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Discussion on Swollen fetlock

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DianE
Member
Username: scooter

Post Number: 4496
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 8, 2009 - 7:41 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dr.O. or others I found a huge swelling on Hanks fetlock tonight...I suspect he may have slipped in the mud, it was fine this morning. It is a Hard swelling tho on the outside and softer towards the cannon bone. He doesn't seem lame at the walk..maybe a tiny bit. He did seem a little tender to palpation. I locked him in the lean, gave a gram of bute and will call vet in the morning if it isn't better.

Any ideas what this is?? Should I start crying now?


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leslie645
Member
Username: leslie1

Post Number: 897
Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 8, 2009 - 8:02 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Oh no D.
Big Hugs and dont start crying . He will probably be Ok in the morning. I swear, your horses like to 'make your life interesting' dont they? Let us know how he is in the morn.
Hugs
L
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Fran C
Member
Username: canter

Post Number: 2084
Registered: 1-2000
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 8, 2009 - 8:21 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Bummer, Diane. In addition to the bute, I'd cold hose as well - that will also help relieve some inflammation.

Hope whatever it is, Hank will be back to 100% in a day or two.
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DianE
Member
Username: scooter

Post Number: 4497
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 8, 2009 - 8:43 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks, I don't have a good feeling about it, the weird part it is just swollen on the outside and rear, the inside seemed ok, but did have a little heat. I looked in the fetlock pictures and can't quite figure out what it is.

I think my vet is on vacation, I haven't seen his truck at the clinic this week.

Here's the inside
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rtrotter
Member
Username: rtrotter

Post Number: 290
Registered: 4-2008
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 8, 2009 - 8:51 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane,

Cold water hose it and slap some poultice on it. It could be an insect bite or he could have hit it on something while rolling.

Hopefully, not anything more serious than that.

Rachelle
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DianE
Member
Username: scooter

Post Number: 4498
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 8, 2009 - 9:52 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks for the cold water reminder, I did cold hose it and had hubby watch him walk, he said he was a little short on it...maybe.

I don't think it is a bug bite, he could have smacked on something, but not much for him to do that on our fences are all hot wire tho the paddock is wood. It is very hard almost like bone. That is the fetlock that pops very loudly and moves then he will be "off" until it pops back in. If his fetlock popped out of place would he be lame? Is that even possible?
http://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/4/196231.html
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Vicki
Member
Username: kpaint

Post Number: 204
Registered: 3-2009
Posted on Thursday, Jul 9, 2009 - 4:32 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hank seems to have put on this earth to worry you! Hope good news comes your way.
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DianE
Member
Username: scooter

Post Number: 4499
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Thursday, Jul 9, 2009 - 7:34 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Still swollen, and maybe a little more heat. It is eerily reminding me of Flashes bowed tendon. I wonder if I should have the vet bring an US or x-ray machine if he is even there this week.. UGGGH. He doesn't seem lame on it, but I haven't asked him to move much either.

Figures I finally get him sound and a good boy under saddle and this happens
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro

Post Number: 23374
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Thursday, Jul 9, 2009 - 9:05 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hello DianE,
This area is the most posterior position of the annular ligament and from posterior to anterior you would find:

skin
annular ligament
synovial sheath
superficial digital flexor tendon
deep digital flexor tendon

For a image of this area see References » Equine Illustrations » Leg Anatomy and Conformation » Pastern and Fetlock Anatomical Study. Swelling in any of the structures, or the connective tissues between these structures at this location would cause such a swelling, but most often enlargement of the annular ligament and/or ddf tendon would give that appearance.
DrO
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Lilo
Member
Username: lilo

Post Number: 1167
Registered: 4-2000
Posted on Thursday, Jul 9, 2009 - 9:12 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane - so sorry to hear about Hank's fetlock. I hope it resolves itself quickly, so you can go back to riding him. Good luck! Lilo
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Vicki Z
Member
Username: vickiann

Post Number: 1222
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Thursday, Jul 9, 2009 - 10:06 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Good grief, DianE,

Sorry to hear of another problem for you to worry about and hope that you will see a healing resolution before long.
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boots
Member
Username: boots

Post Number: 13
Registered: 12-2008
Posted on Thursday, Jul 9, 2009 - 11:35 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane - Any chance that Hank met up with a non-poisonous snake and was bitter on the fetlock?
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DianE
Member
Username: scooter

Post Number: 4500
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Thursday, Jul 9, 2009 - 12:03 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Vet just left. There were actually 2 vets, a new one started at their clinic and he is pretty sharp, it will be nice to have another vet around

They poked and prodded walked and trotted, Hank is a little short at the walk and probably a 2/5 at the trot. Both of them felt it was a couple days old, I can't believe I would miss that...but possible

They both agreed US would be of no help, x-rays would, but it is so swollen they want to wait until the swelling goes down.... so we are shooting for Mon. with any luck.

Their guess at this point is suspensory desmitis with possible sesamoid bone involement (possible bone chip or small fracture.) Which I don't see in Dr.O.'s list HMMM. I will look at the illustrations again when I get home from work. Right now the RX is cold hose (there is a little heat) and bute. They seemed optimistic, especially since Hanks fetlock hasn't dropped any. He said small pen turnout would be OK.

Dan said I didn't have to start crying yet! until we see the x-rays, but GUESSED he would be fine to ride again this summer sometime.
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jos
Member
Username: paardex

Post Number: 1454
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, Jul 9, 2009 - 3:17 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Oh Diane! I would by know be crying loud and angry! Finally a nice arena and now the horses give one problem after another. Aren't they magnificent in keeping you on edge?
I think you should start training Pukey perhaps cows are better suited for the job..
Keep my fingers crossed for you and hope you have at least our temps while coldhosing
Jos
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DianE
Member
Username: scooter

Post Number: 4501
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Thursday, Jul 9, 2009 - 3:45 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks Jos, Pukey is lame too.

I am A VERY, VERY bad horse mom, I looked back through my pictures and the swelling is present on 7-5. I rode him on the 5th too! I did not feel a lameness and he worked very well, unless he did it after.

Dr.O out of curiosity how could the vets tell it was older than I thought? Actually they thought it was about a week old at least. They actually said it felt like it has been there a long time, like all his life?? but Dan (my vet) said he had just checked his pulses that day(and through the years) he told me to put him on thro-L and said he would have noticed it. They both said in a way it felt like pystitis, which of course we know Hank is too old for... I did tell them about that joint popping out. It has been doing that for as long as I can remember.

7-5


6-20

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DianE
Member
Username: scooter

Post Number: 4502
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Thursday, Jul 9, 2009 - 5:42 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Note: Do not poultice BACK leg and walk away for a moment...Fly swatting tail led to a poulticed tail and body seems to be a fly repellent anyway!

The vet called to check how Hank was, I asked him how he knew the injury was older then a day. He said it takes awhile for swelling to become hard like that, if it was recent it would have been softer. I asked again what he thought it was in case I mis- understood. He said it was very hard to tell because of the swelling and hopefully I can get the swelling down enough by Mon. to do some diagnostics.
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Jo Ann
Member
Username: jowidner

Post Number: 511
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Thursday, Jul 9, 2009 - 6:20 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Shoot. If its not one thing its another. Is it my imagination, or is a sound horse that stays sound a rarity? Hope this turns out to be some small thing and wishing Hank a speedy recovery.
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jos
Member
Username: paardex

Post Number: 1455
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, Jul 9, 2009 - 8:40 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Do you have to cold hose Pukey to?
Seriously hope Hank does well, but a horned one stays a horned one!
Jos
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Lee
Member
Username: paul303

Post Number: 1319
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Thursday, Jul 9, 2009 - 11:16 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Maybe you could try bandaging a package of frozen peas to it a couple of times a day. Perhaps at feeding time while he is standing and eating. Might take things a little colder than hosing.

Perhaps DrO or your vet could give an opinion on the use of DMSO for the swelling. It can help with swelling, if your vet needs the swelling minimized for diagnostics.
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LL
Member
Username: frances

Post Number: 900
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Friday, Jul 10, 2009 - 6:52 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

For a swelling over a collateral ligament (pastern) my vet recently recommended 15 ml DMSO mixed with 150 gr "Hemaran" gel which is heparin (box actually said Heparoid 1%) - small amount to be applied twice daily.

So sorry to hear about a problem with Hank that you just DIDN'T need. Good luck.
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DianE
Member
Username: scooter

Post Number: 4503
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Friday, Jul 10, 2009 - 8:12 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks, vets said to stick with cold therapy until Mon. if that doesn't work we will start sweating it after his re-val Mon. There really isn't much heat in it anymore. Whether there was when it happened I don't know.

Hank doesn't look sore at all which makes me have hope. One vet trotted him and me and the other watched, he didn't even have a head bob. Just a little short, which at first you couldn't even see. I forgot to ask them to grade it, my guess was 2/5 but I'm not sure he was even that bad.

Still as swollen, with no heat this morning. The other vet wasn't convinced that bump wasn't bone, that's why they want to x-ray. It certainly feels like bone to me. Is it possible to be bone Dr.O.??

Thanks
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rtrotter
Member
Username: rtrotter

Post Number: 292
Registered: 4-2008
Posted on Friday, Jul 10, 2009 - 9:09 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane,

First, I want to say thank you for posting about the issues with all of your horses. Sometimes, you never know if what you post will help someone else with a problem they are having. I think this posting about Hank's fetlock has solved one of my problems with my racemare.

I posted in a different thread how all of a sudden she has this hard bony lump behind her knee. That she did not have the day before. The vet said she hit it. But that explanation did not make sense to me because I thought it would have been soft.

Your vets explanation of why Hank's bump is hard does make sense to me and I can see where I may not have noticed the soft filling as it was happening. The lump is in a weird place and unless you look at it from the front and know what her knees look like normally you may not notice any big difference. However, If I go back over the last six months after her accident, specifically her attitude after the races when anyone tried to go near her left side and culminating about 10 days ago when she kicked me in the head and hand. It should have clued me in to something else going on. I put her on an enforced vacation, she will be wearing kneeboots when she returns to the racing wars in August.

Now my question about Hank does he run down behind? The area where his swelling is almost looks like a rundown injury and the fact your vet seems to think its been around for a while before you noticed it and its hard makes me think that it is some type of ongoing injury to that area.

