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Discussion on Stiffness in the right side? | |
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Posted on Friday, Mar 31, 2000 - 10:06 pm: Greetings all.In the past month or so, my 5 year old mare has developed a definite intolerance for trotting and cantering clockwise. She begins a distinct counterbend to the inside, and is subsequently out of balance. My trainer and I have exhausted nearly all behavioral/training issues that could contribute to this; the bit & bridle fit well, the saddle also fits perfectly. She does not have any previous injuries save for a deep laceration on her heel sustained about 3 years ago (which she recovered from and shows no sign of lameness in). The only thing we've come up with is a possible problem in her back; she lunges perfectly, with the correct bend, and only counterbends (and occasionally tosses her head) when she has a rider on board. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what I should do? Should I give her some time off, call an equine chiropractor or massage therapist, etc? Thanks for any input. Dawn |
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Posted on Friday, Mar 31, 2000 - 11:51 pm: My gelding had a stiffness in his right side--was terrible under saddle (my first clue), fussy with the farrier working on his right side (2nd clue) and couldn't reach around with his head to eat a carrot. Called the vet. She found a little swelling in the neck, said maybe a bone fragment, bute him. Called chiropractor. He said vertebrae out of alignment--put it back in place, happy ending.I have always, always called the vet first and had never used an equine chiropractor before. In this case, I should have called the chiro first. Good luck. |
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 1, 2000 - 3:40 am: I must interject here there is no way of making this diagnosis from a physical examination much less the thought that this can be corrected through some physical manipulation.DrO |
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 1, 2000 - 11:15 am: If it were my horse, I would have a vet out and get flexion tests done on the hocks. Then go from there. |
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 1, 2000 - 1:21 pm: Well, Dr. O--what can I say? It worked! Been fine ever since (Feb. 20 was date of treatment). He is now his old self under saddle, is able to reach around for a carrot and stands quietly for the farrier again. I appreciate what you're saying, however. What do you think might make such a sudden, dramatic difference if it was not, in fact, the treatment? I'm certainly open to other explanations. Thanks. (Also, in the vet's defense--it was just a suggestion on her part, not a definitive answer.) |
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 2, 2000 - 11:55 am: Hello Eva,My favorite type discussions. Have you ever heard the story about the rooster who believed that because he crowed, the sun came up? The amazing thing was it worked every day for his whole life, now if that is not proof.... 150 years ago blood letting was the treatment of choice in many ailments and the reason was many times the patient got well following the treatment. What you have is a clinical case with poorly defined symptoms, a diagnosis based on no well defined disease process, a treatment of unproven efficacy based on this diagnosis, and a GOOD outcome. It is possible that the result was due to the treatment, everyone must decide this on their own. But there is a more likely explanation: as long as a treatment does no harm this type outcome is to be expected to happen at least 80% of the time. There is a downside to this type treatment. Any adjustment to the cervical vertebrae that is designed to impart enough force to change the relationship of the vertebrae, has the potential to damage the spinal cord. At least one such case report appears somewhere on this board. Much better in my opinion is Marion's advice, to have a veterinarian you trust give a thorough exam to the horse and take the next step depending on the results. DrO |
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 2, 2000 - 5:19 pm: Well, I'll certainly take the "good outcome."As I mentioned, I had not used an equine chiropractor before, and was somewhat skeptical. (I personally went to one years ago, after wrenching my back in a fall, only to be told my "real" problem was that I used aluminum pots in which to cook my food.) The day of my horse's treatment, there were also four outside horses trailered in to my place for appointments. Every one of them was moving better after their individual treatment. You could watch the horses start to smack their lips and chew about half way into the treatment--whatever he was doing seemed to feel good to them. Either this chiro man is very good or very lucky, as he has been at his trade for 20 years. I don't think that chiropractic will replace DVM care, but I now think it's an additional avenue for uncomfortable horses. Perhaps my situation is unique, but there are only five or six large animal vets in the county. They see 150 dairy cows for every horse. (There is a vet hospital 100 miles away and there are vets who do specialize in equines there. It takes two to three weeks to get an appointment.) While our vets are hard-working conscientious people, they just don't know enough about horses. I value them for what they CAN do; but I often want more than they can deliver, and I rarely want to wait two or three weeks to get it. I notice that some vets across the country are incorporating accupuncture and chiropractric into their own practices. Comments? Eve |
