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Kathleen Martin
New Member
Username: kathim
Post Number: 1
Registered: 4-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, Apr 21, 2009 - 8:30 pm: |   |
I am sooo happy to have found this website.
My trail horse - Jekyll - got kicked last week and lacerated his leg just below the hock. The inside portion isn't too bad, but the outside is quite bad. I could not get hold of a vet (for living in the state that claims to be the "Horse Capital" large animal vets are few and far between.
I initially cleaned the wound and dressed it with Fura Septin and bandages. He had the dressings torn off by next morning. I repeated the procedure. Went down to our small town pharmacist/old timey vet and he suggested I leave it open and alternate between Wonderdust and lime, and to just keep applying the dust. At the time, we did not realize he had a torn/ripped tendon sheath. I realized this after reading many posts on this forum.
Here is my problem....Jekyll keeps biting/rubbing the wound and reopening it several times a day. Finally today, I washed it as good as I could and went back to Fura Septin and bandaging. He has left the bandage on all day!
As I said, I cannot get a vet here, so I am asking for advice on how to further treat his leg.
I have uploaded all photos I have, day 1, day 7, & day 8 (didn't have camera available in between) at http://s631.photobucket.com/albums/uu33/kathimartin09/jeks%20leg/
I tried to upload them here, in reduced format, but it kept cancelling them.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions and help. |
Kathleen Martin
New Member
Username: kathim
Post Number: 2
Registered: 4-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, Apr 21, 2009 - 9:04 pm: | |
I forgot to add, I have him stalled in a 12x12 with daily hand walks, 15 min twice a day. |
Jesse Mitchell
Member
Username: mitch316
Post Number: 110
Registered: 2-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, Apr 21, 2009 - 9:35 pm: | |
Kathleen,
What part of KY are you from? I might can refer you to a couple of vets. We are in the same shape here, with no vet within two counties. As far as the wound itself, I would take a cold hose to it and get as much of the gunk out as possible. That old timer vet gave you an old timer solution which I do not agree with...Dr. O may or may not, just my opinion. I would also say that with a torn sheath, he needs to be examined. I am in Southeast KY, Jackson County. The closest Equine Vets are in Beattyville and there is a new young one in Clay County. Both will travel up to 75 miles or so, but only for emergencies, and they do charge mileage, but it is reasonable. If you are reasonably close, I may be able to get out as well.
As for the dressings, there are some really good wraps out there...try www.kvvet.com, and look under first aid. You will find the exact types you need from the recent tendon injuries posted here. But I would give a really good cleaning before wrapping...
How is walk? Limping, or normal? Can he trot or canter? (or does he try to, hopefully you are not letting him) The best way to test his gait is on a lunge. As for the cleaning, a garden hose under normal pressure will help debride as well as swelling and bacteria. There are a lot better antiseptic options than wonderdust and lime. Betadine would be a much better choice in my opinion if you did not have access to equine products. You might want to check at your local farm store, Southern States, or Tractor Supply, which all usually have a decent selection in Kentucky. I am going to download your photos onto a program of mine so I can magnify them more, but Dr. O can probably offer more info than I can right now. But really, let me know where you are in KY, as i have a pretty good network going in the Southeast and Appalachia portions. |
Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 3976
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, Apr 21, 2009 - 9:59 pm: | |
Yikes, That is getting ugly looking. I don't have much experience with wounds like that, but do know that wonder dust can be very caustic, and glad to hear you quit using it. I think Jesse is probably right cold hosing is the way to go until you can get a vet to look at him. If he has torn his tendon sheath infection setting in would not be good. I think I'd be trying to find a vet somehow.
Hopefully Dr.O. can give you some advice. |
leslie645
Member
Username: leslie1
Post Number: 700
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, Apr 21, 2009 - 11:55 pm: | |
Kathlyn
There are some nice equine vets in Danville Ky area as well. If you are in that area. or can haul him. let me know and I will look up the numbers for you.
leslie |
Lee
Member
Username: paul303
Post Number: 1263
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 22, 2009 - 12:51 am: | |
Cold hose the wound and debride it gently with the water, apply antibiotic cream and wrap, to keep the wound protected...until Dr.O can get back to you. There are many wonderful articles on this site concerning treatment of wounds. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 22822
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 22, 2009 - 7:22 am: | |
Welcome Kathleen,
The Wonderdust is a copper sulfate treatment that should not have been used on the fresh wound if ever at all: it created those black areas of dead tissue. When you quit using it the irritation was lessened and that is why the horse get biting at it.
As to recommendations on the wound from this point forward, this requires a veterinary examination to give good advice. In the article associated with this discussion I explain how I take care of large wounds that require second intention healing, as your wound does. You might want to back up two pages and start with the First Aid for wounds to get some background information and then read the Long Term Wound article but I believe you are going to need some professional advice also so get a veterinarian involved. After reading the articles if you have some specific questions you can bring them here.