When I have a horse that I think may be running down, I put white vetrap on them and look for a dark area on the back of the vetrap under the fetlock. This may not be happening when you ride, but may happen out in the pasture.

Whatever it turns out to be, I hope its something simple like putting on a set of ankle boots that will solve the problem.

Rachelle
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DianE
Member
Username: scooter

Post Number: 4505
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Friday, Jul 10, 2009 - 1:36 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks Rachelle. Kicked in the head! hope you didn't get hurt badly! Hank was being a little goosy about his fetlock too when the vets were palpating it. Being the chow hound he is I fed him some "non sugar" treats and he forgot about it then!

Hank does not run down at all. The vets were really scratching their heads, because to them it felt chronic and ongoing. Both of them felt it multiple times and "discussed" it. Dan has been Hanks vet for quite a few years and as he said he would have noticed the big swelling at some point, and I would hope I would too He's had what I call a hitch in his get along for a long time, and now I wonder if this thing has been the problem all along, and just culminated into this huge "mass"
I hope the swelling goes down enough to figure it out!
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rtrotter
Member
Username: rtrotter

Post Number: 293
Registered: 4-2008
Posted on Friday, Jul 10, 2009 - 8:39 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane,

Nothing injured but my pride because I did not at all expect that reaction. This mare and I have gotten along really well and I usually do not like mares. She does not normally act like the wicked witch of the west( but her name is Wicked Persuasion and I always wondered how she got her name) and she tries so hard in a race, one can not help but like her.

I think she needed the time off, I started back with her yesterday and she is not acting stupid and seems to want to work ( I think she was bored). Hubby has jogging duties tomorrow, so we will see how she goes, I have her barefoot, so I don't think she'll be hitting herself anywhere near where the injury was. She is normally very good gaited and just paces everywhere she goes. I'll be able to tell if there's a "hitch in her giddyup" when I watch her jog.

I'm curious, why would the swelling matter on an xray, isn't the xray looking at the bones and not soft tissue?

Rachelle
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DianE
Member
Username: scooter

Post Number: 4507
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Friday, Jul 10, 2009 - 9:36 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I did ask the vets that, and for some reason they both said the picture would not be as good with the swelling. They don't have digital X-rays maybe that makes a difference. They said there RX would be the same at this point x-rays or not....rest and bute. I know when I hurt my knee they said x-rays were not as good with as much swelling I had...so don't know!

That boy is worrying me, he is not lame at all and has been trotting and cantering some in his pen. The thing doesn't seem to bother him at all.
The swelling has gone down a TINY bit I think.

Rachelle as I was reading about swollen fetlocks "they" mentioned bone chips more than once and said it was quite common in the knees of race horses too, which made me think of your mare. I wonder if they can get bone chips behind the knee?

Has her swelling gone down any?
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rtrotter
Member
Username: rtrotter

Post Number: 294
Registered: 4-2008
Posted on Friday, Jul 10, 2009 - 10:22 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I would think that they can get bonechips anywhere, but usually its within the joint itself. I've seen racehorses race with floating chips in their knees and the only time the chips bother them is when it gets into the actual joint. I've also seen where after they were removed the horse did not race at the same level he was at before the chips were removed.

I am going to try and find my camera tomorrow and see if she will stand still long enough for me to take a picture. I am going to need to get up close and personal and with the flies as bad as they are I am not sure if I am going to be able to get that close.

The swelling has gone down some but I can still see it. It doesn't seem to bother her and the vet doesn't seem concerned about it. He was more concerned with the tendon which seemed to resolve after two days. Her legs in general have responded to the time off, getting her shoes off and getting her rebalanced so her feet now look normal. Now of course, I have the problem of trying to keep my HPT barefoot trim so she'll stay sound when I am forced to put her shoes back on. It never ends.

If the xrays do not show anything on Hank or if the fetlock pops back in ( I read your 2007 posts on this) You might want to try a chiropractor. Mine works on the whole horses body including knees, hocks and ankles if necessary. I know my own people chiropractor has fixed my fingers and my knee, not just my back. If the joint is popping in and out like you described in your post, you might need to learn how to bandage so you can keep the joint supported and hopefully prevent future popouts.

Rachelle
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro

Post Number: 23385
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Saturday, Jul 11, 2009 - 2:58 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

While I cannot rule out sesamoid bone involvement Diane the bones lie distinctly to each side of the swelling. The proximal suspensory branches attach somewhat proximal to this swelling and the distals are lateral or deep. While the photos, as they appear above, would be an unusual presentation for a acute suspensory / sesamoid disease the angles and lighting may be misleading as to the location of the swelling, there may be something they see not in the photos, or something they palpate that leads then to this conclusion.
DrO
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DianE
Member
Username: scooter

Post Number: 4518
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Saturday, Jul 11, 2009 - 8:08 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hopefully we will see Mon. Dr.O. do you know the reason they want to bring the swelling down for x-rays???(they are not digital) Can a big amount of swelling skew x-rays?

His swelling is down a slight bit, and he seems very pasture sound anyway.

Thanks
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro

Post Number: 23392
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Sunday, Jul 12, 2009 - 8:51 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hmmm, considering the extent of the swelling in the above photo I would not have considered it an impedance to a good radiographic image. Consider we radiograph hocks and evem stifles and how much larger they are. When things get about the size of the leg at the stifle you start having problems with field radiography. Could you have misunderstand their concerns?
DrO
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DianE
Member
Username: scooter

Post Number: 4525
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Sunday, Jul 12, 2009 - 9:06 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I have a suspicion they didn't want to go back and get the x-ray machine. When I talked to him before he came out I told him I didn't know if US or X-rays were called for so he didn't bring either...probably didn't want to listen to me complain about 2 calls out and made that up.

Wait til I see him!
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DianE
Member
Username: scooter

Post Number: 4534
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Monday, Jul 13, 2009 - 6:03 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Well Hank got x-rayed twice today sigh. and neither time produced a good enough film to really tell. Vet said something about the film and was ordering new ones, so won't know for sure until Thurs. when we x-ray AGAIN. At least I'm not being charged anything for today. The 3 vets at the clinic looked at the poor films. my vet said he couldn't detect anything abnormal there, but the films weren't good enough for good diagnostics....the other 2 thought he had a slight fracture of the sesamoid bone.

I asked my vet if he had a fracture if he wouldn't be lame, he said you would think so..DrO. do you know??

Anyway everything is up in the air until Thurs and we are to keep doing what we're doing until then.
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leslie645
Member
Username: leslie1

Post Number: 909
Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Monday, Jul 13, 2009 - 6:36 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Good Grief!!!

Hugs till thurs.
L
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Lilo
Member
Username: lilo

Post Number: 1173
Registered: 4-2000
Posted on Monday, Jul 13, 2009 - 7:14 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Sorry Diane - still no definite diagnosis. All the best - hope you find out for sure on Thursday. Lilo
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Vicki Z
Member
Username: vickiann

Post Number: 1235
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Monday, Jul 13, 2009 - 8:33 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

It is hard to wait, but perhaps this is better than definitive bad news, so will hope that Hank didn't stand still enough to yield good pictures and hope that you get some good answers soon.

All best wishes.
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DianE
Member
Username: scooter

Post Number: 4537
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Monday, Jul 13, 2009 - 9:15 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hank stood like a rock TWICE! Vet even gives me a discount for his x-rays because he stands so well It was the film he thinks something about light exposure or something along those lines. He's calling the manufacturer because he thinks it was faulty films. He said hopefully new ones will be here by Weds-Thurs.

I noticed tonight he went to prop his left hind to rest it and immediately shifted his weight off the right hind...so there is some pain there
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leslie645
Member
Username: leslie1

Post Number: 913
Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Monday, Jul 13, 2009 - 9:38 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Ahhhh,
I thought you meant your vet wasnt very good with xrays LOL. and was over exposing them.
Fingers crossed for hankster
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Fran C
Member
Username: canter

Post Number: 2094
Registered: 1-2000
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 14, 2009 - 7:24 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

How very frustrating! Hopefully you get better results on Thursday.
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DianE
Member
Username: scooter

Post Number: 4540
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 14, 2009 - 7:57 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks, whatever it is I am not amused. The swelling is going down a smidge, but the heat is picking up. I have been cold hosing and poulticing, bute.

I would really like to know what I am dealing with, so I could treat it accordingly.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro

Post Number: 23408
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 14, 2009 - 9:56 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I would expect a acute fracture of the sesamoid to produce lameness.
DrO
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DianE
Member
Username: scooter

Post Number: 4541
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 14, 2009 - 4:37 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

SOOOO the vet called this morning and he talked to the tech guy about something or nother and wanted to try again He said he was loosing sleep over this as it was driving him nuts.

X-rays got taken again, and they were clear as a bell...I saw them. There is no apparent fracture. His joint spaces look good, not even any arthritic changes, except normal wear and tear.

Vet said it is a soft tissue injury, but now we don't know which soft tissue it is He thinks it is a suspensory branch that goes over the sesamoid bone...or something like that.

I guess it is good news that nothing is fractured, but tendon/ ligaments are almost as bad! He will be off for at least 6 weeks, but probably longer
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DianE
Member
Username: scooter

Post Number: 4542
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 14, 2009 - 6:22 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

DrO. I have been reading the articles on suspensory desmitis...that's what the vet thinks is Hanks problem. He doesn't know for sure. but doesn't think it is severe. When he was here the heat was gone and the swelling is going down some everyday...he doesn't seem lame, but from the article I take it that can be normal.

Is my next step US when the swelling is gone? How do I determine if he is ready to be ridden again?

My vet doesn't think it is anything serious. He doesn't even think he needs to be US. He likens it to a mildly sprained ankle and Hank will tell us when he's ready I don't think I like that approach. Vet said it could be 6 weeks to 6 mos. I am in no hurry to ride him, I want him to heal 1st. Of course the vet thinks exercise is imperative for IR Hank as soon as it is possible. I am confused as usual
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Lilo
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Username: lilo

Post Number: 1174
Registered: 4-2000
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 14, 2009 - 6:36 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

So sorry, Diane. Good news that there is no fracture, but I sense your frustration at not being able to ride. Hoping for speedy healing, Lilo
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DianE
Member
Username: scooter

Post Number: 4543
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 14, 2009 - 8:38 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dr.O. I just have to throw this out there I have mentioned for years that popping of Hanks fetlock, I don't think my vet paid attention to me, AND it may be totally unrelated. Please understand this is NOT normal popping it sounds like a gunshot going off...literally...not quite as loud (but close) the sound is very similar. It only happens in that Rt hind. He isn't a "poppy" horse otherwise.

