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  Discussion on Seizures and toxins?
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New Member:
Artinres

Posted on Thursday, Mar 16, 2006 - 9:12 pm:

Help! I have a 13, soon to be 14, year old arabian gelding. He has been observed having strange spells for 6 months now. These are not frequent, the best we can tell, maybe once a week and then not any for a few weeks. It is hard to tell how many he has, since we cannot watch him all the time. He spins a few times around to the right in these spells. Lately, I was able to see an entire episode and it is more of a seizure activity. He starts by turning his head to the right and holding it high. His ears, neck and head tremble slightly and then he starts rapid blinking. He braces his front legs and will spin in a tight circle, like a reining horse. Last time, I was holding the reins, since I had just hopped off at the first sign, and he did not spin, probably due to me holding on to the reins. I was prepared to DrOp the reins, in case he pulled hard, but he didn't. This lasted only a few seconds and then he is back to normal again. I've had two vets exam him, and the last one took close to five hours doing a through work-up on him, x-rays of his head, and scoped him. We've done blood tests on him, and he did test positive for EPM, but we all know that might not mean much. Both vets have done the physical exams for EPM and he appears to be normal in every way. Now that we have identified that these are definate seizures, I've been advised to haul him to a vet school for an MRI. I am not in favor of this expensive test, since it is only a diagnostic test and if it is a brain tumor, nothing could be done anyway. One vet recommends putting him on an EPM combo drug treatment for one month to see if that has any effect on the seizures. Not Matrix, but using the antibotic/anti-protozoa drug. (excuse my bad spelling) He also feels that this might be caused by a pituitary tumor or lesion, since it is based near the left ear and might correspond to the spinning to the right.

Here is my question. Could this all be caused by toxins in his feed or pasture? The vets here don't think so, but I noticed that as a reason for seizures on this site. A friend has recommended putting him on a supplement called Dynamite, that is for the immune system, and has helped her arab with a cancerous tumor. So, perhaps an immunity issue as well?

Currently, he is on a daily wormer, since the pastures are small and they are dragged regularily. I didn't know if there can be an over dose situation with that, that could cause a seizure? Also, new hay for us this winter, and we got it about the time this behavior started. It is an oat hay and good quality, but my horse is on the heavy side now, probably due to this hay. He gets Accel, a vitamin supplement, and a little wheat germ oil. He eats very little grain, just a few handfulls of omolene 100 twice a day. He also gets a few alfalfa hay cubes twice a day, and as I said, the daily wormer. He gets fed the right dose per feeding, but we are in a co-op situation and not everyone is as careful as I am about making sure that the horses do not raid the pasture buddies' feed pan. So, anyone comments about this seizure activity? One of the vets has told me that if this progresses and he gets worse, that I would have to put him down. I am NOT there yet and he seems so totally normal right now. He is still very much a fun ride and a great companion for me. We're missing the spring endurance rides in our area, the first on is this weekend, but that is okay, I just want my pony to be okay.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Mar 17, 2006 - 8:06 am:

Welcome Laurie,
Seizures caused by toxins do not tend to be episodic as in your case, so I too would put it low on the list. You could conjecture a past toxic insult that permanently damaged an area that now throws seizures occasionally but an ongoing toxic problem does not seem likely. EPM treatment does seem logical though a long shot and our recommendations for seizure control are in the article associated with this forum.

Pyrantel daily dewormer is not known to cause such but you should be aware of the rapidly developing resistance problem to this product, see Overview of Deworming for more on this.
DrO
Member:
Meggles

Posted on Friday, Mar 17, 2006 - 6:02 pm:

Hi Laurie
Sorry to hear you are having these problems with your boy. I know its very distressing for any owner to see this happening to their animal.

You may have read about my mare on the site, who also has seizures / epilepsy and has done for around three years now. The behaviour you describe in your horse is exactly the same as how my mare started. For the first 6 months, each time she had a seizure, she would stand with her head straight up in the air with her mouth gaping wide for a few seconds before returning to normal. It was so unusual and difficult to describe that after numerous tests without conclusion, I was told that the behaviour was 'mareish'!! Her seizures then progressed to the spinning around backwards in tight circles that you describe, before again returning to normal, and at that point I got in touch with another vet who has been incredibly helpful and supportive.