DrO |
Kathleen Martin
New Member
Username: kathim
Post Number: 3
Registered: 4-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, Apr 28, 2009 - 2:23 pm: | |
Hi again,
I finally found a vet about an hour from me. He wanted to do surgery to remove the lump. There was no way I could afford his bill, so his advice was to do daily cold water washes, keep it covered and treated with fura septin, daily hand walking sessions. Once it started to show signs of healing, I could leave it uncovered and treat it with granulex. I posted more updated pics at
http://s631.photobucket.com/albums/uu33/kathimartin09/?newest=1
The nasty black in the first pics turned out to be buildup of the Wonderdust, not dead tissue, so the healing wasn't set back too much.
He walks nice and strong on it, after about 10 minutes he will drag the toe. He doesn't even offer to attempt a trot, which I wouldn't allow him to even if he tried.
Thanks for the offers of vets, I live in Wayne county and may still contact other vets just for future reference, as the vet I did find is hard to get hold of. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 22870
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, Apr 28, 2009 - 10:04 pm: | |
Where Wonderdust touches Wonderdust kills Kathleen, that is how it eats away granulation tissue by chemically burning it. The black is the burned tissues. I am delighted though that things are looking a bit better. The nitrofurazone is fine if it does not have propylene glycol as a base. If is does we recommend the spray instead.
I have never been a big fan of Granulex in the latter stages of healing, This is a product developed for the treatment of non-healing ulcers and promotes the removal of dead tissue (a good thing in the early stages) but uncertain about its effects on the latter stages of healing. That said I have no specific reason not to recommend it. I am a big fan of the hosing of such wounds as described in the Long Term Wound Care Article and think it is best way to minimize excessive granulation tissue. That said you are going to need some help with the proud flesh with surgical trimming being your best option.
DrO |
Kathleen Martin
New Member
Username: kathim
Post Number: 4
Registered: 4-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, Apr 30, 2009 - 1:44 pm: | |
Thank you for the info on the Wonderdust and its action on wounds. I was just repeating what the vet had told me.
At what stage is Jeks going to need the surgical trimming? Would it be after the wound heals completely? Or does it have to be done as the wound heals?
I've read through the articles, but am having trouble comprehending right now. Between worrying about Jeks and my son being sick, I'm going through my days like a zombie.
I want to do what's best for Jeks, he's my first horse, and my baby. I just could not come up with the amount of $$ the vet wanted upfront, before he would do anything for Jeks.
Thanks. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 22890
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Friday, May 1, 2009 - 9:15 am: | |
Proud flesh keeps a wound from healing Kathleen. I have edited the Long Term Care article to be a bit more specific at what stage it needs to be trimmed. See the Proud Flesh topic and see if this is clearer.
DrO |
Kathleen Martin
New Member
Username: kathim
Post Number: 5
Registered: 4-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, May 2, 2009 - 11:15 am: | |
Yes, thank you. I've also got some sleep, so my comprehension is back to normal. |
Tami
Member
Username: tamarag
Post Number: 98
Registered: 1-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 5, 2009 - 9:46 pm: | |
Hi Kathleen
I felt like I was looking at my horse's wound. If you go one below your thread, you will see what I have dealt with since 1-5-09. Daily bandage change, but I was told to put her down.
I expect to be riding her with in a month. The wound is healing wonderful. I used a totally natural product on her after about 15 days. I was concerned about the long term effects of the antibiotic's. If you are interested let me know, I will send you the link. I swear by the product now. Have used it on many things  |
Kathleen Martin
Member
Username: kathim
Post Number: 6
Registered: 4-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 6, 2009 - 7:47 pm: | |
Hi Tami,
I read through your case just before I joined. I am so glad she is healing nicely. I cannot stand people who do not take care of their animals. I could not even begin to count the number of abandoned dogs, cats, and horses my family has taken in, nursed back to health, and found GOOD homes for. If I could (and my hubby would let me), I would have kept them all myself.
Please let me know of the product you used. After doing more research, I'm rethinking keeping FuraSeptin in my first aid kit. I prefer as natural and organic for my human family, so I should provide the same for my animal family.
I will be loading a few more pics at photobucket to show Jeks progress.
Thanks so much,
Kathi |
Kathleen Martin
Member
Username: kathim
Post Number: 7
Registered: 4-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 6, 2009 - 8:23 pm: | |
Got the newest pics posted. They are from tonight after scrubbing and before putting the Granulex on.
http://s631.photobucket.com/albums/uu33/kathimartin09/jeks%20leg/ |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 22925
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, May 7, 2009 - 8:12 am: | |
Tami, if you let us know what product you are using we can assess it on these boards for all too see. When you make a recommendation of these boards it needs to be reviewable by all.
