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Heidi Hocker
Member
Username: Heidih
Post Number: 186
Registered: 9-1999
| | Posted on Tuesday, Apr 25, 2006 - 10:01 am: |   |
I'm researching information for a friend on ulcers. I read your article and found this.
Pectin-lecithin
For the past 5 years there has been discussion of pecitin-lecithin feed additives for the treatment and prevention of gastric ulcers in horses. In 1999 a preliminary research project showed a beneficial effect. Then in 2002 a well designed research project did not show a beneficial effect. Now again in 2003 a positive effect has been shown. I think the jury is still out on this one but if you are having trouble controlling ulcers in a horse this might be worth a try, see insert to the right."}
However, there is no insert to the right in the article. Is there a suggested dose for Pectin-Lecithin? How about a source to purchase some? Thanks for your help. |
Heidi Hocker
Member
Username: Heidih
Post Number: 187
Registered: 9-1999
| | Posted on Thursday, Apr 27, 2006 - 9:37 am: | |
Doesn't anyone have any information on this?
Thanks, Heidi |
Nancy S. Kaplan
Member
Username: Redalert
Post Number: 339
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, Apr 27, 2006 - 10:57 am: | |
I am also wondering about this, Heidi! I hope DrO will chime in for us, since no one else seems to have any info!
Nancy |
Alicia Kost
Member
Username: Aannk
Post Number: 616
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Apr 27, 2006 - 12:08 pm: | |
I tried looking it up a few years ago with no luck.
Here is a link that was given to me.
http://www.apotheker-schaefer.de/1405041/
Here are some exceprts from my previous post on it.
"An internet search didn't show up any place to purchase it either. I have a phone number for a Canadian division of BI, but I haven't been able to call them yet. Apparently, this product has been around for 15 years (according to the US office). Not sure if that just means it doesn't work, or if it is just caught up in red tape. I will post after I talk to the Canadian office. "
Good luck!
Alicia |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 15480
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Friday, Apr 28, 2006 - 7:23 am: | |
Hello all,
I went looking for the insert then got distracted. When I get in the office I will make another stab at it this morn.
DrO |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 15487
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Friday, Apr 28, 2006 - 9:51 am: | |
I have it up now.
DrO |
Heidi Hocker
Member
Username: Heidih
Post Number: 188
Registered: 9-1999
| | Posted on Saturday, Apr 29, 2006 - 8:43 am: | |
Thanks for your help DrO. |
Nancy S. Kaplan
Member
Username: Redalert
Post Number: 343
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, Apr 29, 2006 - 10:00 am: | |
DrO and All
What am I missing here? I still cannot pull up any information. The site mentioned by Alicia is not in English, and being an "ugly American", I only speak English, plus, I'm not very computer savy (let's just chalk that one up to being "not computer savy." I'm still very interested in this topic! Can Y'all help? THANKS!
Nancy |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 15507
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Sunday, Apr 30, 2006 - 9:33 am: | |
I am not sure you missed anything Nancy as the site linked to above is not in English. However the information missing from our article on ulcers has been included and is in English.
DrO |
Nancy S. Kaplan
Member
Username: Redalert
Post Number: 344
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, Apr 30, 2006 - 11:22 am: | |
... I'll check the HA site now. Thanks, that is what I was missing!
Nancy |
Nancy S. Kaplan
Member
Username: Redalert
Post Number: 345
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, Apr 30, 2006 - 11:27 am: | |
I just read the info., liked the results, BUT, still wondering how to get it! Did I miss something, again?
Nancy |
Alicia Kost
Member
Username: Aannk
Post Number: 617
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, Apr 30, 2006 - 8:42 pm: | |
The site can be translated, but it is still hard to understand. I tried for a few weeks to find this stuff last year. Basically, everyone but the US has it, and I could not find out how to get it.
Boheringer Inglehiem (this is wrong but it is the same company that makes some vaccines, but the german branch) makes it.
Please let me know if you find it, anyone.
Alicia |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 15510
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 6:41 am: | |
I would check health food stores / sites.
