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HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Colic, Diarrhea, GI Tract » Mouth, Esophagus, and Liver » Slobbering, Salivation, and Clover Poisoning » |
Discussion on Slobbering, depression, swollen neck | |
Author | Message |
Member: spuddy98 |
Posted on Friday, Sep 26, 2014 - 9:12 pm: I have been a member here for a few years and have found this site helpful in caring for our 8 horses. I have searched here and found nothing like the problem we are experiencing now.This morning before leaving for work I checked the barn and our horses were in the run-in area( They are in our pasture most of the time.) Our 6 year old quarter horse gelding was somewhat lethargic and didn't want a handful of grain but I had to go to work and was distracted by another horse. Eddy is up to date on shots back in may and has been shown all summer and has been in excellent health. His last show was two weeks ago. Now this evening,12 hours later I look at him, now in his stall since lunchtime, he hasn't touched food, water and just nosed around his grain. He passed a couple of small piles of manure during the afternoon. His neck is swollen most of the length from throat latch to chest and the muscles on the top of the neck are very firm. He has clear possibly foamy mucus coming from his nose. called our vet and his temp is 103.3, respiration rate is 8, heart rate is 60. Vet doesn't think there is colic. NG tube went in with moderate difficulty and had no reflux. Vet administered 2-1/2 gallons water and again, no reflux. Vet attempted to administer dexamethasone via the Jugular but swelling prevented that. The vet then administered it in two IM sites. He suggested we check him in 12 hours (7:30 AM)and if he is not markedly better, take him to a vet clinic in central NY. (3 hours away). Could this be an allergic reaction? Lyme disease? Any other ideas? My fear is what will happen without his eating. Its been all day (at least). |
Member: spuddy98 |
Posted on Friday, Sep 26, 2014 - 11:45 pm: Just came in from the barn. 10:15 PM He has played with grain and was chewing when I walked to his stall. He had loud gut sounds. Probably the water helped there. The slobbering appears to have gone for now and he is at least swallowing his saliva.I hand fed him grain - a local mill mixture of pellets, corn and oats. He took it while being careful of his mouth and chewed it. When it was time to swallow it was very difficult and I could feel his pain. Swelling appears to be worst at the throat latch but seems to extend to the chest. Very tender upon palpation, less tender as I go along the neck. |
Member: mrose |
Posted on Saturday, Sep 27, 2014 - 1:10 am: In my experience, allergic reaction doesn't usually cause a fever. Could he have gotten bitten by anything? Or is there anything he could have eaten that is poisonous? It's odd that the throat latch and neck are swollen as well as the chest. However, if he's been lethargic and has had his head hanging down, the fluid build up would travel to the throat latch and even his head. As long as he's drinking, going without food for a day won't hurt him; but you are right, no food for longer could be a problem. Maybe a wet mash of some kind; chopped hay, very wet soaked cubes, grain...anything to get food into him.I hope he's better by morning. I take it the swelling is hard? I ask because there's been a lot of pigeon fever in our area this summer ( Utah) The swelling can occur anywhere and they get pretty sick from it. I would think your vet would mention it though if it looked like a possibility. Good luck. |
Member: spuddy98 |
Posted on Saturday, Sep 27, 2014 - 6:40 am: 6 AM check. He is slowly eating grain in a raise feeder. We gave him a small amount of beet pulp pellets soaked for a short time and he ate them. His fever is still 102. He passed a pile of manure and urinated as we stood there. When I left the stall he was trying to eat some hay. I left some more beet pulp soaked in water along with perhaps 5g bute. We will be contacting the vet early this morning and will see what happens. I will mention Pigeon fever. At this point the swelling seems more in the throat latch and Jaw. Perhaps from the lowered head. Could this possibly be strangles? He definitely is no longer slobbering his thick clear mucus. Any one out there in the horse advice world? |
Member: spuddy98 |
Posted on Saturday, Sep 27, 2014 - 7:13 am: Here is an image from 6 AM he is eating grain slowly and you can see the swelling at the back of the jaw/throat latch area. Usually very well defined here. |
Member: spuddy98 |
Posted on Saturday, Sep 27, 2014 - 8:22 am: Talked to the vet (he's out of town til this evening). He says to just watch him. Give additional Dexa in the afternoon. Doesn't think its strangles due to the mucus being clear. Says the swelling around the throat latch might just be a gathering area with the head being lowered. Will monitor him all day and if he worsens we may take the 3 hour ride to the hospital. |
Member: mrose |