That said tonight after I fed them their "feed" I threw the hay in the dry lot for them to eat. I stood in the paddock to watch Hank to see if I could see any lameness. He started to trot(he likes to be first to the hay) and was very level...no limp, no bute this morning because of impending exam. He took the corner to the dry lot and POP, I know that sound it was his fetlock.

He kept trotting stopped and started eating his hay. I waited awhile and out of curiosity went to see if his fetlock looked any different...I had it poulticed so it was hard to tell for sure, but it did look different. I just checked it again and it is literally 1/2 the size it was before the "pop". If I didn't have it poulticed I'd take a pic...the difference is remarkable enough to make me go HMMMMMM.

Have you any idea what would make his fetlock pop like that...the joint does move when it does this....ask my farrier. He thought Hanks fetlock had broke right in his hand when he was trimming his rt. rear one day. This doesn't happen often, that I am aware of anyway, seems like once or twice a year and that's it. His x-rays were clean. Whether it is related to this injury who knows, but I still am curious as to what could cause this?

I also can't wait to see what that fetlock looks like in the morning, the swelling has been stubborn coming out of there and I haven't noticed much improvement over the course of the last few days. Here is a pic from tonight before poulticing and the "pop"

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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
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Post Number: 23413
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 15, 2009 - 6:30 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

In these images the swelling appears more lateral than in those above, putting it over the sesamoid and suspensory apparatus. Which is it Diane, is it squarely in the middle of the back of the fetlock or over the sesamoid or possibly both?

Typically joint popping is attributed to one of two things: joint fluid rapidly transiting a small aperture or the loud abrupt strumming of a ligament has it passes over an obstruction. I am not sure what the relation to this might be.
DrO
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DianE
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Post Number: 4546
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 15, 2009 - 7:01 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dr.O it is more lateral it is not in the middle of the fetlock. Vet thinks it is his suspensory. When he showed me his x-rays he said the sesamoid bone looked great...delineation was good. Got his vet book out and showed me pics, for comparison. Joint spaces very good, everything on the radiographs as far as skeletal looked VERY good. There was a little osselet (I think that's what he called it) in the front of his fetlock, which he said would not be causing any problems. If I have time today I will see if I can get the x-rays and post them.

Thanks
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Fran C
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 15, 2009 - 7:38 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane,

You may remember my mare came up lame with a suspensory injury. I don't know if it's the exact same thing as Hank is experiencing (she didn't have any swelling), but I bring it up to give you hope: when first diagnosed, the vet said we were done for at least the summer. I followed his instructions to the "t" with cold hosing, bute, hand walking, re-shod w/ pads and limited, small turnout (vs stall rest - we figured she'd be quieter in a small turnout with her favorite pasture mate instead of stuck in a stall...and she was). Anyway, she improved remarkably to the point that she appeared completely sound within 1 week. I continued to monitor and let her rest for a few weeks before calling the vet back in to re-evaluate...and she was back to 100%...I slowly put her back in work and at this point, she is in full work again. So, all that said, I hope that Hank's injury heals as quickly and there is hope that these things, when carefully treated, improve sooner than we hope for.
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DianE
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 15, 2009 - 7:56 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks Fran I will take any hope I can get! That's another thing I need to ask the vet. I wonder if egg bar shoes or something like that would help while he is recovering. Farrier is scheduled for tomorrow.

Well It looked the same this morning, so the pop didn't help anything! The poultice must have made me think it looked smaller last night...or maybe hope!
Thanks
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DianE
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 15, 2009 - 4:02 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Oblique...I hung these in the window so there is a little "backround noise" in them.

Lateral
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DianE
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 15, 2009 - 7:58 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I was hoping to catch him trotting to his hay tonight, but no Hank is the second one out of the gate, but 1st to the hay LOL

Here's a video of him going out for his hay, I guess it doesn't show much. Sometimes I think he looks a little off and sometimes I don't
http://picasaweb.google.com/hank97/20090715?authkey=Gv1sRgCKuk7OSSy-653wE#5358835186006851922

Walk from behind
http://picasaweb.google.com/hank97/20090715?authkey=Gv1sRgCKuk7OSSy-653wE#5358835931033906130

Fetlock tonight, It does look much better tonight I think, but we know what wishful thinking can do to our vision!



I would appreciate any opinions(other then his hooves...farriers coming tomorrow
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DianE
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 15, 2009 - 9:34 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

BTW if you turn up the volume you can here Hanks fetlock "pop/crack" about when he is going over the dip in he ground. It did it again tonight I was surprised to find I could here it on the video.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
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Username: dro

Post Number: 23419
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 16, 2009 - 8:05 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hello Diane,
the images appear out of focus (a camera artifact?) and lacks proper contrast. I don't see any abnormality but you should use your veterinarians judgement on this.. I think the walk is uneven but so are a lot of sound horses you should evaluate your horse at a trot: what do the vets say about lameness?
DrO
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DianE
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 16, 2009 - 8:20 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dr.O.The pictures of the x-rays did turn out poorly!
When both the vets were here the 1st day. I walked, trotted Hank for them and they saw nothing.

Then the other vet walk, trotted him..in a straight line, and we both thought he looked a TINY bit short on RR other than that he LOOKED sound. No hip drop, head level.

I do believe he has some pain there, but mild.

I have been wanting to lunge him at the trot to see how he looks, but didn't know if doing a couple circles would be bad or not...I could video him easier then too???

Do you think US would tell me anything once the swelling is gone?

He usually don't gallop around like that, he must have known I was taking a video Which turned out crappy, just like my pics of the x-rays...one of those days I guess!

Thanks
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
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Post Number: 23444
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Posted on Monday, Jul 20, 2009 - 8:29 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Not once the swelling is gone, if you want to know which tissues are swollen you need to look at them while they are swollen.
DrO
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DianE
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Posted on Monday, Jul 20, 2009 - 12:38 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks Dr.O I get such conflicting advice I am about ready to give up horses

The vet actually called this morning and wanted to know how Hanks fetlock was. I told him about half the size it was, but now he is crippled from pulling his shoes. Vet said he was going to see if I wanted to US today, but since his fronts were killing him we would wait. He did suggest I get him back in shoes so as not to aggravate the suspensory any further.
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Vicki Z
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Posted on Monday, Jul 20, 2009 - 4:43 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Conflicting advice really is frustrating, Diane.

My Veterinarian who I like a lot prefers the Ric Redden type of approach and will suggest more elaborate measures than my farrier approves of. He also trims quite differently than my farrier.

They are both good and smart with my horses but it is very hard when they disagree about something.

Both expect their advice to be followed. (sigh)

Once my Vet patched a broken foot up with some filler material on account of a heel being broken out up to the coronet band, and only a couple of days later when my farrier came out, he immediately removed it without really asking me, just said he had to take it out, which he did while explaining why and telling me how more damage had been inflicted by this process. My farrier had devised a simple shoe that had a gap space below the broken heel and this is what the Vet had filled, if I remember correctly.

I never did have the nerve to tell my Vet that his patch job was summarily dismantled so quickly! In fact, some time later when he was pleased with how the situation had progressed and asked if there had been any problem with the patch falling out prematurely, I wasn't lying when I said "No." I just didn't have the heart to tell him it didn't fall out but was removed. I respect him a great deal as a veterinarian and rely upon him as I do my farrier.

The fact is, nobody is right 100% of the time. And perhaps sometimes opinions and treatments might differ without a markedly different outcome?
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DianE
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Posted on Monday, Jul 20, 2009 - 4:45 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Finally some good news. Vet DID come out and US Hank. all tendons and ligaments look GOOD! The swelling is starting to get softer and has gone down about 50%. He said he would say with confidence he will be fine!

He flexed good on that fetlock,he was even at walk, trot. He said in about 2 weeks or when the swelling is gone I can start him in light work. If it swells..back off ect. So good news and nothing terribly serious. He thinks it was a trauma induced injury!!!
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Vicki Z
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Posted on Monday, Jul 20, 2009 - 6:33 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Great news, Diane.

Wishing continued improvement for Hank.
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DianE
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 26, 2009 - 9:21 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dr.O according to the vet, Hanks x-rays and US look good. He said I could ride him lightly the day he US him. He flexed clean and does not palpate sore, yet the swelling persists with a tiny bit of heat in one spot on a scale of 1-10 I would rate it a 1.

Today I decided to lunge him to see how he moved behind. I lunged him at liberty so the circle wasn't real small, a little bigger than a lunge line. He was very willing to trot and hold it going to the left...I saw no lameness. Going to the right he did not want to hold his trot...he really didn't want to trot period! I did not see any obvious lameness except a bit of a toe drag on the RH. His FR seems to be a little sore since shoe removal so I guess I'm not really sure if his reluctance to trot right is his front hoof OR his RH??

Vet said it was suspensory desmitis so I have been reading the articles.

Here is a quote from the article
The swelling in the acute phase represents bleeding and inflammation that may cause both intra-ligamentous and peri-ligamentous fluid accumulation. Chronic firm swelling may represent fibrous change of the ligament. Occasionally heat and swelling accumulate around a suspensory ligament with no ultrasonographic evidence of disease in the suspensory itself. This should be a sign to slow down a bit and careful scrutiny of work outs, but complete rest not usually required

This paragraph seems to sum up his injury pretty well. Vet said I could start him back in light work, but I thought maybe I should wait to the swelling is completely gone? When the 2 vets were here for the first exam they both thought it felt like a "chronic" injury, but he has never had swelling like that before. Is it possible that swelling will never go away?