DrO |
Heidi Hocker
Member
Username: Heidih
Post Number: 189
Registered: 9-1999
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 10:28 am: | |
I'll be honest, I was mostly looking for dosages. My friend and I thought we'd try using pectin and lecithin in her horse's diet. I don't know how they do the complex, but lecithin crumbles and dry pectin are available on the natural health care sites. We haven't tried anything yet, she has another appointment with the vet this week and wants to run it by her before she does anything. We haven't been able to find the complex available in the US, only in Germany. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 15516
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 6:34 pm: | |
The dosages are in the article Heidi. Oh I see, because the complex is not defined you don't know how much of each to give. Does the german site give the percentage of each by weight in their product?
DrO |
Heidi Hocker
Member
Username: Heidih
Post Number: 190
Registered: 9-1999
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 - 9:38 am: | |
Hi Dr. O,
I'm sorry, I didn't word that correctly. I found the dosage in the article when you changed it, and am very happy. Now we're going to try to find the pectin and lecithin and start him on it, after he visits the vet on Weds.
Thanks again for your help. |
nicole c
New Member
Username: Nicolec
Post Number: 2
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 - 5:39 pm: | |
I am stumped after reading the postings for a few days on the pectin/lecithin. What is the suggested dosage?
I read that apple pectin/lecithin is used in some of the buffers to slow down gastric emptying, is that correct?
Is that a problem if the horse has normal stools?
thanks! |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 15525
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 - 11:00 pm: | |
The dosage is in the article on gastric ulcers nicole, one page back from this page and I am uncertain how this might effect gastric emptying. If you are looking at human research you have to remember horses naturally have much higher fibers in their diet. In the horse gastric emptying will not effect the consistency of the stools: this is determine by the large bowel.
DrO |
Lee
Member
Username: Paul303
Post Number: 631
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, May 4, 2006 - 1:10 am: | |
Heidi: If you find it, can you post it please? |
Nancy S. Kaplan
Member
Username: Redalert
Post Number: 346
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, May 6, 2006 - 10:18 am: | |
Hey All
On the natural foods site iherb.com, I have found a pectin lecithin mixture that is in a liquid form. I think I'll try it, as I have been unable to find the crumbles on a site that was in English. And, I think maybe the liquid might be easier to give? What have the rest of you come up with?
Thanks, Nancy |
Susan Jeys
Member
Username: Sjeys
Post Number: 30
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, May 6, 2006 - 11:20 am: | |
Bravo! Thank you so much for finding this. I hunted around (I was teaching a class this last week, so didn't have much time) and found a bunch of stuff written in German and managed to get it into my shopping cart on the web site, but then realized USA wasn't one of the places they shipped to. I did that twice on a German site and on German Ebay. I don't speak German, but apparently you can shop in any language  . I am so glad you found this. Calvin is still bothered by them and it makes him unrideable. I will order this today and we'll either see an improvement in behavior or we won't. That's what I like about horses--they show us if it works or not. |
Susan Jeys
Member
Username: Sjeys
Post Number: 31
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, May 6, 2006 - 11:27 am: | |
I can't seem to find this on their page, by looking under pectin lecithin liquid or pectin lecithin. Can you tell me the name of the product? |
Linda Christian
Member
Username: Savage
Post Number: 80
Registered: 5-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, May 6, 2006 - 8:46 pm: | |
This is what I found, is this the same stuff that you guys are talking about?
http://www.boehringer-ingelheim.com/corporate/products/animal_health_horse_10.ht m
Here is the shorter version:
http://tny.se/1oB |
Nancy S. Kaplan
Member
Username: Redalert
Post Number: 347
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, May 7, 2006 - 12:17 pm: | |
Linda
Your site looks much more promising than the one I found, although I have already ordered the other product, which is for humans. I cannot figure out how to order the "Pronutrin" from the site you mention! I would really prefer to try this product since it is labeled for equine use... How do you ORDER the product? I could not find a way to do it!
Oh, Susan, on the iherb site, just enter pectin lecithin on their search located at the bottom of the page, and a whole page of products will come up! I ordered the "Twin lab Emulsified Super Max."