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 2, 2000 - 8:04 pm: Thanks everyone for your response. I'll definitely give them all consideration. Dr. O., I'm surprised at your apparent resistance to "alternative" remedies. I have used them myself when conventional methods fail (which they do quite often) and have had marvelous results. Case in point: I was recently diagnosed with Fibromyalgia, a muscle disorder akin to arthritis. I began traditional medications and at the same time (at the recomendation of my rheumatologist) began acupuncture. I quickly lost all signs of pain, and was uncertain what it was that was helping. Well, due to lack of finances, I had to stop the acupuncture treatments, but maintained traditional treatment. Within two weeks,all pain had returned. What I'm saying is, it works. And as far as self-fulfilling prophecy goes, consider the fact that horses do not expect a given treatment to work. So if a horse that is all but given up for lame is fully recovered with just a few acupuncture treatments (as I have had occasion to see), is that just the horse (or the owner for that matter) expecting the acupressure treatments to work? If you are willing to believe that one's expectations of treatment are able to manifest physically in the form of healing, how much more far-reaching is it to suggest that chiropractic medicine is also a viable means to correct an ailment? I do not mean to sound rude, but I honestly feel that too little credence is given to "holistic" medicine when I have personally seen it work.That said, I went trail riding yesterday, and jogged my mare, with absolutely no problem. This leads me to believe it is ONLY on a right bend and only at the trot/canter. So what to do now? Well, my vet has seen her and can't think of anything, so he has recommended a chiropracter. I'm going to give that a try. I guess the next plan of action would be to try acupuncture or acupressure. Meanwhile, are there any exercises that can be done to maximize flexibility? When standing, my mare is able to bend her head around to the right and left. It appears to be only during movement that she has the problem. Sorry to be so long-winded and thanks again everyone for the input! |
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Posted on Monday, Apr 3, 2000 - 8:15 am: Hello Eva and Dawn,The problems with labels like "alternative" is they mean different things to different people. As anyone who reads me regularly knows, I take regular equine medicine to task far often than alternative therapies, but when you hear me criticize the complaint is the same: therapies of unproven efficacy and uncertain toxicity being sold as proven cures. Throw in bizarre diagnostic techniques and I think you have a real medical quagmire. In my parlance, oral isoxsuprine and the common use of thyroid medication in adult horses are all alternative medications: by which I mean they have no scientific evidence supporting their use. But on the other hand I use accupuncture in my practice for conditions like chronic back pain, research shows efficacy so this is not alternative. If accupuncture could really take permanantly lame horses and make them sound, as you claim here, I think this would make news somewhere. I do believe that ones expectations of success effect the outcome of treatment. But would we not do better by understanding this principle and using it to its full advantage rather than pretending that some poorly understood medication or procedure is effective? If you are willing to forfeit scientific evidence as the method by which you make judgements, how do you judge what is too far? I think many folks in alternative medicine do not understand science. Medical science is NOT saying, "because we have not tested it it does not work". What we are saying is "we don't know the effect of this medication/procedure until it is tested using scientific principles like double blind studies". What is wrong with that? It is only fair to point out the results of this method over the last 100 years has almost doubled both our and our horse's life span. But medicine based on the casual observation of the outcome has been around since the first cave man became ill. DrO |
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 4, 2000 - 7:02 am: Well all arguments about alternative therapies aside, how can I better help my mare? As I said the other day, I took her out on the trail and she fine in the trot. No head tossing, etc. This leads me to believe that it is in the context of the arena alone that she has this problem, and not only on clockwise circles, but even when traveling clockwise around the arena. She developed this problem about 1 1/2 months ago. Any suggestions as to how I can make her more comfortable / loosen her up? Thanks. |
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 4, 2000 - 8:54 am: Ohhh..we got a little off subject here. Lets see...counterbends to the inside when trotted/cantered on the circle in a arena...If I understand your post correctly, he is not counterbending (bending the opposite way of the circle) but has an exaggerated bend to the inside of the ciecle? Do I have this right? Can you describe this in a little more detail. Is he overflexing just the poll, or also the neck and body? What is his attitude like during this time? The problem with this sort of discourse, is we only can know what you tell us and if you knew what to tell us you could solve the problem. The fact he "overflexes" to the inside suggests to me this is not a pain issue. Generally pain results in decrease flexion not increased flexion. But, I still think a complete lameness and neuro-exam including leg and cervical flexions should be done just to be sure. If this checks out and since your trainer is out of ideas, perhaps y'all need to access a more experienced trainer: I think you may be cuing this behavior and are not aware of it. DrO |