Posted on Saturday, Sep 27, 2014 - 10:16 am: The fact he's eating is always good. :-). Does he still have fever? If you do take him to the clinic, they can do a swab of the mucus which would at the least rule out things, and could tell if it's infection or viral. If neither, then maybe (probably) some kind of reaction. One good thing, it doesn't look like Pigeon Fever. That stuff is nasty. I hope he continues to improve. |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Saturday, Sep 27, 2014 - 10:18 am: Hello Chris,Fever, depression, swelling in the submandibular/ throatlatch area and swallowing difficulties is consistent with a upper respiratory infection but the cause remains unknown. Why did your vet rule this out? Primary virus, bacteria, or secondary bacterial to trauma of the pharynx are on the list of possibilities. Another good exam, possibly a CBC w/ differential and consider a endoscopic exam of the pharynx and guttural pouches would all be logical at this point. DrO |
Member: spuddy98 |
Posted on Saturday, Sep 27, 2014 - 1:55 pm: Eddy again became depressed. The mucus is back. I called the back up vet suggested by my vet while out of town. This vet said it sounds like strangles. He said to use bute to make him comfortable and look to keep his temp below or around 100. It is now 1:40 in the afternoon and his temp is 101.5 - gave him a 500 pound dose of banamine. This second vet says the throat will abscess, burst and drain. Hopefully the course will go well. I have 7 other horses to look out for. I will track their temperatures every other day and will administer penicillin on elevated temps so long as my vet concurs.If this is strangles, according to literature, we are almost a week into it. Our horse was at a show exactly 3 weeks ago. That is most likely where he picked it up. However he has been exposed to a person who was around other horses a week ago. I can't exactly be sure where it came from. Thank you Dr. O for your advice. I know you don't speak directly to my horse' issue but address symptoms described by me. I will pass your suggestions to my vet in a tactful manner. |
Member: mrose |
Posted on Saturday, Sep 27, 2014 - 3:47 pm: Chris, out of curiosity, did your horse get strangles vaccine? And still get strangles?? I am curious because we have a stallion who shows frequently. He gets strangles shots along with all the other vet recommended vaccines and we try to make sure stalls are as clean as possible by spraying down with Lysol before we put the horses in them. But, as you say, even a person who's been touching a horse with strangles can be a carrier. At least you now what it is and how to treat it. I hope no one else gets it. |
Member: spuddy98 |
Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2014 - 11:23 am: I am not aware of a strangles vaccine he has been given. Dr. O can comment on them. I have also read that cleaning a stall for strangles is least effective with bleach or lysol. The best is to use a Hibiclens (Chlorhexidine gluconate solution 4.0% w/v)I have read (yesterday) that injectible strangles vaccine can cause strangles symptoms. The nasal vaccine can also cause side effects. I also have read that the vaccine is only effective for 6 months. I also have read that many horses, as they age, are more resistant to strangles. Some perhaps have strangles without the caretaker recognizing it. At 6 years old, perhaps Eddy is on the younger side. We have had a vet advise that our other 7 horses will likely get strangles. We have two 5 year olds and the rest are 10 and older. Our second vet is here now so I will see what he figures out. |
Member: mrose |
Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2014 - 12:56 pm: Good to know about the bleach and Lysol. I will pass that info on to our trainer. Our stay at home horses do not get Strangles vaccine as are a "closed herd" and are all older. Our two show horses do get Strangles nasal as they live at a trainers with horses coming and going and are at shows many times a year. It is my understanding that although they can get symptoms with Nasal the symptoms will be much less severe than the actual full blown virus. Have you read anything differently? I admit to not having read anything recently so thinking could have changed.I hope the rest of the herd don't get it! Of course, the trouble with these things is that by the time symptoms come on, it's too late to start practicing isolation routines; and who normally runs a barn that way! Good luck. On the bright side, it is something they will all survive and you caught it. |
Member: spuddy98 |
Posted on Wednesday, Oct 1, 2014 - 9:44 pm: I can't say for sure about the lysol but the article I read said bleach for streptococcus equi is less effective and your Hibiclense type product should be considered. |
Member: spuddy98 |
