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Linda Rayford
| | Posted on Wednesday, Nov 10, 1999 - 11:38 pm: |   |
have an arabian stallion that is currently under going treatment for hematuria.we have several oaks surrounding his paddock in northern calif.he has been eating the acorns for aprox.7 yrs.i have read that acorns and the leaves from the oak has caused hematuria in cattle,what about equine? |
Helen Weedon
| | Posted on Thursday, Nov 11, 1999 - 7:29 am: | |
Hi Linda. i don't know a thing about hematuria but acorns and oak leaves are definitely on my list of poisonous plants. Apparently horses can develop a real taste for them and gradually eat more and more. The tannic acid (I think) does their insides no good at all and can cause liver failure. Is it possible to fence off where the leaves and acorns fall? Even better bring in a pig or two to gobble the acorns up -they love them!
I hope your horse gets better. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
| | Posted on Thursday, Nov 11, 1999 - 10:03 am: | |
Hello Linda,
No not hematuria but hemoglobinuria can occur, but they both look red. Let me explain the difference. Hematuria is blood cells in the urine. Hemoglobinuria is the prescense of the red blood cell protein: hemoglobin in the urine.
Oak poisoning is reported in horses and usually just do to a few of the many species of oaks. It is believed the tannins in the tissues of the oak are responsible. Both the acorn and leaves contain the tannins and are most toxic in the spring and while green.
Tannins are potent precipitators of protein. Ingestion of large quanities can damage the bowel wall and if enough is absorbed cause red blood cells to lyse and damage to the kidneys. Symptoms can vary depending on the amount ingested. Usual symptoms are dry hard stools with blood in them but there may be a hemmoragic diarrhea if severe. The lysis of the RBC.s releases hemoglobin into the blood, the kidney filters this out and puts it in the urine which is the cause of the redc discoloration of the urine. Complicating the picture is large quanities of hemoglobin will damage the kidneys.
DrO |
Linda Rayford
| | Posted on Monday, Nov 15, 1999 - 7:00 pm: | |
Dr.Oglesby,
Thank you for your reply.I know i questioned about acorns before and i am still curious about the toxins in them.I would like to know aprox.how many acorns it takes to reach a toxic level in a horse that wieghs aprox.1000lbs?And is there any type of antidote?My stallions son who is 21/2 loves them ,even after picking up the acorns daily there are still alot of acorns falling and that are getting ate.I am worried about his health also!My stallion,at the time his bloodwork was done,aparently had no toxins in his blood.
The day my stallions problem started,he had made a fast dash out of his stall into his very large paddock.He dashed out of his stall like a race horse starting out the gate.He started urinating blood clots soon after.I brought him to U.C.Davis were he was examined.Raskal was rapidly developing anemia due to blood loss.They endoscopically explored and found that the blood was coming from the right kidney.Both kidneys were checked by ultrasound.The right kidney appeared to have a solid mass which was causing some dialation of the renal pelvis.They could not do a biopsy at this time due his low count.Raskal was then given a blood transfusion.He was also given (Aminocaproic acid) to increase his ability to form blood clots.This medication is an experimental drug being tested for future use on humans with internal bleeding at the U.C..It worked and Raskal is now home.He has a recheck date coming up and seems to be doing well.But the chance of full recovery is out of the question!We still don't know what caused this!This has got me reaching for the answer!I don't want to loose my best friend!!
I would like to know if Hematuria is common in endurance horses?What about Arabians?Is it more common with this breed?Could Raskal have ripped,torn,or ruptured his kidney when he made his mad dash out of his stall?Could it have been from the acorns that he eats that have been falling in his paddock all these years?Any ideas?I take his blood count twice a week and take it to our local vet to test.His count is still a little low but rising.I also have the aminocaproic at home that i administer daily along with visorbin.I keep him in a small contained area as instructed until his recheck.All vital signs are good and he is feeling great!But he's not out of danger yet!This problem can start again at any given time.His kidney could rupture if the clotting in it continues to grow!I'm open for any information,opinions,ect. that i can get!!!
THANX!! |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
| | Posted on Tuesday, Nov 16, 1999 - 4:56 am: | |
Concerning the toxicity of acorns there is no hard and fast answer: it seems to depend on the specie of oak, the time of the year, the amount ingested.... Near as I can tell no studies have been done. Currently the only antidote is mineral oil or charcoal. Both to help keep the tannis frm being absorbed, but do not use together the mineral oil will block the charcoal.
I do not think your case sounds anything like oak poisoning. The mass in the kidney is suspicious however. Have you considered surgical removal of this kidney?