DrO |
Tami
Member
Username: tamarag
Post Number: 100
Registered: 1-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, May 7, 2009 - 11:23 am: | |
Hello
Here is the information on the product that I have been using on Smokey for several months. The things I like about it, when I put it on Smokey doesn't act like it stings at all. Due to the products in it, the flies stay off. So I am able to rinse out like DR O explaines for deep wounds, then I apply and can turn Smokey out for a hr or so without a bandage on the wound now that it is almost healed. I like the fact that fresh air can get to it. http://fiskes.ca/howitworks.html
I have recently used it on a chicken that dogs got a hold of and pretty much skinned. I put this on her for several days. She is now back out in the coop and feathers coming back in. She was near death when I found her. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 22933
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Friday, May 8, 2009 - 6:39 am: | |
Tami this is similar to the product we discussed before. Again it is important to note that many of these ingredients will slow wound healing therefore should not be used on open wounds: there is nothing natural about putting pine tar on a open wound. If you look at the indications on the page you link to above, wounds are not listed.
DrO |
Tami
Member
Username: tamarag
Post Number: 103
Registered: 1-2009
| | Posted on Friday, May 8, 2009 - 11:26 am: | |
DR. O
This is the same product. I have used it for several months. I honestly feel it has done a great job. I don't know what to say about slowing down the healing process. I think that considering the damage on my mare and the size of the wound, it is amazing where we are at.
Tami |
rtrotter
Member
Username: rtrotter
Post Number: 224
Registered: 4-2008
| | Posted on Friday, May 8, 2009 - 2:17 pm: | |
Tami,
I have been following your thread for quite a while and yes it is amazing getting to the point you are at now. However, you may have gotten there quicker had you not used the product you are using.
Last year, I had a mare go down in a freak accident (Do a search on Road Rash to find my earlier thread). Her knees looked like swiss cheese, I never thought they would heal. By following the wound care instructions, her knees healed enough in 1 month for her to resume training and she was racing and winning 2 months after the original injury.
One of the things I did not use because of Dr. O's advice in the wound care article was hydrogen peroxide which I had used in the past on these types of wounds. IMHO, her wounds healed much faster without it and I did not have to torture her with the hydrogen peroxide in an open wound( I know how much that can burn). I did use Nolvasan ointment and for a few days I used an animalintex poultice pad to draw out and cool out both of her knees and that seemed to work fine.
If you look at her knees now, you would never know she ever had a problem. The hair has grown back and there is only a slight bump that looks like a normal part of her knee where the worst of the cuts were.
All I can say is that we all have our favorite products that we can't seem to live without, but I think our horses would be fine even if they weren't available. I think it makes us feel better to do something to help them out.
BTW, are you riding her yet?
Rachelle |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 22940
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 9:44 pm: | |
That is the problem Tami that you are not able to go back and look what would have happened if you had done something different. That is why we use large studies to compare different treatment and different results. I have seen many wounds that were treated with such products that did not do well. If your wound is doing well I assure you it is the other good care, and not the pine tar, that is helping.
DrO |
Tami
Member
Username: tamarag
Post Number: 105
Registered: 1-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 19, 2009 - 4:45 pm: | |
Yes I am riding her. We went for our first ride over the weekend. Smokey is as full of her self as always. Why walk, when you can trot.
As for the product, my vet said he was amazed at where were came from to where we are at now. He has asked me to put together pictures and the date line of what I did. Of course I feel that without this site, and DR O's explaining the care of her wound in the beginning there is a good chance I would have followed the first vets advice to put her down.
But I don't think you will change my mind on the product. When her leg would swelling, I would paint the product on the entire lower leg, the next day the swelling would be down. I just really saw the difference, when I used it to when I didn't.
I still put a nice coat of it on everyday. It keeps the flies away from the area still healing. I guess to each there own. One lady told me she had a wound a on horse a lot worse than Smokey's. She wrapped it in bacon grease every day. After healed you couldn't see the scar. She never washed it out or anything. |
Tami
Member
Username: tamarag
Post Number: 106
Registered: 1-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 19, 2009 - 4:46 pm: | |
Kathy...
Sorry for stepping all over your thread. How is your horse? Any pictures???? I was lucky that mine hit in the cold weather...well for the wound anyways. I was so sick of cold weather and hoses! |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 23007
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 20, 2009 - 7:20 am: | |
Hello Tami,
There are thousands of ways to treat a wound and have it heal but there is only one best way. I am not sure that anyone knows what the single best way is but I have treated thousands of equine wounds, at least a hundred as bad a yours, and dozens far worse. On top of my experience with the techniques described and what I consider excellent outcomes, research is clear that the excessive use of odd ball chemicals only slows down the rate of skin reformation when compared with milder more tissue friendly techniques.
