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Christine Dye
Member
Username: Tdye

Post Number: 8
Registered: 1-2003
Posted on Tuesday, Jun 28, 2005 - 12:42 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dr. O,

I have two, ihmo, very good lameness vets that are at a loss as to my horses issue. I have a mare that in the past has had a very on/off lameness. The lameness appears as a stiffness when working to the right at a trot. There is no change in her gait, just a pronounced head bob, and a tight back, which doesn't palpate as painful and has no atrophy. We have done flexions with no noticeable difference (and once an improvement!), blocks, x-rays, ultrasounds, etc... nothing can be found.

One interesting thing is that this horse will work out of it, and it actually gets worse if the horse gets any rest! Which leads me to believe arthritis of some sort in the shoulder and back.

One of my vets wants me to put her on legend to "see what happens", but I'm just have to know what is going on w/this horse. ;)

I am taking her to Texas A&M for further evaluation tomorrow, but I am interested in your thoughts on it.
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WTG
Member
Username: Angel77

Post Number: 19
Registered: 5-2005
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 29, 2005 - 3:07 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dear Christine,

My horse used to be very stiff to the left and would stock up in the left hind. Instead of stalling him, even in a 12X24, he was moved to a 24X48 open corral and hasn't been stiff ever since. He no longer stocks up either.

He can also get as much or as little exercise he wants. This has also helped immensely with his attitude calming him down a lot!!

By the way my horse gets his monthly legend, daily Cosequin, daily Rapid Response T, daily mirra-coat, daily Vit E & Selenium crumbles, daily Vita Plus, daily Glazen 3c, daily Vit E 5000IU, daily raw flax seed, daily electrolytes, daily Strongid C2X, daily wheat germ oil, daily Vit B-1, daily Neighlox, and daily Senior Source SR. Then he gets the once a month sand purge for the first week every month called sand clear 99 or the equivalent of sand purge.


Dr.O can advise you on stalling. I thought I would share my experience with you.

Good Luck and God Bless all the animals and all of the people who take care of them!!

WTG
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 13250
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 29, 2005 - 6:06 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hello Christine,
There is no information in your post to help and you do have more information: a negative finding on a block is useful information as the lameness is not coming from this area. Can you tell us which blocks and radiographs were done and what the findings were? They have a good lameness groups at Texas A&T so I would expect useful information to come out of there.
DrO
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Christine Dye
Member
Username: Tdye

Post Number: 9
Registered: 1-2003
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 29, 2005 - 7:59 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Well we have, over time and on different days of course, blocked all 4 legs starting at the bottom and moving up. No shoulders or hips where blocked, I'm not sure why or if you can even do it. (Probably should have asked) X-rays of all the leg joints have been done (again no hips or shoulders) all are clean. The lameness or soreness doesn't appear to be in any of the legs...One of the problems I had, often, was when we would get to the vet she would not even be lame or stiff :-) How many times have you seen that? LOL

So just another question... if you were looking at this horse what would you do next? Any suspicion or speculations come to mind?

WTG, I started this mare on Asend (SP?) a couple of months ago and it did appear to have a good effect initially, but then nothing. Of course the horse has gotten progressivily worse. In all honesty the "good" reaction could have happened w/or w/out the supplement! So I don't know if it really had an effect or not.

My feeling is that I should know what it is I am treating or supplementing.

The last time I took her to one of the vets... he said, "I just don't know." He did see what I was seeing. It was an honest answer I can appreciate it. So off to a&m we go.

I will let you know what a & m finds.

Just consider this post a "venting" post.

Also, Dr. O, slightly off topic, do you know of any studies that have been done, that study "issues" of horses based on how they have been ridden... like excessivly overbent, or hollow etc? I don't know where to put a question like that. Biomechanics of the horse is a new "hobby" of mine.
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Lita Dove
Member
Username: Oakfarm

Post Number: 13
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 29, 2005 - 10:00 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

The last horse we had here with similar symptoms got his back injected with anti-inflammatories/slow-acting anesthetic, and this cleared the problem.

