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Discussion on Four beat canter | |
Author | Message |
Member: Mbh851 |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 12, 2005 - 7:05 am: I recently looked at a horse for possible purchase who I liked a great deal as far as temperament and experience, and who appeared to be sound, unlike many of the horses I have tried. But..This is a 6 year old 16'3" TB gelding, homebred and still on the same farm. He was broken at 2 1/2 but not worked regularly til 4 given his large size. He has had a lot of dressage in his flatwork, which is what I am primarily interested in doing, and was also trained for hunter competition but is very slightly uneven at the knees at 3'6" and up (not an issue for me!). The only conformation issue is that he is slightly long in the back. There are no known lameness issues but when my trainer reviewed the video I made, she commented that he had a four beat canter which definitely limited her enthusiasm for the horse. I had noted the first time I rode him that the canter was hard to sit initially but that was better the second time. I have not been able to find any specific information on this issue and am trying to learn whether this is likely due to training, conformation, lameness or whether it is more developmental and something that would improve. Linn |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 12, 2005 - 8:49 am: With no visible lameness issues we assume this is a horse with a slow gallop which could be described as a four beat canter although we would need the foot fall pattern to be sure.This might be trained or conditioned to 3 beats or simple collection might correct the problem but if this is not a project you want I would keep looking. Key to your decision is can you tell how the feet on the off lead diagonal is out of sync and can you feel it as you ride, if not you will not be able to "train it out" yourself. With gaited horses I always feel that it is easier to shorten a front foots stride than any other gait modification but the TWH's running walk is very malleable. If the front hits a bit late, just moving your saddle forward may cause it to hit a bit earlier and vice versa. Some with more experience with green dressage prospects in horses that trot may have more experienced advice. DrO |
Member: Mbh851 |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 12, 2005 - 5:34 pm: Thanks DrO. I will be checking with some more experienced dressage riders here but welcome any thoughts from others on this site.Linn |
Member: Paardex |
Posted on Monday, Jun 13, 2005 - 6:13 am: Linn,Experienced dressageriders have always assured me it is much more easy to change or work with a horse with a not to good trot than galop,you need to be a good trainer to be able to handle a not to easy galop. Still you will not find a horse without a fault. Perhaps you could take someone whose riding abilities you trust and who knows how you ride and what you like to ride the horse and help you decide? The fact you didn't like the galop at first when you rode him makes me a bit uneasy. If you get into trouble during training with this you have a good chance to end up with a horse giving a variety of problems when ridden. Hope this is of some help to you Jos |
Member: Canderso |
Posted on Monday, Jun 13, 2005 - 8:30 am: Linn,If you really want to do dressage at a competitive level then you should really keep looking. The horse may be terrific for other disciplines but a four beat canter in dressage is NOT 'a good thing'. Remember, Dressage is about performing all those lovely movements while retaining rhythm, relaxation etc. If rhythm ain't there to start with, you are sunk! Pull out any dressage test. Here is how the judging works: if your horse has a four beat canter, every time you do canter work in competition you will lose marks SIMPLY because the rhythm is not clear. You will also then lose marks in the collective marks under paces. See the impact? (I agree it is not that huge at the lower levels but it quickly becomes important.) If you are talented enough in your riding to hide this problem, then you deserve a better horse. If you are not that talented (and most of us are not), then you won't be competitive. If you are still learning, then why would you want to learn to ride an incorrect gait? Sorry to be blunt, but if you are going to do dressage you need to understand how important this type of fault is. Again, I am not saying the horse is not a good horse - it might be terrific for other disciplines. But I would walk away... Good luck! Cheryl |
Member: Warwick |
Posted on Monday, Jun 13, 2005 - 12:50 pm: Hi LinnIf you want to pursue this horse further, you need to know if he truly does 4 beat in canter naturally or if he simply has been worked incorrectly. If it's the latter, it should be correctable. Throw him on the lunge or lose him to see how he travels naturally. If he demonstrates a clean and clear 3 beat footfall, then you can be pretty sure it's something that you can correct under saddle through correct activation of the hind end and riding the horse so that it is properly through. |