Nancy |
Linda Christian
Member
Username: Savage
Post Number: 81
Registered: 5-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, May 7, 2006 - 3:05 pm: | |
Nancy, I didn't see anything on that page either on how to order something, but I did find US companies with phone numbers, if someone here lives in one of those areas maybe they can call to find out more. I am not sure if they also sell the Pronutrin, but maybe they can shed some light on how to go about it, I am sure that a vet will need to do the purchase though.
http://us.boehringer-ingelheim.com/employment/locations.htm |
Susan Jeys
Member
Username: Sjeys
Post Number: 34
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 2:26 pm: | |
I called the company and we cannot get it in the states; hasn't been through the FDA. Very, very disappointing. The company said that it would be several years before they applied. Too bad, but there is licorice root and pectin lecithin in other compounds that seems to do the trick. We'll see as I'm pursuing both routes. |
nicole c
New Member
Username: Nicolec
Post Number: 4
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 5, 2006 - 9:06 pm: | |
After reading the notes about apple pectin, I decided to purchase a product that has apple pectin in it (U GARD). Maybe this is just a coincidence, but about 10 days later, my horse stopped eating and drinking!! he still had gut sounds, but by the end of the next day he still wasn't eating and the vet gave him fluids. After a very expensive in hospital vet bill, they found a ball of food in his stomach that hadn't digested! They said they'd never seen anything like it before. The only thing that dissolved the ball of food (which looked like a huge rock) was oil..... I don't know that the apple pectin did it, but the product required large doses be given and I cut that amt in half, The product is U Gard. |
Lee
Member
Username: Paul303
Post Number: 662
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jun 6, 2006 - 12:17 am: | |
Wow, this is interesting.....could this have anything to do with the product not containing lecithin? |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 15812
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jun 6, 2006 - 9:25 am: | |
Nicole, did they do surgery to find the mass?
DrO |
nicole c
New Member
Username: Nicolec
Post Number: 5
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, Jun 22, 2006 - 12:47 am: | |
NO- they scoped him. He stopped eating on Sunday and the vet gave him fluids Monday, and he did start eating again. Tues am, he was hurting and had limited gut sounds. Took him to the vet and instead of treating the colic, she scoped him to see if there was an ulcer (this bothered me). That's when she found the "rock". At first she thought it was just hay that hadn't digested, but she tried later that day and it was still there. She was able to break a little off- next am, same thing. So, by now it's Wed and he hadn't eaten or had much to drink - the rock was still there Wed am. THEN, THEN she decided to oil him and did it 2x that day. The rock dissolved. IF she had oiled him originally, I would have save a huge vet bill. But, then, they wouldn't have had the "rock" to talk about. I am not sure it had anything to do with the U Gard, but it was new to his diet.
He has chronic teeth grinding, and yes, he had two tiny pin pricks of red, so she put him on a month of gastrogard- which I think is overkill.....
(Dr. O- she showed me where his stomach had signs of previous ulcers- it looked rough, for lack of a better description- can you tell me anything about that? Do previous ulcers leave damage and should it be treated with gastrogard, etc?)
I think he's a horse that might need something for nerves and hyperacidity on a routine basis. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 15936
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Jun 22, 2006 - 11:19 am: | |
There is not much I can say without seeing the images of the area nicole. I would say it is unusual to find evidence of past ulcers unless they had been particularly severe and left scarring. The after treatment images I have seen show normal stomach lining.
The best prevention for nerves and ulcers in horses is pasture.
DrO |
nicole c
Member
Username: nicolec
Post Number: 7
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, Jan 28, 2007 - 1:19 am: | |
Dr. O- Any update on Pronutrin or other apple-pectin/lecithin products in the US? I did find some apple pectin powder at the health food store-
Could try to do pectin and lectithin separately if we have the dosage.
I have added alfalfa into the diet and it's certainly made my horse more comfortable. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 17636
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Sunday, Jan 28, 2007 - 8:03 am: | |
I have nothing further on pectin and lecithin Nicole.
DrO |
