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Discussion on Throws neck up when trainer tries to straighten to the left | |
Author | Message |
New Member: calgirl |
Posted on Thursday, Jul 12, 2012 - 6:55 pm: I have a 6 year old warmblood that goes to the right well but tosses his neck up when the trainer tries to straighten or bend him to the left. This is a fairly recent issue and has occurred infrequently over the last 2 months but has now increased to the level seen in the video in this link -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CZxAxAW_jk This horse jumps at the 3'7" to 3'9" level like a champ without any issues, his teeth was done by a Master Dentist in early spring and again checked a month or so ago. He goes in a mild Herm Sprenger KK Ultra D ring bit in a Micklem bridle. He has never been lame a day and this is not a temperament issue as this horse has a heart as big as they get. It is clear he hurts somewhere but when we ask him to do carrot stretches in all directions, there are no problems. His saddle is new and is custom fitted to his back. The trainer has looked at it and feels it isn't a saddle issue other than the saddle needs some re-flocking on the underside. The horse has an excellent saddle pad beneath the saddle and is a Thinline/Back on Track combination dressage pad. When we press his back, he doesn't appear to be sore. We have done one accupuncture/chiropractic treatment a couple of months ago and have one scheduled again in 2 weeks plus a massage therapist will go over him next Tuesday. However, I am mystified as to why this issue seems to be getting worse. Can anyone see anything that might be of concern in the video? |
Member: stek |
Posted on Friday, Jul 13, 2012 - 11:45 am: Wow he is not happy to the left for sure. I agree from the look of how he's going it's not behavior, it's a pain/discomfort issue. If the trainer DrOps contact does he still do it? I like that your trainer is using a soft hand and not forcing him into the frame btw.Have you tried just swapping out the bit? Maybe there is some part of it that is pinching or worn weird or something. Does he do that on the lunge in surcingle and sidereins? I would try that just to be sure about saddle fit. When something like this comes up I always try to rule out tack first. If only he could talk, right? Looks like a very sweet guy. |
Member: babychop |
Posted on Friday, Jul 13, 2012 - 12:04 pm: I wonder if he's pinched a nerve or something along those lines. That's what it looks like to me but I'm certainly no expert. Have you thought about having a chiropractor or equine masseuse out to see where he's reactive? |
Member: boots |
Posted on Friday, Jul 13, 2012 - 2:32 pm: Maybe try a different chiropractor since your problems srarted about two months ago when you had him treated by one. Also, could the problem be in his shoulder? He is a very handsome horse! |
Member: boots |
Posted on Friday, Jul 13, 2012 - 2:33 pm: started, sorry |
Member: babychop |
Posted on Friday, Jul 13, 2012 - 3:03 pm: Maybe even have him scanned with infrared camera. And yes, he's lovely.Here's some info on infrared technology: https://www.equineir.com/ |
New Member: calgirl |
Posted on Friday, Jul 13, 2012 - 3:20 pm: Thanks, everyone, for replying. We have tried a multitude of the mildest bits and it doesn't make any difference so it's not a bit issue. Also, changing saddles doesn't make a difference either.On the lunge line, he's better but eventually reaches a point where he lugs a bit so a spasm of some sort could be the issue. I have a certified massage therapist scheduled to work on him Tuesday. She said she sees an "obvious spasm in his rectus capitus laterals (in the neck and goes up to the skull). She also will check out the multifidus muscle (also in the neck) because when this muscle is in spasm, the horse will resist motion in the opposite direction. We shall see.... I am always a little skeptical about the long term benefits of strictly massage but it can't hurt and my dressage buddies swear by it. I'll give it a shot. He also has a July 26th appointment with the veterinarian who does chiropractic and acupuncture at the local equine rehabilitation facility. Unfortunately, I couldn't get in there any earlier. If this doesn't work, my trainer suggested a "bone scan" which identifies "hot spots" in the body. I guess this would be similar to thermal imaging. |
New Member: althaea |
Posted on Friday, Jul 13, 2012 - 4:11 pm: Sometimes before a wolf tooth breaks the surface it causes a very sore spot and now matter what kind of bit is used it will hurt. Six years is a common age for the wolf teeth to erupt. Or there could be an issue with the premolar on the left side. Could also be an issue with the last molar developing hooks and it is cutting him when asked to bend his neck & head. Rider looks stable, saddle fit is ok, I'd bet it is the mouth. Does your trainer have access to a bitless bridle - side pull or something like it to rule out teeth issues. This is definitely a pain reaction. |
Member: canter |
Posted on Friday, Jul 13, 2012 - 4:50 pm: If it is a pain reaction, giving bute for a few days and working him should eliminate the behavior, then take him off bute and see if he does it again. However if it has been going on long enough he may expect the pain and brace himself against what he thinks will happen. I hope you get it figured out. |
Member: babychop |