Unfortunately Meg's seizures have become more serious in that, whilst the head still goes in the air for a few seconds as the first sign, her head is pulled so far back that she stands on her back legs and topples over backwards. She always lands incredibly hard but gets up again after 5 seconds or so and then appears normal, albeit very quiet. She will leave the rest of the herd to stand on her own for a while to recover.

I am lucky that her seizures always happen when she is coming out of rest, usually in the field when somebody turns up to fetch one of the horses in, and they have never happened when I've been handling her. Even if I was riding her, by the very nature of what happens to her, I would have enough time to get off her and move her to somewhere safe. It sounds awful but if you can scream and shout, wave your arms around and make enough noise when they start, often you can stop them in their tracks.

I found after keeping a diary that Meg's seizures are linked to her hormones to a certain degree and so we can control one, in order to control the other. She has around 4 seizures a year still, but is better than she was (used to be every 20 days) and is ridden and otherwise normal. The big risk she poses is to herself which is always a worry but there's little that can be done about that unless she is put to sleep. At the moment, my gut feeling is to keep going, enjoy what we do together and hope for the best.

There's a lady called Helen Weedon who has posted numerous articles on the site who's mare is on Phenobarbitone to control her seizures (this is the same as what humans with the condition take) and she has been treated this way for a number of years. Its not 100% effective but helps Cara a great deal. I would recommend that you email Helen on her private address as she has done an awful lot of research into other horses with the condition. mares and geldings, and how they have been treated - either successfully or not.

Its hard, but the diagnostic tests rarely seem to come up with anything in terms of a cause where seizures are concerned. The best course of action as far as I can see is to start the treatment asap and hope that it works. You can often successfully start on a relatively low dose, which would need to be increased over a period of months or even years.

I wish you all the best with him. He sounds like a lovely horse and a great friend to you. Be sure to update the site as to how you get on and if I can answer any questions you may have, feel free to email me directly, or post onto the site.
Sarah
New Member:
Artinres

Posted on Sunday, Mar 26, 2006 - 6:11 pm:

Hi Sarah,
I would love to find out more about the seizure experiences you've had with your mare, and also possibly with the person you referred to, Helen. I don't think she is part of this posting anymore, though, and I am not sure how to contact either one of you. Thanks!
Laurie
Member:
Cpacer

Posted on Monday, Mar 27, 2006 - 11:19 am:

Probably no comparison but I have a cat with epilepsy, and although it sounds like the horse seizures aren't as violent I just can't imagine how scarey it must be for a creature that big to have one.

My cat's been seizure free with the barbs--was dopey for a while and still had seizures until the drugs got in her system. Our vet thinks they're caused by stress--just wondering if anything new and stressful has come into play since they started???

Anyway, cat/horse = not really the same thing, but my heart goes out to you for having to face it.
New Member:
Upzoo

Posted on Monday, Mar 27, 2006 - 1:38 pm:

We have a 13-year-old thoroughbred gelding, Jake, who has had several seizures (that we know of). His first seizure was nearly three years ago. After a couple more, he was diagnosed with EPM. It is my understanding that epilepsy in horses doesn't start in an adult. Since our horse didn't have seizures until he was 10, the doctor (Dr. Furr) at Leesburgh said there had to be another cause.
Jake never really had any of the usual EPM symptoms - just occasional sweating only on one side, and a tendency to twist his head to the left when trotting (especially when tired). The seizures were the only real symptom.
After two rounds of Marquis, Jake didn't have a seizure for two and a half years, but he had one in early January so we've just finished another month of Marquis. No seizures, but we worry about riding him now.
I hope the meds help your horse!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Mar 27, 2006 - 7:06 pm:

Hello Laurie there are many postings by Helen Weedon on these boards. You could probably find most of them by backing up to the discussion board and perusing them. More specifically you can run a keyword search on discussions by author.
DrO
Member:
Artinres

Posted on Monday, Mar 27, 2006 - 10:27 pm:

Thanks Dr O, I did review Helen's experiences.