The good news: you will know in 24 hours if this is the problem.
The bad news: figuring out HOW and WHY it was the back..
FWIW, our vets include board-certified surgeon, and they have extensive knowledge/experience with sport horses. This horse 'just did not feel right' to me, nothing visible. We did the usual palpations,flexions, blocks..I worked him hard until what I felt was visible.Even then, he was not positive to back palpation, but when I was told that we could at least do the injecting and rule out the back, I thought it was worth it to try.
hope this helps in your decision,
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Christine Dye
Member
Username: Tdye

Post Number: 10
Registered: 1-2003
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 29, 2005 - 2:30 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Ya, thanks Lita.

Is there no diagnostic equipment for that part of the horse?

Did it clear your horses problem up permanetly or are you doing some kind of maintenance? Which would give a clue as to whether it just an acute injury or something more chronic.

I read the study on race horses and back problems... quite shocking!
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Lita Dove
Member
Username: Oakfarm

Post Number: 14
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 29, 2005 - 5:39 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I researched equine back problems and discovered The Great Void<g>..

there are a few studies going on, especially a vet in France who has been making some headway..

I do not know of diagnostic equipment that is conclusive--the horse's back and attached soft tissue, nerves, etc, is just waaay too complex and BIG for thermography, ultrasound, CAT, or even MRI, presuming this was possible.

Yes, injecting this horse's back has had a happy outcome. The hard long part was trying to figure out why it happened and how to prevent its re-occurrence.

My working hypothesis<g>: an acute injury BEFORE I got him (people seem to never worry about horses' backs), and as I asked him to do more, he got grouchier and grouchier..
I had my vets check his back when I bought him--he felt funny under my right seatbone when moving...no one could find anything whatsoever, cleanest X-rays and flexions ever, yadda-yadda..we made the decision that it was just muscle that needed more work...

I have not changed the gymnastic exercises or much of his schooling. I definitely am now more aware of making sure that this horse AND all the others use their backs, swing their backs,all the time.

He gets supplements, but nothing specific for his back, more for joints (she said sheepishly, having no idea if they really help but being afraid to stop the current program coz the horses feel pretty good).
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Christine Dye
Member
Username: Tdye

Post Number: 11
Registered: 1-2003
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 29, 2005 - 10:07 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Lita, anyway I can find the study(ies) you are referring to?

I'm not real certain w/supplements either. Out of six horses this one is the only one on any, and it was just something to try kind of thing... I will leave her on them until my issue is resolved or found and she is retired (big fear), then see what happens again w/out them.

I agree a swinging back is very important... shows relaxation. This horse has always started out tense and holds that tension in her back. I don't know if that tells me something or not.
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Lita Dove
Member
Username: Oakfarm

Post Number: 15
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 29, 2005 - 10:52 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

wellll..I clicked on my bookmarked sites, and the website not there anymore.
The vet's name is Jean-Marie Denoix. If you google, you will find that he has written a book=-=several books--on horses locomotion, backs, etc.

http://www.usyd.edu.au/su/rirdc/articles/miscell/weva99.htm

is a fairly representative article...

hope this is of some help..
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 13256
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Thursday, Jun 30, 2005 - 6:46 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

You have a head bob so at the least you have a front end lameness, this is not usual for back problems. Without knowing exactly what blocks were done and the results it is difficult to suggest the next step. The blocks as you go upward have "holes" where some areas are not covered and blocks are sometimes missed. So repeating them on the lame leg (see the article on how to associate the head bob with the lame leg) and if the horse remains lame exploration of the holes would be my next step.

No there are no such studies but plenty of material available, check out your local schooling barn that takes kids and new riders.
DrO
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Christine Dye
Member
Username: Tdye

Post Number: 12
Registered: 1-2003
Posted on Friday, Jul 1, 2005 - 7:33 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Well Dr. O. I feel stupid! A&M found lameness on left front, they blocked the hoof (navicular area) and she went sound (that has never happened before)! No other lamenss apparent, they even flexed more legs after the block to see if something else would show up.

They X-rayed both front feet and x-rays where clean. So vet thought maybe injury was acute and possibly involving soft tissue and proposed injecting the navicular/coffin bone joint from the front of the hoof (sorry can't remember technical term)with HA/cortisone. When they injected, a flow of fluid shot out of the needle from the hoof! Vet said it confirmed her diagnoses as that much fluid was not normal and indicated a high degree of inflamation and pressure.

Anyway I am hopeful for a recovery now, and wishing I had done this two weeks ago.

Thanks a bunch.
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