Posted on Friday, Jul 13, 2012 - 7:25 pm: I like Althea's suggestion - process of elimination - if you start there you can rule out the mouth. That's a start. Can you borrow a bitless bridle for him and try that? Even a bosal (come on, you've seen folks ride W-english, right?) If he doesn't react going to the left there's your answer, if he still does you can probably rule out the mouth.That way you don't have to spend any money before you proceed to the next step in that long list of the process of elimination! |
Member: dres |
Posted on Saturday, Jul 14, 2012 - 9:28 am: nothing to add, other then he looks worth the trouble in finding out what the cause is... betting it will be a long process of elimination tho , sorry .. please keep us up today on your progress ..On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Saturday, Jul 14, 2012 - 9:40 am: Hello calgirl,I disagree with the assessment that the problem is only to the left, you can see the head bobble going to the right and on the straights, they are just not as pronounced or consistent. Let's review, you have a relatively young horse that has never had a day of lameness that is currently perfectly sound on advanced hunter courses but resists (head rears moderately and occasionally a swish of the tail) going on the bit at the trot while doing dressage patterns.... How is he on the lunge line? DrO |
New Member: calgirl |
Posted on Saturday, Jul 14, 2012 - 1:09 pm: I have tons of video on this horse but not any recent footage of him going loosely on a lunge line. I will try to get some footage over this weekend and post it online by Monday. Here is a link to some footage of a double lunge line session with his old trainer. The problem was first starting to manifest itself and she put him in the double lunge line to see if he would react to greater applied and consistent contact in either direction. Here is the link:https://www.youtube.com/my_videos_edit?ns=1&video_id=f_z8HC0mRUI This is footage from his last 3 day. He finished 3rd primarily due to a reduced score in dressage due to the head flip and his rider didn't get a stretch in the trot phase. Not sure if it was rider related as he stretches for the new trainer when asked. I apologize in advance for the irritating music on the videos but that's how I get them from the videographer. Once again, I appreciate all the feedback on this. Was thinking of trying thermal scanning and was wondering what your thoughts would be on that? Dressage - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDScVIgUkfI&feature=plcp Stadium - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoVaETBn0UQ&feature=plcp Cross country - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLRtmjcpYQQ&feature=plcp |
Member: babychop |
Posted on Saturday, Jul 14, 2012 - 2:14 pm: First of all, what a HORSE! This must be so frustrating for you... If you've ruled out the mouth what can thermal imaging hurt! Process of elimination... Best thing to do for that is to keep him relaxed and in a cool stall before the TI tech shows up so any hot spot will show up well. From what I understand a full scan should cost you in the neighborhood of $350 - $500, hope it doesn't run that high but from the ones I've spoken with that's a ballpark figure. |
New Member: althaea |
Posted on Saturday, Jul 14, 2012 - 2:47 pm: My gosh he is one awesome boy! He is truly one of the nicest WBs I've seen in a long while. What is his breed? Trak? Hanoverian? Oldenburg? Whatever he is he is absolutely tremendous!Anyway, back to his issue. First Clue - in the dressage - he reacted when the right lead was asked for. Pain in jaw on the left side - when cued (left rein up went the head. [By the way, he is way overbent for this level of dressage. Much of the time he was way behind vertical. Strung out behind - overbent front. False collection. You need that nose out just a hair ahead of vertical.] Second cue - stadium jumping. Not too bad a run - only a couple of reactions to the cues - most notably when coming into the oxer and the rider was see-sawing on the reins to rate him. Again mouth response. Third clue - Cross Country. He did pretty well here - probably because when he was changing direction the turns were wide and loopy. I honestly saw no signs of lameness, stiffness to either side, or gait issues. I would still say it is face related. Firstly - Check your bridle fit. Probably not an issue but I always take easiest to cure at the top of my checklist. If bridle fit not the problem then on to the Second - run your fore finger along the bottom bars on both sides. Do you feel a sharp point? Some slight swelling? a wolf tooth might be erupting - The most common tooth culprit is the wolf teeth. Wolf teeth are much smaller and sharper than the rest making them very easy to spot. The wolf teeth are located in front of the first molar of the back set of teeth. This area is very close to where the mouth piece of a bit will lay. The bit coming in contact with the wolf teeth can be very painful to a horse. If your horse has wolf teeth a veterinarian can easily remove them. https://www.equinevetservice.com/teeth.htm Check color (is the left side redder than the right?) Has he ever been floated? Don't put your fingers into the mouth to feel for sharp edges - I almost sliced off my finger. Now if it is that he has some sharp edges the reaction might be coming from either side (as the cue for a right lead is given - the right cheekpiece of the bit will lay across the right side of his mouth) See: Introduction » Overview of Equine Dentistry » Anatomy » Function » Hooks and Points » Floating » Incisor Alignment » Wolf Teeth » Plaque » More Info If you cannot make a determination have a vet out to do the thermal imaging - but first have him check his mouth. Not uncommon for a young horse to develop an abscess either. Good luck & keep us posted! |