DrO |
Linda Rayford
| | Posted on Wednesday, Dec 1, 1999 - 1:28 pm: | |
Dr.O,
Yes surgery was considered.It is very costly in the area of $50,000.Also they would not allow me to see my Raskal for the first week after surgery due to the high doses of pain killers he would be on after surgery.The operation is one that is rarely done on horses.U.C.Davis offered to flip for the bill if I allowed them to use Raskal to further thier knowledge and experience.The surgery requires them to remove one rib in order to get to the kidney.With my Raskals age to also consider and the long and painful recovery needed after surgery,I couldn't find it in my heart to put him through it!Raskal is 22 years old!He has been gaining wieght daily.He has normal bowels.His coat is healthy.And he is feeling great!!Now I have another problem come about while writting this to you!Raskal started bleeding again.I took him to U.C.Davis once again!Now he is bleeding from his left kidney!!!!The vets can't believe it! They say they have never seen a horse that is in such great shape and showing no signs of stress with Hematuria.Raskal has no signs of problems except the bleeding!I am allowing them to go in through his spline and do a biopsy!They have also put him back on the clotting medication!I am beside myself I don't know what to do anymore!!I don't want to loose my best friend!But I can't let him suffer through all these procedures,and I can't afford to much more!I am open for any info on this problem from anyone at this point!!THANX!! |
Linda Rayford
| | Posted on Wednesday, Dec 1, 1999 - 1:39 pm: | |
Hi Helen,
Thank you for your response,sorry it took me so long to answer you.I also hope my horse makes it through all this.I'll try to keep in touch.This internet stuff is all new to me,so bare with me.I have been so busy trying to help him with his recovery.Keeping a stallion quiet is not all that easy.But I'm do |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
| | Posted on Thursday, Dec 2, 1999 - 6:00 am: | |
Hello Linda,
I know you are having a lot of trouble with this but take heart in that he is feeling so well. Try not to worry to much about what to do next until the work up is finished.
How are they determining which kidney the blood is coming from? Who is your Doctor at U of Cal? Almost every equine Practitioner will be in Albuqurque next week, I would love to discuss the case with them.
At the very least let us know what the work up shows. I am particularly interested in what the ultrasound and biopsy show.
DrO |
Helen Weedon
| | Posted on Thursday, Dec 2, 1999 - 10:46 am: | |
Hi Linda,
I would agree with Dr O, your Raskal is obviously feeling well in himself so try not to worry yourself into the ground. You are lucky to have such good veterinary facilities to send him to.
I was just re-reading your earlier posts and thinking about your comments that he flew out of his stall into the paddock. My mare had an epileptic fit which I'm guessing happened while she had her head over the stable door as only the door frame above could have made such a cut behind her ears. Nobody saw anything but she was found stretched out on the floor just inside the door and completely cast. When we finally got her up the door was open and she went through it like a cork out of a bottle, she was so frightened by what had happened to her. Its a bit of a long shot but could your Raskal have been cast too but eventually got himself up? If he was thrashing about a bit he might have hurt his kidneys by twisting himself.
Try to think of toys you can put in his stall to entertain him, even a big root vegetable tied from the roof on a string will keep him busy for a bit. I have a special barrel which dribbles food out as the horse rolls it around with its nose. A big rubber ball to push about, a section of turf to nibble can all help. Even having a radio playing is appreciated - voices rather than music though. My horse enjoys drama productions during weekend afternoons!!
Keep smiling, he isn't finished yet.