Here is a pic of his fetlock from tonight, I circled the area I feel a tiny bit of heat and as you can see it isn't much smaller

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DianE
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Posted on Monday, Jul 27, 2009 - 8:01 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dr.O. I forgot he was willing to trot straight lines, just in case that matters
Thanks
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
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Username: dro

Post Number: 23507
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 28, 2009 - 8:05 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

DianE, if your veterinarian has diagnosed a acute single branch suspensory desmitis I would consider following the recommendations at Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Lower Limb » Suspensory Desmitis, Strain, & Sprain there is a subtopic on this specific injury in the article.
DrO
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DianE
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 28, 2009 - 10:03 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I guess I just don't get it, I read that article a couple times. It sounds as if this may not heal from the article. Stall rest is recommended? My vet said turnout was ok as long as he was quiet. He is for the most part, but is quite capable of a gallop around the field.

The vet said there were no lesions, of course their US machine is a relic. The day he US him he said I could probably start lunging him and riding him at walk. I told him with that swelling I didn't think that was a good idea yet. I want that swelling or lump whatever it is to be gone before I start him back to light work and of course the slight lameness I see. Vet says he doesn't see a lameness, but he is not very good at that

Hank actually looks better trotting and cantering than he does walking. He looks short to me at the walk with a slight toe drag, He goes down hills well, but going up hills or even a slight incline he stops and rests that leg. Was off on lunge with the leg on the INSIDE of the circle and not really willing to trot. straight looks OK at trot

I am a bit confused by it all between my vet and the article.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
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Username: dro

Post Number: 23515
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 29, 2009 - 12:24 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

DianE, I can understand your confusion. I have never gotten acute suspensory injuries to heal without stall rest but I have never seen a sound one either. Then again if this is a chronic change that has been around for awhile and not associated with a acutely weakened or sore ligament your vets advice seems pretty good.
DrO
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DianE
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 29, 2009 - 4:37 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks Dr.O. I remain confused

How would a person determine if this is a chronic injury? When the vets examined him initially they both thought it FELT chronic, but he has never had swelling like that. I must admitt I'm not one for checking for heat in the legs and may miss a subtle swelling....

Thinking back on it I do believe that fetlock has been "bigger" for awhile. He has had a "hitch in his get along for quite some time and it has always been on the rt. side. I never could quite figure out what caused that and may be unrelated.

He always has moved kind of "strange behind" even my hubby has commented on that.

Obviously if it is acute I should be approaching this differently. He is not what I would call sound behind.

Yikes I just went and looked through some pictures, I had to crop his leg out, but it does appear as if there is some swelling in that area...these are from 07-08. It isn't quite as significant as it is now, but looks like there was some there HMMMMMM
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leslie645
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Post Number: 926
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 29, 2009 - 5:21 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

D
Because that is where his sock starts, I believe it would be very easy to miss seeing it.

If it does turn up that it is an old injury....I hope you dont beat yourself up over it. Those areas between hair pigment (sock) are hard to *see*

L
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rtrotter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 29, 2009 - 5:40 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane,

This may be a case where diagnostic blocking might come in handy. First to determine whether that hitch you've been seeing is related and second to see exactly where in the leg the problem lies.

The reason it may be chronic is that Hank may be doing something that keeps irritating this area and it has caused some sort of bony contusion thats rubbing on the suspensory. It may be very tiny.

My colt had something like that ( very tiny chip under the suspensory)( digital x-rays found it). I did the x-rays right before I had stake payments due because I was suspicious of the way he was standing, never wanted to stand square and always had one or the other foot resting) Two vets (including Dr. Hogan-Smarty Jones) looked at the x-rays and told me that it shouldn't affect him and it was in a place that would be more affected if we did surgery to remove it. It also looked as looked like it had been there for a very long time(like as a weanling or congenital) and was as healed as it was ever gonna get). We did 3 treatments of shockwave therapy and he continued to train down to the races with no problems. But like you, I always thought there was something wrong because he could never finish his miles strongly and he had the breeding and ability to do so.

On another note: Maybe Hank's chronic fetlock problem is a contributing cause to his front feet problem, along with all the rest of the causes you have uncovered. One of the best diagnostic vets on the East coast once told me that many front end problems are secondary to hind end problems and fixing the hind end can sometimes fix the front.

I have found this to be true and finding the primary cause for a lameness can answer a lot of other questions.

Rachelle
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DianE
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 29, 2009 - 6:34 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks I am process of downloading a video,(they take forever!) I'll be curious if you guys and Dr.O. thinks he looks "lame" Actually in the video he looks better than I thought. He was a bit of a snot since I haven't done anything with him for a month.
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DianE
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 29, 2009 - 11:07 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Here's a video, it's kind of long, time flies when you are having fun I wanted to make sure I got views from every angle at walk, trot...I guess he really doesn't look too bad????
http://picasaweb.google.com/hank97/20090729HankFetlockVideo?authkey=Gv1sRgCKLIt5O7g6zN7wE#5364072963862800274

Here's a pic of his fetlock tonight
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Ann
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 30, 2009 - 9:39 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

DianE I don't see much on the video.. he moves like a 1/4 pony / arab / ? cross .. .I see solid impack and foreward movement..
And a well trained at liberty horse..

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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leslie645
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 30, 2009 - 11:03 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Wow D!
Fantastic at lib! Im sooo impressed:-) Will you train my guys to do that too???

He seems to be moving good to me. I dont see or hear anything .
L
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DianE
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 30, 2009 - 2:37 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks I don't see much on the video that worries me either. I was actually impressed with snorty boy with his retention of training. I have only played at liberty once for a minute this month. He's doing very well at it and his riding is coming along nicely too....until that fetlock!

Ann that is his breeding and he does move the part.

Though when getting "on the bit" he is an awesome mover.

Leslie actually it was quite easy to train Hank to liberty training, you should see the things I have him doing now, or at least had him doing before this fetlock thing!

I wonder if it would be safe to start light work with him. He didn't have any bute for 2 days before that video.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
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Post Number: 23524
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 30, 2009 - 6:01 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane, a chronic injury would be one that happened a while back but still has signs of inflammation or fibrosis. An acute injury occurred recently. I don't see any evidence of lameness on the video but I wonder what a flexion test on that ankle would show.
DrO
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DianE
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 30, 2009 - 7:26 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks Dr.O. actually the vet did flex test him last time he was here, he flexed negative....way better than I thought he would have.

SOOO is it possible that "swelling" won't go away? Why would that swelling have gotten so big all of the sudden if it is chronic?

Vet said I could work him lightly and just pay attention if the swelling gets worse or heat appears, but I don't want to make anything worse so I am hesitant.

How do I determine I can start riding him again??

US...was clean

x-ray...was clean

flex test...was good.

The swelling remains and sometimes a tiny bit of heat in the spot I circled in the above pic.

He is not his "spunky" self, but I'm not sure why...could be the removal of the clover, could be his front feet are still a bit sore, maybe he has finally grown up after 12 yrs.!...don't know
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DianE
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Posted on Friday, Jul 31, 2009 - 11:55 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I called the vet this morning and asked him what he thought about Hank going back to light work. I said for now I would be happy to be able to just do some liberty training with him. He said to go ahead and see what happens, he didn't think it would hurt him any and if he remains sound I could start walk riding him in a couple weeks. He soooo needs the exercise!
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Vicki Z
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Posted on Friday, Jul 31, 2009 - 12:04 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I hope that this will go well for you and Hank, Diane.

Keep us informed please.
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DianE
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Posted on Friday, Jul 31, 2009 - 5:34 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dr.O. I posted an at Liberty video in training and I have been watching one segment over and over and can't quite figure out what that was. I am pretty sure it wasn't misbehavior..was that a stifle catch?

It was his LH and the RH is the swollen one...if you wouldn't mind looking at this I would appreciate it. it is between 2:50 and 3 mins on the video timer at the bottom of the video Thank You
http://picasaweb.google.com/hank97/20090731HankMusic?authkey=Gv1sRgCK3anLi36fWrT w#5364714030704031762
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DianE
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Posted on Friday, Jul 31, 2009 - 5:45 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

OH OH NEVER MIND It just occured to me he had one of those HUGE B-1 bomber horse flies attack him then! Sorry... my memory isn't what it used to be
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Vicki Z
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Posted on Friday, Jul 31, 2009 - 6:49 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

WOW, Diane -- really cool video! I see what you mean though asking about the possible hitch and hope that it was a biting fly.
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DianE
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Posted on Friday, Jul 31, 2009 - 7:12 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks Vicki I made 5 videos today and that bomber horse fly was after him in all of them, I had forgotten about that....I'm sure that's what it was now that I remembered. I'm actually surprised he didn't have a bigger fit!
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Lee
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 1, 2009 - 12:47 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Yeah, Diane, I have a 29 yr old with a stifle problem, and you can REALLY see it. She's in good shape, but you can really see the hitch when she moves out. She did reining in her youth, and she's a lot more short coupled than Hank.

Hank looks darn good in spite of that fetlock swelling.
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DianE
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 1, 2009 - 11:26 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks Lee, Yes he doesn't look too bad, but he surely isn't his enthusiastic self...something is definitely bothering him. I THINK it may still be his front hooves. When I talked to the vet yesterday he highly recommended putting his shoes back on for different reasons. The lime in my arena is abrasive and his hoof wall will keep wearing down, we don't really know how the fetlock is doing because his fronts hurt, we have ran all diagnostics, short of blocks on his fetlock and it appears nothing is seriously wrong with it. I would really like to get this resolved soon, or at least know what I'm dealing with.

Based on his lack of enthusiasm yesterday (he is a horned one with energy to spare when feeling well) something is definitely hurting. Based on my past experiences with him I would almost bet it was his front hooves. This is how he acts when they hurt. I'm off the barefoot journey and putting shoes on Mon. That should tell me how I stand with his fetlock more than anything
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
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Post Number: 23532
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Posted on Monday, Aug 3, 2009 - 9:53 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane these are questions to ask the veterinarian who examined your horse. The combination of physical, radiographic, and ultrasound examine should provide him with the necessary information, which I do not see in any of your posts above.
DrO
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DianE
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Posted on Monday, Aug 3, 2009 - 4:05 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

HMMMM Dr.O. I have all of his findings in my posts?

Unless you mean my question about the "swelling"?