Member: calgirl |
Posted on Saturday, Jul 14, 2012 - 3:26 pm: Thanks, Althaea. Hap is an awesome boy with a tremendous giving mind. He is a Holsteiner. A big boy (17'1") - but a "Baby Huey" in your pocket follow you around the paddock type of horse. I would clone him, if I could, and give one to everyone who has ever loved a horse.I agree on the over bending in the lunge line video. The new trainer doesn't ride or lunge him that way and hopefully we can make some progress after this issue is identified, treated, and he's had recovery time. I've always been bothered by his slightly gapping mouth (at times) but a veterinarian did the original full blown dentistry work and was very thorough (way beyond simple floating) and didn't see anything on the recheck a month or so ago. I will have someone else take another look again. The breeder is a very good friend of mine and is loaning me her bitless jumping hackamore so we'll give that a shot to see if that makes a difference. His current bridles are very well fitted and comfortable for him. We do not train or use any "gadgets" to achieve collection. You can see from the videos that we do not even use a running martingale in his jumping or cross country as Hap is very adjustable without them although there seems to be a lot of neck action at various points in the course. |
Member: calgirl |
Posted on Friday, Jul 27, 2012 - 12:38 am: Here's the link to today's ride totally bit-less. This horse has never gone in a bit-less bridle before but he settled into it and then displayed the same head tossing behavior going to the left. To the right, he doesn't appear to have that much of an issue.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRQgkC_WNo0 The massage therapist found some sensitivities in these areas but all other areas were fine. SP 1 ( Rectus Capitus Lateralis ) - both sides Zygotic junction - very sensitive She did a poll adjustment Right semi-membranosus - tight Semi-tendinosus - upper attachments tight SP 3 ( Multifidus Cervicis - released) Pelvic on right - gluteus accessirus tight We have an appointment tomorrow with a veterinarian who does chiropractic and acupuncture. Since she works at an Equine Rehabilitation and sports facility, we may progress to thermal imaging thereafter - depending upon her examination and recommendations. Any thoughts or observations based on today's video? |
Member: stek |
Posted on Friday, Jul 27, 2012 - 11:10 am: Well again I have to say I like how your trainer handled it and softened the contact and gave him some rein instead of trying to force him into a frame.They way he's moving looks like the discomfort is in the neck/shoulder. He keeps wanting to pop up into a canter, at the canter does he continue the head tossing? Are you able to free-work him in a round pen to see how he moves? |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Friday, Jul 27, 2012 - 7:10 pm: Hello calgirl,If your horse continues to behave well in a hunter frame but poorly in the dressage frame consider backing up to the hunter frame and then moving more slowly back to the dressage frame. If you continue to believe this is a painful problem, which is not clear from the videos, try a two week course of 1.5 grams of bute twice daily. If pain is the cause you should see some improvement. DrO |
Member: paul303 |
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 31, 2012 - 1:39 am: I agree with Dr.O and Fran. It's time to try a good dose of bute and assess the outcome. Start with the most simplistic theory and eliminate it.There is a good rider on your horse, who rides in a quiet temperate manner. Something is making that head come up, and it's not that rider. I'd try a course of bute and see what happens. Any favorable response to bute, should lead to a vet and a lameness exam with nerve blocks. You have a very nice animal. Well worth the effort. |
Member: calgirl |
Posted on Friday, Aug 3, 2012 - 1:39 pm: UPDATE: Based on the videos, the examining vet thought the issue was either in the left front or right hind leg so we proceeded with a standard lameness examination which included blocking and then moved to x-rays and ultra-sounds. She found no significant/unusual damage to ligamentous structures, joints, or bones but did find coffin joint and pastern joint synovitis with periosteal reaction on the lateral side of the joint in the left front pastern and enlargement of the LH suspensory likely due to overloading which should decrease with time and rest. She decided to double check the LH based on the trainer's evaluation that the "left hind leg appeared to be the weakest".So my boy is stall/paddock confined with no turnout and will be hand walked for the next 30 days or more. We will also proceed with IRAP, Tildren, and shockwave treatments to reduce soft tissue and bony inflammation. No more shows/jumping for the remainder of the year to be on the safe side and we will start slowly back in dressage once the inflammation goes down. |
Member: dres |
Posted on Friday, Aug 3, 2012 - 3:32 pm: slow and steady wins the race here ....On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |