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Discussion on SPECIAL FEED FOR CUSHINGS/FOUNDER HORSES?

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Bunny Delgado
Member
Username: Wabbit09

Post Number: 15
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Sunday, Jun 19, 2005 - 3:31 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Dr O. My 22 yr old gelding with Cushings has been on a very small amount of Purena Equine Senior Feed. I was advised three yrs ago to limit his grain to only enough to mix in his supplements. He has always been a very easy keeper yet this past winter he has lost a lot of weight and his appetite diminished. He gets clean timothy/grass hay and absolutely no grass. When he first foundered three yrs ago he had been on his normal grass when suddenly he foundered. My vet at that time only treated the founder and looked no further even though nothing in his diet had changed. Then the following yr-two yrs ago, we had just moved and had my gelding in a no grass paddock, as we had kept him in one since his first founder. He suddenly foundered again and my same vet refused to listen to me and do blood tests or consider any possibility of Cushings. I immediately switched back to my original vet from yrs ago who ran blood tests and put him on Pergolide and as far as I am concerned, saved his life. He ended up having abscesses on BOTH his front feet and was in agony for three months, as were we trying to keep up all our spirits and soak and wrap and medicate. Thankfully he pulled through.
During this winter we put him on Probios as my vet said it could increase his appetite and also Cimetidine as he suspected a possible ulcer since he has been on constant low doses of bute for a severe bone spur in front pastern. This seemed to help his appetite, yet he still continued to lose weight. He is on Strongid C2x daily wormer and is wormed at least 2 times yearly with paste wormer.
So, last week my vet was out for spring shots and suggested I try Nutrina Safe Choice feed. He said it is excellent for Cushings/foundered horses-that it has more fat and more complex carbs and that I can gradually get his amount of feed up from 1/4 of a lb coffee can to two full cans-daily. I am excited about this possibility yet am a bit concerned about that much grain.
I have also cut way down on carrots.
Does this sound okay to you and has anyone had experience with Nutrina Safe Choice.
Thanks for any info you can give me.
Bunny
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 13177
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Sunday, Jun 19, 2005 - 9:08 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Bunny can you list the ingredients and their percent of the total makeup of the Safe Choice feed? Also important is for us to know how much he weighs, how much hay he gets, and the dosage of the pergolide.
DrO
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Susan M. Herrick
Member
Username: Quatro

Post Number: 178
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Sunday, Jun 19, 2005 - 9:44 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

HiBunny, Just my 2 cents. But Levi has been on Safe Choice for 3 months, He has grown more sole, and it has helped his feet. I think. . . It could be a combination of lots of things but, it is what is being suggested for Cushing horses in our area. Unfortunately, levi is a pig not a horse, so his weight is great!
good luck
Suz
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Bunny Delgado
Member
Username: Wabbit09

Post Number: 16
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 - 1:42 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Dr O
I will list the guaranteed analysis and the ingredients for Nutrena Safe Choice-
Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein Min 14.0 %
Lysine Min 0.8
Methlonine Min 0.35
L-Threonine Min 0.45
Crude Fat Min 7.0
Crude Fiber Max 15.0
Calcium Min 0.9 Max 1.2
Phosphorus Min 0.75
Copper Min 50 PPM
Selenium Min 0.6 PPM
Zinc Min 160 PPM
Vitamin A Min 3,990 IU/LB
Vitamin D Min 360 IU/LB
Vitamin E Min 100 IU/LB
Biotin Min 0.45MG/LB

Ingredients:
Active Dry Yeast, Hominy Feed, Wheat Middlings, Distillers Grains with Solubles, Wheat Red Dog, Soybean Hulis, Rice Hulls, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Cane Molasses, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Thiamine, Biotin, Folic Acis, L-Lysine, Methionine, Hydroxy Analogue,
Calcium Carbonate, Salt, Manganous Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Ferrous Carbonate, Copper Sulfate, Copper Chloride, Zinc Oxide, Zinc Sulfate, Ethylenediamine Dlhydriodide, Calcium Iodate, Cobalt Carbonate Sodium Selenite, Enteroccocus faeclum Fermentation Preduct dehydrated, Biflidobacterium thermophllum Fermentation Product dehydrated, Manganese Methlonine Complex, Lactobacillus casel Fermentation Product dehydrated copper lysine complex, Zinc Methlonine Complex, Calcium Propionate(a preservative), Sodium Acetate, Citric Acid, Natural and Artificial Flavors added, Calcium Magnesium Montmorrillonite, Cobalt Glucoheptonate, Corn Oil, Mineral Oil, Soybean Oil.

My horse's aprox weight using tape-is 1060, usually aprox 1185. He is fed 3 average size flakes of timothy/grass hay overnight and free choice during day. He's 15.1 hands -deep girth Peruvian body type.

I hope this gives you all the info you need-.
If anyone else out there knows of this feed, please let me know.
Thanks,
Bunny
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Bunny Delgado
Member
Username: Wabbit09

Post Number: 17
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 - 1:43 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dr O-His dosage of Pergolide is 1ML daily.
Bunny
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 13215
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Friday, Jun 24, 2005 - 12:46 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Though the number 2 ingredient (feed hominy) is hulled corn it can't be a large portion of the feed because the protein and fiber are much greater than the corn alone. Usually we try to avoid molasses in feeds for horses that may be insulin resistant but again it is the amount that is important. I like to see a high protein, high fat diet for these horses so this might work for you though more protein might be considered since you feed timothy. Once you get your horses calculated protein up to about 3 lbs a day (take the weight of the feeds fed daily and multiply by the estimated protein content and add the weights together) you can start adding more fat in the form of vegetable oils to the diet till you get him to a moderately thin condition which is where he should stay. You should also check fecals as persistent use of daily Strongid results in parasite resistance.

Lastly I don't see where this change is likely to address the founder so you should consider increasing the pergolide about 0.25 mg every 3 weeks until you see the founder resolve.
DrO
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Bunny Delgado
Member
Username: Wabbit09

Post Number: 18
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Friday, Jun 24, 2005 - 2:22 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

DR O,
I THINK MY RAMBLING POST LED TO CONFUSION. THE LAST TIME HE FOUNDERED WAS 2 YRS AGO, SO HE IS STABLE CURRENTLY. I WILL HAVE THE FECALS CHECKED NEXT WEEK.
THANKS FOR YOUR ADVICE.
BUNNY
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 13220
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Friday, Jun 24, 2005 - 9:25 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thats good Bunny some think the pergolide is part of the reason for the decreased appetite, I think it is pretty typical for Cushingnoid horses.
DrO
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Deborah Coe
Member
Username: hedgehog

Post Number: 3
Registered: 1-2005
Posted on Sunday, Dec 28, 2008 - 12:05 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dr. Oglesby,
I've recently been assigned "Barn Manager" for a small broodmare operation. In the early assessment of the mares I've had to address the issue of founder...finding that one of the mares had the early onset of founder, and is displaying at least two signs of being Cushionoid (long curly hair coat, depression, weight loss). She was treated by a completely reliable vet, and farrier. She had minimal rotation and has abscessed in all four feet. She was on pasture up to 4 hours a day, and feed grass hay. Upon further discovery, she foundered last spring as well with a lot of rotation. She is now being treated for the abscesses and founder with 1gm Bute 1/day (with dramatically decreased pain, Thank God), a product called Remission, and vet recommended Thyrol L. She is off pasture and in a stall (with a cushy shavings bed to lay in), and dry run. She is being fed about 10 lbs. of good quality grass hay 2x/day, and has been wormed with Ivermectin Dec. 14th. (and yes, she had a worm load). She is an 15.2 hand, 20+year old Arabian that currently is about 900-950lbs., showing ribs, and a pot belly. My question is...the vet recommended that she get grass hay ONLY. He specifically suggested no alfalfa for this mare. I'd like to increase her protein and fat levels try to help her gain more weight and energy. I am thinking on the track of introducing beet pulp and rice bran into her diet. Can you suggest a high protein extremely safe feedstuff? And...there was no mention of administering Pergolide. But he is adamant about the Thyrol L. Any difference?
Thanks!
Debbie
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro

Post Number: 22031
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Monday, Dec 29, 2008 - 5:41 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hello Debbie,
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