On the other hand I have treated wounds that have been previously treated with products just like the one you are using and wounds treated with bacon grease and wounds treated with stuff much odder than that. Some of these have become complicated with excessive granulation tissue or difficult to treat ulcers. I would be more supportive of bacon grease than pine tar and rubrifacient aromatic oils. You have the experience with this one wound Tami and I am delighted things are going well but it is important for our other readers they know there is a better way.
DrO |
Kathleen Martin
Member
Username: kathim
Post Number: 8
Registered: 4-2009
| | Posted on Friday, May 22, 2009 - 6:29 am: | |
Hi Tami,
No worries, that happens from time to time. Congrats on your ride! You must be in heaven to have reached that milestone.
I had a set back with Jeks. My daughter forgot to lock his stall bars the other night, after visiting with him. And being the escape artist he is, he got loose and tore his wound open again. I went out to feed and there he is, blood streaming down his leg, looking at me like "Good morning mom! I had a great time playing with the guys last night." LOL
On the serious side though, here's the new pics:
http://s631.photobucket.com/albums/uu33/kathimartin09/?newest=1
Still sound as can be on it, but swelling and heat is back. Time for penicillin. My step-daughter raced horses for years and she suggested following the penicillin with sulphur pills until he's healed. She had a couple horses get wounds that were about a third this size, different locations, and that's what her vet had her do. I've heard they can build up an immunity to the sulphur though. Dr. O, what is your advice on this?
Thanks,
Kathi |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose
Post Number: 4997
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Friday, May 22, 2009 - 10:56 am: | |
Kathleen, don't you just want to shoot them sometimes! After all the time and effort put into making him better... At least he's able to run aroumd now!
Tami- congratulations on how well your horse is healing! Finally, all the time and effort you've put in is paying off. I know from your posts there were times when you were really discouraged and frustrated. Aren't you glad you didn't listen to the first advice you received! |
Tami
Member
Username: tamarag
Post Number: 114
Registered: 1-2009
| | Posted on Friday, May 22, 2009 - 11:17 am: | |
I am sorry about the new problem. Smokey did the same thing. You would let her out, she would act like a crazy mare...running, bucking.
Are you pressure wrapping him? |
Kathleen Martin
Member
Username: kathim
Post Number: 9
Registered: 4-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, May 24, 2009 - 7:37 pm: | |
I'm not wrapping. Had all I could do to keep it wrapped when he first got hurt. Even tried a little bit of duct tape, he got that off too! I would find all the layers crunched down around his ankle. I was ready to make a splint from his ankle to his thigh just to keep the wraps on!
I've been doctoring twice a day now and it's looking awesome! New pics are posted..
http://s631.photobucket.com/albums/uu33/kathimartin09/jeks%20leg/
it's amazing how good it looks from just 4 days ago! At least I think so.
Been doing ground exercises daily just to give him time outside. He's been such a good patient. I can even give him an all over hose bath now, before it was sponge and bucket, he was so scared of the hose. Now he'll drink from the hose. It's so comical. |
Tami
Member
Username: tamarag
Post Number: 116
Registered: 1-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, May 24, 2009 - 11:27 pm: | |
It does look much better. I would still think a pressure wrap would be good. I am not the professional here by any means. But I think it would help with proud flesh. I just removed Smokey's bandage.
Have you tried to spray Bitter Apple on the vet wrap to keep him from pulling it off? Are you getting a good cushion of cotton under the vet wrap? I had no idea how to wrap correctly when our wound happened. I learned a lot of the article Dr O wrote on the correct way to bandage. I also purchased the right products and it seemed to make all the difference on what stayed on and what fell off.
The cost is about $2.25 a day, but it was well worth it.
If I can help you with what I used, please let me know...if you know how already...sorry for telling you what to do. |
Kathleen Martin
Member
Username: kathim
Post Number: 10
Registered: 4-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 26, 2009 - 7:26 pm: | |
I wasn't wrapping correctly the first couple days, till I found this site. By then Jeks had it down pat to tear it off. Sometimes I think he was doing it just to get me up to his stall more often He is so mischievious!
When I got him, our barn was still being constructed and he would pick up tools and walk away with them! Anything from a hammer, to a level, even the circular saw!
I do wish I had pressure wrapped it from the beginning. It seems to be coming along well now, so my hubby says to just keep doing what I'm doing. I'll post more pics tomorrow. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 23045
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - 8:31 am: | |
I too use to believe pressure wrapping would minimize proud flesh but it turns out that is frequently not the case. In uncomplicated healing wounds wrapping actually promotes proud flesh. I think there are two important exceptions to this rule:
1) A wound becomes grossly contaminated with dirt if not protected.
2) If there is a large flap that needs to granulate down to the underlying tissue.
So consider the use of wraps carefully. Wounds early should be wrapped until well granulated in, to help protect from infection, it is later in the wound healing that this becomes less sure.
DrO |