Member: Mbh851 |
Posted on Monday, Jun 13, 2005 - 12:53 pm: Jos and Cheryl,Thanks to you both for your input. What you are saying reinforces what I have heard from others. Blunt is good; I have a tendency to be too optimistic and assume that there is a fix for every problem. Sometimes there isn't. Linn |
Member: Dres |
Posted on Monday, Jun 13, 2005 - 1:50 pm: Actually you can help the trot by riding correctly, the canter is more difficult to 'fix'. When looking for a dressage prospect, you will hear comments about a lovely canter or the trot is not so good but I can help that.. if a canter is not so good well then, that prospect will be passed up... The canter IS important in your dressage mount...On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with SPOTS.. |
Member: Cmitch |
Posted on Monday, Jun 13, 2005 - 2:00 pm: My horse had a 4 beatish canter, when I bought him. It looked like his front legs were going somewhere and his back legs were not. This happened, basically, because he was over collected in the front and not using his back or back-end at the canter. I bought him anyway, and, over time, it has gotten much better. I just worked on riding him forward at the canter, and doing a lot of suppling excercises at trot and walk before cantering. I would say go for it, if you like the horse. I am no expert, but it was aproblem that was fixed for me. If he is being lazy he will sometimes revert to it, but you have to ride him forward every time. Good Luck. |
Member: Mbh851 |
Posted on Monday, Jun 13, 2005 - 9:05 pm: Thanks to all of you for your comments. I will let you know how it turns out. I am leaning against going forward but may see if I can arrange to see him lunged or free-lunged to see if that gives me a better idea if it is the horse or the training.I've already learned a lot from the comments and suggestions. Thanks again. Linn |
Member: Canter |
Posted on Tuesday, Jun 14, 2005 - 8:08 am: Linn,I'd like to toss my two cents in as well. By all means, take a look at this prospect again both on and off the lunge and see if you can get a more experienced rider on him to evaluate that canter. But, if you're truly serious about dressage and he does have a 4 beat canter, I agree with the others above(and apparently your trainer)who said walk away. Best of luck as you decide what to do~ |
Member: Maggienm |
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 - 12:16 am: Linn, just another thought. You mentioned this horse was a bit uneven at the knees. If his pelvis is out he would refer his weight to the front and this would offset his knees. This would also account for his 4-beat canter.I had very similar conditions, also my horse swirched leads behind one direction only; I had a chiropractor(licensed)work on him, what a difference! Even the position he carried his neck changed after treatment. He now takes both leads properly with no switching. Be sure to have his spine checked as well. If he has tenderness esp in the loin area he may not be willing to round up consistently. If he has no alignment issues I'd say keep looking also. |
Member: Mbh851 |
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 - 12:49 pm: Thanks again to everyone for their input. It helped me in my decision not to pursue this horse in the end, which was a difficult one for me as he had a large emotional appeal. There were definitely no soundness issues, and he had been carefully looked at for pain, weakness etc because of his uneveness jumping. The four beat canter was not all the time, but was most noticeable when he was more collected or at a slower pace. In the end, the consensus was that he was going to be hard to "put together" and likely to require a lot from the rider to overcome this. I know that I am not at the point where I could count on being able to do that. (I am still trying to put myself together!) He found a good situation with a young hunter rider which is what he was bred and trained to do.And I am still looking. |
Member: Lsweeney |
Posted on Sunday, Oct 9, 2005 - 12:37 pm: I inadvertently taught my horse to do a 4 beated canter. I was young, and it was back in the days where the western horse was supposed to have this slow collected lope. Well, I just made her go slow and she went into this 4 beated thing. It wasn't exactly nice to sit to. Then I read a bunch of dressage books, and learned about getting the horse's rearend under itself, and push the horse into the bit, and amazingly she started doing this beautiful properly collected lope. Just a thought..... |
Member: Mrose |
Posted on Sunday, Oct 9, 2005 - 3:28 pm: ...and a good thought it is, Laurie. I hate seeing horses cantering/loping four beats with their hind ends strung out behind them. |