Best wishes, Helen |
Linda Rayford
| | Posted on Sunday, Dec 5, 1999 - 9:34 pm: | |
DrO,
Raskals time is finally going to come to an end!What ever was in his right kidney has traveled over to his left!The vets have been unable to stop the bleeding this time.All possible steps have been taken!They were unable to do the biopsy due to the fact that they couldn't control his bleeding!My Raskal will be gone in about four days!The vets let me bring him home until he is ready to go.At this time I am to bring him back to the university for an autopsy.The vets are stunned!They and myself have to know what exactly killed my Raskal!He had gained 36lbs. over the period he was home.His blood count was close to normal and he was looking great!The vets were totally amazed about his fantastic condition.Even as I was on my way home with him they continued to praise him and photograph him for thier books!The University is paying for the autopsy.When the procedure is completed,they will creamate my Raskal so I can bring him home.I don't want Raskal to go to that place that all those other horses go to!!The hardest part of this whole situation,is that Raskal is not in any pain and he looks so well and seems to be feeling his ol' self!!One of the questions that did come up now,is "Could it have been a parisite that broke down Raskals kidneys?"I hope that my Raskal will be able to tell me what took him away from me in such a strange and unfair way!!In a way that even has some of the most brilliant minds baffled!!The University even conversed with Human Drs. specializing in kidneys.They could not give any answers for what is going on either!!Well I guess we'll all know in a few days!!Thank you for all your help!And I will let you know the results!When I'm able!!Thanxs Linda |
Linda Rayford
| | Posted on Sunday, Dec 5, 1999 - 10:01 pm: | |
Dr.O
I'm sorry that I didn't mention the Drs. earlier.The main Vet who has been working with with Raskal at The University of Davis,Ca. is Dr. Nathan Slovis.I would be very pleased to have you converse with him and to discuss this in Albuqurque next week!I hope you read this in time to talk to Dr.Slovis before you go!!Thanks again!! |
Linda Rayford
| | Posted on Monday, Dec 6, 1999 - 12:23 pm: | |
Dr.O
I have spoken with Dr.Slovis since last night and we discussed my conversing with you!He would love to speak with you!!We also talked about a convention that has Hematuria as the main topic,also this week!A Vet from Michigan who is studying Hematuria is the guest speaker.This vet has several horses with Hematuria.Is this the one you are attending?I would like to say that during the entire time Raskal was ill at the University,he had the most professional,dedicated, and caring people helping him that anyone could ask for!Dr.Slovis and Dr.Magnesium along with thier staff were fantastic!And I am forever grateful!Thanks!Linda! |
Linda Rayford
| | Posted on Wednesday, Dec 8, 1999 - 2:42 pm: | |
Hi Helen,My name is Gail; I am Linda's niece.Raskal is not doing well at this time though he still looks great.I have his son who is 21/2 yrs.I am so concerned that this could be passed through the genes!I guess,we will all know when they do the autopsy on Raskal!Something I hope we find an answer to before he goes.Something to help save his life!But ,yes theres always a radio playing in our barn!I would like to get one of those balls that dispences the treats out!My Baby loves to play with the bright orange hwy. cones.When my boyfriend throws it ,he brings it back!Rashad loves to play.And he loves to be rewarded at the same time.Thank you for all your advice and concern!The posts to the Dr. tells whats been going on!thanx Gail! |
Helen Weedon
| | Posted on Thursday, Dec 9, 1999 - 11:25 am: | |
Hi Gail, I'm really sorry to hear about poor old Raskal. At least he doesn't seem to be suffering at the moment. Poor Linda, I bet she doesn't feel like talking to anyone at the moment. Please give her my best regards.
Helen |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
| | Posted on Thursday, Dec 9, 1999 - 9:00 pm: | |
Hello Linda,
I did not get your message before we left but let me know the outcome and our thoughts are with you.
DrO |
Linda Rayford
| | Posted on Monday, Dec 13, 1999 - 3:10 am: | |
Dr.O,
Well once again Raskal has taken a turn for the better!They originally gave him about four days before he passed on from loss of blood!It's now day #7 and Raskal is still standing and has stopped bleeding!But he still has us all stumpt!Hopefully he will continue to do well in the next week.He is then scheduled for the biopsy they couldn't give him last week.The Question of what is causing his problem is driving me crazy!He has no physical or vital signs that let you know or that are giving any clues to whats really going on!Dr.Slovis now has him on Azium and he has been wormed with Panicur paste.I don't know for sure if it's the Azium thats helping him or what!All we know for sure is that the bleeding has once again stopped!Raskal still seems to be fine and is acting like his ol' self!I really can't afford to do much more!the U.C. is doing the biopsy at thier cost due to the fact that they are just as curious as I am,If not more!Dr.Slovis said he would like to speak with you!Can he e-mail you?Or?I will let you know the results of the biopsy as soon as I find out!Thank you for your advice!What do you think about a parisite or Fiddleneck poising?We do have it here!It could have been in his hay without my knowledge.I was using a new supplier for a few months.It was around that time that Raskal developed this problem!Thanks Linda. |
Linda Rayford
| | Posted on Monday, Dec 13, 1999 - 3:28 am: | |
Hi Helen,
I'm sure you probably read the ltest post to Dr.O so you know whats going on now!It sure is hard for me to watch my aunt go through all this!It would be so much esier on all of us if we just knew what was wrong!Knowing how she more than likely feels kills my heart!My old Arab (32yrs) is at her ranch also and he lives day by day.Even though he is looking great he can go at any time.He died on me 3 times last year!Or at least we thought at the time he was!Boy has he fooled us!He has only been sick 1x in his entire 27yrs with me!He had an impaction about 2yrs ago that should have killed him acording to the vet!He couldn't crap for 7days!Any other horse should have ruptured after 72hrs at the most.On the 7th day I called the vet back out to put him down.As the vet pulled into the driveway he hunched over and grunted real hard and out it came!His bowel was the size of a regular football!The vets were stunned!Needless to say,so was I & my aunt.Whats with our horses?They definately have alot of heart and a very strong will to live!!Have to go thanks for your thoughtfullness!Gail |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
| | Posted on Monday, Dec 13, 1999 - 7:20 am: | |
Yes, Dr. Slovis can email me. My address is roglesby@horseadvice.com. I do not think a parasite is likely to cause bilateral bleeding but it would not be impossible. Fiddleneck poisoning causes liver damage so I do not think it would cause the kidneys to bleed unless it affected the production or consumption of clotting factors perferentially. Usually other symptoms occur first when the liver is affected. Has the clotting profile of the blood been tested and was it normal?