He said he was surprised it hasn't continued to go down. it is probably 3/4 's the size it was originally...so not much improvement in a moths time. I still don't see any lameness in his RH. I believe his front hooves are a little sore tho.

Farrier canceled on me this afternoon, so shoes are going on tomorrow and I will know then. I did put his boots on yesterday and he was MUCH more willing to trot and way more enthusiastic. His boots don't fit him very well tho so don't want to use them too much..I just wanted to see if it helped him and it did.

That swelling does not seem painful to him, YET I'm not sure if I should work him lightly. After the very first exam the vet said sometimes these swelling don't go away. I asked him after the US just what was causing it and he said(not quoting) something like the suspensory was inflammed under the sesamoid bone and pushing it out??? Does that make sense to you? And if his suspensory is inflammed that much I sure hesitate to work him...Still confused

Vet said to go ahead and work him, but something in my gut tells me not to. He gallops in pasture trots up the hills and other than that swelling you would never know there was anything wrong with his RH.

In your article it does say it can turn fibrotic, perhaps this is what has happened as I thin that swelling has been there for a few years, just not to this extent.

Any thoughts... Thanks
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
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Post Number: 23534
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 4, 2009 - 7:41 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane, I don't remember reading exactly which specific tissues are swollen and what is the exact nature of the enlarged tissues?
DrO
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DianE
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Post Number: 4668
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 4, 2009 - 8:02 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dr.O. I think I posted above that this excerpt from your article on suspensory desmitis summed it up way better than I can

The swelling in the acute phase represents bleeding and inflammation that may cause both intra-ligamentous and peri-ligamentous fluid accumulation. Chronic firm swelling may represent fibrous change of the ligament. Occasionally heat and swelling accumulate around a suspensory ligament with no ultrasonographic evidence of disease in the suspensory itself. This should be a sign to slow down a bit and careful scrutiny of work outs, but complete rest not usually required

Is that what you mean? I sure would like to get to the bottom of this. I can't say I trust the vet on this 100%....as far as going back to light work. He told me to harrow my footing very deep 4-6 inches in my arena when I worked him.

WELLL since I have learned so much about footing from my arena thread, that just doesn't seem to be the right thing to do with a suspensory injury or even if there isn't an injury!

I told him I didn't think that was right and maybe he should go research that a little. I think he learns a lot through this website too Not directly, but at least I can have a semi-intelligent conversation with him, and get him thinking quite often anyway. He does not take offense to this which is great! BUT Dr.O. your articles and all the help I receive has made the vet trust my judgement TOOOOO much! He said I was smart enough to know what to do....but I don't!
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DianE
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 4, 2009 - 8:15 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

YIKES I think I may have spent $400 trying to diagnose that fetlock for nothing!

Let me explain. The farrier came today and we put Hanks front shoes back on. He found a little bruising on his RF sole which doesn't surprise me. When the farrier left I took Hank down to the arena to see if he moved better. OH yes he was bucking, farting, galloping, and leaping through the air... a horrible horned one...my NORMAL Hank! Once he settled down I watched him move and his fronts look great now. I STILL couldn't see anything terribly wrong with the hind end. I put him away and as I was cleaning up around here I kept trying to figure out how he can be so sound with that swelling. He never has been "lame"...in the RH. He flexed clean, everything was clean!!!!! I decided to go have a closer look at it and check for heat after his shennanigans..nothing

It seems to have changed shape a bit so thought I would palpate it, to see if it was getting softer. It is a little bit,so I was feeling around and I found this hard thing sticking out of it...Like a thorn, sticker,stinger...something along those lines. I CAN NOT get it out. He did not seem to mind me digging around at it,but didn't want to get my head kicked either so was carful. The "thing" is stuck right at the very point of the swelling. Would not this explain EVERYTHING! EXCEPT why didn't I feel it before OR why didn't the vet(s) notice it???? could it have been so embedded we missed it and it is working it's way out???? OH I hope that's what it is!!! I took pics to show you but my program quit working...puter's been on the fritz for some reason. If I figure it out I will post pics.

Dr.O. Could this have been the problem? Should I somehow get it out of there...it seems to be working itself out. I am so excited this may not be his suspensory! Good riddance JULY!!!!
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DianE
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 4, 2009 - 9:38 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Ok lets see if I figured this picture thing out


This is a pic of his fetlock where his hair is ruffled is where the "thing" is right at the point of the swelling

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LL
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 5, 2009 - 12:43 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Here's hoping, Diane! Sounds very likely that this is the culprit...
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 5, 2009 - 8:24 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Most of your questions can continue to be answered by answering my last question Diane. As to the reprint from the article you posted in response above, several different conditions are described in there, so is not helpful.

What exactly did the veterinarian say he found? If you are uncertain call him up and write it down and post it here.

As to the pimple above the best way to diagnose it would be to shave the hair from around it so you can examine it better. Have you been wrapping the ankle any since this first occurred?
DrO
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DianE
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 6, 2009 - 8:06 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I had the vet come out yesterday, I called him and told him about the "thing" stuck in his fetlock and he said he couldn't believe he would miss something like that. He came and clipped his fetlock and got the small thorn out. there was no drainage so he doesn't think that was the problem.

There was some serum drainage from it last night and this morning and it does look a little smaller, so time will tell, in the mean time I guess I will remain confused

Thanks
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Vicki Z
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 6, 2009 - 10:01 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Very interesting, Diane!

It doesn't take a very big thorn to cause some pretty big swelling and reaction.

I've had a horse's leg blow up big from less than that.

This goes to show the importance of a thorough exam, including clipping the area in question to see if there is any break in the skin.

Keep us informed.
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DianE
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 6, 2009 - 4:59 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks Vicki...Live and learn, we did feel that fetlock up pretty good, but didn't clip it. If if don't rain I will take pics of it tonight, it continues to "leak" that sticky serum stuff, but no pus or anything infectious looking. Vet doesn't think it is related to his swelling. I'm not sure, but if it keeps going down now I would highly suspect it. Vet said the swelling will probably be there for 6-12 mos. My biggest fear is "blowing" his suspensory. I had a LONG talk with the vet about it yesterday and I am still confused

It does appear to be a bit smaller I think. Vet said he had swelling/inflammation around his lateral suspensory...which was pushing the sesamoid bone out. I again asked "shouldn't he at least be a bit sore and not look sound"???? he said that is the confusing part of the whole thing. The vet I use is young and not full of experience. I asked him if had ever seen and/ or treated a swelling of this sort...NO. Had he ever treated suspensory injury period....NO. SOOOO don't know what to think or really how to proceed. IF that swelling goes away or way down in the next few days, I have to suspect the thorn.
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rtrotter
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 6, 2009 - 5:19 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane,

Let's hope this was the problem all along. The fact that stuff is still draining from it is a good sign.

Do you have any Icthamol, if yes, put a dab of it right where the hole is. This should draw out any goop thats still in there.

If you have any rolled gauze and gauze pads. Put some Icthamol on a square gauze pad and place it over the hole than wrap the rolled gauze over the pad lightly and use some vetwrap to hold the whole thing in place. When you take is off whatever the seepage is will be in the gauze pad, and hopefully your fetlock will look normal.

I really hope this is it and Hank can get off his vacation and go back to work.

Rachelle
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DianE
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 6, 2009 - 7:34 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks Rachelle, I did wrap it with icthamol, can't hurt might help!. I rode him tonight...vet said I could walk, trot on level ground. He felt pretty good...maybe a bit stiff in RH....but was very willing to trot.

Pics


Hard to tell with the shave job, but I do think it looks smaller
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Vicki Z
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 6, 2009 - 8:58 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

One thing that I have learned with swelling in the lower leg area is that once it is there it can be very hard to get it to go down.

Strenuous massage a couple of times daily with Witch Hazel helped to finally get the stubborn swelling out of Lance's rear legs last year.

Also, exercise and moving around if this is allowed.

Hope it resolves satisfactorily, Diane.
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DianE
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Posted on Friday, Aug 7, 2009 - 3:26 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

DrO Yesterday I rode Hank in the very flat arena..mostly walk, a little trot to see how he felt. I could feel something in his RH, a slight stiffness is the best I can describe it.

From my post above you can see what the vet said it was when he came out and examined his fetlock and shaved it.

Here's what I got out of him
from above
Vet said he had swelling/inflammation around his lateral suspensory...which was pushing the sesamoid bone out. I again asked "shouldn't he at least be a bit sore and not look sound"???? he said that is the confusing part of the whole thing. The vet I use is young and not full of experience. I asked him if had ever seen and/ or treated a swelling of this sort...NO. Had he ever treated suspensory injury period....NO. SOOOO don't know what to think or really how to proceed. IF that swelling goes away or way down in the next few days, I have to suspect the thorn.

As you can see I am dealing with inexperience, no one understands more than I that people have to get experience somewhere, but this is one of the reasons I don't trust his judgement completely.(but is all I have)

When I was done with Hank I cold hosed his leg for awhile, then wrapped it with cotton with icthamol and covered with vet wrap.

I took the wrap off this morning and went to work. I just went out and checked it and the heat is back(on a scale of 1-5 I'd rate it a 3). This is why I am so confused and don't know what to do. The vet says to ride/work him lightly. I don't want to make this thing worse (whatever it is) He is NOT lame on it in pasture, walk, trot,canter look good. Ridden walk, trot felt off a bit at first, but he seemed to work out of it and be fine. I only rode him for 10 mins. at the most....He was VERY willing. I haven't rode him since the 5th of July, so don't know if that "stiffness could be related to that.

At liberty or on lunge line he looks good, the heat hadn't returned. He works a lot harder at liberty than when I rode him, but with me and my saddle it probably added 150#'s

Could wrapping it have made it have heat? It was not tight.

Can a horse have inflammation around the suspensory that pushes the sesamoid bone out???? For some reason I have a hard time picturing this, especially with basically no lameness.

I just don't want to make things worse, even tho the vet says ride him...on flat ground walk, trot.

He can have the rest of the year off if that's what it will take, but I don't know how to gauge this since he isn't lame?

Help! Thanks
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rtrotter
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Posted on Friday, Aug 7, 2009 - 3:59 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane,

In my experience, any time you put any type of bandage on a horse, heat is created. Even if it is only the heat generated by the horse that the bandage keeps in. Icthamol is a heat generating ointment, but its meant to do that so it can draw out what ever is in the leg.

