something else down the line. I'm rather OCD about my horses tho so don't know if something like that could happen or not.
I prefer barefoot too, but the horse was so uncomfortable it made him start not wanting to go forward and he is a very forward horse!
I just though maybe x-rays would show if your horse was thin soled or had any other things going on you weren't aware of.
I will say when I had Hank shod with the wide web shoe and equipak for 2 cycles his soles did get thicker(per x-ray) and barefoot became a lot more tolerable for him afterwards, I don't know why, maybe his sole just needed "a rest" from being tender all the time. Supposedly the equithane "stimulates" the sole.
Good Luck with your horse
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Member:
mleeb
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 4, 2009 - 3:47 pm:
Shannon, I won't swear on a bible that she grows that much, since I've never taken a measuring tape and verified it. Just to eyeball it, I would say 1" minimum, and as much as 1.5" -- depends on how quick the farrier is. Fortunately, her growth is very even all around the foot, and everything is going in the right direction. I wish I could say the same for a gelding of mine...
Diane, Hank DOES sound a lot like this mare. I used natural balance shoes on her last year, and I'm going to go with that again. I called the farrier and asked him to come out - again! - sometime in the next 2 weeks and put shoes on. I guess for now I'll have to go with what I know has worked in the past.
Now, if anyone out there has a magic wand that will make my gelding's feet grow downward instead of forwards...;-)
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 5, 2009 - 9:38 am:
No magic wand, but if you keep backing the toe up vertically, and make sure the bars are trimmed correctly as to not keep pushing the toe forward; you might start to see results. I have a mare with flat feet, underslung heels and have been fighting what your gelding has for the last couple of years. Not sure if I see progress or not, she's sound, so how much can be done once a horse is an adult is a question I am not sure of the answer.
When I first started trimming myself, I did cause my other mare's hooves to grow forwards, and that did get corrected with backing her toe up, and rather quickly. So it may depend on whether or not your gelding has a life time of growing forwards, or if it was caused by improper trimming later on in life?
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Member:
mleeb
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 5, 2009 - 12:52 pm:
Yep, that's what I'm doing. He's always been like this, and he's 6 now. It seems like you need to go out and rasp every 2-3 weeks to stay on top of him. Miss once, and you're playing catch-up again. So frustrating. He's sound as long as he's balanced, but let that foot get away from you just once, and he's off.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 5, 2009 - 3:17 pm:
Hey Michelle,
That gelding of yours, you say he's always been like that? Raised from birth by you, and his feet where like that? Do you know if he was trimmed properly from the first time or not, if you bought him later?
Just curious; the mare I have trouble with is around 6 now also, and she had a rough start in life. A pity purchase really, no handling at all, no trimming obviously before we got her. We are not sure if she was 6 months or a yearling when we brought her home. Like with your guy, I have to keep after her hoofs or the heels seem to take off, and she gets crooked very easily also on the hinds. No lameness, knock on wood, but lots of maintenance it seems.
My other mare, the Arab with the hard hoofs, she does grow like 1 1/4" to 1 1/2" in 8 weeks. When I had a farrier I was always amazed at how much he would take off her! We used to laugh and say now she's not "horse sized" any more, because she's probably only 14.2 before a trim, definately not after a trim, lol!
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Member:
mleeb
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 5, 2009 - 7:35 pm:
I've him since a weanling. I remember asking a million questions from the previous owners, and they kept assuring me that he was young and didn't need his feet done for a long time yet. Can you tell he was the first weanling I ever had? I didn't wait as long as they wanted me to, but I didn't push the footcare the way I should have, either. So, unfortunately for him, I didn't have a clue about hoof care at that time and I kind of think that that really is what started all this. If only I'd taken a rasp and shaped those tiny little feet a few times while they were growing.
Anyway, some years later, very frustrated by the fact that he was clutsy beyond belief and had this on again off again lamness that you couldn't alway see, I got myself educated, started talking to my farrier about the conclusions I was coming to, and voila! Instant improvement.
I guess it just goes to show, the more educated we get as owners, the better off our horses will be. I've learned over the years that my vet and my farrier, both good people, are not going to be responsible for keeping my horses in good shape. That's my job, and I have to remember to use these people as resources and tools to help me do my job.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 5, 2009 - 10:01 pm:
Your last paragraph says it all; getting educated is the best thing we can do for the health of our horses. And this site sure helps with that!
I found this site looking for how to care for malnourished horses when we brought our pity purchase home. I remember reading and then getting angry because it said I had to PAY to keep on reading! SO glad I did decide to pay for membership!
If only we started out knowing what we know now...lol!
If I had been trimming myself 6 years ago, I think my mares hoofs would be different now too. I trusted my farrier 100% back then, didn't know enough to question anything.
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Monday, Apr 6, 2009 - 5:09 pm:
Excellent point .. our biggest job as horse owners is to educate ourselves!
Just wanted to add one tip: we have a gelding with one mildly clubby RF foot, the other LF tends to go long toe/low heel. When he is shod, my farrier will set the shoe back behind the edge of the toe a bit to help with breakover, same idea as bringing back the toe with trimming. Might help for yours?
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Member:
mleeb
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Posted on Monday, Apr 6, 2009 - 9:28 pm:
Yes, we do the exact same thing here, too. It works very well, and I particularly like the natural balance shoes with their wider toe of support.
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