Site Menu:
This is an archived Horseadvice.com Discussion. The parent article and menus are available on the navigation menu below: |
HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » First Aid » Giving Injections and Anatomy Orientation » |
Discussion on General question re: anaphylactic shock & vaccinating | |
Author | Message |
New Member: Kbarnes |
Posted on Saturday, Jun 3, 2006 - 1:33 pm: Hello.I have been into horses since 1980 - and over the years of involved 'hands on' I eventually began giving my own shots (vax, emergency banamine, penicillin etc). I never give injections to others horses and assume and accept the risks involved in giving them to my own horses. For the past 5 years I have developed a very respectful working relationship with our farm vet. She is supportive of me giving my herd (usually between 5 - 12 horses) their shots (vax, pen, etc). She is also very encouraging and welcomes me being fully participating in procedures (castrations to wound and injury care and even two necropsies) - and being VERY frank and down to earth when it comes to decision making, economics etc. We understand each other well and I am so thankful. Enter my question - A year ago one of my boarders had her vet out to the farm for routine vax on her two horses. I suggest this vet to others wanting to purchase my horses from out of state as a good pre-purch Dr. - I respect him as well but do not have frequent contact to develop a relationship. The boarder was a fairly new horse owner, and to my knowledge was very sensitive about things being 'perfect' and was a bit of a worry wart in general - and did not give her own vax. This vet gave her epinephrine. She kept it in her tack trunk in the barns tack room. Neither of her horses had any known history of allergic type reactions (as the barn owner I should have been made aware of them). In all my years of owning horses and being VERY hands on with the vets I use, epinephrine has NEVER been brought up. And I found it strange this boarder of mine ended up with some. I don't know the how or why of it, but she told me if I ever needed it, it was in her tack trunk(???). So I have some questions (that I never think to ask my own vet when she is around); Would the average, novice level horse owner KNOW when and how to use epinephrine? And for what reasons IS it typically used for (esp if you are not giving your own vax)? In normal circumstances would it be used after the clinet called the vet, while the vet was enroute? If it would be used for something like bug bite induced hives with breathing problems(which we have had that at the farm here before) - why wouldn't something like Tri-Hist be given orally? (which in my case, it was) AND can epinephrine be kept in a NON CLIMATE CONTROLLED environment - what is the shelf life - and should someone like ME have some in my possession? I am reading thru your vax and injection related articles, and skimming thru the forums - And as a last question.... can you sum up the typical 'what can go wrong' in giving injections as far as the IMMEDIATE emergency situations related to things an average horse owner may inject in their horse (like Penicillin, Banamine, vax)? Ah - and one other - is this a myth buster? I had a boarder who swore if you rubbed down an injection site with DMSO right after injection the amount of soreness and problems would be reduced. Sorry so long, didn't mean to ramble quite that much. |
Member: Jojo15 |
Posted on Saturday, Jun 3, 2006 - 3:31 pm: Interesting you started this topic today. i had my exotic vet out this morning, to give vacs to the pot bellied pig and goats, and check my birds. The goats were my worry. Always have been. Never had a reaction though. As i handed my vet all the vaccines. I grabbed the epi. I have it on hand because my mentor goat people say to always have some, if they go down its fast and furious, and you need to give immediately. Vet kind of laughed at me. But i still carried it around from animal to animal. So, i don't like to give my own shots, and have done so in the past for a couple of bloat and acidosis problems in an emergency situation where they would have died if i waited for the vet. But i had the syringe also ready for the epi. They would die before a vet would be able to make it here. So, i have it, never used it.I keep mine in the fridge with all the other meds. and the label says keep dark and keep in 55 to 77 degrees. my exp date is 05 but i'm sure there are ways to keep it good longer. I know that mines been in the fridge the whole time. But i'll probably toss it end of year and order another batch, just in case. |
Member: Amara |