I usually do not judge for heat until I get done done exercising, bathing and cooling out my horse. And the best way to feel for it is to hose with cold water and wait a few minutes. Then you can really tell if you have a heat/inflamation problem. I have also found this to be true with feet as well. I used to drive myself nuts feeling my horses feet first thing in the morning before they did anything, but if I waited until after I was done in most cases their feet were ice cold.When I did feel heat at that point I knew there was a problem and most likely the horse was sore or acting funny.

I watched some of the earlier videos of Hank and I thought he was off in the right rear, but he seemed to work out of it. It may just be that the fill comes down so there is not so much pressure and then it feels better, so he doesn't show the stiffness.

I'm sure this will solve itself over the next few weeks and you won't have to give him the rest of the year off.

Rachelle
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DianE
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Posted on Friday, Aug 7, 2009 - 7:37 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Rachelle, his wrap had been off for about 6 hrs. I didn't feel for heat when I took it off, I don't think I don't think real well that early in the morning.

He had been standing around the lean all day because of torrential rains. I left them out in the pasture when I got home and he moved very nicely. I just brought them up and the heat has gone down a lot. Gave him a bute....just in case there is some lingering inflammation going on.

I just don't like guessing my way through this. Riding him doesn't seem right and I don't want to ruin him for life....yet if he truly can be ridden that would be great. I guess I will just have to play it by ear

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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 11, 2009 - 3:14 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hello DianeE,
There is no ligament underneath this sesamoid, it articulates directly with the back of the bones of the fetlock. There are ligaments that cover the outside that may swell giving the bone the appearance of swelling.

Since there is so much question about what is going on I cannot pretend to be able to give good advice. But I will recommend you be conservative and approach treatment from the most serious diagnostic possibility's stand point.
DrO
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DianE
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 11, 2009 - 4:38 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks Dr.O. I think I'm just going to let him be a pasture potato until that swelling goes away I guess...if it ever does go away!
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DianE
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 12, 2009 - 3:35 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

HMMMM just as I have pretty much given up on Hank for this year.

His swelling looks like it has gone down a lot this morning....maybe there is hope
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DianE
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Posted on Monday, Aug 17, 2009 - 9:02 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dr.O. this swelling is just weird! Hank seems to remain pasture sound.

The vet called this morning because he had been thinking about Hanks problem all weekend...it really is bothering him, more than me I think!

He said OK so we have done the rule outs NO suspensory lesions....NO fractures. He wanted to know if that scab was still on the back of his fetlock...I said yes...it oozes occasionally just a tiny drip of serum looking stuff then scabs up again. He said he wonders if there isn't some kind of infection in there from something. HMMM with some thought I told him when I wrapped it it got hotter and he thought that could also be a sign of infection. He wants me to try a 10 day course of antibiotics....I will not give pencillion since I had a horrible reaction to it

He said the top choice would be baytril
the 2nd choice tribrissen.. Now in a way this makes sense to me, but would oral antibiotics be able to reach an infection in the fetlock if it was from something poking him there? The "thorn" was removed.

Before I spend another $100 on this I would like your opinion please!

Thanks
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rtrotter
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Posted on Monday, Aug 17, 2009 - 9:40 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane,

I find it hard to believe that the scab is still on there. This was small so should have healed up mostly by now. The still oozing thing bothers me as well. This leads me to think that there is some sort of encapsulated infection at that spot. I say encapsulated because the rest of the leg is not filled and as far as I can tell from your posts, no elevated temperatures that might show a systemic infection.

As far as oral antibiotics, they are quite useful. My mare eats her SMZ pills in her breakfast and dinner with no problems. I think the tribrissen is an oral suspension which means you just have to shoot it down his throat. All the better.

Just watch his poop, you don't want to wind up with another problem on top of this one.

Rachelle
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DianE
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Posted on Monday, Aug 17, 2009 - 12:03 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Rachelle that's why I wondered if antibiotics would help...if it is a walled off type of infection I don't think it would. I know they don't help abscess of the hoof. I was suppose to pick it up today but I am a little hesitant. Decided to research it a little more and get Dr.O.'s opinion first. I need to take another picture too sometimes it looks like it is much smaller and sometimes it don't. I don't know if it is because I see it all the time OR it actually does go up and down. He is VERY sound out in the pasture, I haven't tried riding him again tho until I know what I'm dealing with.

I asked the vet if that didn't work then what, he said 6 mos. stall rest! I understand stall rest for a suspensory injury, but I don't understand stall resting a horse who is sound, has no heat there, just a weird swelling!
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rtrotter
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Posted on Monday, Aug 17, 2009 - 2:32 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane,
Sometime I think that vet's give the stall rest advice when they do not have an answer. It seems all ills are solved by stall rest(not).

I have a 16 year old cat, that had something on his side for years. It never bothered him and I monitored it just about every day. It stayed the same size. One day after I felt it, it looked like it was getting larger and it looked like I was going to have to take him to the vet (At his age I thought cancer). I do not know what possessed me but I decided to squeeze it, lo and behold it popped and a whole bunch of pus and goop came out. I treated it with triple antibiotic ointment for a few days and it completely went away. You can still feel where it was, but it is much smaller than it was when I first discovered it and it doesn't bother him at all.

The fact that there is still something coming out of the hole tells me its not done draining yet. I wonder if the vet can flush it out with an antibiotic solution so it can heal from the inside out, or maybe get a culture of the fluid, so you can find out what antibiotics would work to clear it up. Or maybe you could do what I did to the cat and squeeze it and put triple antibiotic ointment on it (Just kidding).

Rachelle
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Vicki Z
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Posted on Monday, Aug 17, 2009 - 2:44 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

If it is still draining with some swelling there might still be a fragment left in there.

I would be washing and hosing this area very, very vigorously twice daily with a Nolvasaan solution.

Once swelling sets into lower legs too, it can just plain take a good long while to get the swelling out.

I have treated a tiny puncture wound that resulted in significant swelling with twice daily Tribrissen and twice daily topical treatment as described above with very good success.
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DianE
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Posted on Monday, Aug 17, 2009 - 4:00 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks Vicki and rachelle...I wouldn't call it "draining" it trickles every once in awhile...like every 4 days then scabs up again
It sure hasn't gone down much...there is no more heat hasn't been for quite sometime except when I wrapped it that one day...He is as sound as Hank gets...so I really don't know what to think...nor does my vet.
Pics from tonight...I had already put some drawing salve on the scab so you can't really see it...but it looks about the same as it did in the pics above.

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Vicki Z
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Posted on Monday, Aug 17, 2009 - 4:40 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane -- It is so weird looking. Does the swelling extend up the leg bone effecting the definition as it appears it may, or is it localized?
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DianE
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Posted on Monday, Aug 17, 2009 - 4:58 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Vicki, it is the strangest "swelling" I have seen in all my years. It is VERY localized it hasn't moved up or down the leg. Nothing seems to make it better OR worse...except when I wrapped it, the swelling didn't change, but it really did pick up some heat...which was completely gone by the next day. It is VERY hard...like bone and surrounding the hard "swelling" is has just a touch of edema around the whole thing... Just the outside portion of his fetlock is affected the other side is normal...Which I guess suggests sesamoid bone here's a pic from the back you can see it is just localized to the outside.


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DianE
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Posted on Monday, Aug 17, 2009 - 7:28 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

OK so now I have been reading about parasites since Aileens thread and came across a fetlock that looked like Hanks...especially the first pic could this be Habronemiasis or would it be raw by now? I just dewormed him with Ivermectin Sat. The last time was in Feb then he went to a daily de-wormer. I have removed the daily.

http://www.calypsofarmeventers.com/tuckers_blog
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 18, 2009 - 3:03 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

No this does not look like habronemiasis which starts out as a open sore.

If the swelling is the subcutaneous tissues and not the suspensory/sesamoid unit trauma and/or foreign body irritation would be most likely. Generally if you have infection you have puss though abscesses can ooz serum before the puss pocket breaks out. Abscesses are generally very painful however. With infection is present I try to treat local problems locally and systemic problems systemically.
DrO
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Vicki Z
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 18, 2009 - 12:22 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

A friend of mine got kicked in the arm by a horse and it was taking forever for the injury to completely heal with swelling and hardness and not much of an opening, some drainage. Eventually a splinter type of object worked its way out that must have literally been kicked in underneath her skin. Once the foreign object came out the healing process finally began so it still took a while.

I wonder if there was some source of trauma combined with the insertion of a foreign object?

Sometimes insect bites can leave a hard swelling for a long, long time and sometimes Lance has encapsulated and later ejected strange looking unknown objects (once the object was like an irregularly shaped rock) that exited out through the skin while other times the object has stayed put under the skin causing a bump. He has a couple of objects still under his skin a few years later that were determined to be pieces of stick via an aspiration biopsy.

While this case is quite peculiar I have a feeling that it will resolve but it may just take some time and meanwhile you need to watch it closely for any signs of developing infection or cellulitis.

Let us know, Diane, how this progresses.
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DianE
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 19, 2009 - 3:11 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dr.O. have you ever seen a suspensory or tendon type injury create this type of swelling?

Thanks
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DianE
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 19, 2009 - 3:49 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Well a new "symptom" has popped up and the "thing" looks different. I was brushing Hank tonight and started brushing his fetlock with a very soft body brush...he was enjoying it VERY much...twisting his lip liked it itched. As I was brushing it blood started coming out the bottom of it there wasn't a scab or anything there. After closer examination I noticed the "thing" looks different it looks like it has something sticking out of it where the sticker or whatever it was (never was determined) was stuck. Looks like a little pimple there.

I kept brushing the lump and blood would drip out of the bottom...hard to describe so got my camera and took a pic...which actually turned out good for once...Opinions? I sure would like to get to the bottom of this.