Posted on Wednesday, Oct 1, 2014 - 10:37 pm: Here's an update and a call for any suggestions anyone has although its out of my hands at this point. As I posted the update above on Sunday a Vet pulled in my driveway. He was the backup to my regular vet. He started Eddy on Penicillin 40cc to start and 20 twice a day. Tried a NG tube to provide water and it wouldn't go in.Sunday night Eddy got another 20CC pen as well as Monday morning. While I did go to work, I left work when the vet (2nd) called to suggest a different strategy. He wanted to add Gentamicin and a diuretic to attempt to decrease the swelling. I picked up the meds and administered them around Noon. My first vet showed up and increased the dosage of Gentamicin. He tried desperately to put in a NG tube but the horse could not swallow. We then made the decision to transport to an Equine hospital in Ohio about 140 miles away. They should have the diagnostics to find the problem. We made the 2-1/2 hour trip to the Clinic arriving at 4:40. The Doctors immediately inserted a Tracheostomy tube to allow the horse to continue breathing. He was not the in the worst distress but they wanted it in place before it happened. During the history interview the Doctor did ask if there was any chance of Trauma to the throat. I said no. He again asked if there was any chance he could have gotten caught in a gate/stall door/ fence. We said other than leaning over said items no. he asked again saying there did not have to be an obvious injury. I said no. They then did an ultrasound around his neck looking for an abscess. By this time his neck was swelled all around the throat latch, and in patches down both sides about 2/3 of his neck. His face was swelling around his jaw and lower lips. Very ugly. They found no sign of abscess but did say there was signs of gas in the edema areas. Next step was an endoscopy. They say normal vocal cords. The esophagus didn't work due to swelling (hopefully not permanent). Guttural pouches, one was fairly normal the other had a strange area, probably an emphysema. I believe they did look down the Trachea to see if there was a penetration/wound. Nothing found. Dr's then had us leave so they could x-ray the neck. Nothing seemed to stand out. The Vet then gave us the "talk". Eddy was a "solid 9 on a scale of 1 to 10" in the gravity of his situation. She advised giving him 24 hours and then put him down if there was no abscess to drain. Next day - Tuesday He had little change and temperature was controlled between 100 and 102. Turns out that was a good thing. They were able to get a foal sized NG tube in using the Endoscope to guide it. They stopped the Gentamicin and started him on an oral antibiotic that works on anaerobic bacteria. They provided water and some nutrition with more coming the next day. Another 24 hours was advised. Today, the update was minor. Still controlling the temp with the maximum spike at 102.5 or so (Not 104 like the whole weekend). He's actually still moving feces. No real clinical signs of founder or pneumonia. Very possibly the swelling is getting smaller. Another 24 hours is suggested hoping to find an abscess that they possibly can drain. The outlook is still grim but they are working to do everything they can. This is definitely not a save the horse at any cost type of deal. The Staff at the clinic counseled us on that. They do however want to give him a chance and hopefully know when its time to call it incurable. I will update this as I learn things. Hopefully if this happens to someone again they can work with a vet that will be available to determine it is not strangles and will start the antibiotic sooner. |
Member: spuddy98 |
Posted on Wednesday, Oct 1, 2014 - 10:46 pm: I have pressure washed the stalls Eddy was in and plan to bleach them tomorrow. Since its not strangles I will just use bleach. I considered borax too but will just go with bleach. All of out other 7 horses are fine so far. |
Member: mrose |
Posted on Wednesday, Oct 1, 2014 - 10:56 pm: Good grief Chris!! What does the clinic think this is then?? How strange. Since you are bleaching, I assume they are thinking infection, and that would be indicated by the fever. I'm glad that at least has gone down. How strange. It sounds like there has been a slight improvement, which I hope continues. I would be beside myself. Sometimes, btw, the "save the horse at any cost" scenerio isn't really in the horse's best interest. There have been times I've saved the horse, and other times, regardless of money, it just wasn't the right thing to do. Whatever happens, don't chide yourself for not wanting to "save the horse." I do hope he improves though, and will be vey curious to know what caused this if you ever find out. My heart goes out to you; it's a rough time. |
Member: frances |
Posted on Thursday, Oct 2, 2014 - 12:44 am: Thinking of you Chris and what you and your horse are going through. I so hope the next update is good news. |
Member: lucyc1 |
Posted on Thursday, Oct 2, 2014 - 9:46 am: Hi Chris:What a strange, painful situation. To echo "LL" I hope the next update is good news. You are in my thoughts. |
Member: rtrotter |