Posted on Saturday, Jun 3, 2006 - 6:08 pm: i've experienced two cases of anaphylactic shock.. once with a horse, and once in myself!... with the horse it happened after my boss was giving a dose of penicillan.. we had given this horse penicillan many times in the past, but she must have nicked a blood vessel... her stall connected directly to our indoor, and my boss just stood back and let her go... from what i have been told and what i have seen, there are only a few seconds in which one can easily give a dose of epi...once this horse "lost it" i doubt there would have been any safe way to get close enough to her to give her a dose.. we didnt have any epi on hand.. we called the vet and he was there within 5 minutes.. fortunately she was fine and by the time he got there she was pretty much over the episode..in my own personal case we also didnt have any epi on hand... i vaguely remember trying to breathe and lots of paramedics...i dont think i was as difficult to handle as the horse tho! i think the moral of the story is that its a great idea to have epi any time you are injecting any foreign substance into a horse, but you definately have to have it right with you as joj does... |
Member: Corinne |
Posted on Saturday, Jun 3, 2006 - 6:32 pm: Melissa glad you were okay and so was the horse in your reactions.I just asked this question to my vet last week during my health cert....he said if you hit a vessel with PCN it's procaine toxicity that is the problem and it can be fatal at which point Epi wouldn't be indicated. Just clarified that with Dr O's article on PCN and it concurs with what the vet said. Is there any treatment for procaine toxicity? My vet seemed to indicate no. I guess always aspirating back to ensure you are not in a vein is the best approach. If you landmark properly then pick a spot on the neck in the lower part of the V and you get no blood return you are not in a vein and chances are you can't knick one. If you get any blood return pull out, get a new needle and try again. A true allergic reaction requires epi but I think that's much different that what happens if you accidently give PCN IV and there is procaine toxicity. |
Member: Corinne |
Posted on Saturday, Jun 3, 2006 - 6:35 pm: JOJ sometimes you can call the manufacturer and see if the expiration date on that lot can be extended. Sometimes they are better for longer but I would only do that after speaking to the manufacturer. |
Member: Jojo15 |
Posted on Saturday, Jun 3, 2006 - 9:26 pm: It's all scary to me. Today when the vet was out, she pulled blood on all my goats. The littlest one only 4 months old she pulled and lost the trickle, moved it and pushed in and pullled some more. i would've sworn she killed my goat by the way she was moving that needle around. But point is she is a vet and i'm not. she knew what she was doing and i don't damn, i was looking at myy girl and wondering when she was going to DrOp. but she didn't sooner or later i am going to have to figure this out since i want to move in the real country. |
Member: Corinne |
Posted on Saturday, Jun 3, 2006 - 11:40 pm: Joj you will get it. Perhaps next time you can ask the vet to describe what she is doing as she is doing it or perhaps volunteer at the local vet clinic for the day.You should try learning to give injections and IVs on humans who talk and scream....that's even scarier! As nursing students starting your first IV and giving your first injection...I sware I can still feel my heart beating out of my chest and that was 10 years ago. Flash forward I can start an IV on myself when teaching techs or in the dark by flashlight and feel (as that's a skill you need as military nurse). Glad that goat did okay. It will get less scarier I promise...although you will still always feel a lump in your thought when procedures are done on those you love. Good Luck! |
New Member: Kbarnes |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 4, 2006 - 9:02 am: Melissa - I was thinking the same thing Corine said at the time I was reading your post. That sounded more like toxicity. I 'had' heard about that before - I recall a vet telling me to be careful when giving pen shots and if something like that happens, it happens so quickly that most people wouldn't even have time to react themselves - I believe she also 'hinted' that there is nothing they can do for it (but I can't remember her saying those exact words).The idea of a horse becoming that out of control is frightening - esp if they get loose. But I am still curious what a typical 'bout' of anaphylactic shock in a horse looks/acts like (and of course any of the other questions I asked above). |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 4, 2006 - 11:35 am: Hello Everyone,Almost all the information requested today plus much more can be found in the following articles:
DrO |