DrO |
Linda Rayford
| | Posted on Tuesday, Feb 15, 2000 - 10:09 pm: | |
DR.O
Hello,my name is Gail I am Linda's niece!I thought that I would inform yopu that Raskal is doing fantastic!!We are even thinking of breeding him this season!We have several people waiting till after he is retested in March.He is scheduled for a ultrsound and possibly a biopsy if any masses are evident.He has continued to gain weight and act like his old self.We were wondering though,if his kidney problem could have any effect on his reproductive system?Could breeding him cause his kidney to bleed again?Is there any conection at all with the two systems since the bleeding was released through his urinary tract?What do you think about breeding him?Do you feel it could be harmful to him in any way?Any info on this from you would be appreciated! Thank You, Gail |
Linda Rayford
| | Posted on Tuesday, Feb 15, 2000 - 10:24 pm: | |
Dr.O,
Hello again!I also wanted to ask you if the fruitless mulberry/regular mulberry trees are poisonous to horses in any way?I have both types of trees in my yard.I am getting ready to move my 3 yr.old to my house, and I want to make sure that my yard is safe before I allow my horse to have one of the trees in his pen for shade.This is just in case my baby finds these trees tasty,I am very careful(probably over protective) of him!He is Raskals last colt,and I do worry about him having the same problems of his sire!Which also brings me to the thought or question of, could Raskals problem be passed through to his offsprings?I understand that if his problem was brought on by something toxic that he ate,then it should not be passed down.once again your knowledge and professional opinion would be appreciated. Thank You Gail |
Helen Weedon
| | Posted on Wednesday, Feb 16, 2000 - 4:24 am: | |
Dear Gail and Linda,
Oh that is such good news, you've really made me happy! I was only thinking about Raskal yesterday and was toying with the idea of putting out a message to you to see how he was, but was worried that the worst had happened and didn't want to upset you. I bet your vets and hospital are dumbfounded. Raskal obviously has tremendous will to live and if his reward is to see a few ladies then no wonder he has made such a good recovery! |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
| | Posted on Wednesday, Feb 16, 2000 - 8:57 am: | |
Hello Linda,
The news is great. Whether this would effect is reproduction would depend what was wrong and as near as I can tell that still has not been established.
DrO |
Linda Rayford
| | Posted on Thursday, Feb 17, 2000 - 8:14 pm: | |
Dear Helen,
Yes,great news it is!And yes Raskal loves life!He was in his own area that is located above the main barn and had a huge paddock that overlooked the rest of the property,he always had to see everything that was going on and still does!We moved him into the barn which has four stalls and put his ladies next to him.It seemed to keep him more calm with them close and in sight.It seemed to work well and he now remains there.And boy howdy,you are right about him having everyone duumbfounded!We really have the need to know what the heck caused all this!We are real leary on the other hand about this up coming date for the biopsy!They have to go through the spline in order to do the procedure.And that alone is complicated and it will put him through more discomfort!God knows he has been through enough already!And due to the fact that they have to enter the kidney in order to perform this,we are worried about it starting the bleeding again.But without the biopsy we will never know what it was or what caused!I'd like to keep in contact so,lets stay on the chat!O.K.?I'm new at all this computer stuff!It's cool and very addicting!
by for now,Gail |
ANN COLLIER (Dres)
| | Posted on Friday, Sep 21, 2001 - 9:19 pm: | |
any outcome on the horse Raskal?????
ann |
jeri l rutledge
Member
Username: Slytwink
Post Number: 2
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, Jun 21, 2003 - 2:35 pm: | |
linda, could you tell me what diet they recommended for raskal? i have a horse with kidney problems and i am trying to put her on the best possible diet to gain back some weight. thanks |