Posted on Thursday, Oct 2, 2014 - 10:38 am: Hi Chris,I am sorry to hear about your horse. I just wanted to relate a story about one of my horses from many years ago. I had a filly on her way back to racing from a turn out. she started running a low grade fever, treated with Bute and she seemed fine, so we went to race our other horse. came back from racing and her she was acting normal, no swelling anywhere. about 6 hours later we came back to the barn to find a big commotion in her stall. seems her throat latch area was about 3 times the normal size and her tongue had swollen so much that it was sticking out of her mouth. The vet referred us to New Bolton because he was afraid her swollen tongue would cut off her air. So, we went. We also got the talk and we took the wait and see approach as well. We got to the point where she was going to be put down the next day. She lived. What saved her was Hot compresses many times a day which brought the abscess to a head and broke it open. They could not locate the abscess/infection either. She had holes under her throat latch, down her jaw line and on the side of her face and mouth. Very ugly. It was not strangles and the closest thing that new Bolton would say was that it was either a spider/bug bite or a splinter.I used to flush all the holes in her face with a turkey baster as many times a day as I could and she was on Antibiotics for months afterwards. To get her exercised I ponied her in a race halter so I wouldn't have to put a bit in her mouth where the holes were. she did eventually make it back to the races. It really was a dire situation with her, just like it is for your horse, but with the improvement maybe the antibiotics are working on what ever it is and this will be resolved soon. My one piece of advice is to not stop the antibiotics to soon, even if it looks like the situation has resolved. But I am sure the Vet clinic knows this. Rachelle |
Member: spuddy98 |
Posted on Friday, Oct 3, 2014 - 7:21 pm: Here is the wrap-up. Wish it had the same outcome as rtrotter had.After several days of giving him another 24 hours the decision was made to humanely end our horses life. It occurred last night with my daughter and a girl we allowed to use him in 4H there. After DrOpping him off Monday he had made improvements in regard to the peripheral swelling of the neck but the primary swelling in the throat latch area remained. Finally Thursday the vet did see a small sign of an abscess however she said it was adjacent to a vein and probably difficult to reach safely. She did not know if draining this abscess would have a positive outcome. He could no swallow and still had the Trach in. Seeing him last night, I think he could have been okay without the Trach but still could not swallow. He'd had a "foal" sized NG tube in his stomach since Monday evening. They provided water and some type of nutrition but no roughage. Nearly a week without a full meal of hay. He was a bit unsteady having not slept well or layed down since Monday. The vet offered three options: 1. Wait and hope for a larger abscess that can be drained. The pressure creating a chance of damage to nerves, veins, arteries etc. 2. Do an expensive CT scan to try to locate the source of infection. Follow with risky surgery and if he survives, a long convalescence. Still a chance of pneumonia, colic and founder. Very little chance of survival. 3. Skip the expense of the CT scan. Do exploratory surgery. All the above options had major risk and great expense. To put a number on it, perhaps a minimum of $3,000 to $5,000 or more in addition to what was already spent. All with the chance that he could die, founder etc. The horse clearly had had enough and looked like a lab experiment. The presence of my daughter, her friend and myself was clearly a relief to the horse. He was so alert at first, I almost wanted to take him home to continue treatment but as we were there he showed how tired he was. He was our champion. Never, ever in the 4 years we owned him was he dangerous and we allowed our inexperienced 7 year old grand-daughter ride him in our open paddock exercise area. We will have other horses, we do have other horses, we have lost and put down other horses. There will never be another Eddy in our barn. He was one of a kind, my gentle, clumsy, perfect, Giraffe looking friend! |
Member: rtrotter |
Posted on Friday, Oct 3, 2014 - 7:36 pm: I am so sorry for your loss. RIP EddyRachelle |
Member: dres |
Posted on Friday, Oct 3, 2014 - 7:38 pm: RIP Eddy ..On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots |
Member: frances |
Posted on Saturday, Oct 4, 2014 - 12:48 am: So very sorry for your loss of a good friend. |
Member: mrose |
Posted on Saturday, Oct 4, 2014 - 12:51 am: I am so sorry Chris. There are horse, and then there are Horses; and it is so hard to loose one of the special ones no matter what the age or circumstances. It is especially difficult when you loose one to illness or accident before his old age. Don't let your mind wander to that dark place where you second guess your discission and wonder "what if." You obviously did your best and acted in his best interest. Imo it is unfair to the horse to keep them alive, do surgery etc when the outcome is so "iffy" and the recovery period painful and difficult. And, you knew your horse and he let you know he'd had enough. I'm so sorry. Remember the good times and the lessons he tought Hugs to your daughter and family. I know this was difficult. |
Member: mrose |
Posted on Saturday, Oct 4, 2014 - 12:52 am: Forgive spelling. Ipad wouldn't let me scroll back and correct. |
Member: kathleen |
Posted on Saturday, Oct 4, 2014 - 1:39 pm: So sorry you had to make this difficult decision for your wonderful friend. As Sara said it is especially difficult with the special ones. RIP Eddy. |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Sunday, Oct 5, 2014 - 9:39 am: My Deep Condolences Chris,DrO |