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 4, 2000 - 10:51 am: Hi Dawn,here are some ideas that you can check out to see if they are pertinent to your situation: 1. when you are going around a corner or turn do you shift your weight too much to one side? This will cause a change in the horse's way of going as he/she tries to balance you. 2. When she bends too much to the inside put more pressure on the outside leg and rein to straighten her shoulder. 3. Try doing "squares" instead of "circles". On a square you do a turn but keep the horse going straight, not bent. This gets the shoulders going well. 4. Check your horse's way of going on the straight lines: is she carrying her head too much to one side? hope this is helpful. TeresaA |
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 4, 2000 - 2:08 pm: If I may interject here. I am of the opinion that if my horse is ill and my vet has done everything he/she can and they know of no other possible remedies, but I have learned of some alternative possibilities from this source or others, then I would dnot hesitate to use them regardless of what my vet says. After all, it is my horse.I would not expect my vet to recommend anything that they had no evidence of it's "curing" powers. If they did, then it would also open them up to lawsuits should anything go wrong. All I'm saying is that if you have heard of an alternative method of treating your problem and all the modern veterinary procedures have failed, then, by all means, use it if you are comfortable with it. What your vet or Dr. O says really doesn't matter if it's what you want, but don't expect them to give you the thumbs up. |
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 4, 2000 - 3:14 pm: We are fortunate in Johannesburg that there are many proficient "alternative practitioners" for horses; one of them, a qualified vet, has become a full-time equine acupuncturist and a second one, a highly-qualified chap who was involved in a big equine practice for many years, has gone totally over to homeopathy, is used extensively by the racing industry with great success, and has now brought out a range of homeopathic veterinary products which work. I have now transferred Bellini's treatment for gastric ulcers from the Ulsanic over to this vet's product and he is doing really well and has not had one colic. My Doberman is nearly 7 years old, spayed early, and has become incontinent. His product has stopped her incontinence.Nearly all other veterinary clinics stock and promote his products. Two massage therapists/chiropractors - mother and daughter - have worked miracles with all my horses, past and present. When Desie was 10 years old, I was told by a number of vets that I would never be able to ride him again as he had arthritis in his spine and fetlock. After a year or so, I heard of the mother and after a few treatments, I was able to ride him until he was 17 and lost his eye. She treated him regularly, and kept him as supple as a cat and pain-free - he didn't have arthritis, he was just totally stiff and seized up from his own hi=jinks. These ladies are extremely knowledgeable, can both do teeth if necessary, know the skeleton and muscular structure of the horse inside out, and the riding community value them highly. I actually don't consider these practices "alternative" any more - it is all part of equine therapy. |
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 4, 2000 - 6:36 pm: Poor Dawn, she lost control of her topic :O)Dawn, To me, it sounds as if the horse is a-ok while being lunged without a rider, and ridden on the straight away. I am back to wondering what about the rider that makes it different ... Do you have another saddle, or a bareback pad you can ride in? Are you sure the tree of your saddle is intact? Does the horse have the same difficulty when a more advanced/experienced rider works her? Is she quiet enough that she can be lunged while you are astride - i.e. a lunge lesson? What is her comfort level then? It is possible that as she has been worked and become more muscled, and now the saddle is giving her trouble. Sometimes the sweat marks are indicators - uneven ones, or dry spots would suggest a saddle that isn't perfect. My own mare has gone through several saddles. (ouch to the pocket book). The last had been fitted by a very good saddler, yet it still didn't suit her enough at the canter. It was subtle, but quickly resolved when I switched to another saddle. Now she is going much better. 