Also thanks to Joy about the Marquis/story, first I have heard of the EPM/seizure connection in an actual case, so it gives me a little hope for the EPM meds we are using on my horse now. From the little reading I have done about this, there does seem to be adult onset epilepsy, not just the young horse type. (PS: Leesburg,VA? I live in NC, and I have relatives in Leesburg. It is so beautiful in that area, you are fortunate to live there!)

Dr O, my vet wanted to try the "older" EPM meds, not the Marquis, that is an anti-protozoan and an antibiotic, thinking that the antibiotic might be useful as well. Do you think we should switch to the Marquis at the end of the month? Or, go to the meds for seizures, as outlined in your article?

Thanks, Laurie
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 28, 2006 - 8:01 am:

Though rare there have been seizures that were associated with EPM but rare. Also the Arab breed appears to be a bit predisposed to epileptic seizures. All in all the EPM seems unlikely however if it is treatment is the only way to have a chance at fixing it. The decision of which medicine for EPM you choose depends on your circumstances. We discuss the differences in the medications available individually and in a comparative sense to help you make a decision see, Equine Diseases » Nervous System » Incoordination, Weakness, Spasticity, Tremors » EPM, Equine Protozoal Myeloencephalitis. If following the first month of therapy you are still having seizures then I would recommend you discuss with your vet about trying the epilepsy meds while completing the EPM therapy. After completing the EPM meds you can try to wean down the seizure meds and then will know if it might have been EPM related.
DrO
Member:
Artinres

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 4, 2006 - 12:44 pm:

Dr O,

I have about another ten days left on the EPM meds for my horse, to complete a month of treatment. He is still having seizures, in fact, they might be more frequent. It is so hard to be sure, since he has them so quickly, only about ten seconds are involved and he is totally normal before and after. But, we seem to be seeing more, two in the last three days, that we know of. They do not seem to be more intense, no falling, but he does blink rapidly, put his head up high and backs up or spins to the right. As outlined in your article about seizures, this further puts him in the primary category, with more frequent seizures.

I am definitely not riding now. I will get my vet to put him on the seizure drugs soon, and I have printed out the dosage recomendations from this site for him to consider. He had wanted to try to give him the one month with EPM meds only. He was reluctant to put him on phenobarbitol at that time, but perhaps he will do so now. That would be my only hope to be able to ride him again. Also, I would hate for the seizures to get more intense, where he could possibly injure himself in a fall, or be banned from boarding situations, for fear of fencing or other horses being damaged, etc.

Here is another question for you. A friend told me that she had two years of petit mal seizures after being told she was hypoglycemic (sp?) She wondered if this condition exits for horses? She thought I should get his glucose level checked. His seizures did start when we had a large shipment of oat hay brought into the barn in this past October. He has gotten fat from the hay and limited work, this winter. Probably just a coincidence, but can a hay that is loaded with whole oats, cause his carbs/glucose levels to be out of whack and then cause seizures?

I know I am grasping for straws here, but you never know. I am also considering a move for him, where he would have more access to better grazing, and therefore, less hay consumption.

What do you think of the glucose/hay idea? Do you think a different environment could help in any way? The stress of moving, a new herd, etc might not be good for him, but at this other place, he would be with one other quiet arabian mare, as a companion to her mainly.

Thanks again....
Member:
Canyon28

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 4, 2006 - 1:38 pm:

I would try the pasture situation before going on the other meds. Good quality pasture can work wonders on any horse that has come from a barn or boarding type situation. If you realized the problems started after the oat hay was brought in, I would sure get that test done, especially if they are still feeding it. Hope you make the choice of moving him.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 4, 2006 - 3:31 pm:

Though I do not know of any cases of hypoglycemic seizures in horses we always recommend a CBD and chem profile. However glucose at the times he is not have seizures may not be indicative of his glucose state while having one. Also field chemistries will show a artificial lowering of the blood glucose as it goes down in the tube fairly rapidly if the blood is not refrigerated and the test run fairly quickly. Do you know a diabetic? If you could borrow there glucometer and use it on a place where the skin is clean and the hair is very thin. The face might be ideal but it might startle the horse. This might give you an idea.
DrO
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 4, 2006 - 4:02 pm:

Dr. O,
I am a diabetic, and have been curious, but never thought to ask. What is the normal range for a horse? Humans are 80 to 120.
Just curious.
Alicia
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 4, 2006 - 6:42 pm:

It is very similar in horses Alicia.
DrO
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 5, 2006 - 10:41 am:

So when my EPSM mare's blood sugar came back fasting at 186 (this was a few years ago), and I was worried and my vet wasn't, was I right to be worried? Her diet has now changed and she is much happier. I was very surprised that 186 was considered normal fasting.
Alicia
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Apr 6, 2006 - 7:12 am:

Assuming the fasting was done correctly and given that primary diabetes is very rare this is suggests what is a pretty common problem in horses: secondary diabetes (insulin resistance). There are 2 diseases commonly associated with this: Cushings and Equine Metabolic SynDrOme. Both can be found in the Endocrine Disease Topic.
DrO
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Thursday, Apr 6, 2006 - 11:26 am:

In glimpsing at both, she does not fit either. She is in no way obese. In fact, she is a very hard keeper. Also, she doesn't have the long coat, has never foundered, and is not depressed, etc.
So, I can't see that she could have these.
Doesn't matter, as the cure besides medication is low carb, which I am already doing.
Alicia
Oh, by the way, type 2 diabetes is not always associated with obesity even in humans.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Apr 6, 2006 - 12:30 pm:

Nor in horses Alicia, many advanced cases of Cushings are both thin and IR.
DrO
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Thursday, Apr 6, 2006 - 12:58 pm:

Well, of these symtoms listed
"Common signs of aging in horses are: decreased energy levels, mild to moderate depression, long shaggy coats (hirsutism) that do not shed out, weight loss and muscle wasting, excessive thirst and urination, chronic founder, and excessive sweating."
She has none except the muscle, which was reversed by the change in diet and more regular exercise.
I am wondering if I should get her tested. If so, she would need medicine, it seems. I already do all the good practices, and she is moving to a barn with grass in the next few months too.
Alicia
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Apr 7, 2006 - 8:48 am:

If there are no clinical symptoms that need to be treated with medication why test?
DrO
Member:
Artinres

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 11, 2006 - 2:56 pm:

Dr O,
Another disease possibility has been presented to me, in regards to my horse's seizure activity. That is temperohyoid osteoarthropathy. Do you know what testing can be done for that? He was observed last week in a seizure, where he was perfectly fine one minute, then he tilted his head up to the right, and spun to the right several times, then went back to spin the other way and then he stopped and shook his head several times. He was then normal and resumed grazing. So, I haven't seen the head shaking part before. Any connection?
Member:
Meggles

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 11, 2006 - 3:45 pm:

Hi Laurie
I've never heard of temperoyoid osteoarthropathy but I do recognise the head shaking symptoms with regards to the seizures. When Megan has seizures, sometimes she will head shake briefly afterwards. On the couple of occasions that she has been snapped out of having a full blown seizure (by me screaming and shouting at her usually!) is that some of the symptoms still take their course but in a different way. She doesn't spin or fall but instead stands and nods her head up and down violently as though her head hurts. Her face also trembles all over and she continues to head shake until the episode passes, when she seems to go very tired. She also, when on the verge of a seizure, or when snapped out of one just in time, will flinch at the sound of any noise (however slight i.e. strange voices etc) and throw her head up, again, as though something hurts inside her head. I can only guess it must be like having a very bad headache/ migraine and the headshaking is an attempt to get rid of the sensation. It seems that head shaking can be specifically symptomatic of seizure activity from what I understand.
Sarah
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 12, 2006 - 8:12 am:

We have an article on this disease Laurie at, Equine Diseases » Nervous System » Neurological Conditions Not Covered Above » Temporohyoid Osteoarthropathy & Hyoid Disease which covers diagnosis.
DrO
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