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Julie Masner
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 19, 2009 - 5:49 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Sure looks as if something is stuck in there. How did you resist "picking" at that?
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DianE
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 19, 2009 - 6:24 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

LOL I did pick at it, but remember this is a hind fetlock, I know Hank would never kick at me on purpose, but I couldn't quite guarantee myself he wouldn't if it hurt. To really get at it I have to be directly behind him and low...guess I could wear a helmet! He actually seems to enjoy me picking at it or brushing it, he sticks his lip out and makes those funny faces, like when you scratch an itchy spot. I really can't seem to get at the "thing" sticking out. The "thing" really doesn't seem to have any pain associated with it as far as palpation. Hank is a bit of a wimp when it comes to pain so easy to read in that aspect.

I hadn't even touched the spot that started bleeding...it just let loose when I was brushing down on his "lump". So I pushed down on the lump with my hand and a little more blood came out below...It has to be related somehow.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 20, 2009 - 3:43 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Yes I have had unilateral periosteal reactions, sesamoiditis, and sesamoid fractures that resemble the location and appearance of the above swelling. But location and appearance are not diagnostic as subcutaneous reactions and tumors might also have this appearance.
DrO
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Sara Wolff
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 20, 2009 - 6:10 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Oh, I hope nothing as serious sounding as what Dr.O says. I was looking at it and wondering about the "something stuck in there" theory. Is he still really ouchy here? Hope you get it figured out, Diane. Maybe you should get an x-ray to rule some things out?
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rtrotter
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 20, 2009 - 6:10 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane,

Are you still putting drawing salve on this? If so, I would continue, it might be doing what its supposed to do.

I was going to tell this story along with the cat story I posted above but, did not want to get to carried away with too many stories in one post, so I will relate it here.

About 20 years ago, a friend of mine was taking care of a horse whose pastern kept filling up ( in the heel area. The horse was sound, but the swelling was very annoying. They xrayed, ultrasounded, treated with antibiotics, and basically did everything humanely possible to get the fill out. Nothing worked. As a last resort they sweated it for a week with Icthamol they removed and redid the leg every day. At the end of the week when they pulled off the bandage there was a worm in the dressing. They could not believe it. This was something that had been going on for at least a year. As soon as the worm popped out, the fill and swelling left, never to return and the horse continued in its racing career.

I don't know if you can make a cause and effect relationship to your daily wormer versus rotational worming program, or if its even possible that this is an encysted worm, I would be very curious to know exactly what this is.

Also, I am not sure if what I am seeing is an artifact in the picture, but if you look closely right at the bottom of the picture in the heel area where the bulbs come together, I see two tiny white spots that look very similar to what's on his fetlock.

I sure hope you get to the bottom of this, you really do have some weird things go on with your horses.

Rachelle
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Vicki Z
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Username: vickiann

Post Number: 1334
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Thursday, Aug 20, 2009 - 10:06 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I see the two bumps that Rachelle is talking about and wonder whether that could be a reaction from a spider bite (or two ant bites?) but I suppose they could also be whatever the upper one is.

Cannot help but thinking the top pimple like thing is a physical reaction in response to whatever is going on in this entire area and very interesting that when you press the upper strange thing that there is bleeding below, which certainly implies to me that this is all connected. It begs the question, is there something under the skin that moves around under there in response to the upper thing being pushed on and the movement/pressure causes the bleeding below?

That Hank likes you to rub the area may imply that he is feeling some physical discomfort on account of whatever is going on here, which is relieved by placing pressure on it.

Either something in there or the remains of a reaction from something having been in there?

I would be inclined to continue to rub and clean this area and perhaps apply some kind of softening agent around the upper thing wondering whether an object (either a foreign object or collection of dead tissues?) will eventually pop out.
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DianE
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 4757
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Thursday, Aug 20, 2009 - 1:52 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

HMMM Dr.O. with the things you described above was there lameness present? I know you can't diagnose Hank...NOBODY can, but was just wondering what your experience was as far as lameness was concerned.

Sara I did have x-rays taken..not digital, the bone looked good...we could see the inflammation around it. Same with the US...another relic, but the vet seemed certain the tendons and ligaments looked fine...inflammation present there to tho.

I think the 2 spots further down is sawdust, I had just bedded the lean-to....not sure tho so will check that when I go out.(it was sawdust)

He has absolutely no pain response to palpation, even when the vet did it. It itches tho it seems.

He is galloping in the pasture and looks wonderful at all gaits....dunno. I may try a short ride at walk in the arena this weekend
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Vicki Z
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Username: vickiann

Post Number: 1337
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Thursday, Aug 20, 2009 - 3:33 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane,

From what I am reading there is something going on there but is seems to me to be now localized, perhaps encapsulated, and hopefully not serious nor something that will not resolve itself as long as you monitor for setbacks or possible infection issues.
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Erika L
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Username: erika

Post Number: 1871
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Thursday, Aug 20, 2009 - 5:34 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

If it were me, I'd bute Hank, rub some Ambesol around the "thingy": and then get out the tweezers and give that thing a pull. I almost can't resist picking at the picture, for gosh sakes!
How can you resist picking it out to take a look?
But don't do it after lunch, never know what that thing will look like when you see the entire thing! But then, I watch too much Discovery TV.
Erika
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DianE
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 4759
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Thursday, Aug 20, 2009 - 6:05 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks Vicki, I guess at this point there is nothing else I can do other than try the antibiotics. I started this thread July 8th and there has been absolutely no change in this thing in about 6 weeks or better.

Erika I did pick at it! Last night I put icthamol on it again...without the wrap, it softened up a bit and the "thing" is indented again. I don't think it is possible to pull the whole "thing" out at once, if indeed there is more. It seems to be working itself out in spurts.

I thought maybe tonight it would be smaller since that blood came out and it seemed to open up a little, but if anything it looks BIGGER!

I just wish I knew what I was dealing with, he looks so so sound out in pasture. I would love to ride him, but with the unknown there I really am afraid to. I guess a little walk, trot may tell me if he is off on it, because I certainly don't see any lameness just watching him.

Dr.O. do you have any other thoughts on diagnostics? We have US and x-rayed and flex tested and palpated all with negative results. Blocks wouldn't help because he isn't lame With the machines my vet uses I'm not sure they would catch a small fracture...but my vet is confident and that's all I can go by I guess. If this thing isn't looking any better next week I guess I my as well try the tribrissen. I just hate using antibiotics if they aren't needed, but how do I determine if they are...just getting a little frustrated with the whole not knowing what it is. I don't want to make him lame if indeed it is soft tissue or bone and not the "thing" sticking out.
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DianE
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 4760
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Friday, Aug 21, 2009 - 3:49 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hank is definitely uncomfortable this morning in his RH. I don't feel any heat(which I find strange), but it does look as if the swelling is bigger. I guess maybe I'll try locking him in the old mares stall/paddock area and see if rest improves it (if he doesn't go nuts)

He is weight shifting behind and trying to get the weight off the RH...subtle, but there and I don't want it to get worse. He has no DP so I don't suspect laminitis or hooves. Maybe this lump is finally going to tell me what it is.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
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Username: dro

Post Number: 23619
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Friday, Aug 21, 2009 - 3:52 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane, there are two components of a diagnosis: the tissue affected and the pathology affecting the tissue. If the radiographs are normal and if examination cannot indentify which tissues are swollen and why, your best shot is a good ultrasound with should be able to identify the swollen tissue and to some degree the nature of the swelling.
DrO
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Vicki
Member
Username: kpaint

Post Number: 207
Registered: 3-2009
Posted on Friday, Aug 21, 2009 - 9:35 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Wow, Diane. Hank sure puts you through the wringer. The thingy makes me want to lance it! Hope it works out soon.
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DianE
Member
Username: scooter

Post Number: 4761
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Friday, Aug 21, 2009 - 1:07 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dr.O. we got as good as US as we are going to get I am afraid It did show congestion in there, but nothing specific.

I talked to the vet this morning and told him of the new developments. He still thinks Tribissen is something I should try, so I opted for SMZ-TMP tabs instead...much cheaper. BUT then he had a hard time figuring the dosage for a 1000# horse he settled on 10 tabs twice a day...I hope thats right! I am locking him up in the paddock, starting smz's and going to sweat it....hopefully it will start to resolve.

Does that dosage of SMZ's sound right??? I didn't like that he had to use a caculator to figure it out....Later he called me and said he talked to one of his proffesors and he said 18 pills a day would be better...confused again! Don't want to overdose the poor guy so I decided on a happy medium of 12....sigh don't want to under dose either.
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Julie Masner
Member
Username: juliem

Post Number: 630
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Friday, Aug 21, 2009 - 1:23 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

For what it's worth, my vet had me do ten twice a day for my 900 pound two year old and three twice a day for my 260 pound weanling. Seems as if one per hundred pounds twice a day would be about right. I bet Dr. O has the info in the medications article.
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rtrotter
Member
Username: rtrotter

Post Number: 344
Registered: 4-2008
Posted on Friday, Aug 21, 2009 - 1:42 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane,

I am glad you went the SMZ route. I think you will have good results. My horse weighs about the same as Hank, and she gets 12 pills 2 times a day. Total of 24 pills a day. To date I have had very little problems using SMZ pills, but watch for loose stools and diarrhea. You should not have to close him in unless thats the only way the other horses won't eat his feed.

Rachelle
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PattyB
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Username: pattyb

Post Number: 219
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Friday, Aug 21, 2009 - 1:54 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Diane.

I've been following your discussion with as much puzzlement as you have.....yikes, what could it be is right.

I've had good luck with the SMZ's and currently have Ziggy on 7 twice a day for a kick wound in an area that wouldn't hold stitches well---->right below the right elbow. I only give on the vet's advice but keep a bottle of them here for easy access once I have the go ahead.

Good luck, if I had to guess, I think an antibiotic may solve the problem.
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Vicki Z
Member
Username: vickiann

Post Number: 1338
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Friday, Aug 21, 2009 - 2:47 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I think that the potential benefits of the antibiotics outweigh the downside, but if this was my horse I would continue the cleaning and rubbing locally, twice daily. There is no substitute for proper external treatment, in my humble opinion.

Good luck, Diane.
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DianE
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 4762
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Friday, Aug 21, 2009 - 2:53 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks I need to trust my vet more! He is a good guy and very puzzled by Hank's fetlock...He is starting to think the same as us, that maybe it is a infection of some sort. I gave him 12 pills tonight. After reading the article I was still confused, then read the posts, Corrine explained it (which really didn't make sense to me) math isn't one of my best subjects. Vet really wants me to go with 18 pills 2x's a day after talking to his professor, and said it is very safe for horses. Reaction rates are very very low...but this is Hank!