5 year olds are just filling out ... perhaps your saddle really isn't perfect enough for a finicky mare? The other thing (don't take this personally, please) is that you may not be riding as "evenly" as you'd like - a collapse here, a nudge there, a too tight rein over there, etc. could cause a sensitive mare to not do as well. A lunge lesson would help to highlight this, too. Again, a rider switch should make the problem change or go away. You can also try video taping a ride. Wrap the left legs in one polo color and the right in another. Then video and watch in stop action to see if you can see any stride differences in the front or back. Has your farrier changed what he/she is doing recently? Are her teeth okay? Wolfies removed? Recently smoothed? Do you have access to a teaching vet school? A while back I had exhausted my vet's diagnostic ability and the "benign neglect" (turnout and wait for healing) didn't work so I asked for a referral. My horse received a very complete work up and and the fees weren't too bad. Oddly, the diagnosis was not promising and she shouldn't have recovered, but she did, so I've always wondered what was really wrong LOL. I don't really want to know as she's been doing fine for several years, touch wood. (Other than her recent knothead incident.) Anyway, that's my 2 cents. I'll argue the merits of science vs. alternative another day. As an aside - I attended NCSU's open house on Saturday and they had a table (!) with alternative information on it - dog nutrition, TTEAM, Mark Rashid's books, HOMEOPATHY!, chiropractic, etc. One of the students told me they offer an optional short course for their students on alternative therapys and it is "fun." Hmmm. Bye for now. |
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 5, 2000 - 7:25 am: James is exactly right, the choice should be yours to decide. I think current laws requiring licensure to practice (on people or pets) make no sense from a "moral rights" stand point: people have the right to seek treatment where they see fit. I just continue to argue for logical treatment.AFM, I hear stories like this but am not familiar with any such cases, despite having been involved with dozens of veterinarins on both sides of the fence, over my life. I certainly am not saying that veterinarians don't make mistakes but when I hear someone that has had common experiences like this it makes me wonder what's going on. If you think the veterinarians involved in this case would be open to discussing it, I would like to contact them and maybe we can probe this phenomenea deeper. I have to admit IF I had vet's who pronounced a horse uncurable who was just stiff, I would looking for alternatives. Hi Chris, yes we are definately seeing a greater interest in the medical community in some forms of nontraditional treatment. I am hoping useful information will come out of the investigation of this treatments. I think the use of accupuncture for chronic back pain has helped horses in my practice but only use the communicators for answering some of the vaguer posts of this board. DrO |
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 6, 2000 - 7:12 am: Wow. Thank you all again for responding. My mare just developed this problem in the past month or so. My trainer checked saddle fit, etc. The tack seems fine, but something we still keep our eyes on. Christine, you have a very good point about her developing more muscleature (sp?). Fortunately, I have Wintec, so I can adjust the tree width.Dr. O & Teresa: She's not bending to the inside at all. She has her shoulder inside, and her head turned completely outside with her nose in the air. My trainer says she is off balance, but says I'm pretty much doing things well (of course, my mare could be as sensitive as Christine suggested, which means I need to improve my technique even more). She does not appear to have stiffness or lameness in the legs, but rather the rest of the body. The fact that she lunges with the proper bend and then has a counter bend when I'm on her back means (to me) that I am definitely a suspect. However, my trainer does not see me leaning too much to the inside, although I did have a tendency to do so in the past. Christine - your idea to have a more experienced rider try it out is a good one. My trainer only started working with her 3 weeks ago, and has wanted to see how I work with her, but I think now she'd be willing to ride her for herself. I hope this information helps a bit more. As I said, she did fine on the trail and when lunging, but has a bending issue even when going "long" in the arena (i.e. not in circle formation). Again I thank you all for your help and will keep you posted. Dawn |
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 6, 2000 - 1:25 pm: Perhaps your instructor has some saddles you can try, too.You are lucky with the Wintec - you can resize the tree for about $20! I'd really fiddle with the saddle first. |
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Posted on Friday, Apr 7, 2000 - 10:36 am: I'd fiddle with the saddle first, too, but are you aware that changing the gullet plate in the Wintec leaves lots of things unchanged, according to the model you have? The 500 AP--I have one-- only gets the gullet over the withers changed & about 1/3 back toward the cantle. The new Isabell Dressage model changes down the length of the tree. (I have one of those, too.) If the saddle is bridging, I'd think it would still bridge even though you changed the gullet plate. Fortunately, you can have the things restuffed if necessary. Wintecs do fit a lot of different horses, but there's always the odd horse out there.There's quite a difference in Wintecs from model to model--tree shape, seat size (even if you order the same size seat, you'll get some differences), etc. Good luck. |
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Posted on Friday, Apr 7, 2000 - 4:04 pm: Hello Kathleen,I am going to pull mine and your discussion out from this one to prevent the intertwined messages from being confusing. I will place them in this forum under: Does the Rooster Bring the Sun. (I hope you still have your sense of humor.) DrO |
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