His Lump is sore to the touch tonight...he didn't want me messing with it and kept pulling his leg away when I touched the "lump" part of it. When I touched around it he didn't care...I hope that thing explodes with puss ECKK! I told the vet that and he said he did too, but the secretarys were a bit grossed out.
It eases my mind very much to hear that's what you guys are giving your horses too and the dosage seems right. THANK YOU

Rachelle I am keeping Hank penned up right now because it rained(hard to believe) and our hills can get slick with the mud, so just playing it safe in case it is a soft tissue injury. So he is tucked in with hay and icthamol on his fetlock. I hope this thing starts resolving I don't have much riding weather left! I finally have an arena and can't use it
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Vicki Z
Member
Username: vickiann

Post Number: 1339
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Friday, Aug 21, 2009 - 3:41 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

How I hope that this improves for Hank.

If it gets very touchy though, Diane, that could be cellulitis, which needs very aggressive IV antibiotic treatment if it should set in.
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DianE
Member
Username: scooter

Post Number: 4763
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Friday, Aug 21, 2009 - 4:38 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

VickiZ!!! You should know not to get me worried about other things. Now I have to go read the cellulitis article!

I just went out and gave them a leaf of hay for the rest of the night, he really is very sore to touch right on the lump, I HOPE this isn't a soft tissue or bone injury, because worsening wouldn't be a good sign. Not sure about infection, I did feel a little heat right on the lump...nothing around it, the tendons seem cool...off to read about cellulitis
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Lilo
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Username: lilo

Post Number: 1205
Registered: 4-2000
Posted on Saturday, Aug 22, 2009 - 5:08 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane - all I can say is: Good luck! It would be great if there was something inside there that the body is trying to get rid off, and it would work its way out. Give you both a diagnosis and Hank some relief!
All the best,
Lilo
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DianE
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 4767
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Saturday, Aug 22, 2009 - 6:37 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Here is todays development...that lump is HOT. The surrounding tissue seems normal. He doesn't want me touching the lump, but I can touch all around it without a response.

I cold hosed it, gave him a bute, handwalked...he still seems sound, he even offered up a trot and looked fine. The lump hasn't grown anymore or hasn't gotten smaller. The vet told me to put a good tight wrap on the lump everyday for awhile...so I did...He didn't enjoy that much, I hope I am able to keep my head intact through this.

He is eating his SMZ's fine, hog horses do come in handy sometimes. I was going to take a pic this morning before wrapping, but the icthamol was still sticking to it, so will do it tonight when the wrap comes off. I hope the darn thing is smaller and cooler! I wish I knew what the heat in the lump indicated...I guess since surrounding tissue is cool that's a good sign.
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Vicki Z
Member
Username: vickiann

Post Number: 1340
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Saturday, Aug 22, 2009 - 7:09 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Good grief, Diane!

Keep us informed.

Hoping for a good resolution before too long.
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rtrotter
Member
Username: rtrotter

Post Number: 345
Registered: 4-2008
Posted on Saturday, Aug 22, 2009 - 2:11 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane,

If this is an abcess trying to pop, or Hanks system trying to expel something, you may be doing treatments that are contraindicated.

I know you are trying to keep him comfortable, thus the bute and the hosing, but that takes the inflammation down and what you want to do is make this thing pop. That's the reason you are using the Icathamol, that is going to generate the heat you feel at the lump site. I would be washing with warm water and keeping it wrapped, as the vet said.

I would also be prepared for a big mess when it finally does pop. I think there may be an open channel between where the pimple is and where the blood is coming out and the infection may be trying to travel down the channel and out the leg.

This also may be something he needs to stay on antibiotics for quite some time, so its a good thing he is a hog with his food.

As far as the dosage on the pills go. 18 pills twice a day seems excessively high to me ( for his weight) unless the pills are a lower dosage. Does the bottle say double strength on it?

I hope this thing resolves quickly this has been going on for a long time.

Rachelle
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DianE
Member
Username: scooter

Post Number: 4769
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Saturday, Aug 22, 2009 - 4:38 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Rachelle there in lies the problem, I don't know if this is an abscess trying to pop or a walled off type infection OR a tendon/ligament/bone It wouldn't be good for heat to be there in any of the other choices! It is the double stength SMZ's I am giving him 12.

It dried up enough for him to go out this afternoon and I took a video of him coming up for his hay tonight...he sure can move/buck. Wuss boy won't normally break into a trot if he has any pain anywhere. I also took pics when the wrap came off...I THINK it looks smaller and the heat was gone I hope I don't have my rose colored glasses on again.





Video of Hank and Sam coming in for supper, Hank is the bucky one on the inside. He has 1 gram of bute at 7 this morning..video is 12 hrs. after the bute about.
http://picasaweb.google.com/hank97/20090822#5372945359510622834
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Ann
Member
Username: dres

Post Number: 2463
Registered: 10-2000
Posted on Saturday, Aug 22, 2009 - 5:02 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

can you shave his whole fetlock clean?? Like a number 1? might be easier to see if?

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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DianE
Member
Username: scooter

Post Number: 4770
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Saturday, Aug 22, 2009 - 5:20 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Ann all my clipper blades are dull from trying to shave Sams hair.

BOY I really am starting to lose my mind I was looking at the pictures above and thought WOW in the 1st pic his fetlock looks normal HOW CAN that be?? It took awhile but it finally occured to me it was his left leg.

Here is a pic of his RH fully loaded
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DianE
Member
Username: scooter

Post Number: 4772
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Sunday, Aug 23, 2009 - 6:58 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

OK so Hanks RH fetlock and pastern has a red glow to it. The very tip of the lump is hot. He has hair loss on his pastern and it is red. I don't believe this is from wrapping it as I only wrapped the lump. I don't think it is from to much water because I have only cold hosed it once in weeks. I don't think it if from meds because I only cover the lump.His other leg doesn't have the reddish glow. It looks as if there MIGHT be some puss coming out of the tip of the lump...not sure tho, he will not let me touch that area and I don't want my head kicked!

SOOO I must bombard you with more pics to see if anyone has any ideas of what the red glow and hair loss is coming from???


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DianE
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Username: scooter

Post Number: 4773
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Sunday, Aug 23, 2009 - 7:01 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

His other fetlock for comparison
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rtrotter
Member
Username: rtrotter

Post Number: 346
Registered: 4-2008
Posted on Sunday, Aug 23, 2009 - 8:45 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane,

I think what you may be seeing here is a reaction to the Icathamol. I'd try putting some diaper rash ointment everywhere except the lump.

If you are washing the icathamol off every day its getting into his heels and creating the problem. When you sweat the lump the moisture has to go somewhere and it runs down the leg into the heel.

I have had this happen to me and you have to watch that you do not create a whole other problem because of the irritation.

Rachelle
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Jo Ann J
Member
Username: jowidner

Post Number: 525
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Sunday, Aug 23, 2009 - 8:48 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane, I have been following along but haven't had much to say. Heat, redness, swelling and pain are all hallmarks of inflammation. But of course, the $64 question is what is driving the inflammation? I'm glad that Hank is on the SMZs. This sure is acting like a foreign body.

One request. Could you start a new thread? This one is taking forever to load on my computer. Thanks!
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DianE
Member
Username: scooter

Post Number: 4774
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Sunday, Aug 23, 2009 - 9:58 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks, Rachelle I have used icthamol twice, yesterday I just wrapped the lump with vet wrap with no meds. Yesterday is also the first time I have wrapped it since further up the thread. It is a funny coincidence(OR is it) that this does always coincide with wrapping...more heat, and the lump is bigger the next day. I left the wrap on for just a few hours yesterday. Last night I did not apply anything to it. He was sore this morning again and I couldn't touch the darn thing! So no wrap or ointment today. He IS VERY VERY touchy about it and that has just come about in the last few days, before he could care less what we did to it. If you look at the pics from last night you can see it wasn't as "angry" looking and all his hair was there...this seems to have happened overnight!

Jo Ann I was trying not to start another thread...I'm always so long winded about everything! But for you I will, because I like all the input I can get. My next update I will start another thread...UNLESS the darn thing goes away overnight... I will talk to my vet tomorrow he said he was real tempted to come out and stick a needle in it! That's didn't sound too good when he mentioned it, but now I am wondering. I would THINK if this was a ligament/tendon/bone he would show at least a LITTLE lameness. Hank has always had issues in the hindend so FWIW he is moving as good or better than he ever has!
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Vicki Z
Member
Username: vickiann

Post Number: 1342
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Sunday, Aug 23, 2009 - 4:10 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Diane,

It seems to me that Hank is trying very hard to heal this problem.

Your Vet aspirating a sample may or may not be helpful.

I think that this is going to take the time that it is going to take to clear up, but because you are a vigilant horse owner, I believe that you ultimately will have a good outcome.

After nearly a year Lance still has a spot next to his tail where there was something going on under the skin, which seemed to follow a bad fly bite. It had been infected when he was sick and oozed puss over time before stabilizing, but it still is not entirely resolved after all of this time.

Horses seem to have an ability to close off, localize and limit areas of infection and go on and function if their immune system is strong enough.

I don't know if this funny spot on Lance will ever disappear and today another rider thought that he had an attached tick, but of course, I knew what it was.
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Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose

Post Number: 5242
Registered: 1-2000
Posted on Sunday, Aug 23, 2009 - 4:13 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

rtrotter, you are so smart! I was thinking scratches, but your explanation makes perfect sense.

Diane, we all know the real problem is that your horses just enjoy worrying you to death and things have just been going too smoothly for a while!! Sure hope you get to the bottom of this. It's infuriating, and it's not even my horse!
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Vicki Z
Member
Username: vickiann

Post Number: 1344
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Sunday, Aug 23, 2009 - 4:17 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Interesting . . . Just caught up with reading what Rachelle said, and I too have had Icthammol reactions . . .
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DianE
Member
Username: scooter

Post Number: 4776
Registered: 9-2000
Posted on Sunday, Aug 23, 2009 - 4:38 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Once again a 2nd part.
http://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/4/342002.html
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